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Who's to blame? EA or Bioware? Both?

13

Comments

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member
    Originally posted by Kabaal

    The blame for what? People on a site more inclined towards sandbox games not liking it? As has been stated, bioware are just a department of EA anyway.

     

    Niice spin.   We've already had 900K quit on an official basis as of 03/31/2012.  More importantly, is the absolute collapse of the game on the servers.   If we define healthy and functional as a server with a TORStatus number of 1.50 (and 1.50 is not that good, but it's a cut-off):

     

    • There are THREE European servers that have TORStatus of 1.50 or higher.   THere are NO European servers at 2.0 or higher.
    • There are FOUR North American servers that have a TORSTatus of 1.50 higher.   There is ONE NA server at 2.0 or higher.
    • All THREE Asia-Pacific are at 1.50 or higher.   None are 2.0 or higher.

     

    That's TEN of 214 servers are healthy.      There are over 100 servers in, essentially, permenant light status.

     

    That's all beause the game sucks.   So that's what the question is about.  Who is to blame for the lastest shame-less cash-grab Warhammer/Age of Conan like failure?

     

    So, I voted BioWare.   Game started development in 2005.   The team that made the game was assembled in 2006, the game spec'd and they'd started writing, etc way back then.   EA bought BioWare in 2007 and didn't finish bringing them in-house until 2008.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    In

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

    I blame everyone.   Bioware for thinking sticking a feature wow features on 8 genetic fantasy storys will make a good MMO.  LA for being LA, charging to much, screwing with SWG and then closing it, and for allowing this dribble to come out.  EA for sucking at making game and ruining not SWTOr but ME2, ME3, and DA2 by destoring bioware eithics and work culture.

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

  • sapphensapphen Madison, NCPosts: 911Member Common

    I don't think the game is that bad.  It's got problems and going through changes but we haven't seen the last of SWTOR.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by jdnewell
    Originally posted by noncley
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by Kabaal
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Kabaal

    The blame for what? People on a site more inclined towards sandbox games not liking it? As has been stated, bioware are just a department of EA anyway.

    I'm a sandbox fan and I liked the leveling process in TOR. BUt I would assume the blame he's talking about falls on the lack of end-game options avilable. Which is the games biggest problem.

    His question was just a general "who's to blame?", kinda open ended and a bit pointless IMO. With such a general question it'll just be another one of those threads saying the same things that have been said for months now.

    Yep. Prepare for another round of "It's a singleplayer game", "EA sucks", "Bioware no longer exists", "They are arrogant", "They deserve to fail", "The game is dead", etc.etc.etc.

    You're pretty much the only poster in these forums who doesn['t recognise that.

    In fact, you're always here, defending any and every aspect of SWTOR, BA and EA.

    http://www.cinemablend.com/games/EA-Viral-Marketing-Exposed-Big-Buyout-Horizon-40885.html


    Yes he is isnt he lol.

    Maybe he is or is not a paid marketer. But it would be foolish to think these people do not exist. On the bright side if he is a paid marketer he gets paid to sit in front of a computer all day and read forums, maybe if I moved to east asia I could too !

    Yeah, I'd make more money at it, but I just got docked again for saying that 1.3 isn't going to bring in more customers and that I thought they were spinning the success of 1.2.

    /sarcasm off

    Do you guys even bother looking at a person's post history before spouting lies?

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member
    Originally posted by Psythos

    The game is actually pretty damn good despite being a wow clone. What bugs me is if you go to teh swtor forums pre launch youll see every otehr post was asking and begging for them to make it just like wow. They give all of these idiots exactly what they asked for. Why they are complaining everywhere and leaving the game is ridiculous. The players are failing this game, not the devs.

     

     

    Sigh.   Classic blame the victim.   Can never accept that players play good games and don't play bad ones. 

     

    Here's the deal:  people vote with their money and their attendence.  

     

    Sales are so far down (40k per month) that even if they slowed the churn to just 5% they'd stablize the game at under 700K.    A five-percent churn rate is for a game at peak popularity.  Like WoW during it's growth phase.   

     

    Right now we have, at a minimum, a 15% churn rate in the first quarter.  It's higher in the actual, but you can't deny the minium with 900K of 2.2 million dropping thier subs in 70-days elibible for cancelation.   That projects out to a 225K MMO in 48 months.

     

    Even worse than that bad news,  XFire log-ins have drastically fallen the past month.   They are a good predictor of future subscription losses.   They won't give you an exact number because active play and subscriptions are not fully linked (you can quit the game, but have days, weeks, months or even a year of play time left) .   But they suggest the churn rate is going to double in the April - June quarter.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 lakeland, FLPosts: 4,074Member Common
    Originally posted by MosesZD
    Originally posted by Psythos

    The game is actually pretty damn good despite being a wow clone. What bugs me is if you go to teh swtor forums pre launch youll see every otehr post was asking and begging for them to make it just like wow. They give all of these idiots exactly what they asked for. Why they are complaining everywhere and leaving the game is ridiculous. The players are failing this game, not the devs.

     

     

    Sigh.   Classic blame the victim.   Can never accept that players play good games and don't play bad ones. 

     

    Here's the deal:  people vote with their money and their attendence.  

     

    Sales are so far down (40k per month) that even if they slowed the churn to just 5% they'd stablize the game at under 700K.    A five-percent churn rate is for a game at peak popularity.  Like WoW during it's growth phase.   

     

    Right now we have, at a minimum, a 15% churn rate in the first quarter.  It's higher in the actual, but you can't deny the minium with 900K of 2.2 million dropping thier subs in 70-days elibible for cancelation.   That projects out to a 225K MMO in 48 months.

     

    Even worse than that bad news,  XFire log-ins have drastically fallen the past month.   They are a good predictor of future subscription losses.   They won't give you an exact number because active play and subscriptions are not fully linked (you can quit the game, but have days, weeks, months or even a year of play time left) .   But they suggest the churn rate is going to double in the April - June quarter.

    I don't believe in blaming the player either. In the end, the buck stops with the developers. They are the ones who make the decision of whether or not to do something. It's true that a great many players contradict themselves consistently, but the devs should have been the ones that did their homework and hire experienced people to give the best advice.

    Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Posts: 1,179Member Uncommon

    I blame all the fools who pre ordered this game giveing EA millions of dollars before the game is even finished. then all they did was release a crappy game knowing they already made all their money back.

    us players are the reason we get shitty games like star wars. we buy them without trying them first or we buy them hopeing they will get better when we know deep down it wont. then the next company makes the same shitty game with the same promises and its the same result.

    want to blame sombody?

    look in the mirror.

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAPosts: 2,320Member Uncommon

    I'd like to say EA is all that's to blame, but after watching Bioware defend ME3/DA2 tooth and nail, I'm positive EA's not the one part of this cookie missing a chip.

    They're both to blame.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • RockhideRockhide Chicagoland, ILPosts: 155Member

    Bioware gave their "true fans" exactly what they asked for. 

     

    Everything that people cite as problems with the game was brought up time and time again before it was released, and the true Bioware fans repeatedly and vehemently rejected those recommendations (I laugh now seeing on the official forums that like 95% want dual-speccing added when hundreds upon hundreds of posts were made by the true fans back in 2011 claiming that dual speccing ruined MMOs).

     

    So at least some of the blame has to go to the fans who were willing to embrace an inferior TOR and helped feed the hungry egos of Bioware's devs during the development process IMO.

     

    I would also argue that Bioware did what they're good at.  They've never invented compelling gameplay, combat, or character-building systems.  They borrow those ideas from other sources and tack them onto games built around personal story and memorable characters.

     

    Like a lot of people, it seems like EA saw "Bioware" and "Star Wars" and thought they had the next big thing without understanding that Bioware wasn't going to make "WoWkiller in Space."  They were going to take very basic MMO features and tack them onto KotoR 3 (4, 5, and 6) instead.

     

    That said, I don't think the Bioware people are blameless.  They've driven off a lot of people off with the way they've handled the game's problems and treated fans in the process. 

  • rguilbertrguilbert Key West, FLPosts: 107Member

    There is no Bioware...only EA. 

     

    Bioware has been

    ...assimilated into the Borg (for you Sci Fi types)

    ...or converted into a mindless undead thrall (for you fantasy types)

    ... or bought out, had its talent dispersed, had its name given to numerous other (not really bioware) groups, had its upper-level staff made into "yes men", and had its reputation used like an ugly adult film star (for you reality types).

  • IrusIrus Wichita, KSPosts: 774Member

    I'd say BioWare because I feel the game distinctly lacks work/ideas.

  • eyeswideopeneyeswideopen Fresno, CAPosts: 2,414Member
    Originally posted by rguilbert

    There is no Bioware...only EA. 

     

    Bioware has been

    ...assimilated into the Borg (for you Sci Fi types)

    ...or converted into a mindless undead thrall (for you fantasy types)

    ... or bought out, had its talent dispersed, had its name given to numerous other (not really bioware) groups, had its upper-level staff made into "yes men", and had its reputation used like an ugly adult film star (for you reality types).

    This.^

    EAware is to blame.

    -Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
    -And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

    LucasArts is a strict parent company with the license of their beloved Star Wars.  They lay down heavy ground rules on their delusional "vision" of what the game being made must be like.

    And its up to the developer that they hire the contract out to, to deal with these strict guidelines.

    I'm not saying Bioware(EA) didn't also drop the ball, but I am saying that LucasArts designed the vision of how said ball should look.

    I just don't buy it this time around. ToR is exactly the kind of MMO BW would have made with any of their own IP's. Just so happens they used the SW IP instead of using ME or DA.

    You cant know that. Having emphasis on story is one thing, having WoW clone is another.

    In fact BW itself never said they want to compete with WoW, thas exclusively EA talk.

    EA is definately to blame, BW for taking EAs dump and making...well...SWTOR as we know it.

    Think that EA, after its failed MMOs wanted to compete with WoW by - cloning it with good brand name.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk

      /  

    This. Any other expectation from BW was either niave or clouded by wishful thinking.

    I suspect that they will have significant diificulties correcting the flaws in the game. The main reason being game design choice. It doesn't mean, they can't save the game or bring back the population . It's a question of how intent are they on making the changes and adjustments necessary to do so. There is still a basis for solid MMO here and it's still early in it's evolution. It should prove interesting to obverse. 

    1. Such fundamental changes to the game cant be done in patches, but would require expansion. And since i think they got their first expansion all lined up, 2nd expansion at best. Thats what, 2-3 years?

    2. Such drastic changes to the game - question is - do you do them in order to bring in more people or is it better to stick with audience you have *cough*NGE*cough*LOTRO MoM*cough*

  • xmentyxmenty SingaporePosts: 679Member
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by GreenHell
    Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

    LucasArts is a strict parent company with the license of their beloved Star Wars.  They lay down heavy ground rules on their delusional "vision" of what the game being made must be like.

    And its up to the developer that they hire the contract out to, to deal with these strict guidelines.

    I'm not saying Bioware(EA) didn't also drop the ball, but I am saying that LucasArts designed the vision of how said ball should look.

    I just don't buy it this time around. ToR is exactly the kind of MMO BW would have made with any of their own IP's. Just so happens they used the SW IP instead of using ME or DA.

    You cant know that. Having emphasis on story is one thing, having WoW clone is another.

    In fact BW itself never said they want to compete with WoW, thas exclusively EA talk.

    EA is definately to blame, BW for taking EAs dump and making...well...SWTOR as we know it.

    Think that EA, after its failed MMOs wanted to compete with WoW by - cloning it with good brand name.

    I think the guy who say, they do not wish to compete with WOW should be demoted.

    Thats sentence was a warning bells ringing to investors when they say that.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language :)

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    I just don't buy it this time around. ToR is exactly the kind of MMO BW would have made with any of their own IP's. Just so happens they used the SW IP instead of using ME or DA.

     

    This.  Plus they'd started on the MMO, including full teams and spec'ing it out a year before EA bought BioWare and it took quite sometime to integrate BioWare into EA.   

  • GadarethGadareth Westcliff-on-SeaPosts: 313Member

    Nobody is to blame for SWToR to be perfectly honest what your getting is EXACTLY what was promised. We constantly clamour for developers to try something different a new take  and yet when we do we belittle it and often claim it is not inovative or new enough.

    SWToR is story focused with all npcs voiced it is what it's always claimed to be and its what it delivered. The other elements are there perhaps not to your liking but they are there.

    Almost every single hate post I have seen conserning SWToR has been because the game did not foucs on what ever aspect of a mmorpg the poster in particular favored. Be in combat, PvP or basic design.

    People when a developer says they have focused on story and the voice overs and that the game play itself is to follow x style and the art x concept then guess what when they do that its a GOOD thing. It means if your not liking what they say don't buy.

    If you like what they say or think its a plausibale concept then do buy and if you feel that the concept is flawed once you have played it for real then by all means unsubscribe. Even post and explain why your not happy perhaps if your expectations are realistic and don' tbasically boil down to you suck do it my way then the developers amy even consider your suggestions if enough people express well reasoned and thought responses about why its a good idea.

     

    Below you will se my take on a constructive review of a mmorpg.

    I believe there are 3 main pillars to a MMORPG. this is how I believe SWTOR relates to them:-

    1) The characters how much control do you feel you have over them and how individual do you feel. In my opinion SWTOR could have done  abit better here would have liked more options on the curomisation.Also as a story driven mmorpg your freedom is a tad curtailed. Character housing is very weak with no customisation allowed and I would prefer if the NPCs in the ship were more dynamic.

    2) The playing expierince is it immersive do you feel like a character in the Star Wars Old Republic universe for me I feel the answer is yes. I dont always agree with the opions allowed me in the conversations but I do find the voice over adds extra dimension and its even better on grp missions. Crafting is there but I feel it is a bit lacking often by the time you can make a item on leveling you dont need it anyway. Unless your prepared to spend an abysmal amount of time and credits on it. But its there and the chance to have the orange modable gear means you can optimse your look and still stay viable.

    3) End Game, now here SWToR has a little problem as its story driven once you reach the end of the story your a bit lost. Not a lot of scope here unless you like Alts, and here you find SWToRs primary focus with the legacy system etc they want to promote making alts as your primary souce of continuation. With each glass having its own uniquw storyline this is the path their endgame has tken.

    All in all SWTOR is not a bad game but its to static which is  shame because with a bit more activity around the NPCs and player / companion interaction it wouls improve greatly.  The customisation options while reasonable are still a bit lack luster and could do with more variation what we have is not bad but we need more off it. Nothing wrong with the combat or animations its down to preference if you liek that style its good if you dont its not.

     

    Just my 2 cents

    Gadareth

  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon

    Masters of singleplayer were tasked with making an MMO.

    The result is what you see.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Something I have said before but I think warrants repeating is that the "Bioware" that made Dragon Age, NWN, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, etc. did NOT make SWTOR.  And I do not mean this metaphorically or figuratively, I mean it literally.

    SWTOR was made by a separate studio under the Bioware label formed specifically to create SWTOR.  This studio is located LITERALLY over TWO THOUSAND miles away from the Bioware that we all know at love (loved?).  So I really don't see SWTOR as a "Bioware" game, despite its brand label.

    As for the future of Bioware, I think it's pretty much over.  EA has started or rebranded EIGHT of its studios under the "Bioware" brand, including one studio that makes SOCIAL GAMES.  In fact, EA has an very impressive lineup of "Bioware" games coming out in the near future.  We can all look forward to Bioware classics such as:

    Command and Conquer Generals 3

    Warhammer Wrath of Heroes

    And I'm sure there will be more soon.

    Face it, Bioware is no more.  They started overreaching with SWTOR by starting another studio, then sold out to EA and EA is looking to just harvest the brand name by selling crappy games to suckers that will buy anything that says "Bioware" on it.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • red_cruiserred_cruiser Milwaukee, WIPosts: 472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Something I have said before but I think warrants repeating is that the "Bioware" that made Dragon Age, NWN, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, etc. did NOT make SWTOR.  And I do not mean this metaphorically or figuratively, I mean it literally.

    SWTOR was made by a separate studio under the Bioware label formed specifically to create SWTOR.  This studio is located LITERALLY over TWO THOUSAND miles away from the Bioware that we all know at love (loved?).  So I really don't see SWTOR as a "Bioware" game, despite its brand label.

    As for the future of Bioware, I think it's pretty much over.  EA has started or rebranded EIGHT of its studios under the "Bioware" brand, including one studio that makes SOCIAL GAMES.  In fact, EA has an very impressive lineup of "Bioware" games coming out in the near future.  We can all look forward to Bioware classics such as:

    Command and Conquer Generals 3

    Warhammer Wrath of Heroes

    And I'm sure there will be more soon.

    Face it, Bioware is no more.  They started overreaching with SWTOR by starting another studio, then sold out to EA and EA is looking to just harvest the brand name by selling crappy games to suckers that will buy anything that says "Bioware" on it.

    This sums it up perfectly.  There were probably more Mythic/Warhammer people making SWTOR as opposed to actual BIoWare folks.  The problem is that the BioWare name has already lost most, if not all, of it's market power.

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member
    Originally posted by MosesZD
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    I just don't buy it this time around. ToR is exactly the kind of MMO BW would have made with any of their own IP's. Just so happens they used the SW IP instead of using ME or DA.

     

    This.  Plus they'd started on the MMO, including full teams and spec'ing it out a year before EA bought BioWare and it took quite sometime to integrate BioWare into EA.   

    Agreed.

    The concepts that make the game mediocre are all Bioware's responsibility.  It's their design and their vision.  Has been since the start.  I just didn't realize that BW had so many delusional fans out there who will direct the blame anywhere but where it belongs.  It's just really convenient that they have a gigantic target like EA available for that. 

    EA is guilty of many, many things, but SWTOR is Bioware's mistake and only their's.  Just because EA is deserting it like rats leaving a sinking ship, doesn't mean that they are the ones who built the thing with a hull made from balsa wood and papier-mâché.

  • SlickShoesSlickShoes EdinburghPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Psythos

    The game is actually pretty damn good despite being a wow clone. What bugs me is if you go to teh swtor forums pre launch youll see every otehr post was asking and begging for them to make it just like wow. They give all of these idiots exactly what they asked for. Why they are complaining everywhere and leaving the game is ridiculous. The players are failing this game, not the devs.

    The people that wanted it to be similar to WoW got burned because it's like WoW, but worse.

     

    Less features.

    Sloppier combat.

    Worse raids.

    Less classes.

    Worse balance.

    Worse PvP system. 

    More closed in with more zoning.

     

    SWTOR was a WoW clone without the quality of WoW.

    This guy speaks the truth, I actually started playing WoW again after SWTOR just so I could remember what a well made theme park MMO is like.

    BioWare and EA and LA made the worst MMO I have played in my life. It was a decent single player game but it was sorely lacking in anything that would make it last as an MMO.

    image
  • SoandsosoSoandsoso Richmond Hill, ONPosts: 533Member

    No one is to blame as they have made the game they said they were going to make. With all the information out there the blame if any falls onto the person who bought it without researching or even after researching still purchased and subbed.

    Lets all agree that some don't like it and move on.

  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member
    Originally posted by Unlight
    Originally posted by MosesZD
    Originally posted by GreenHell

    I just don't buy it this time around. ToR is exactly the kind of MMO BW would have made with any of their own IP's. Just so happens they used the SW IP instead of using ME or DA.

     

    This.  Plus they'd started on the MMO, including full teams and spec'ing it out a year before EA bought BioWare and it took quite sometime to integrate BioWare into EA.   

    Agreed.

    The concepts that make the game mediocre are all Bioware's responsibility.  It's their design and their vision.  Has been since the start.  I just didn't realize that BW had so many delusional fans out there who will direct the blame anywhere but where it belongs.  It's just really convenient that they have a gigantic target like EA available for that. 

    EA is guilty of many, many things, but SWTOR is Bioware's mistake and only their's.  Just because EA is deserting it like rats leaving a sinking ship, doesn't mean that they are the ones who built the thing with a hull made from balsa wood and papier-mâché.

    I have to completely agree with you on that. I will say that I feel Lucas Arts does hold some of the responsibilty here too though. I remember Daniel Erickson talking about how they could not beleive that LA greenlighted the completely voice acted content knowing full well how much of an effort it would be to create. I feel the full VO content was what sucked the life out of all other parts of the game and left the dev staff way behind schedual even after five years of work. If LA had told Bioware to not go for broke with VO I think the game would be in a far better state than its current one.

    The only blame I feel lies with EA is them forcing Bioware to relase an unfinished game that most likely would never have been ready.

    image

    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    Originally posted by red_cruiser
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Something I have said before but I think warrants repeating is that the "Bioware" that made Dragon Age, NWN, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, etc. did NOT make SWTOR.  And I do not mean this metaphorically or figuratively, I mean it literally.

    SWTOR was made by a separate studio under the Bioware label formed specifically to create SWTOR.  This studio is located LITERALLY over TWO THOUSAND miles away from the Bioware that we all know at love (loved?).  So I really don't see SWTOR as a "Bioware" game, despite its brand label.

    As for the future of Bioware, I think it's pretty much over.  EA has started or rebranded EIGHT of its studios under the "Bioware" brand, including one studio that makes SOCIAL GAMES.  In fact, EA has an very impressive lineup of "Bioware" games coming out in the near future.  We can all look forward to Bioware classics such as:

    Command and Conquer Generals 3

    Warhammer Wrath of Heroes

    And I'm sure there will be more soon.

    Face it, Bioware is no more.  They started overreaching with SWTOR by starting another studio, then sold out to EA and EA is looking to just harvest the brand name by selling crappy games to suckers that will buy anything that says "Bioware" on it.

    This sums it up perfectly.  There were probably more Mythic/Warhammer people making SWTOR as opposed to actual BIoWare folks.  The problem is that the BioWare name has already lost most, if not all, of it's market power.

    Actually, there were even some guys that were former SWG workers on this project... like the NGE guy apparently.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

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