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"Massive" sandbox crowd is a myth

QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?

How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...

Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).

Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."

Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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Comments

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?

    How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...

    Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).

    Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."

    Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.

    duno, but could that be the reason it is refered to as "niche" game, or rather system, or whatever?

    just a thought ^^

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member

    1. I agree

    2. /popcorn

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?

    How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...

    Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).

    Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."

    Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.

    So now that you are done belittling everyone and their opinion and taste, do you have any arguments besides your "feeling" and the absence of evidence.

    Because the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    image
  • ComanComan Hattem, AKPosts: 2,032Member Uncommon

    There are games for that crowd and one (EvE) is actually pretty big.

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Monroe, NJPosts: 1,707Member Uncommon

    Agreed, if they wanted a sandbox they wouldn't be discussing themeparks games, and would probably be subbed to a sandbox.

    Played-Everything
    Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  • SebaliSebali Staten Island, NYPosts: 392Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid

      As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?

     

    you just prove a point against your point.....there hasnt been a good one in forever. Eve can be considered good. wasnbt my cup of tea. SWG was the 2nd largest MMO out there till WoW hit. but SWG was bug riddles mess(still my fav mmo tho)

     

    name me a good sandbox since SWG/EvE?

  • ComanComan Hattem, AKPosts: 2,032Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sebali
    Originally posted by Quirhid

      As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?

     

    you just prove a point against your point.....there hasnt been a good one in forever. Eve can be considered good. wasnbt my cup of tea. SWG was the 2nd largest MMO out there till WoW hit. but SWG was bug riddles mess(still my fav mmo tho)

     

    name me a good sandbox since SWG/EvE?

    A tale in the desert.

    Wurms Online

  • KingGatorKingGator Tampa, FLPosts: 453Member

    There hasn't been a GOOD sandbox since wow came out and everyone tried to be them.  A good sandbox would be hard to make, the clowns in this industry can't even make good theme parks any more. Themepark mmos are mmo to the lowest common denominator designed for generation "ME".

  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member
    Originally posted by Coman

    There are games for that crowd and one (EvE) is actually pretty big.

     

    Aren't EVE subs less than the "failure" SWTOR? Why the double standard?

  • KingGatorKingGator Tampa, FLPosts: 453Member

    Heard great things about eve, but I don't want to play a game where i am a space ship. 

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member

    EvE has been around for almost a decade and continues to grow in popularity
    ArcheAge and World of Darkness are two of the most highly anticipated MMOs on this site
    Minecraft has a huge following
    Elder Scrolls and Fable series have sold millions
    Second Life is still going strong with millions of accounts

    Thats just off the top of my head.

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?

    How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...

    Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).

    Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."

    Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.

    You are right. There isnt some Massive Sandbox fanbase. At least when you compare it to the Themepark fanbase.

    That has always been obvious.

    However, there is a good number of Sandbox fans out there. Id harzard a guess of 500k-1mill.

    Thats not exactly "niche". That would be a damned good subscriber base for any Dev company willing to put in the effort to create something great for that demographic

     

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • StizzledStizzled Springfield, MOPosts: 1,264Member Uncommon

    People don't like shitty sandbox games anymore than people like shitty themeparks. That's why the majority of devs who have 'tried' have failed. They simply didn't, or couldn't, put in the effort required and brought out a shitty game.

     

    Another problem facing the sandbox crowd is that no one can seem to agree on what a sancbox actually is. There are too many small niche groups. And, recently only the FFA full loot niche has been targeted by the indy crowd, which is another reason for the failures, that's not what every sandbox fan wants.

     

    The fans are there, the games are not.


  • Dahkot72Dahkot72 Pelham, ALPosts: 261Member
    Originally posted by DannyGlover

    EvE has been around for almost a decade and continues to grow in popularity
    ArcheAge and World of Darkness are two of the most highly anticipated MMOs on this site
    Minecraft has a huge following
    Elder Scrolls and Fable series have sold millions
    Second Life is still going strong with millions of accounts

    Thats just off the top of my head.

     

    EVE I think is the prime example of this.

    As sandbox as it gets , it's one of the few mmorpg's that has grown subs over the years and not immediately lost subs after launch.

  • SebaliSebali Staten Island, NYPosts: 392Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Coman
    Originally posted by Sebali
    Originally posted by Quirhid

      As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?

     

    you just prove a point against your point.....there hasnt been a good one in forever. Eve can be considered good. wasnbt my cup of tea. SWG was the 2nd largest MMO out there till WoW hit. but SWG was bug riddles mess(still my fav mmo tho)

     

    name me a good sandbox since SWG/EvE?

    A tale in the desert.

    Wurms Online

    trid wurm. didnt like it.

    never tried tail in the desert.

    but considering their combined subs are less than...well most anything....I would say the public doesnt consider them "good"

  • stormwaltzstormwaltz [-]Posts: 32Member

    There are enough sandbox players to more-than-fund two sandbox MMG demos on Kickstarter:

    Pathfinder Online

    Embers of Caerus

    Those are just demos. The people funding them don't even get a finished game for their investment.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by Chrisbox

    Agreed, if they wanted a sandbox they wouldn't be discussing themeparks games, and would probably be subbed to a sandbox.

    The choice of Sanbox games out are limited and even then most are as bad, if not worse than the Themeparks

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • Ashen_XAshen_X PLEASANT HILL, CAPosts: 363Member
    Originally posted by Sebali
     

     

    name me a good sandbox since SWG/EvE?

    Define, "good," in a non-subjective manner ?

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member

    DayZ is taking over right now and we get a thread like this lol

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • KingGatorKingGator Tampa, FLPosts: 453Member

    Dude that sited the ffa full loot crowd is on to something. I'd prefer a sandbox game. I have no interest in a ffa full loot game.  I don't really want a story arch where I am taking part in some massive scripted story. I want to make my own story, kill what I want to kill, just leave me lore and triggered events, not quest arcs.

  • ComanComan Hattem, AKPosts: 2,032Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Psychow
    Originally posted by Coman

    There are games for that crowd and one (EvE) is actually pretty big.

     

    Aren't EVE subs less than the "failure" SWTOR? Why the double standard?

    1. 400K people is a massive crowd. I think it's big

    2. Lets see how much SWTOR has in 9 years

    3. Did I ever say SWTOR failed? I think it is bad, but I think the same about EvE. Not a fan of either. 

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Indeed! I'm calling BS on the notion that there is this mythical mass of players that want a sandbox virtual world MMO. If there was one, I would hear about it, devs would see it, and there would be games for that crowd. As it stands, there's hardly one, and it has been like that for so long that merely saying there hasn't been the right one yet is not going to cut it. Many have tried, many have failed and even if these games were any good they would've showed much more interest from the public, don't you think?

    How can you have a "massive" virtual world when you only have a handful of players to fill it. And how can you get funding to something that has such a small audience. You are doomed to wander from indie game to indie game...

    Admit it. You are to rest of the MMORPG players what LARPers are to P&P role players. "Regular people" snicker at people who play D&D but everyone laughs at LARPers (no offense meant - but they do).

    Ben "Yahtzee" Crosshaw hit the nail in the head: -"Eve players are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."

    Even if some recent themeparks have failed or will fail in your eyes, I'm quite confident in saying that there will be no major shift towards sandboxes of any sort. People still love themeparks - they just don't like shitty games, thats all.

    Sorry to burst your bubble but themepark players are the larpers of the gaming world lol. Sandbox is second only to FPS in popularity. Check out the sales numbers. As far as MMO's go, yeah themepark reigns supreme which is why most gamers have such a negative view about MMO's. They think we are all WoW players. Talking about getting laughed at lol.

     

    In any case, yeah themeparks kind of down there on the list in gaming with FPS and Sandbox at the top. Now if you simply mean MMO's then yes themeparks at the top here. Thats likely only because there has yet to be a big budget AAA sandbox  developed yet. EvE is Niche and not because it's a sandbox.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member

    A person could easily argue 2 things about sandboxes:

    1. No sandbox will occupy the entire sandbox crowd (however small or large it is)

    2. A decent sandbox cannot actually be made.

     

     

    /hide

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • ChrisboxChrisbox Monroe, NJPosts: 1,707Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Psychow
    Originally posted by Coman

    There are games for that crowd and one (EvE) is actually pretty big.

     

    Aren't EVE subs less than the "failure" SWTOR? Why the double standard?

    EVE subs have never left that solid number where its at, and most players have been playing since launch for a reason.   I think you would understand if you actually have had an experience like EVE.

    Played-Everything
    Playing-FFXIV:ARR

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon

    Sure, I agree with the OP. people don't want the freedom of a sandbox game. That is why Skyrim and Minecraft didn't sell well, right?

    Just because no sandbox MMO has sold well untill now, doesn't automatically mean that there isn't enough interest for it. Maybe they are just more difficult to create or the big bucks are just not willing to deviate from what they see as the safe path (themepark).

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