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Kickstarter and its "Deceptive Future" an opinion

UnkillableUnkillable Cicero, ILPosts: 109Member

 

I dont understand how anyone could dish out 100 grand for a game that doesnt have any details about ANY game features or systems or models,  screenshots, videos of gameplay, or any other info besides : heres our team they have a lot of experience give us money. ie: Pathfinder Online

direct quote from their kickstarter page:

"Pathfinder Online is a hybrid sandbox/theme park-style MMO where characters explore, develop, find adventure and dominate a wilderness frontier in a land of sword and sorcery. The Pathfinder world is high fantasy in the tradition of epics like The Lord of the Rings, Conan, The Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones.

The Pathfinder setting includes many different classic and modern fantasy elements, from lost cities shrouded in misty jungles to decaying pyramids amidst deserts of burning sands to a fantastic island metropolis where folk from across the world live side by side with all manner of fantastic creatures. The Pathfinder world has a place for any story a player wants to tell."
 
does anyone else find this to be extremely vague? i mean wtf is going on here? honestly? this game has 100k$ pledged into it, and i cant find a screenshot of gameplay. needless to say this worries me a tad.
 

it seems this game and EoC as well, are getting tons of money, based off of proposed ideas and promise of delivery ALONE. this doesnt suit me at all. i personally sparked a thread created by a dev today based off the fact that EoC hasnt even begun to hash out the details behind their games Stat system.

my post over on the Embers of Caerus found  here: http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/1294-EoC-Stat-System-Explained made some waves over there today and ultimatly lead to this post:

http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/349-Random-starter-stats-and-natural-attributes

i offically predict here that the kickstarter site, within 1 year will soon feel like a "pay for promise" site and that much of this "funding" is going to dissapoint people in the long run, leading to people thinking throwing money at ideas is the future of mmo deveolpment, which i hope to god its not. i smell the breath of money, and it stinks.

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Comments

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    I agree.

    I was disappointed that the Pathfinder "tech demo" was not a tech demo at all!

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • UnkillableUnkillable Cicero, ILPosts: 109Member

    anyone care to help me out here? 50 people have looked at this already.

    can anyone put this into perspective for me?

  • UnkillableUnkillable Cicero, ILPosts: 109Member

    seems like a decent way to make money doesnt it?

    and by the time you realize what youve "signed up for" they have new cars, and you have a "shiny ring" that does +3 mmo fail damage.

    jesus god what is going on?

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Unkillable

    anyone care to help me out here? 50 people have looked at this already.

    can anyone put this into perspective for me?

    I don't think the view count reptresents the amount of unique viewers - merely the number how many times the thread has been clicked. I think you can grind it up all by yourself if you want to.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • UnkillableUnkillable Cicero, ILPosts: 109Member

    thats just what i need, another boring grind. haha

    maybe just maybe...

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,215Member Uncommon

    EoC didn't start with a kickstarter page. The game has been slowly developing over some time. While the whole thing may yet collapse it's been around too long involving too many people to be a deception. Pathfinder Online I know nothing about. Kickstarter is basically a charity. I wouldn't invest anything there expecting a return.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • stevebmbsqdstevebmbsqd Orlando, FLPosts: 448Member
    Originally posted by Unkillable

     

    I dont understand how anyone could dish out 100 grand for a game that doesnt have any details about ANY game features or systems or models,  screenshots, videos of gameplay, or any other info besides : heres our team they have a lot of experience give us money. ie: Pathfinder Online

     

    https://goblinworks.com/blog/

    You can find more information if you read there....especially farther down. It talks about the PVE environment they wish to create and lots of other information. Pathfinder itself is the best selling pen and paper rpg at the moment (even more than the current iteration of Dungeons and Dragons). It is based off the old D&D 3.5 ruleset using the OGL. It has a huge following.

  • UnkillableUnkillable Cicero, ILPosts: 109Member

    i dont mean to do this but...

    fanboi's?

    /case in point

  • UOvetUOvet Fort Myers, FLPosts: 514Member

    Only thing I'd throw money at is a DAOC2 or UO2.

  • IrusIrus Wichita, KSPosts: 774Member
    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

    https://goblinworks.com/blog/

    You can find more information if you read there....escpecially farther down. It talks about the PVE environment they wish to create and lots of other information. Pathfinder itself is the best selling pen and paper rpg at the moment (even more than the current iteration of Dungeons and Dragons). It is based off the old D&D 3.5 ruleset using the OGL. It has a huge following.

    Quite some interesting stuff there.

    lol @ "the hammer-and-sickle represents things that come from non-dangerous harvesting."

  • UnkillableUnkillable Cicero, ILPosts: 109Member

    i would like someone to tell me some counter points to the ones ive brought up, along the lines of an intelligent conversation about this topic, i think people might be scared to face the possible reality here. not saying my opinion is truth..but anyone?

    this shit has gotten out of hand.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,479Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Unkillable

    i would like someone to tell me some counter points to the ones ive brought up, along the lines of an intelligent conversation about this topic, i think people might be scared to face the possible reality here. not saying my opinion is truth..but anyone?

    this shit has gotten out of hand.

    Look sweetie, this isn't like ordering a product from Amazon.  It's putting into something, vague as it might be, that might not become completed or in the form you imagine it might be.  Now that you know that ( I didn't say you understand it) you are informed that the situation can be throwing your money away.  That is a truth.  So now you either do something or stop complaining.

  • UnkillableUnkillable Cicero, ILPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Unkillable

    i would like someone to tell me some counter points to the ones ive brought up, along the lines of an intelligent conversation about this topic, i think people might be scared to face the possible reality here. not saying my opinion is truth..but anyone?

    this shit has gotten out of hand.

    Look sweetie, this isn't like ordering a product from Amazon.  It's putting into something, vague as it might be, that might not become completed or in the form you imagine it might be.  Now that you know that ( I didn't say you understand it) you are informed that the situation can be throwing your money away.  That is a truth.  So now you either do something or stop complaining.

    could you be serious?

    re-read my OP and come back to me with something more impacting then "the reason MMO goers are throwing thier money away in desperation for something good to play, has nothing to do with the actual games "being developed"."

    im not against kickstarter in any way (matter of fact i love the site) what i dont like are projects that are collecting money and thousands of dollars for that matter, solely based on the current desperate state of mmo games and the ability to take advantage of people and their money, without giving them proper info about key aspects of their games.

    maybe im an asshole but i think certain things are required before i spend money on a  game...like knowing what the game actually does and details therein.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Unkillable
    seems like a decent way to make money doesnt it?and by the time you realize what youve "signed up for" they have new cars, and you have a "shiny ring" that does +3 mmo fail damage.jesus god what is going on? 

    Actually, they're pretty clear about what they're doing and what you can get if you read the Kickstarter page. They're building a tech demo and the people who pledge get some stuff. More interesting stuff for people who donate more money. They mention several times that it's only a tech demo and very few people will actually get to play the demo.

    *shrug* I'm not sure why this is something that even deserves attention, other than for people who are fans of the Pathfinder P&P game. If a potential donator doesn't like what they get for their $, then they shouldn't donate.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • UnkillableUnkillable Cicero, ILPosts: 109Member

    i guess this thread will forever fall on deaf ears...

    *shrug* indeed sir, indeed.

  • Ashen_XAshen_X PLEASANT HILL, CAPosts: 363Member
    Originally posted by Unkillable
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Unkillable

    i would like someone to tell me some counter points to the ones ive brought up, along the lines of an intelligent conversation about this topic, i think people might be scared to face the possible reality here. not saying my opinion is truth..but anyone?

    this shit has gotten out of hand.

    Look sweetie, this isn't like ordering a product from Amazon.  It's putting into something, vague as it might be, that might not become completed or in the form you imagine it might be.  Now that you know that ( I didn't say you understand it) you are informed that the situation can be throwing your money away.  That is a truth.  So now you either do something or stop complaining.

    could you be serious?

    re-read my OP and come back to me with something more impacting then "the reason MMO goers are throwing thier money away in desperation for something good to play, has nothing to do with the actual games "being developed"."

    im not against kickstarter in any way (matter of fact i love the site) what i dont like are projects that are collecting money and thousands of dollars for that matter, solely based on the current desperate state of mmo games and the ability to take advantage of people and their money, without giving them proper info about key aspects of their games.

    maybe im an asshole but i think certain things are required before i spend money on a  game...like knowing what the game actually does and details therein.

    Nobody is making you spend money on the game.

    The most offensive thing going on in this instance is you going off on how other people spend their money. That, and you assigning motives to people that you don't even know. So, no you are not an asshole for wanting certain things from a game developer before choosing to spend the money that you earned on it. On the other hand being dismissive or belittling others for choosing how to spend their own money on something might qualify you for that pejorative.

    People have been investing money, based on ideas that they find worthy of supporting, for as long as capitalism has existed. If you don't want to invest in some speculative endeavor...don't. It really is that easy.

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,215Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Unkillable

    i guess this thread will forever fall on deaf ears...

    *shrug* indeed sir, indeed.

     As will any attempt at answering you.

    Seriously the information is there, scanty though it may be, and all decisions will be made on that basis.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

    Nothing wrong the pathfinder project.   One it's a well known IP, two its being headed by well known pnp devs, and three they didn't promise you the game at all, if you read what they are giving at each level you would have saw that.

     

    Over all I do agree that kickstarter can be used by bad poeple but that was true before games got big on that site and it was also true with Ebay.  There is always going to be a risk it's up to the customer and kickstarter to weed them out best they can but there will always be a risk.

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • AticusWellesAticusWelles Beverly hills, CAPosts: 152Member
    Originally posted by Ashen_X
    Originally posted by Unkillable
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Unkillable

    i would like someone to tell me some counter points to the ones ive brought up, along the lines of an intelligent conversation about this topic, i think people might be scared to face the possible reality here. not saying my opinion is truth..but anyone?

    this shit has gotten out of hand.

    Look sweetie, this isn't like ordering a product from Amazon.  It's putting into something, vague as it might be, that might not become completed or in the form you imagine it might be.  Now that you know that ( I didn't say you understand it) you are informed that the situation can be throwing your money away.  That is a truth.  So now you either do something or stop complaining.

    could you be serious?

    re-read my OP and come back to me with something more impacting then "the reason MMO goers are throwing thier money away in desperation for something good to play, has nothing to do with the actual games "being developed"."

    im not against kickstarter in any way (matter of fact i love the site) what i dont like are projects that are collecting money and thousands of dollars for that matter, solely based on the current desperate state of mmo games and the ability to take advantage of people and their money, without giving them proper info about key aspects of their games.

    maybe im an asshole but i think certain things are required before i spend money on a  game...like knowing what the game actually does and details therein.

    Nobody is making you spend money on the game.

    The most offensive thing going on in this instance is you going off on how other people spend their money. That, and you assigning motives to people that you don't even know. So, no you are not an asshole for wanting certain things from a game developer before choosing to spend the money that you earned on it. On the other hand being dismissive or belittling others for choosing how to spend their own money on something might qualify you for that pejorative.

    People have been investing money, based on ideas that they find worthy of supporting, for as long as capitalism has existed. If you don't want to invest in some speculative endeavor...don't. It really is that easy.

     I have to agree.  Either you like the concept, and like the bonuses they are offering for donating, and you donate what you can afford and hope for the best, or you don't and move on to a different project to fund or don't fund any at all.

     

    Sure there will be some level of deceit and scamming going on, but that's true for any investment.  Look at all the people who were scammed by Bernie Madoff and lost millions.  There's always going to be some level of risk involved, it's just a matter of whether you can afford and are willing to take that risk.

     

    But donating 5 - 10, 20 or even 50 bucks isn't exactly going to break the bank for most people, they usually get cool things for their donations, and if they are lucky, the product sees the light of day and they get the benefit of enjoying something that likely wouldn't have existed without crowdfunding.   

     

    The only ones that should be worried are the old guard, the MPAA's, the RIAA's, the EAs and Activision/Blizzards.

     

    The more artists that turn to crowd funding the fewer artists that are going to put up with their shark like business practices and being screwed over by them.

  • xmentyxmenty SingaporePosts: 679Member

    I should think if they want to make their own game atleast they can make their own Tech Demo.

    FFS the 3 of them used to be high paid salary men and they cannot fork out 50k between the 3 of them?

    For me they have lost their integrity by asking kickstarter for a Tech Demo.

    And also one of them Ryan Scott Dancey used to be called "the Steve Jobs of MMO Marketing" .

    Bet he can whisper sweet things in your ears just to get more funds.

    Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language :)

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Denton, TXPosts: 3,138Member

    Nah, I think it's more of a case of you being bull headed.

    1) The Goblinworks crew is outlining what they intend to do with the game every two weeks via their blog.

    2) Paizo, Goblinworks parent comapny is a long standing company with legitimate history.

    3) It was explicitly, no matter if you personally read it or not, stated by GW that the KS was for  their tech demo from which they wish to secure even more money that wouldn't be possible via KS.

     

    As far as #3 goes, eveyone who donated knew this and wanted to help GW get that demo done based on the games direction via the blogs. That may not personally be enough for you to pull out your wallet, but it is for others. Just because it's not good enough for you doesn't invalidate it. You just don't believe in their game direction (or have not read it from the sounds of it), which is fine.

    Again, everyone who donated knows this isn't a for sure deal. You only have to look at 38 studios to see that. This said, many of us are tired of the current themepark fad. You may not be, cool. But we are and as so many of you out there who screamed at sandbox gamers to put their money where their mouth is, well, we're doing it.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Unkillable

    i offically predict here that the kickstarter site, within 1 year will soon feel like a "pay for promise" site and that much of this "funding" is going to dissapoint people in the long run, leading to people thinking throwing money at ideas is the future of mmo deveolpment, which i hope to god its not. i smell the breath of money, and it stinks.

    I am hoping that Kickstater starts to become more stringent in what they allow before that happens. Kickstarter is ideal for projects such as Pathfinder Online. Seasoned professionals in the industry with a list of released titles and a solid understanding of what is necessary to develop, market and maintain a project such as theirs in today's market. Unfortunately, as a result of recent projects in the media, we're seeing a lot of crap pour onto kickstarter by people that shouldn't even been allowed in the door.

    There's been a spike of small 'studios' of people with no business plan, no experience and a 'demo' that is little more than a guy running in the one zone they created in whatever free/cheap engine they recently downloaded. Their credentials are often a proud declaration of having played games for x years, as if driving for x years qualifies one as an expert in building a car. These are what will be a detriment to Kickstarter, and I really feel that Kickstarter needs to find a way to put an effective filter in.

     

    Until then, my advice to people interested in backing projects is to look at their industry experience and past releases. A team of people who have actually made and released a commercial game are far more likely to be able to pull it off than people who have never done so before. They are infinitely more likely to do so than people who have no experience in developing and releasing a game yet are clearly unaware of what they do not know yet.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • aionixaionix Fremont, OHPosts: 292Member

    People investing in a product with their own money upsets you?  Why do you even care OP?  Because projects that couldn't be funded other than word of mouth are utilizing mediums like kickstarter to get a chance at being completed?  Because some people have excess money in these hard times because they saved and invested properly are now wanting to spend some of it into something that interests them?

     

    I'm actually confused at what the issue and point of this thread is.  The kickstarter page of this project does not dupe you, doesn't steal your bank account information, nor force you into concentration camps for not paying. 

     

    Point: Who cares what other people want to spend their money on if it doesnt negativly effect yourself.

  • xxpigxxxxpigxx Harlingen, TXPosts: 412Member
    Originally posted by Unkillable

     

    I dont understand how anyone could dish out 100 grand for a game that doesnt have any details about ANY game features or systems or models,  screenshots, videos of gameplay, or any other info besides : heres our team they have a lot of experience give us money. ie: Pathfinder Online

     
    does anyone else find this to be extremely vague? i mean wtf is going on here? honestly? this game has 100k$ pledged into it, and i cant find a screenshot of gameplay. needless to say this worries me a tad.
     
    You are worried because people are investing in a good idea?  It is their money, and quite frankly, they can do with it as they please.  People invest in ideas on a daily basis.  Many ideas fall through, but some do come to fruition.
     
    Welcome to life.
     

    it seems this game and EoC as well, are getting tons of money, based off of proposed ideas and promise of delivery ALONE. this doesnt suit me at all. i personally sparked a thread created by a dev today based off the fact that EoC hasnt even begun to hash out the details behind their games Stat system.

    my post over on the Embers of Caerus found  here: http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/1294-EoC-Stat-System-Explained made some waves over there today and ultimatly lead to this post:

    http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/349-Random-starter-stats-and-natural-attributes

     

    Okay.  I am not seeing the correaltion here.  You asked for more details on the state system on the first thread, and the devs said they have an idea on how it is going to work, but will not release anything until it is tested out, so as not to have to drastically change anything (LINK).
     
    That is logical, and you even said so yourself in the same thread (LINK).
     
    The only waves made were by you leaving in a huff because they did not give you what you were asking for, abnd something that you yourself stated that you are withholding from the public about your IP in developement.
     
    The first thread did not lead to the second thread.  The second thread was made in October of 2011, and your thread was made in May 2012.
     
    The second thread also states that a dev is just randomly musing, and it is not intended to imply that it was going in game.  Perhaps you missed the first sentence of the OP:  "Here is a random, not-related-to-what-we-have-planned Monday discussion topic for you all to mull over (much like the optional permadeath thread)." and the last sentence of the OP:  "To re-iterate, this isn't a planned feature, I just thought it was an interesting theoretical/philosophical discussion topic."
     
     

    i offically predict here that the kickstarter site, within 1 year will soon feel like a "pay for promise" site and that much of this "funding" is going to dissapoint people in the long run, leading to people thinking throwing money at ideas is the future of mmo deveolpment, which i hope to god its not. i smell the breath of money, and it stinks.

    I think you are lashing out after /ragequitting (LINK), because they would not answer a question that you yourself stated that you would not answer concerning your game.

     

    Quite honestly, there are hundreds of kickstarters available.  All based on ideas.  Some ideas are more developed, but they all go back to an idea, and finding people who share that same idea.

     

    And as I stated before, it is their money, and quite frankly, they can do with it as they please.  People invest in ideas on a daily basis.  Many ideas fall through, but some do come to fruition.

     

    Welcome to life.

     
  • RomtimRomtim ParisPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by xxpigxx
    Originally posted by Unkillable

     

    I dont understand how anyone could dish out 100 grand for a game that doesnt have any details about ANY game features or systems or models,  screenshots, videos of gameplay, or any other info besides : heres our team they have a lot of experience give us money. ie: Pathfinder Online

     
    does anyone else find this to be extremely vague? i mean wtf is going on here? honestly? this game has 100k$ pledged into it, and i cant find a screenshot of gameplay. needless to say this worries me a tad.
     
    You are worried because people are investing in a good idea?  It is their money, and quite frankly, they can do with it as they please.  People invest in ideas on a daily basis.  Many ideas fall through, but some do come to fruition.
     
    Welcome to life.
     

    it seems this game and EoC as well, are getting tons of money, based off of proposed ideas and promise of delivery ALONE. this doesnt suit me at all. i personally sparked a thread created by a dev today based off the fact that EoC hasnt even begun to hash out the details behind their games Stat system.

    my post over on the Embers of Caerus found  here: http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/1294-EoC-Stat-System-Explained made some waves over there today and ultimatly lead to this post:

    http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/349-Random-starter-stats-and-natural-attributes

     

    Okay.  I am not seeing the correaltion here.  You asked for more details on the state system on the first thread, and the devs said they have an idea on how it is going to work, but will not release anything until it is tested out, so as not to have to drastically change anything (LINK).
     
    That is logical, and you even said so yourself in the same thread (LINK).
     
    The only waves made were by you leaving in a huff because they did not give you what you were asking for, abnd something that you yourself stated that you are withholding from the public about your IP in developement.
     
    The first thread did not lead to the second thread.  The second thread was made in October of 2011, and your thread was made in May 2012.
     
    The second thread also states that a dev is just randomly musing, and it is not intended to imply that it was going in game.  Perhaps you missed the first sentence of the OP:  "Here is a random, not-related-to-what-we-have-planned Monday discussion topic for you all to mull over (much like the optional permadeath thread)." and the last sentence of the OP:  "To re-iterate, this isn't a planned feature, I just thought it was an interesting theoretical/philosophical discussion topic."
     
     

    i offically predict here that the kickstarter site, within 1 year will soon feel like a "pay for promise" site and that much of this "funding" is going to dissapoint people in the long run, leading to people thinking throwing money at ideas is the future of mmo deveolpment, which i hope to god its not. i smell the breath of money, and it stinks.

    I think you are lashing out after /ragequitting (LINK), because they would not answer a question that you yourself stated that you would not answer concerning your game.

     

    Quite honestly, there are hundreds of kickstarters available.  All based on ideas.  Some ideas are more developed, but they all go back to an idea, and finding people who share that same idea.

     

    And as I stated before, it is their money, and quite frankly, they can do with it as they please.  People invest in ideas on a daily basis.  Many ideas fall through, but some do come to fruition.

     

    Welcome to life.

     

    THIS

    image

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