This, exactly. Or more precisely, D2. Blizzard looked at their own franchise and said "Hey, people are willing to farm for gear for hours on end just to get minor advancements so they can go higher and farm more gear!" They added that to WoW and now everyone does it.
At least, that is how it seems.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I believe it was mostly the DII > WoW progression. I don't know if other games had it this way, though, but DII was the first game I've seen that was a dedicated conveyor loot game.
Sadly, loot got "balanced" and simplified in MMORPG's.
I've got the feeling somethign gone amiss here. Are we talking gear progression like "any gear upgrade" or gear progression like item Gates and 90% of my characters combat stats come from gear?
Cause i see no point in discussion the first one, as for the second one, i think i can nail it down to my personal first contact with elemental stats attached to weapons which made me able to damage monsters at all (Rangarok online?) and as for overall stat contribution versus a naked character in WOW?
Can't say if a better quality armor set made all the difference in EQ, it certainly didn't in Lineage1.
My personal take is 2002~is where character growth beyond the item grind stopped.
I think the Ark of the Covenant made the Hebrews OP. I blame that.
Or the Greeks, with gods distributing gear to their favorites.
Or King Arthur and Excalibur.
As far as RPGs are concerned, Dungeons and Dragons set the example, and most others followed.
I don't think the problem is gear-based progression. To me, the issue is that the gameplay of most games changes abruptly at "endgame". Players have a wider selection of activites while leveling, and the open world matters more. Once level cap is reached, gameplay is boiled down to grinding instances for gear. Instance-based play, whether PvE or PvP, is literally the only meaningful way to develop a character. That's the real problem, in my opinion.
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
If you went all the way back to Final Fantasy, you already have gear progression. I doubt that you forgot about the Crystal Gears, the Ultima Gears, and what about all the special weapons. If i remember correctly there was also the Genji Gears that lets you attack twice, and Red Ribbons that makes you immune to all status effects, thats Gear Progression.
PS: if you went beyond games, you also have King Arthur and his Excalibur, Zeus and his lightning, Jesus and the Spear of Destiny, Cup of christ as the Holy Grail, the sword of Masamune, they are all special gear that defined the wielder.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Let's take this back to the roots of RPG's. Dungeons and Dragons had Epics, and Heroic classes. This was the ultimate gear and character grind, but that wasn't what it was all about. You could actually die. You could spend years in a dingy basement somewhere with some friends on the weekends, and it would all be over in a roll of the dice. Usually you could be resurrected, but if the party wiped, or other circumstances made it impossible then that was it. Now the next generation has shifted the focus of the game from comradery and imagination to a mindless advancement agenda. It's lack of imagination, and backbone that is to blame for the decline of the RPG.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
hold on didn't you just say in another thread that because a guy played his PnP character like a rogue in WOW you tried "desperately" to kill him? yeah that is definitely inspiring comradery.
I think its Blizz with their color coding for for the mentally chalenged.
I almost posted "Diablo had it way before WoW" but then recovered from the brainfart and realized my error. Thought I'd share that for the group's amusement.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
hold on didn't you just say in another thread that because a guy played his PnP character like a rogue in WOW you tried "desperately" to kill him? yeah that is definitely inspiring comradery.
Yes after an hour of him murdering every npc in the game, and ruining the game for the rest of us I tried to explain how what he was doing was hurting the game. He refused to curb his behavior because apparently he is a troll like many of his generation. So my character who was his business partner in game, but still a US Marshall had to stop him to maintain RP. I tried to look the other way for as long as I could, but the other players were even pressuring me to stop him. I tried to help him and explain to him that this is a game about accomplishing a goal througha story, but he felt it would be"funny" t kill everyone we met. So if you don't see why he had to be dealt with then I am afraid you are in the same boat as he is.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
E. Gary Gygax.
Exactly.
+1 boots of escaping
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
i've never been in any D&D pen and paper game that i once considered it to be any sort of gear-based progression.
i haven't played it though since 2nd edition though so i have no idea what kind of wierd games these kids are playing these days. i just wouldn't say it started with D&D because i don't think a gear-based progression game is what Gary Gygax created.
note the word "based" the OP used. a game may have gear of varying usefulness but not have "gear-based progression" as the OP mentioned.
hold on didn't you just say in another thread that because a guy played his PnP character like a rogue in WOW you tried "desperately" to kill him? yeah that is definitely inspiring comradery.
Yes after an hour of him murdering every npc in the game, and ruining the gmae for the rest of us I tried to explain how what he was doing was hurting the game. He refused to curb his behavior because he is a troll like many of his generation apparently. So my character who was his business partner in game, but still a US Marshall had to stop him to maintain RP. I tried to help him and explain to him that this is a game about accomplishing a goal througha story, but he felt it would be"funny" t kill everyone we met. So if you don't see why he had to be dealt with then I am afraid you are in the same boat as he is.
see thats different all you said is he played his character like a rogue in WoW.
i've never been in any D&D pen and paper game that i once considered it to be any sort of gear-based progression.
i haven't played it though since 2nd edition though so i have no idea what kind of wierd games these kids are playing these days. i just wouldn't say it started with D&D because i don't think a gear-based progression game is what Gary Gygax created.
note the word "based" the OP used. a game may have gear of varying usefulness but not have "gear-based progression" as the OP mentioned.
You are right. It wasn't ever about the progression. It was about improvement for a lot of people though, and making the best build you could. I never got into that aspect of it though. It was alway sabout the story and adventures. I always prefered Call of Cthulhu to D&D anyway.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Opinion only, I'd source the earliest versions of what this model it would eventually become on DOOM. But there were hints of it in many, many games released even earlier than that.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
note the word "based" the OP used. a game may have gear of varying usefulness but not have "gear-based progression" as the OP mentioned.
Thats a techincality...and one that cannot actually be applied to any game.
There is no "gear based" progression...but there is progression that requires better gear.
For it to be what you are trying to call it would mean there are no levels, and the only way to progress in any way is with better gear...so, you need to chose to leave out what you are trying to say is what the OP is talking about...
D&D created gear progression and it was in the first rule set. Even the first true MMORPG, NWNO back in 1991 had gear progression...the better your gear, the easier the hardest mobs were and the easier it was to win in PvP.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
This is probably the bases for any fantasy mmorpg .
Monty Haul, a famous habit of bad dungeon masters.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Is it EQ? Or does this go back farther? It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all. So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?
They are one in the same. One progression is based on levels, gained by experience, which in turn upgrades your stats in order to take on tougher content. The other system does the SAME THING but in gear format to upgrade your stats. The fact you CAN'T tell that they are one in the same seems like a problem. Some systems combine the two, others weigh one above the other.
Perhaps you should check out some books on game design, algorithms, and progression.
lol we called it "Monty Haulism" when the players were running around d&d games with vorpal swords at lvl 4.
Exactly. You needed to collect those artifacts so you could reach the ultimate character abuse, slaying the entire content of Guys You Aren't Even Supposed To Fight.
(Monty Haul peaked after the release of Deities and Demigods. Teenagers eager to show you their character sheets at Gencons inevitably carred a dozen or so artifacts they weren't supposed to be able to get. And regaled you with tales of how they took down Odin in three rounds (or whatever).)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Everyone missed the point of the OP. We know gear progression has been around forever, he was talking about how IMPORTANT and MANDATORY it is now vs the old days. In other words, it's WEIGHT has increased.
Everyone missed the point of the OP. We know gear progression has been around forever, he was talking about how IMPORTANT and MANDATORY it is now vs the old days. In other words, it's WEIGHT has increased.
right, but he's trying to find where it happened.
it was a gradual process brought on by both the demand of the consumer to give us permanent things that we could hold on to like gollum and his ring coupled with the developers finding a way to use that permanence and sense of accomplishment to give us long arduous quests to get such items.
in short i believe it was the consumer who is responsible for gear-based progression.
a scenario i've seen here several times is where someone comes to the forums with an idea for a game that has very little importance placed on gear progression where players drop loot upon defeat. it is amazing how fast players are to respond with "gear dropped on death? count me out!"
Well, no, it's stadardization has increased; it tends to be more codified, databased, tracked in detail. Fixed loot tables. Set drops. Predictability.
Minmaxing combined with predictably set outcomes...yep, that's WoW.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
i've never been in any D&D pen and paper game that i once considered it to be any sort of gear-based progression.
i haven't played it though since 2nd edition though so i have no idea what kind of wierd games these kids are playing these days. i just wouldn't say it started with D&D because i don't think a gear-based progression game is what Gary Gygax created.
note the word "based" the OP used. a game may have gear of varying usefulness but not have "gear-based progression" as the OP mentioned.
I never played D&D, I played pretty much everything Paladium though. While not D&D, those books are pretty similliar in their rules, and were designed to be a more streamline and easier to use ruleset.
I remember those games as being all about character development. You had magic items and item quality, but that wasn't what defined your character. Even Rift, which had robots and mecha like armor, was still about character progression and not what gear I had. I never had a player get a new Glitter Boy that had better stats, they had the same Glitter boy suit until it either got destroyed or was beyond repair and they were able to actually buy a new one.
The first time I remember playing an RPG that was focussed on getting better gear to improve my character was actually in games like Zelda, and some really early D&D PC games that did really bad jobs of translating the rules and always had you finding new weapons and armor as you played through the game.
I couldn't imagine playing a table top game that had me roleplaying a sword and armor, instead of a character that I that I controlled and developed over the course of many years. That's what mmo's that are all about gear progession feel like to me. Like I'm playing an RPG, but instead of a character, I'm looking after gear.
Maybe that's why so many people call them "toons" instead of calling them characters today? You level a character, you just slap gear on a toon.
Comments
largely true but it wasnt until MUDs and MMOs where your skills and levels do not change (if you are level capped)
only your gear changes
EQ2 fan sites
This, exactly. Or more precisely, D2. Blizzard looked at their own franchise and said "Hey, people are willing to farm for gear for hours on end just to get minor advancements so they can go higher and farm more gear!" They added that to WoW and now everyone does it.
At least, that is how it seems.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I believe it was mostly the DII > WoW progression. I don't know if other games had it this way, though, but DII was the first game I've seen that was a dedicated conveyor loot game.
Sadly, loot got "balanced" and simplified in MMORPG's.
I've got the feeling somethign gone amiss here.
Are we talking gear progression like "any gear upgrade" or gear progression like item Gates and 90% of my characters combat stats come from gear?
Cause i see no point in discussion the first one, as for the second one, i think i can nail it down to my personal first contact with elemental stats attached to weapons which made me able to damage monsters at all (Rangarok online?) and as for overall stat contribution versus a naked character in WOW?
Can't say if a better quality armor set made all the difference in EQ, it certainly didn't in Lineage1.
My personal take is 2002~is where character growth beyond the item grind stopped.
I think the Ark of the Covenant made the Hebrews OP. I blame that.
Or the Greeks, with gods distributing gear to their favorites.
Or King Arthur and Excalibur.
As far as RPGs are concerned, Dungeons and Dragons set the example, and most others followed.
I don't think the problem is gear-based progression. To me, the issue is that the gameplay of most games changes abruptly at "endgame". Players have a wider selection of activites while leveling, and the open world matters more. Once level cap is reached, gameplay is boiled down to grinding instances for gear. Instance-based play, whether PvE or PvP, is literally the only meaningful way to develop a character. That's the real problem, in my opinion.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
If you went all the way back to Final Fantasy, you already have gear progression. I doubt that you forgot about the Crystal Gears, the Ultima Gears, and what about all the special weapons. If i remember correctly there was also the Genji Gears that lets you attack twice, and Red Ribbons that makes you immune to all status effects, thats Gear Progression.
PS: if you went beyond games, you also have King Arthur and his Excalibur, Zeus and his lightning, Jesus and the Spear of Destiny, Cup of christ as the Holy Grail, the sword of Masamune, they are all special gear that defined the wielder.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Let's take this back to the roots of RPG's. Dungeons and Dragons had Epics, and Heroic classes. This was the ultimate gear and character grind, but that wasn't what it was all about. You could actually die. You could spend years in a dingy basement somewhere with some friends on the weekends, and it would all be over in a roll of the dice. Usually you could be resurrected, but if the party wiped, or other circumstances made it impossible then that was it. Now the next generation has shifted the focus of the game from comradery and imagination to a mindless advancement agenda. It's lack of imagination, and backbone that is to blame for the decline of the RPG.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
hold on didn't you just say in another thread that because a guy played his PnP character like a rogue in WOW you tried "desperately" to kill him? yeah that is definitely inspiring comradery.
I almost posted "Diablo had it way before WoW" but then recovered from the brainfart and realized my error. Thought I'd share that for the group's amusement.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
E. Gary Gygax.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Yes after an hour of him murdering every npc in the game, and ruining the game for the rest of us I tried to explain how what he was doing was hurting the game. He refused to curb his behavior because apparently he is a troll like many of his generation. So my character who was his business partner in game, but still a US Marshall had to stop him to maintain RP. I tried to look the other way for as long as I could, but the other players were even pressuring me to stop him. I tried to help him and explain to him that this is a game about accomplishing a goal througha story, but he felt it would be"funny" t kill everyone we met. So if you don't see why he had to be dealt with then I am afraid you are in the same boat as he is.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Exactly.
+1 boots of escaping
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
i've never been in any D&D pen and paper game that i once considered it to be any sort of gear-based progression.
i haven't played it though since 2nd edition though so i have no idea what kind of wierd games these kids are playing these days. i just wouldn't say it started with D&D because i don't think a gear-based progression game is what Gary Gygax created.
note the word "based" the OP used. a game may have gear of varying usefulness but not have "gear-based progression" as the OP mentioned.
see thats different all you said is he played his character like a rogue in WoW.
You are right. It wasn't ever about the progression. It was about improvement for a lot of people though, and making the best build you could. I never got into that aspect of it though. It was alway sabout the story and adventures. I always prefered Call of Cthulhu to D&D anyway.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Opinion only, I'd source the earliest versions of what this model it would eventually become on DOOM. But there were hints of it in many, many games released even earlier than that.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Thats a techincality...and one that cannot actually be applied to any game.
There is no "gear based" progression...but there is progression that requires better gear.
For it to be what you are trying to call it would mean there are no levels, and the only way to progress in any way is with better gear...so, you need to chose to leave out what you are trying to say is what the OP is talking about...
D&D created gear progression and it was in the first rule set. Even the first true MMORPG, NWNO back in 1991 had gear progression...the better your gear, the easier the hardest mobs were and the easier it was to win in PvP.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Monty Haul, a famous habit of bad dungeon masters.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
They are one in the same. One progression is based on levels, gained by experience, which in turn upgrades your stats in order to take on tougher content. The other system does the SAME THING but in gear format to upgrade your stats. The fact you CAN'T tell that they are one in the same seems like a problem. Some systems combine the two, others weigh one above the other.
Perhaps you should check out some books on game design, algorithms, and progression.
lol we called it "Monty Haulism" when the players were running around d&d games with vorpal swords at lvl 4.
Exactly. You needed to collect those artifacts so you could reach the ultimate character abuse, slaying the entire content of Guys You Aren't Even Supposed To Fight.
(Monty Haul peaked after the release of Deities and Demigods. Teenagers eager to show you their character sheets at Gencons inevitably carred a dozen or so artifacts they weren't supposed to be able to get. And regaled you with tales of how they took down Odin in three rounds (or whatever).)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Everyone missed the point of the OP. We know gear progression has been around forever, he was talking about how IMPORTANT and MANDATORY it is now vs the old days. In other words, it's WEIGHT has increased.
right, but he's trying to find where it happened.
it was a gradual process brought on by both the demand of the consumer to give us permanent things that we could hold on to like gollum and his ring coupled with the developers finding a way to use that permanence and sense of accomplishment to give us long arduous quests to get such items.
in short i believe it was the consumer who is responsible for gear-based progression.
a scenario i've seen here several times is where someone comes to the forums with an idea for a game that has very little importance placed on gear progression where players drop loot upon defeat. it is amazing how fast players are to respond with "gear dropped on death? count me out!"
Well, no, it's stadardization has increased; it tends to be more codified, databased, tracked in detail. Fixed loot tables. Set drops. Predictability.
Minmaxing combined with predictably set outcomes...yep, that's WoW.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I never played D&D, I played pretty much everything Paladium though. While not D&D, those books are pretty similliar in their rules, and were designed to be a more streamline and easier to use ruleset.
I remember those games as being all about character development. You had magic items and item quality, but that wasn't what defined your character. Even Rift, which had robots and mecha like armor, was still about character progression and not what gear I had. I never had a player get a new Glitter Boy that had better stats, they had the same Glitter boy suit until it either got destroyed or was beyond repair and they were able to actually buy a new one.
The first time I remember playing an RPG that was focussed on getting better gear to improve my character was actually in games like Zelda, and some really early D&D PC games that did really bad jobs of translating the rules and always had you finding new weapons and armor as you played through the game.
I couldn't imagine playing a table top game that had me roleplaying a sword and armor, instead of a character that I that I controlled and developed over the course of many years. That's what mmo's that are all about gear progession feel like to me. Like I'm playing an RPG, but instead of a character, I'm looking after gear.
Maybe that's why so many people call them "toons" instead of calling them characters today? You level a character, you just slap gear on a toon.