Pure arrogance will destroy this game

Unknown · May 2012

Originally posted by adaneshade
Originally posted by QuicklyScott

Also correct me if I am wrong but GW2 does not have an open world but is instead instanced, right?

Consider yourself corrected. It is not instanced. The only instances are actually the dungeons. There are player limits set in WvW to control performance and balance issues that would arise from too many players at once. This is not the same thing as an instance which sets up a separate map for each party that joins.

That's just WvW, the PvE maps are all totally open.

This is one of the most basic changes where ANet has deviated from GW1.

GW2 has loading screens between zones. The word "instanced" doesn't necessarily mean much here. But GW2 does essentially have an open world.

It just has hard loading boudnaries instead of soft loading boundaries. In other words it doesn't hide the seams between zones like some games do.

xenogias · May 2012

Originally posted by Puremallace
Source: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/21/arenanet-guild-wars-2-a-reaction-to-sluggish-mmo-design/

Do you believe that the MMO genre has been stuck in a rut over the past few years? So does Christopher Lye, the global brand director for ArenaNet, who publicly denounced the post-World of Warcraft trend in the industry as stagnant.

In an interview with Gamasutra, Lye stated that Guild Wars 2 is walking the walk when it comes to genuinely challenging the status quo in the industry. "Honestly, I think the problem is that there's been a lack of change in MMO design and that Guild Wars 2 is a reaction to that," he said. "People will call this risky, but we think it's riskier just to churn out the same MMO that everyone has played before."

Lye pointed to Guild Wars 2's scaling dynamic event system and its action combat as examples as to how ArenaNet is forging its own path. Observing that player consumption of content is "virtually insatiable," Lye said that the team has developed tools to allow it to implement changes and additions to dynamic events in hours, not weeks.

Is this industry stagnation coming to an end? Lye says yes: "We're finally seeing a point where companies realize that they're not going to create the next great MMO by just copying what's come before."

The massive balls this guy has to say this crap and just pretend like Rift never happened is just amazing to me. Are devs just inside a little box where nothing gets in that is happening around them? Can ArenaNET please release this game already so that it can stop riding the hype train?

The real diffrence between GW2 is that they are expanding on alot of things. Not just one and saying its a new game. Is GW2 completely diffrent? No. But its expanding on current stuff for 90% of the game instead of doing 10% and claiming its "new" like rift and everything else since WoW (thats a themepark) has done.

He doesnt have to have massive balls for what he said. All you have to do is watch the trend. OH LOOKY A SHINY NEW MMO. A week later. "I'm going back to wow". Not saying that wont happen in GW2 mind you, I'm just saying GW2 feels diffrent enough to be CALLED diffrent. Good or bad is yet to be seen.

caremuchless · May 2012

Originally posted by Puremallace
Looks as if my thread struck a cord with a few people. My reasoning is simple for questioning this arrogance. Here are some facts:

1. ArenaNET is basically inexperienced with a MMORPG as proven by their recent test and complaints.

2. GW2 is going to attract the WoW crowd like it or not. This crowd = money and lots of it and ArenaNEt will have to decide will they bow to the financial preasure that will be put on them. We all know the complaints already and what the threads will look like from these people, so I do not need to go into detail.

3. There is a apparent arrogance when it comes to every claim made about pvp when it comes to this game that I find it impossible that it will ever live up to it.

4. We know little to nothing about end game or what their release schedule will look like. Only thing we have to go by is the Guild Wars content release schedule which is pitiful at best when compared to Trion or other devs.

5. Features from this mmorpg are going to be copied almost immediately upon release, so anything a GW2 fans thinks makes this game special will be labeled as generic.

Heres some facts,

1. You need to look up "fact" in the dictionary because you don't know what the word means.

2. You don't own a crystal ball

3. Opinions aren't fact.

My opinion is that we all got trolled.

Roybe · May 2012

Irony: A marketing director whose name is 'Lye'...[mod edit]

Chopsticks · May 2012

My only concern with GW2 is that everything is up front. I don't know how much I can grow in the game. There is not much I have to learn. It's all there in front of you. If you use weapon A + B you get these abilities. If you use B+A you get these minus those two, plus these two.

I'm not a reroller so once I have my class, and I understand these 4 or 5 variations, played these variations for a month (I play a lot...) and have gotten pretty good with them, what's left? More of the same. From what I hear there was a lot more freedom in playstyle in GW1.

I have no doubts at all being a pvpr that I'll have a blast in WvWvW, but for how long, I don't know. I think the community will have to be open to other forms of pvp content for long term playability. Arena's, PvP DEs (like pvp rifts, but DEs), or whatever.

kzaske · May 2012

Originally posted by Puremallace
...snip...

The massive balls this guy has to say this crap and just pretend like Rift never happened is just amazing to me. Are devs just inside a little box where nothing gets in that is happening around them? Can ArenaNET please release this game already so that it can stop riding the hype train?

From what I read, there was nothing said that really required massive balls and it's not hard to think that Rift never happened. They took ideas announced by other companies and made a version of it that barely worked and put it out there in a very quikly built piece of software. Not going to call it a game, nope, you can't make me call it a game.

drakaena · May 2012

@chopsticks
Well said.

Wolfynsong · May 2012

Originally posted by DrNo172000
Originally posted by Puremallace
Is this industry stagnation coming to an end? Lye says yes: "We're finally seeing a point where companies realize that they're not going to create the next great MMO by just copying what's come before."

I think you've had a bit of reading comprehension fail there.

If you look at the above paragraph you'll see he says that other companies have realized the same thing as well. Meaning that other companies have innovated as well. He never mentions the words Trion or Rift either, therefore you are taking a serious leap in logic. You are using what is called a straw man, which is a fallacy in logic.

"Honestly, I think the problem is that there's been a lack of change in MMO design " Here is what lye says, here is more or less how you misrepresented his position. Lye says that there has been a lack of change in MMO design, therefore he is saying Rift didn't have any change from the standard MMO design with it's Rift system.

Straw man: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresenting an opponent's position so as to more easily refute it.

Example

Person A: Sunny days are good.

Person B: If all days were sunny, we'd never have rain, and without rain, we'd have famine and death. Therefore, you are wrong.

Problem: B has misrepresented A's claim by falsely suggesting that A claimed that only sunny days are good, and then B refuted the misrepresented version of the claim, rather than refuting A's original assertion.

QFT. But then again, it's not like logic was the point of this topic. The point was for Puremallace [sic] to vent some amount of indignation over an MMO actually being good for once.

I mean, he has stated that he will not touch this game because of the hype. So, he is passing judgement on a game while at the same time admitting he will not give it a fair shot.

Puremallace [sic] is also directly ignoring the numerous people here who have actually played the game, and who think the beta is still meeting the hype at least halfway.

Then he starts a libellous thread in which he denounces a marketing manager for... marketing. And not even a door-to-door salesman type of marketing - just a generalized statement which sums up everything that has been wrong with MMO's since WoW, while pointing out why GW2 is set up to be different.

Finally, he then remains around to argue with people who disagree with him. If it didn't seem so sincerely vengeful, I'd declare it trolling. As it stands, though, I must simply say that I agree with the title of the thread. Yes, pure arrogance will destroy this game.

But the arrogance here is that Puremallace [sic] actually seems to believe that his opinion on hype trumps the experiences of thousands of people.

Arrogance like that, coming from enough people, will definitely destroy this game from the inside out.

...and now cometh the wrath of the mods.

GeezerGamer · May 2012

Originally posted by Wolfynsong
Originally posted by DrNo172000

Originally posted by Puremallace
Is this industry stagnation coming to an end? Lye says yes: "We're finally seeing a point where companies realize that they're not going to create the next great MMO by just copying what's come before."

I think you've had a bit of reading comprehension fail there.

If you look at the above paragraph you'll see he says that other companies have realized the same thing as well. Meaning that other companies have innovated as well. He never mentions the words Trion or Rift either, therefore you are taking a serious leap in logic. You are using what is called a straw man, which is a fallacy in logic.

"Honestly, I think the problem is that there's been a lack of change in MMO design " Here is what lye says, here is more or less how you misrepresented his position. Lye says that there has been a lack of change in MMO design, therefore he is saying Rift didn't have any change from the standard MMO design with it's Rift system.

Straw man: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresenting an opponent's position so as to more easily refute it.

Example

Person A: Sunny days are good.

Person B: If all days were sunny, we'd never have rain, and without rain, we'd have famine and death. Therefore, you are wrong.

Problem: B has misrepresented A's claim by falsely suggesting that A claimed that only sunny days are good, and then B refuted the misrepresented version of the claim, rather than refuting A's original assertion.

QFT. But then again, it's not like logic was the point of this topic. The point was for Puremallace [sic] to vent some amount of indignation over an MMO actually being good for once.

I mean, he has stated that he will not touch this game because of the hype. So, he is passing judgement on a game while at the same time admitting he will not give it a fair shot.

Puremallace [sic] is also directly ignoring the numerous people here who have actually played the game, and who think the beta is still meeting the hype at least halfway.

Then he starts a libellous thread in which he denounces a marketing manager for... marketing. And not even a door-to-door salesman type of marketing - just a generalized statement which sums up everything that has been wrong with MMO's since WoW, while pointing out why GW2 is set up to be different.

Finally, he then remains around to argue with people who disagree with him. If it didn't seem so sincerely vengeful, I'd declare it trolling. As it stands, though, I must simply say that I agree with the title of the thread. Yes, pure arrogance will destroy this game.

But the arrogance here is that Puremallace [sic] actually seems to believe that his opinion on hype trumps the experiences of thousands of people.

Arrogance like that, coming from enough people, will definitely destroy this game from the inside out.

...and now cometh the wrath of the mods.

I know the OP is a fan of Rift. And there is nothing wrong with that. I enjoyed the game myself. Not presently subbed, but I enjoyed it while I played. Anyway. I have to wonder if he is in some way resentful towards GW2 for being more popular than Rift. I really believe there is a bit of that in his GW2 posts. That said, many of GW2's defenders can easily be found over in the Rift boards tearing Rift/Trion to pieces wherever they can. (along with others) Even so much so that when Trion announced 3 faction PVP is comming to Rift, GW2 fans flamed Rift accusing Trion of stealing from Anet. Which as far as comments go, I found that one funny. It got to the point where one GW2 fan told the others to knock it off, they were making all GW2 fans look like douche bags. So, why is it ok to "white knight" one game while bashing another but then pissed at someone else for doing the exact same thing? Really, this behavior should stop.

OP, you do some good posts over in the Rift board. Don't you think your focus would be better spent there?

Amana · May 2012

Please stick to the topic at hand. We're in the GW2 forum, after all. I've cleaned up a derail about D3. Those discussions should be taken to the Diablo 3 forum.

Chopsticks · May 2012

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Wolfynsong

Originally posted by DrNo172000

Originally posted by Puremallace
Is this industry stagnation coming to an end? Lye says yes: "We're finally seeing a point where companies realize that they're not going to create the next great MMO by just copying what's come before."

I think you've had a bit of reading comprehension fail there.

If you look at the above paragraph you'll see he says that other companies have realized the same thing as well. Meaning that other companies have innovated as well. He never mentions the words Trion or Rift either, therefore you are taking a serious leap in logic. You are using what is called a straw man, which is a fallacy in logic.

"Honestly, I think the problem is that there's been a lack of change in MMO design " Here is what lye says, here is more or less how you misrepresented his position. Lye says that there has been a lack of change in MMO design, therefore he is saying Rift didn't have any change from the standard MMO design with it's Rift system.

Straw man: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresenting an opponent's position so as to more easily refute it.

Example

Person A: Sunny days are good.

Person B: If all days were sunny, we'd never have rain, and without rain, we'd have famine and death. Therefore, you are wrong.

Problem: B has misrepresented A's claim by falsely suggesting that A claimed that only sunny days are good, and then B refuted the misrepresented version of the claim, rather than refuting A's original assertion.

QFT. But then again, it's not like logic was the point of this topic. The point was for Puremallace [sic] to vent some amount of indignation over an MMO actually being good for once.

I mean, he has stated that he will not touch this game because of the hype. So, he is passing judgement on a game while at the same time admitting he will not give it a fair shot.

Puremallace [sic] is also directly ignoring the numerous people here who have actually played the game, and who think the beta is still meeting the hype at least halfway.

Then he starts a libellous thread in which he denounces a marketing manager for... marketing. And not even a door-to-door salesman type of marketing - just a generalized statement which sums up everything that has been wrong with MMO's since WoW, while pointing out why GW2 is set up to be different.

Finally, he then remains around to argue with people who disagree with him. If it didn't seem so sincerely vengeful, I'd declare it trolling. As it stands, though, I must simply say that I agree with the title of the thread. Yes, pure arrogance will destroy this game.

But the arrogance here is that Puremallace [sic] actually seems to believe that his opinion on hype trumps the experiences of thousands of people.

Arrogance like that, coming from enough people, will definitely destroy this game from the inside out.

...and now cometh the wrath of the mods.

I know the OP is a fan of Rift. And there is nothing wrong with that. I enjoyed the game myself. Not presently subbed, but I enjoyed it while I played. Anyway. I have to wonder if he is in some way resentful towards GW2 for being more popular than Rift. I really believe there is a bit of that in his GW2 posts. That said, many of GW2's defenders can easily be found over in the Rift boards tearing Rift/Trion to pieces wherever they can. (along with others) Even so much so that when Trion announced 3 faction PVP is comming to Rift, GW2 fans flamed Rift accusing Trion of stealing from Anet. Which as far as comments go, I found that one funny. It got to the point where one GW2 fan told the others to knock it off, they were making all GW2 fans look like douche bags. So, why is it ok to "white knight" one game while bashing another but then pissed at someone else for doing the exact same thing? Really, this behavior should stop.

OP, you do some good posts over in the Rift board. Don't you think your focus would be better spent there?

I do think the title doesn't really fit the article, but I do get OP's point. The thread has made for some good reading too.

Wolfynsong · May 2012

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
I know the OP is a fan of Rift. And there is nothing wrong with that. I enjoyed the game myself. Not presently subbed, but I enjoyed it while I played. Anyway. I have to wonder if he is in some way resentful towards GW2 for being more popular than Rift. I really believe there is a bit of that in his GW2 posts. That said, many of GW2's defenders can easily be found over in the Rift boards tearing Rift/Trion to pieces wherever they can. (along with others) Even so much so that when Trion announced 3 faction PVP is comming to Rift, GW2 fans flamed Rift accusing Trion of stealing from Anet. Which as far as comments go, I found that one funny. It got to the point where one GW2 fan told the others to knock it off, they were making all GW2 fans look like douche bags. So, why is it ok to "white knight" one game while bashing another but then pissed at someone else for doing the exact same thing? Really, this behavior should stop.

OP, you do some good posts over in the Rift board. Don't you think your focus would be better spent there?

White knighting is the last thing I was intending to do there. I firmly believe in giving credit where credit is due. I just also think it's stupid to go out of your way to attack a game which you refuse to even try.

I'm not arguing that ridiculous flaming and troll posts exist on both sides of the fence; they certainly do. If he'd come and just posted that he would never play the game, I could respect that. Hell, even if he said he hated it I would still be totally fine.

Nonetheless, I stand by what I said before. The OP was not the beginning of a discussion, nor was it a valid argument. It's sophistry. Troll bait. An accelerant.

I mean, I have zero intention of ever playing Rift. But I also don't visit the Rift forums to let them know how much their game sucks, I don't misconstrue information and/or employ logical fallacies to try and prove my point (I hope not, anyway), and I certainly don't justify all of it by saying people are doomed to hate the game due to an excess of "hype."

Well. I shouldn't let it annoy me, I suppose. It's just that willful ignorance is a pet peeve of mine. The world has enough stupidity without people actively trying at it.

The_Korrigan · May 2012

Originally posted by gestalt11

GW2 has loading screens between zones. The word "instanced" doesn't necessarily mean much here. But GW2 does essentially have an open world.

It just has hard loading boudnaries instead of soft loading boundaries. In other words it doesn't hide the seams between zones like some games do.

... which, considering the huge size of the zones, isn't really a problem

Requiamer · May 2012

The problem is not the players and their "stupid" behavior because they are not stupid in fact. People feel their beloved playstyle can become discarded by the industry, and that's why they react like this, especially in multi game community like this one.

The problem is that the industry is totally unable to fit their market, in fact they don't even try to fit to it and give the choice people are looking for. Because you have this mainstream game that is significantly better quality than the rest of the "crappy" games. So this significantly better quality game is copied all over the place, and you have all the mmo community focusing on this game whatever they like it or not. People that don't want this game because they know what they want and just refuse, well they are just pissed and don't play. If the industry was able to fit the market and would offer a good quality sandbox, a good quality pve, pvp, rp mmo, you can be sure people wouldn't be so aggressive to defend their beloved playstyle, maybe? But as it stand now the mmo industry is like a "king of the hill" game, and who ever make the better game is kicking the rest down hill. The funny part is that during mmo history if a company had a good game that would fit an other non king of the hill market, well they would just destroy it to turn it into a "king of the hill", just like they did with UO and SWG. So the player reaction have to be like it is here "i hate you game because mine is better".

What is funny here is watching people defending the "grind is everything in rpg" come here defend their playstyle. Honestly its just amusing and silly to me. They have so much games around, but they still come here defends teeth and claw their beloved playstyle as if it was the only thing an rpg should be, had to be, can possibly be... But ye its kind of natural, as i said. And Anet is probably playing a bit with that aspect in their PR, honestly i don't think you can really tell them anything, is it just PR or because they are also fade up with that silliness, and because they want to make a game their own way, hard to tell, most likely both. In any case it's better to not make waves, but sometime you can't help, as i said its a reaction you can't really help.

FredomSekerZ · May 2012

OP, why do you care? Is the fall or sucess of this game going to make Rift better? No, so why does it matter? It's PR BS. Devs always say stuff like this. "Our game is different and others aren't" "What we are doing has never been done before" "We know what players want" blah blah blah. It's not just gw2, it«s everyone. Remember the MW3 vs BF3 "moron wars"?

Only idiots use things like sales, sub numbers, money made, size of the company, and my personnal favorite, the "game of the year" award to account for the quality of their games. Also, why would you want the game to "fall" or something? The retards at the top of the companies will keep their jobs while people with good intentions get fired. I don't want that.

I think GW2 is a good game. I don't think it's a good mmo's, but that's just my opinion and know that others disagree. Stop acting like an angry fanboy, because you only make yourself look bad. Only bad gamers need to go up to others games and try to prove their game is better or try to put down another games (games!) and trust me, that goes for any fanboys of any game.

Soandsoso · May 2012

JUst came from the Rift forums, very few people posting and didn't see anyone bashing it wearing a GW2 t-shirt.

But I have seen Puremallace on 3 seperate sites and all his posts are about something he doesn't like.

Amana · May 2012

Ok folks, it seems like things have run their course if the posts keep turning to the OP and other games. Locking it up.

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