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With all the problems GW2 dodge sounds like it has, I wish AN would just use a similar dodge mechanic like Tera does.
Originally posted by Czanrei With all the problems GW2 dodge sounds like it has, I wish AN would just use a similar dodge mechanic like Tera does.
id rather developers come up with there own ideas instead of just copying and pasting other mmos ideas
::cough::star wars the old republic::cough::
Oh, it works well. We are discussing its perks, only. Most of the time, it works exactly as intended, and it adds a lot of depth to the combat. But, as expected, it does need tweaks. It's a Beta, after all.
Dodging in GW2 has no "problems", it works fine and I personally prefer it to the Tera version.
Most of the percieved "problems" actually come from a balance problem between melee and ranged. Melee just need a survivability boost.
If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.
what dodge problems?? for me dodge seem work very smooth, i didnt see any problem on BW and i did dodge a lot
Originally posted by MMOExposed Yes or no,,, do you agree with anything I just said? Seem more like you are ranting here, simply to disagree with me for the sake disagreeing with me.
Uh, no, I'm correcting the core of your argument, which is fundamentally flawed because you don't understand basic mechanics.
It's like if somebody's whole moon base plan depended upon surviving off the bountiful supplies of moon cheese as the staple of your diet.
If I say that you should probably think about another plan to get food, I'm hardly ranting, or disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing.
Originally posted by Meowhead ... It's like if somebody's whole moon base plan depended upon surviving off the bountiful supplies of moon cheese as the staple of your diet. If I say that you should probably think about another plan to get food, I'm hardly ranting, or disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing.
Wallace and Gromit hereby declare you an impediment to progress. Moon cheese happens to be delicious, especially on crackers.
Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by timeraider melee roll more becuz of stamina.. ever thought about the fact that melee runs with amazingly heavy armor which will probably crush their spine if they roll? XD but they are atm really busy trying to balance out melee/ranged, it isnt that easy that 1 mechanic is to blame...it will take some time before getting close to balanced. atm arenanet alrdy announced they would see if they could implement some survival tactics at melee without changing either the difficulty or advantages over other professions.. but well see..its only beta so :P
what arenanet need to do (and they already say will do) is to make bosses DE atack more frequently ranged guys. your parry mechanic suggestion dont make any sense, the objective isnt to be always on melee range, reason why you can change weapon.
if you notice 90% of bosses atack are on melee range, if they change for 75% melee / 25% ranged (yes, melee always need to have the big % because they have much better DPS compared ranged guys) atacks and add some warning for the biggest boss skill the problem end. the warning already exist but is very hard to see sometimes.
melee guys need to learn that GW2 is all about hit and run, if you want to stay on spot always on melee you are playing wrong and this game isnt for you...but seem you didnt learn how GW2 work.
this game dont have tanks and isnt suppose to have, why make a tank mechanic if this game dont want to have tank guys????
Well I mean if you dodge roll into through an aoe you will get hurt and it makes sense. You need to time em properly. And you do move away faster if you dodge roll.
"but seem you didnt learn how GW2 work."
alot of people dont know how other games work also
"oh im standing in this fire and died,but instead of saying im a idiot who died while standing in the fire.im going to blame it on my screen not showing me in the fire"
Originally posted by CrunkJuice2 "but seem you didnt learn how GW2 work." alot of people dont know how other games work also "oh im standing in this fire and died,but instead of saying im a idiot who died while standing in the fire.im going to blame it on my screen not showing me in the fire"
Crunk have you even played GW 2 yet?
I swear to God I thought you said you didn't play it.
I remember asking this but never got around to seeing the response if any.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I found dodging a bit frustrating, especially since we did not have any Ctrl/Alt/shift - keyboard modifiers integrated like we've always had in GW1. ....I tended to rely on a knock-back attack (from my longbow) a lot more often than dodging for interrupting or radidly repositioning the PBAOE damage before it could take place. I used dodging a lot more often to escape a fight faster than running allowed, just like in DCUO.
Maybe it shouldn't grant immunity, especially not to Ranged weapon users. But it should definitely reduce the damage that Melees take and certain Pets should also be programmed to do it so they're not as squishy either. Overall, it defnitely needs more work if it's truly going to be a core component to the game. And they should really consider making a different Default keyboard setup for it as well since the majority of people who I heard from, disabled the Double-Tap default because it caused them to roll way too often on accident. (It's especially awful on Jump-Maps and can cost you an immense amount of silver in repairs from falling deaths if you leave it on by default).
PS: standing in fire in Gw1 without even realizing it happened constantly b/c the graphic indicators were a joke. You had to instead constantly tab-target between different Mage mobs to see which one was casting and you had to read the spell's name to know what was being casted. If it was a spell you were unfamiliar with, you had to Wiki it to find out if it did AoE or not. The last major Content update in Gw1 added AoE targeting to several skills that are used by 60% of all Elementalist mobs in the game who did not previously have AoE functions on those skills and this has made several chapters 2-3x harder for Hero/Henchmen parties than they used to be....
Originally posted by p_c_sousa Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by timeraider melee roll more becuz of stamina.. ever thought about the fact that melee runs with amazingly heavy armor which will probably crush their spine if they roll? XD but they are atm really busy trying to balance out melee/ranged, it isnt that easy that 1 mechanic is to blame...it will take some time before getting close to balanced. atm arenanet alrdy announced they would see if they could implement some survival tactics at melee without changing either the difficulty or advantages over other professions.. but well see..its only beta so :P
Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by p_c_sousa Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by timeraider
I can't speak for 1 on 1, but melee are absolutely essential for WvW (or massive online battles). I can't tell you how many times I wished more people would play melee when our side was holed up in a keep under siege in Warhammer and Daoc. With nothing but ranged on your side, all you can hope to do is hang out on the walls all day and fight to a standstill. That gets pretty boring after awhile. But with a large group of melee on your side, you can punch a hole in the offense (scattering them to the winds in the process) and drive them back. It's always most fun when you have a good balance of range and melee in RvR (or WvW, in this case).
Ok, I was experimenting with this last BWE and I found it inconsistant and reported it as a bug.
IF I rolled away before the red circle showed up and I was IN it at all when the effect went off, I got hurt every time, one time damage.
IF I rolled as soon as I saw a red circle, sometimes I got hurt, sometimes I did not, mostly it seemed reletive to how far away from the center of the circle I was when I started, but I could not confirm that. BUT when I did take damage it was as if I stood there, DoT ticks.
I also noted that I took more damage the closer I was to the center, which is not the way I was told it works... so I reported that as well.
IF I rolled INTO a red circle before it appeared, I took damage most of the time, but not every time, one time, no DoT ticks.
This damage WAS greater when I was closer to the center of the effect. Again, not what I was told should happen.
I reported that as well.
IF I rolled INTO a red circle after it appeared I took no damage until the roll animation stopped. Every time. I took DoT ticks as soon as the animation stopped until the red circle went away. However, it was the same amount every time, no matter where I moved to in the circle...
There is some mechanic here that they are not telling us I suspect.
Originally posted by MMOExposed You are pretty much exposing the issue here. Why play Melee if ranged is better? Some people like to play Melee because that interest them more than ranged classes in rpg. But when ranged exceed Melee in terms of quality, there is nothing left for Melee to do other than switch over. Melee fighters tend to die in Melee range near hard hitting creatures, which makes it harder to Rez them compared to ranged fighters. A skilled ranged fighter is greater asset than a skill Melee fighter. And my parry idea does make sense. Have a party bar similar to Dodge bar. Each time you get hit in Melee range, the bar goes down till empty. Parrying prevents attack from doing more than 33% of your max HP in damage. Once it depletes, it will slowly start to recharge so it can be used again. Basically this is a passive mechanic to prevent npc from doing too much damage to Melee fighters. Ranged doesn't need this, since they aren't in Melee range to begin with. Hit and run may work well for ranged, but Melee still has animation locks. Movement can interrupt these skills. Don't forget many heals can't be casted while moving. This is another pro ranged argument here.
Ranged is not better. It's easier and safer, perhaps, but does less damage, has less utility, and from a pve perspective, is less likely to get a mobs attention. Which means you can hang back all you want in pve, and while you're keeping your distance your teammates might be getting murdered. In pvp, ranged classes will find the substantial number of shutdowns and controls melees have to keep them in their place.
Melee fighters die in melee range of a creature you say? ASTOUNDING. Brilliant observations aside, have whoever picks the mob up after that person kite the mob away from the corpse, and rez him. rinse and repeat. Use some tactics. A skilled ranged fighter and a skilled melee fighter are equally valuable, although often in different situations.
Your parry bar idea is useless. Keep in mind all of the active blocks/evades/etc melee already have. Animation issues aside, I found once I got used to the timing of an enemy and knew how to play I got hit very seldomly. And died even less. As a mesmer. A clothie with a sword. My only concession will be that mobs need to give better warning to melee players that a big hit is about to come through. It's hard or impossible to see sometimes.
All melee skills with animation locks have them for good reason. Take blurred frenzy or whatever the heck it's called, the Mesmer sword #2. Does a butt ton of damage. I remember being annoyed when I first tried it, because I was locked in the animation, and moving would break me out of the attack. So I had to sit there. Then I stopped and read how the ability worked, and realized I was invulnerable when it was animating. So what did I so? Learned to time using that ability with enemy alpha strikes, soaking their big shots while doing a ton of damage. Are they about to do another? I can use my 5 (pistol) to stun them. Or I can roll out of the way. I found quickly that I could rotate between roll, stun, and blur to prevent most damage form coming in. In a tight spot? I swapped to GS and used my 5 to aoe kncokback. That cought time for my defensive abilities to cool off. Back to 1hs and keep murdering.
I'm not saying melee is perfect the way it is, but I AM saying that understanding game mechanics makes it A LOT easier than people think.
Originally posted by Satarious Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by p_c_sousa Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by timeraider
Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by Satarious Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by p_c_sousa Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by timeraider
that was because you were alone which will ofcourse not be of any effect. He is referring to large group of melee players. I can confirm this because in my experience of last BWE melee players would always push ranged professions back since it is their "instinct" to retreat when they are in danger, all you need is a good amount to inflict fear.
I really don't know what's the deal with melee in GW2. My general conclusion was that it has no feedback whatsoever. You have no way to know an attack is coming unless it's already there, and there are lots of leftover MMO effects where mobs auto-face too fast, move with you too fast, hit you while hitting air. That doesn't merge with twitch combat very well.
They tried to plug twitch combat elements into what is originally a pseudo-turn-based (literally) paradigm of standard fare MMORPG combat. I don't think Arena.net consulted other melee combat games... I believe that's why it feels so clunky. It's just a really primitive version of melee combat where they decided to stick in dodge and see what happens. I don't think they even have proper hit detection (i.e., reading where a sword went). I applaud them for trying to stick even that little in an MMORPG, I suppose, I heard that stuff is heavy on servers.
I've played plenty of games with complex melee combat (Mount&Blade, Gothic/Risen, Demons' Souls, Blade of Darkness). They could take quite a while to master but there was rarely any confusion on how, or why, you got hit. Definitely not if you fought the same kind of monster over and over.
The first enemies to kill in Demons' Souls, the "ultra hard unforgiving game", are really intuitive to adapt to and soon enough you could kill them without getting hit (of course, later you'd meet some "Oh God wtf is this, why!? I'm going back to world 1." guys). Heck, I even got to kill the tutorial boss (two-shots you). DS and GW2 twitch mechanics are somewhat similar. DS also has wide rolls as a large part of avoiding damage, especially if you're on a class that doesn't use shields. Same applied for Risen, for that matter. I had no trouble dodging, whether by roll, sidestep, or circling, in either game.
In GW2, I attempted to practice melee combat on worms in the Charr starting area. After spending probably like an hour on the worms and trying to kill them without getting hit I met no success (I did try on some other mobs but I had a Ranger at the time and I mention the problem with Ranger in tha paragraph below). In fact, I had this strange scary feeling that I'll never get a hang on that combat no matter how much I tried. There's something seriously broken with feedback in the GW2 combat system. I believe it's one of these, or a combination of these (I may be wrong on some accounts because, as I said, the system has no feedback, IMO. Twitch combat in an MMO is a new thing yet the game takes no effort to tell you what part of it is still MMO and what part is twitch).
Problem 1: automatic attack of skill 1 when you're in range. Who's stupid idea was this? You have an attack that exposes you ON AUTO? And it does different thing each time, to boot? Are you nuts? That would be a death sentence in any of the games I listed. You added twitch combat, you remove this rubbish. It doesn't hit until I tell it to hit. Don't even get me started on the Ranger sword 1 chain, that was just terrible, it literally forces you into the animation if you're too close. I hope this is disablable somewhere. This really kills dodging because you can't dodge until the attack animation is over and even then dodging while your char is wildly flying around...
Problem 2: no punishment on missing/being hit. Missing/being hit doesn't mean squat aside from the element of being in an animation. In most proper melee games, missing is exposure. You missed, I roll to the right, I hit you while you're still facing where I used to be with your hand outstretched. I miss, same thing happens. GW2 version: "Whack?" "Whack!" "Roll!" "Big deal. Whack." GW2 has nearly instant return on attacks for both player and enemy. The other bad thing about this is that I have very delayed realization of when I actually got hit. This is a bad feedback situation. The only way for me to know I got hit is see my red numbers pop up... it's very, very difficult to notice otherwise. In other games, when you get hit it's so painfully obviously you're very quick to link that to a certain monster animation or w/e. GW2 is like "wait, I got hit? WTF?"
Missing/recoil mechanics in Demons' Souls (1:30):
Notice how muh you are punished for doing something wrong, like missing, getting hit. Explosure on bad shield block. Getting hit multiple times in a row. Also notice how if you can get in a good position, you get rewarded by, say, a long chain of attacks that they can't handle.
Problem 3: auto-facing on mobs, lack of facing help for the player. Facing is one of the ways to control melee combat in games.
DS lets you lock on an enemy and then the game lets you move around while still facing them. This is really helpful, especially against singular targets, and especially with precision weapons such as spears. The facing is not instant, though. But it's invaluable if you are doing a lot of moving that changes your facing direction. A roll in GW2 does just that, you roll and you're facing God knows where and then have to mouse turn yourself (ironically, this IS instant).
Auto-facing on mobs doesn't seem very consistent in GW2. I kept trying to figure out how it works. It seems there's no instant auto-facing present in most MMORPG's, but nevertheless I saw some mobs do 90 degree turns, while others turned much slowly. It also seems circle-strafing is more useful than dodging because circle-strafing doesn't activate their auto-facing while dodging does.
From this video:
Look at 0:56-0:58 (yes, it's that short. You will probably have trouble catching it). Holy mother auto-facing Batman! That's like, what, 100+ degrees in a split second? And he attacks right after!? What kind of dodging can you possibly have in a game where a mob auto-faces 100 degrees with an attack??? (instant, no less) When switching targets, to boot? So much for team play or w/e.
The other battle you can watch from 3:36 on. This is what most combat should look like (well, sort of). So this guy has these slow attacks which are dodgeable (this doesn't seem to be the case of any mobs I fought in the Charr starting area. They all have much faster attacks with untraceable animations (like the lizard above, anyway). I can has slower mobs for newbs???). He also doesn't do instant attacks. He's readable, he's predictable. In fact, he probably needs more stuff or he will get whacked to death...
(and notice the player gets hit all day. "Skilled" PvE, my ass)
Problem 4: controls.
I really haven't played any game where I felt a double tap roll is a good idea. It's always awkward to double tap a key like that while doing something else, it's always going to be a delay in reaction time. I strongly prefer a system where you can aim the dodge with your mouse and then click ONE button somewhere to roll in that direction, and the double tap remains for secondary rolls such as side or back (the main roll is diagonal). Or, I don't see anything wrong with a roll in the direction you're walking (similar to Shift + move mechanics in some games). Why the effing double tap? So outdated. Like trying to strafe with '<' and '>' buttons in DooM... if it was a button press I'd just put it on one of my extra mouse buttons and be happy.
I find this worth bolding because this is my chief personal experience and frustration with the roll system. They seem to roll you farther than you need them to in toe to toe combat. When I roll, I disengage 90% of the time because I simply roll very far. I don't need to disengage, I just need them to miss and un-face me, but I want to stay in melee range so I can hit them again. Instead, I roll too far, gain absolutely no advantage, and then have to get back, by which time they can launch their pseudo-instant attack animation again anyway. I found nothing to be gained by rolls in many situations, I just circle strafed instead. Rolls seemed far more useful on my ranged guy, or to get out of special attacks. Also on big mobs since roll distance keeps you in melee range.
Problem 5: damage by proximity.
Again, this doesn't seem to be the case for all mobs (not the big ass dude up there), but it did seem to be the case for worms and most other mobs. This is true for most MMORPGs out there but is a bit strange for a twitch MMO. If a mob begins an attack animation, you may get hit on it even if you are, say, to the left of the front of the mob, if you're too close to the mob. Particularly, the worm get-out-of-ground attack seemed to work like this. No matter what I do it hits me. Of course, the worm's reaction to you rolling away is to go underground again. This is honestly one of the more annoying mobs in the game and why would you put that in someone's starting area is beyond me.
What I am trying to say is, it seems most mobs have essentially an AoE (or, at least, cone) melee attack that you can't dodge unless you disengage (leave melee range). The reason this is terrible is because it means a close-range side roll is useless since you remain in melee range and get hit anyway. And if you roll any other way you're too far and by the time you come back they restart the attack animation. Catch-22.
GW2 combat is great if you never played any other game with well-implemented melee combat and aren't a huge fan of them. On top of that, it's also counterintuitive in a new and unique way I haven't encountered before. Bad, bad combination. I don't know what the consequence of this will be for the general population, I hope they can forgive and eventually adapt (whatever that means) or we'll end up with some people just plain ragequitting. That, and we may get an overabundance of ranged chars...
^ this is just a very small section from your big write up but you can disable auto attack on #1 skill. Hope that fixes some issues for you
Originally posted by pacov ^ this is just a very small section from your big write up but you can disable auto attack on #1 skill. Hope that fixes some issues for you
OK, that's a big "phew" for me. I figure they have it by default because a lot of people coming to GW2 may be used to auto-attack.
Originally posted by Wolfynsong Anyway, maybe the dodge invulnerability just needs to last longer. I mean, if I can go through a whole BWE without even noticing its effect, it's probably a bit too subtle.
This. If the dodge has any invulnerability at all, to the most basic attacks, I have no idea what the window is. Is it at the beginning? End? Middle? How long is it? (DS gives you a very noticable nearly 100% duration invincibility)
Interesting write-up, Irus. I have some comments:
1 - Comparing an MMO with single player or sharded games is a bit unfair, don't you think? They seem different for you because... they are eminently different from one another. They aim at different things, and thus it is very unrealistic, at this point, to expect a hit-box detection and combat systems of a Demon Souls or Dark Souls on a PC. Even the interfacing is completely different (for good reason).
2 - Classes have lots of resources besides 'walking out of swings'. You have blocks, immunities, slows, stuns, immobilizations, etc that, when timed correctly, are major mitigation for you. I do agree though that there are sometimes, from mob to mob, very little indication of big hits and such. I do expect Anet to improve these cues.
3 - Double tap to dodge: Not necessary. Just bind it to some other key/mouse button and voila.
4 - Hit/Miss exposure: Not entirely true, especially for PVP. I would, time and again, exploit the long animation/windup of some enemies (usually Warriors, Thiefs and Rangers) toland a hit or two. I killed many a Elementalist who thought it was a good idea to stop near me to cast Rain of Fire elsewhere. In PVE, it is surely more of a problem, partly covered by my item 2. Some mobs do have long animation cycles you can take advantage, though.
Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by Satarious Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by p_c_sousa Originally posted by MMOExposed Originally posted by timeraider
Uh... it might be helpful not to take the "one man army" approach whenever you're participating in open world pvp. It's all about team work and tactics if you want to be successful. As a single tank, you will only last literally 1 second against a zerg without heals and support. But if there were 10 melee coordinating attack, watch out! The zerg would have to spread their damage 10 ways or at least not have a focal point to focus all of their energy. A single tank is toast... a group of 10+ tanks can steamroll over just about anything.. especially when there's nothing but cloth wearers in their way. It's like cutting through butter. Believe me.. I've been through enough of these to know that a bunch of tanks is like a Mac truck that is hard to stop, especially if they're getting support from healers and range.
First of all I must say I'm a bit biased towards dodging because I'm used to it from other games. Second, I played only Humans during the BWE, maybe mobs in other areas work differently but I doubt it. Third, I played Elementalist and Guardian (a tiny bit of Warrior). Since the whole talk is about melee and dodging I will focus on my Guardian.
There was a suggestion to increase melee survivability. I disagree. Changes for ALL profs should be avoided at all costs. I played a Warrior up to level 4 and hated it, maybe Wars need a boost, but Guardians certainly not. Arguably they are the most survivable prof and yes they are melee I'm not talking about a ranged Guardian here. I could solo kill Champion Aatxes at the Swamp while being level 12 (they are 15) all fights were very close, I might fall sometimes but they were all certainly EPIC battles and I want more of those. There is also a vid of a Guardian killing 5 players in structured PVP.... solo, with a Greatsword. No range involved here, pure melee and the survivability is simply incredible.
Alright on topic now. I didn't experience any problems with dodging in the BWE, as I said I'm accustomed to predicting and avoiding attacks but isn't this the whole point of the dodge mechanic? It's not like a "new" way to add some dodge to your character like the old 10% evade or 5% block of other games. If it was as easy as just pressing a button it wouldn't make much sense, dodging should require some skill, at least in my opinion.
More specific: The opponents with "Power Attack" (Centaur Warriors) or "Knockback" (Ettins) or "Charging Attack" (Aatxes) or "Massive Attacks" (Skriit) were very easy to dodge. Also the "Poison spitting" of the worms/spiders, the "Gaze" attack of a Bassilisk etc were also easy to dodge (and essential, that poison was annoyingly powerful). Their attacks had a fairly large skill build up (and it was also visible as an effect) and the mobs CANNOT turn at all, while charging their skill, so I could avoid them easily even wihout using "dodge", just moving around them. Heck Ettins are so slow I could move behind them and start stabbing them before they could finish their powerful attack animation and when they did, they simply missed because I wasn't at the attack point anymore (I was attacking them from behind)
A few question for those who had problems with dodging (and some friendly advice):
Did you have problems dodging auto-attacks or their more powerful blows? I generally kept my endurance (or Aegis skills) high enough to dodge (or Block) their powerful blows and didn't bother dodging their auto-attacks which are a lot harder to dodge anyway.
Did you "start" your dodge after the attack went off or while it was charging? If you try to dodge after the charge up you will still take the damage even while you are performing the roll animation. The key here is to dodge when you see the "Charging" effect which is quite visible for the above mobs I mentioned. If you do that you won't take any kind of damage, regardless of how far you rolled. For example to dodge a Bassilisk gaze attack you need to "dodge" while it has that purple glow around it, if it releases the "beam" it's too late to dodge it and you WILL be affected even while on your roll animation. Champion Aatxes have that animation like a bull getting ready to charge before they perform their Charging Attack, easy to observe, easy to dodge. Pay more attention on your screen while playing.
Fights with "normal" mobs can end without me taking any damage at all.
I don't understand why you need to be "invurnerable" when you dodge. When you dodge you evade an attack, needs some timing, if you fail the timing you will get hit. What do you want here? To get invurnerability everytime you dodge so you negate all attacks without having to "time" your dodge properly? I certainly don't want that, I prefer the combat to be about timing, skill and speed.
Finally, remove the "Auto attack on skill 1" it's not very compatible with "dodging"
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Clearly the perfect solution - both in terms of utility and in terms of the MMO-lag issue is to make the Dodge give you the invulnerability buff during its entire animation duration.
This improves the possibility of timing it effectively and entirely deals with the pbaoe issue with bosses - as sideways dodges will be made viable.
Mix that up with better visual indicators for big hits on bosses and hey presto....