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Who is Responsible for Gear-Based Progression?

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  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

    i've never been in any D&D pen and paper game that i once considered it to be any sort of gear-based progression.  

    i haven't played it though since 2nd edition though so i have no idea what kind of wierd games these kids are playing these days.  i just wouldn't say it started with D&D because i don't think a gear-based progression game is what Gary Gygax created.

    note the word "based" the OP used.  a game may have gear of varying usefulness but not have "gear-based progression" as the OP mentioned.

     

     I never played D&D, I played pretty much everything Paladium though.  While not D&D, those books are pretty similliar in their rules, and were designed to be a more streamline and easier to use ruleset.

    I remember those games as being all about character development.  You had magic items and item quality, but that wasn't what defined your character.  Even Rift, which had robots and mecha like armor, was still about character progression and not what gear I had.  I never had a player get a new Glitter Boy that had better stats, they had the same Glitter boy suit until it either got destroyed or was beyond repair and they were able to actually buy a new one. 

    The first time I remember playing an RPG that was focussed on getting better gear to improve my character was actually in games like Zelda, and some really early D&D PC games that did really bad jobs of translating the rules and always had you finding new weapons and armor as you played through the game.

    I couldn't imagine playing a table top game that had me roleplaying a sword and armor, instead of a character that I that I controlled and developed over the course of many years.  That's what mmo's that are all about gear progession feel like to me.  Like I'm playing an RPG, but instead of a character, I'm looking after gear. 

    Maybe that's why so many people call them "toons" instead of calling them characters today?  You level a character, you just slap gear on a toon.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    I remember those games as being all about character development.  You had magic items and item quality, but that wasn't what defined your character.

    How much of the damage you do on a single hit comes for skills/abilities, and how much from gear?

    The further that equation is balanced toward the right, the less important the character is.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
    it is amazing how fast players are to respond with "gear dropped on death? count me out!"

    I do not remember the first game I saw with indestructible gear, but it was certainly early in the MUD era.

    Far enough back that we forget it's not solely an issue of who's manly enough to lose his best armor.  Your change may have come about from companies not enjoying spending staff time on consulting with players ever time a favorite weapon was lost or broken.  Can you imagine trying to play that game at current MMO staffing ratios (player to GM of 50:1, 500:1)?

    Modern MMOs seem to be completely unwilling to carry sizable CE staffs.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • UngoHumungoUngoHumungo Middletown, OHPosts: 518Member
    Originally posted by username509

    Dungeons and Dragons the board game.

    *Facepalm* as an avid D&D'r ......I groaned at you calling it a board game

     

    Dungeons and Dragons....by mattel

     

    There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?

  • HokieHokie Vancouver Wa.Posts: 1,063Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Professor78
    Originally posted by username509

    Dungeons and Dragons the board game.

    This is probably the bases for any fantasy mmorpg .

    Not exactly right.

    Dungons and Dragons the board game was very, very different than AD&D, which was the pen and paper table top game.

     

    *Athough D&D 4E seems to have more in common with the old board game than it does with the spirit of 1st edition.

     

    Oops but back on topic - Id say the blame lays with consoles and The Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy. Being that D&D the board game was never that popular.

     

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by graggok
    Originally posted by username509

    Dungeons and Dragons the board game.

    *Facepalm* as an avid D&D'r ......I groaned at you calling it a board game

     

    Dungeons and Dragons....by mattel

     

    Not by mattel...by Wizards of the Coast.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • HokieHokie Vancouver Wa.Posts: 1,063Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by graggok
    Originally posted by username509

    Dungeons and Dragons the board game.

    *Facepalm* as an avid D&D'r ......I groaned at you calling it a board game

     

    Dungeons and Dragons....by mattel

     

    Not by mattel...by Wizards of the Coast.

    LOL!

    I think we're showing our age. We know Icewhite is young(er) and graggok and me are oldies. image

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Hokie!

    I think we're showing our age. We know Icewhite is young(er) and graggok and me are oldies. image

    I'm turning 50 this year. :(

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • HokieHokie Vancouver Wa.Posts: 1,063Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Hokie!

    I think we're showing our age. We know Icewhite is young(er) and graggok and me are oldies. image

    I'm turning 50 this year. :(

    Well gratz on 50 :)

     

    I think me and gragg are taking about 'Dungon!' which was a loot drop game. It wasnt called D&D the board game, but it was a dungeon crawl with the same monsters as (red box) D&D, made by TSR and released by Mattel.

    Kinda of like the (mom and dad friendly) family version of D&D. That could be played instead of a game of Monopoly.

     

    But technically you are right, D&D the board game was released by WoC.

     

     

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    I remember those games as being all about character development.  You had magic items and item quality, but that wasn't what defined your character.

    How much of the damage you do on a single hit comes for skills/abilities, and how much from gear?

    The further that equation is balanced toward the right, the less important the character is.

     It depended on the game honestly.  Rift was a futuristic sci-fi/ magic game, so some characters were skills while others were skills that related to piloting a mecha or using certian weapons. 

    Heroes unlimitted was mostly about skills, unless you played a bionic type character or something like a gadgets character that relied on equipment.  A gun would do a certian amount of damage, based on the gun and possibly ammo used, but the ability to hit always came down to the characters skills.  You didn't get a gun that gave you +1 initiative/ +1 attacks per melee/ +1 damage + 2d6.  If it was a .357 with hollow tips it did as much damage as every other .367 with hollow tips.

    Palladium was a fantasy, D&D style game, with magic items.  Even it was about your character though.  A sword that had +10 damage was useless if your character didn't have skills to use it properly. 

     

    Never played a PnP RPG that was about gear.  Always about the character.  If your items are more import than your character, then what are you really roleplaying? 

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    Never played a PnP RPG that was about gear.  Always about the character.  If your items are more import than your character, then what are you really roleplaying? 

    That is a damned good question.

    But one that makes developers unhappy--a gear-based design is easier and cheaper.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    Never played a PnP RPG that was about gear.  Always about the character.  If your items are more import than your character, then what are you really roleplaying? 

    That is a damned good question.

    But one that makes developers unhappy--a gear-based design is easier and cheaper.

     Sad but true.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by lifesbrink

    Is it EQ?  Or does this go back farther?  It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all.  So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?

    E. Gary Gygax.

     Exactly.

    +1 boots of escaping

    I have boots of escaping:  http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/911308/

  • dopplemmodopplemmo toronto, ONPosts: 31Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by graggok
    Originally posted by username509

    Dungeons and Dragons the board game.

    *Facepalm* as an avid D&D'r ......I groaned at you calling it a board game

     

    Dungeons and Dragons....by mattel

     

    Not by mattel...by Wizards of the Coast.

    Originaly, it was by TSR [Tactical Studies Rules] which was bought by Wizards of the COST in 1997.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    UO tried things differently (no gear based progression) and was vastly out numbered in popularity by EQ.

    The majority seem to enjoy chasing after pixels and levels/stats instead of simply enjoying emergant game play.

  • HokieHokie Vancouver Wa.Posts: 1,063Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by lifesbrink

    Is it EQ?  Or does this go back farther?  It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all.  So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?

    E. Gary Gygax.

     Exactly.

    +1 boots of escaping

    Negatory.

     

    I dont think there was ever a D&D or AD&D module release that was was about gearing up your character. There was some about retreaving and item of power, but you never went on adventure/quest/dungeon-crawl because you were hoping that the boss dropped a flameberge +4 of life stealing.

    They were about finding out why the caravan disapeared, or rescuing the madiens fair from the band or orcs, or finding out why the farmers on the edge of the county are vanishing, or just hearing about an old ruin with rumors of a ruby the size of your hand still hidden there somewhere. It was about story.

     

    It was never about- hey guys I heard this band of orc may have a bastard sword +2, you want to go clean them out and see? Or hey did you hear that group of wild elves that are attacking people in the forest may have Boots and Cloaks of the Evenkind, be perfect for our thief, want to kill them and find out?

     

    *When I DM'd, I was very stingy with magic items. Because they were supposed to be rare and magical. Which is why I prefered the Greyhawk setting over the Forgotten Relms setting, medium low magic vs medium high magic.

     

    If your olnly experience with AD&D/D&D is a gear grind, I feel sorry for you, youve had a bad DM.

    Because you can get that in WOW brought to life on your computer screen.

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    UO tried things differently (no gear based progression) and was vastly out numbered in popularity by EQ.

    The majority seem to enjoy chasing after pixels and levels/stats instead of simply enjoying emergant game play.

     Uhm....

    Perhaps you didn't hear, UO was a FFA pvp and full loot MMO.  Up until shortly after EQ released and they introduced an expansion that created a copy of the world that had no pvp (which coinsidentally drove people to EQ pvp servers.).  Not to mention, EQ was a full 3d MMO, and we all know that graphics are shinies and people like shinies.

    And you still chased after pixels in UO, unfortunetly a lot of the times the pixels being chased also happend to be other players. 

     

    I'm pretty sure that EQ was the first MMO that was all about PvE.  Meridian 59 which came out before UO, and UO were both FFA full loot pvp. 

    EQ was the game that tried things differently.   EQ showed that more people would play a game that was PvE only, and not PvE and PvP without consent.

  • ArkainArkain Tampa, FLPosts: 490Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

    i've never been in any D&D pen and paper game that i once considered it to be any sort of gear-based progression.  

    i haven't played it though since 2nd edition though so i have no idea what kind of wierd games these kids are playing these days.  i just wouldn't say it started with D&D because i don't think a gear-based progression game is what Gary Gygax created.

    note the word "based" the OP used.  a game may have gear of varying usefulness but not have "gear-based progression" as the OP mentioned.

     

     I never played D&D, I played pretty much everything Paladium though.  While not D&D, those books are pretty similliar in their rules, and were designed to be a more streamline and easier to use ruleset.

    I remember those games as being all about character development.  You had magic items and item quality, but that wasn't what defined your character.  Even Rift, which had robots and mecha like armor, was still about character progression and not what gear I had.  I never had a player get a new Glitter Boy that had better stats, they had the same Glitter boy suit until it either got destroyed or was beyond repair and they were able to actually buy a new one. 

    The first time I remember playing an RPG that was focussed on getting better gear to improve my character was actually in games like Zelda, and some really early D&D PC games that did really bad jobs of translating the rules and always had you finding new weapons and armor as you played through the game.

    I couldn't imagine playing a table top game that had me roleplaying a sword and armor, instead of a character that I that I controlled and developed over the course of many years.  That's what mmo's that are all about gear progession feel like to me.  Like I'm playing an RPG, but instead of a character, I'm looking after gear. 

    Maybe that's why so many people call them "toons" instead of calling them characters today?  You level a character, you just slap gear on a toon.

    This, +5 to wis.

    image
  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    My 2 cents:

    Sure there are pre-MMO origins, but what the OP is wondering about is the switch from levels being main source of progression to gear being the main source.  This is something that really only started with leveling MMOs that had expansion-pack cycles - the level cap now marks the minimum amount that even the most casual player is expected to achieve between expansions, while the gear progression is used to create the endgame treadmill that continues on after the level cap, but is immediately made obsolete by the next level expansion.  I might be wrong, but this is something that I feel has only been consciously formalized recently ... for a long time it seemed to just happen by accident as developers scrambled to add new challenges and rewards.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    UO tried things differently (no gear based progression) and was vastly out numbered in popularity by EQ.

    The majority seem to enjoy chasing after pixels and levels/stats instead of simply enjoying emergant game play.

     Uhm....

    Perhaps you didn't hear, UO was a FFA pvp and full loot MMO.  Up until shortly after EQ released and they introduced an expansion that created a copy of the world that had no pvp (which coinsidentally drove people to EQ pvp servers.).  Not to mention, EQ was a full 3d MMO, and we all know that graphics are shinies and people like shinies.

    And you still chased after pixels in UO, unfortunetly a lot of the times the pixels being chased also happend to be other players. 

    I'm pretty sure that EQ was the first MMO that was all about PvE.  Meridian 59 which came out before UO, and UO were both FFA full loot pvp. 

    EQ was the game that tried things differently.   EQ showed that more people would play a game that was PvE only, and not PvE and PvP without consent.

    Actually UO stopped being what you say in 2000 due to the Trammel / Felucca split.

    They only kept 1 server the old fully Felucca only (Siege Perilous)

    So in Trammel, it was just as FFA and Full Loot as EQ PvE servers were.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    UO tried things differently (no gear based progression) and was vastly out numbered in popularity by EQ.

    The majority seem to enjoy chasing after pixels and levels/stats instead of simply enjoying emergant game play.

     Uhm....

    Perhaps you didn't hear, UO was a FFA pvp and full loot MMO.  Up until shortly after EQ released and they introduced an expansion that created a copy of the world that had no pvp (which coinsidentally drove people to EQ pvp servers.).  Not to mention, EQ was a full 3d MMO, and we all know that graphics are shinies and people like shinies.

    And you still chased after pixels in UO, unfortunetly a lot of the times the pixels being chased also happend to be other players. 

    I'm pretty sure that EQ was the first MMO that was all about PvE.  Meridian 59 which came out before UO, and UO were both FFA full loot pvp. 

    EQ was the game that tried things differently.   EQ showed that more people would play a game that was PvE only, and not PvE and PvP without consent.

    Actually UO stopped being what you say in 2000 due to the Trammel / Felucca split.

    They only kept 1 server the old fully Felucca only (Siege Perilous)

    So in Trammel, it was just as FFA and Full Loot as EQ PvE servers were.

     I'm pretty sure that's what I said?

    You said stuff, then I said stuff to point out that your was stuff inacurate, and then you said the same stuff I said.  Are you pulling reverse psycology on me?  I don't understand what you're trying to do here.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hokie
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by lifesbrink

    Is it EQ?  Or does this go back farther?  It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all.  So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?

    E. Gary Gygax.

     Exactly.

    +1 boots of escaping

    Negatory.

     

    I dont think there was ever a D&D or AD&D module release that was was about gearing up your character. There was some about retreaving and item of power, but you never went on adventure/quest/dungeon-crawl because you were hoping that the boss dropped a flameberge +4 of life stealing.

    They were about finding out why the caravan disapeared, or rescuing the madiens fair from the band or orcs, or finding out why the farmers on the edge of the county are vanishing, or just hearing about an old ruin with rumors of a ruby the size of your hand still hidden there somewhere. It was about story.

     

    It was never about- hey guys I heard this band of orc may have a bastard sword +2, you want to go clean them out and see? Or hey did you hear that group of wild elves that are attacking people in the forest may have Boots and Cloaks of the Evenkind, be perfect for our thief, want to kill them and find out?

     

    *When I DM'd, I was very stingy with magic items. Because they were supposed to be rare and magical. Which is why I prefered the Greyhawk setting over the Forgotten Relms setting, medium low magic vs medium high magic.

     

    If your olnly experience with AD&D/D&D is a gear grind, I feel sorry for you, youve had a bad DM.

    Because you can get that in WOW brought to life on your computer screen.

    Did you ever read through the original giant series modules?  they had swords of giant slaying for the characters to find to gear them up.  Look at the amount of treasure in most of the modules.   Look at the treasure for monsters as well.  E.G.G had lots of loot in his game even though he was against monty haulism.  Perhaps your DMs didn't give out a lot of it, but if you look at the old products with HONEST review, you will see it.

  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member Common
    Originally posted by username509

    Dungeons and Dragons the board game.

    Sorry, not DnD.  The only requirement at mid to high level to is to have some sort of magic item or weapon.  From that gear is very encounter specific.  Ghost touch weapons for undead, various situation potions,  adamantium weapons for constructs, silver for werewolves.  

    Can't say in 30 years I've sat there and said "i don't have 20 toughness, won't be able to go in this dungeon, lets grind imps until i can get the money ..."

    Remember, situational, giant slaying will only hurt giants and because these items were random most encounters are designed to be defeated without them.  

    IN the ealry editions, they would specify party make up, but that was phased out in 2e.  

    Dnd has always been designed so a DM, like me, can give out magic items on a rare basis and the game and encounters are still balanced for the level you are dming.  A typical group will upgrade their armor 2 maybe 3 times over hte course of a campaign.  And ifthey don't have high AC they figure out other tactics.  

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dontadow
    Originally posted by username509

    Dungeons and Dragons the board game.

    Sorry, not DnD.  The only requirement at mid to high level to is to have some sort of magic item or weapon.  From that gear is very encounter specific.  Ghost touch weapons for undead, various situation potions,  adamantium weapons for constructs, silver for werewolves.  

    Can't say in 30 years I've sat there and said "i don't have 20 toughness, won't be able to go in this dungeon, lets grind imps until i can get the money ..."

    Remember, situational, giant slaying will only hurt giants and because these items were random most encounters are designed to be defeated without them.  

    IN the ealry editions, they would specify party make up, but that was phased out in 2e.  

    DND didn't have toughness.  You certainly didn't have the crazy gear stats.  For you 30 years experience I suspect that wasn't enough.  You think in terms of how things are today and say dnd wasn't exactly like that.  OP was asking where IT STARTED.  You needed better gear to take on those tough monsters, such as improved armor class and the crictical savings throws bonuses.  Look at the amount of hit points the origianl bard class could have.  IIRC, my original bard had 132 hit points.

     

  • EdeusEdeus Stamford, CTPosts: 506Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    The majority seem to enjoy chasing after pixels and levels/stats instead of simply enjoying emergant game play.

    I personally don't mind this, as long as it's relevant to the content.  IE there are super hard world bosses that REQUIRE you to be uber geared and skilled in order to kill.  Like in FFXI, I was on a never ending quest for better gear because I wanted to down the world dragons, or on WoW I was on a never ending quest because I wanted to beat the Lich King one day. 

     

    The never ending quest for better gear is tolerable with those goals in mind, but lacking any of those goals, I can't stand it. 

     

    /my 2 cents.

    image

    Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

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