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SWTOR vs. SWG survey

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  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member

    I find this interesting, because I can recall clearly in those days that SWG launched and afterwards, that generally SWG was considered something of a disappointment and a bit of a failure by the majority of MMO players. Too buggy, too empty and little to do, just didn't give that Star Wars feeling that many had hoped for. Nowhere near the hype and enthusiasm that arose in the general MMO playerbase when WoW got launched.

    Is this some kind of MMO history revisionism or rosy glasses effect, or is all this praise mostly coming from hardcore SWG fans and sandbox fans? I'm not saying that SWG didn't have its merits, but I'm pretty sure that SWG was in those days itself considered nowhere near the gift from heaven that many now claim it was. Back then it was overall more of a 'meh' response of many, also in comparison with the enthusiasm that people were able to muster for other MMO's in those days.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cutthecrap

    I find this interesting, because I can recall clearly in those days that SWG launched and afterwards, that generally SWG was considered something of a disappointment and a bit of a failure by the majority of MMO players. Too buggy, too empty and little to do, just didn't give that Star Wars feeling that many had hoped for. Nowhere near the hype and enthusiasm that arose in the general MMO playerbase when WoW got launched.

    Is this some kind of MMO history revisionism or rosy glasses effect, or is all this praise mostly coming from hardcore SWG fans and sandbox fans? I'm not saying that SWG didn't have its merits, but I'm pretty sure that SWG was in those days itself considered nowhere near the gift from heaven that many now claim it was. Back then it was overall more of a 'meh' response of many, also in comparison with the enthusiasm that people were able to muster for other MMO's in those days.

    At the end it was good, and compared to SWTOR it was "the gift from heaven"

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member
    Originally posted by cutthecrap

    I find this interesting, because I can recall clearly in those days that SWG launched and afterwards, that generally SWG was considered something of a disappointment and a bit of a failure by the majority of MMO players. Too buggy, too empty and little to do, just didn't give that Star Wars feeling that many had hoped for. Nowhere near the hype and enthusiasm that arose in the general MMO playerbase when WoW got launched.

    Is this some kind of MMO history revisionism or rosy glasses effect, or is all this praise mostly coming from hardcore SWG fans and sandbox fans? I'm not saying that SWG didn't have its merits, but I'm pretty sure that SWG was in those days itself considered nowhere near the gift from heaven that many now claim it was. Back then it was overall more of a 'meh' response of many, also in comparison with the enthusiasm that people were able to muster for other MMO's in those days.

    I don't know anyone who loved precu SWG that referred to it as a gift from Heaven.  I could spend 8 to 10 hours a day on my days off, playing my characters though.  

     

    Did I occasionally make a post complaining about stuff that I thought could be improved or bugs that could be fixed...sure.  Rose colored glasses?  I would consider that, but then I've played hundreds of games since the 1980's.  A handful stand out above all the others.  For mmo's, Precu  SWG was my favorite. If I was wearing rose colored glasses with anything from the past, why is it that out of hundreds there are maybe 5 that left a lasting impression.  So no, I think the rose colored glasses is not true.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by prodigaL_son

    This is the division in the MMO world that keeps us from being able to play the perfect game.  Typical Sandbox vs. Themepark discussion.

    SWG was a better game... for me.  I dont like RPGs.  I don't like linear gear grinds where I am constantly trying to convince myself that the story line is interesting and my character is important.  Thats me.

    I like pulling into a city and seeing houses out front and speeder bikes parked at the cantina.  I liked having to run to my ship and dock it.  I hate that I can whip a mount out of my pocket, or that my ship will always be on the planet I am on.  I hate going to planets and seeing creatures that are way past my level because I am "past that stage".

    RPGs are lame to me... never got into them.  They are like a bad movie litered with errands.  That is what SWTOR was to me, and trust me, I wanted to like that game so much.  I LOVE Star Wars. 

    Every MMO is way too similar.  run to green dot, kill ten rats, run back to green exclamation, blow the quest givers mind with your obvious rat killing talent and witness as he showers you in buttery amazement.  get a substantial reqward for a mindless peice of button clicking, because "HEY!  I deserve iT!"

    This is the mistake.  I don't need a lightsaber at level 10.  that is stupid.  Jedi are supremely powerful.  more powerful than most bounty hunters or smugglers, or imp agent/other BS PT class they invented to make it Rock, Paper, Scissors WoW style.  I should have to work a long ass time to my light saber... ha, I said work.  I didn't mean that.  I mean't click a lot of buttons, complete a lot of quests, learn a lot of skills, etc... you know... fun!

    Ill stop charging up my rant before I "discharge' it all over everyone.

    SWTOR was simply not immersive.  No new MMO really is, but SWTOR was especially artificial.  What were the beasts I was killing?  Wasn't the world of Star Wars a world full of large, half empty planets (much like earth now)?  Does a lvl10 made up beast sitting in a group of 3 on the side of the road in a lvl10 area really give you immersion?  You must be great at lying to yourself.  Teach me, Yoda.  I need this skill.

    My lvl10 light saber, the horrible story line (no, it wasn't good, it was corny and stupid and didn't feel Star Warsy-search your feelings, you know it to be true), The generic list of moves.  Come on!  Not to mention, when did the Jedi become a bunch of Emo pansies speaking in horrible pseudo-poem?  The great man-band, LFO once said "Billy Shakespeare wrote a whole bunch-a sawnets"... yeah, well Bioware could have used him, because there script was atrocious.  I found myself cringing and cringing.

    Then I am presented with a ship, slaves, I can only pick 3 skills, my "MOUNT", blah blah blah, same old same old. 

    SWG was different.  I was building the world, I was exploring the planets, I had to get my ship and move it around and buy a mount that I couldn't just micro-machine into my pocket and it was hard to be a Jedi.  I would walk into cities and see people drinking at the bar (I would disrobe and put on a glorious nude dance show display-yeah, im that guy), I would see people dancing in the cities (I would slap on my birthday soup and rain silky dance grooves all over tham... yeah, im that guy), and it was fun.

    I could play out my pathetic Star Wars fantasy.  I wasn't training along on some pre-determined tracks.  I was "Building a Mystery" of fantasmal dreams.  Then some awful company known as Lucas Arts did unto SWG what they did onto all things Star Wars... Mr. Lucas spread his pimply, hairy, but cheeks apart and dropped heaping loads of diah all over SWG. 

    Point is... MMOs shouldn't be like RPGs.  The players should shape the world.  They should have the opportunity to live out their fantasy in a video game.  Cyber Larp.  If you want linear story lines, go play an RPG.  Sure, not filling empty space with pointless "MOBs" may, to the moron, make landscapes seem more empty, but if you get back to the initial purpose of the MMO.  the ability to have it be as real as fake can be and you can live there, you'll find out how much substance is there.

    MMOs are dead, they wont return, because WoW decided that everything you do should grant you a reward.  That the whole point of the game was to hit max level so you can 50 man gaid at end game (zomg dont stand in the blue circle!).  There is no END GAME in a sandbox.  You just keep building.  SWTOR is done because they took a completely amazing world, a world that has different flavors for everyone, and they said... NO, this is how it is.  Well... F U.  EA and Bioware made their money and they care not what I say, but it is a damn shame we can't get a decent Sandbox Star Wars game.  Too bad SWG2 doesn't rescue us all from 14 year olds and Theme park helL!

    May the farce (<--- yep) be with you... always

     You know, I read this and I never played SWG preCU or NGE, I didn't play UO when it came out.  I've only started playing EVE six years ago,

    But in spite of never playing SWG preCU or NGE, and in spite of the fact that my first MMO expeirience was City of Heroes and not UO, I cheered.

    I didn't play UO with my brother for no other reason then I didn't like the way it looked, but I got it.  I understood it and it made sense to me.  I played Paladium, Heroes unlimitted, and Rift with my friends, I was always the GM.  When my brother told me what UO was and tried to get me to play it, I grasped why he liked it so much even though it lookd horrible to me. 

    City of heroes obviously isn't a sandbox, but for a guy that has collected comic books for as long as he can remember, who invested his entire life from the moment he could grasp a crayon to teaching himself to draw and paint pictures of places he dreamed of, who spent his evening constructing compaigns to play in Heroes unlimited, CoH was a dream come true.  It was a place to live out my super heroe fantasies, even though it wasn't a sandbox.

    You don't live out your fantasy in MMO's anymore, you live out the developers fantasy.  Preconstructed, contrived stories in this massive online world were you somehow are the heroe even though every other person you meet is a heroe as well.  How exactly is everyone a heroe in a world full of heroes, shouldn't that mean we're all ordinary people then?

    Not virtual worlds any more, but virtual roller coasters were we buy our tickets and ride the ride until it bores the utter shit out of us, and then move on to the next ride. 

    Unfortunetly i can only imagine what it would be like to play in a vitual world sandbox with the polish and attention to quality of a World of Warcraft. 

    Because for some reason, at some point, a bunch of people took it upon themselves to tell everyone else that something that had never been done before in a modern MMO wouldn't be enjoyable.  How much BS is that?

     

    While I never played SWG pre NGE, I can say that I'd resub to it if I could before I ever purshased ToR.  Thank god for EVE.

  • jacklojacklo BlackpoolPosts: 570Member
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by apocoluster

    I think the biggest problem for SoE was Lucas Arts

    That is  false.

    Raph Koster was SWGs problem.

    LA had nothing to do with worlds that were randomly generated...or no 3D X/Y axis that allowed shooting through the ground/walls/no jumping/ hovering mounts that stopped on a pebble. LA had nothing to do with randomly placed waypoints that spawned in homes not only blocking entry but also preventing completion of the quest...LA, had nothing to do with the poor database handling in the game causing them to have daily downtime...nor did LA have anything to do with the 100% sandbox portion of the game.

    The changes that came to SWG later came from Sony thinking rightly that the game would have far far far FAR more players if they closed some of the glaring gaps in it...and yes, they destroyed the game in the process, it just wasnt possible to do because of the core of the game design.

    As bad as SWTOR is, it was designed in a way that would allow virtually any kind of expansion to it...since its just a bunch of instances leading to instances. You can add an open world planet to it, or a very large open instance to the current worlds, crafting can be vastly expanded easily just by adding items and resources. The glaring lack of RPing items can take care of both the crafting and the RPing aspects missing. A player created design function can be added easily as well since the game is instanced. music playing, dancing, pazzac playing, mounted player v player races...all can be added easily.

     no 3D X/Y axis that allowed shooting through the ground/walls/no jumping/ hovering mounts that stopped on a pebble.

    Shooting through ground/walls was a problem in places but didn't happen everywhere. After playing a while you knew where this happened and could choose to avoid it or just get on with it.

    No jumping... why did you need to jump anywhere?

    Mounts stopping on a pebble... I think you exaggerate A LOT.

    In fact, you seem to exaggerate almost entirely through the whole post.

    randomly placed waypoints that spawned in homes not only blocking entry but also preventing completion of the quest

    Seriously, how many times did that happen to you? Once, twice... in how many years?

    the poor database handling in the game causing them to have daily downtime

    I have never played a game since with more stable servers and uptime. Where are you coming from?

    The rest is just praising SWTOR for what it  COULD BE.

    Fact is SWTOR is/has none of those things!

    And that's your argument against SWG?

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member
    Originally posted by Terranah

    I don't know anyone who loved precu SWG that referred to it as a gift from Heaven.  I could spend 8 to 10 hours a day on my days off, playing my characters though.  

     Sigh. A gift from heaven is ofc not literally but figuratively, should be obvious. But even if a number of posters didn't use those exact words, the words and comments with which they talk about SWG pretty much comes near to SWG being the best, most awesomest, etc MMO that existed and that they ever played.

    Did I occasionally make a post complaining about stuff that I thought could be improved or bugs that could be fixed...sure.  Rose colored glasses?  I would consider that, but then I've played hundreds of games since the 1980's.  A handful stand out above all the others.  For mmo's, Precu  SWG was my favorite. If I was wearing rose colored glasses with anything from the past, why is it that out of hundreds there are maybe 5 that left a lasting impression.  So no, I think the rose colored glasses is not true.

    We're talking about the difference of personal perception and taste, and general perception. If SWG did it for you, nice for you, each person should have their MMO they can pine dreamily away with, thinking of the blissful days they had in it.

    However, that's far from what I recall the general perception was of SWG among the overall MMO playerbase in those days itself. That wasn't anywhere near SWG being the awesomest, most splendid and gloriously entertaining example of an MMORPG around. The overall reaction back then was more of a 'meh' and 'somewhat disappointing as a Star Wars MMO', in contrast to the huge enthusiasm and praise for it of some people now; the average MMO gamer back then was a lot more moderate and neutral about SWG, and showed more enthusiasm and excitement for some other MMO's around. It's this divide between overall perception of the MMO playerbase back then and the view of some people now about how SWG was, that I was curious about.

  • jacklojacklo BlackpoolPosts: 570Member
    Originally posted by cutthecrap
    Originally posted by Terranah

    I don't know anyone who loved precu SWG that referred to it as a gift from Heaven.  I could spend 8 to 10 hours a day on my days off, playing my characters though.  

     Sigh. A gift from heaven is ofc not literally but figuratively, should be obvious. But even if a number of posters didn't use those exact words, the words and comments with which they talk about SWG pretty much comes near to SWG being the best, most awesomest, etc MMO that existed and that they ever played.

    Did I occasionally make a post complaining about stuff that I thought could be improved or bugs that could be fixed...sure.  Rose colored glasses?  I would consider that, but then I've played hundreds of games since the 1980's.  A handful stand out above all the others.  For mmo's, Precu  SWG was my favorite. If I was wearing rose colored glasses with anything from the past, why is it that out of hundreds there are maybe 5 that left a lasting impression.  So no, I think the rose colored glasses is not true.

    We're talking about the difference of personal perception and taste, and general perception. If SWG did it for you, nice for you, each person should have their MMO they can pine dreamily away with, thinking of the blissful days they had in it.

    However, that's far from what I recall the general perception was of SWG among the overall MMO playerbase in those days itself. That wasn't anywhere near SWG being the awesomest, most splendid and gloriously entertaining example of an MMORPG around. The overall reaction back then was more of a 'meh' and 'somewhat disappointing as a Star Wars MMO', in contrast to the huge enthusiasm and praise for it of some people now; the average MMO gamer back then was a lot more moderate and neutral about SWG, and showed more enthusiasm and excitement for some other MMO's around. It's this divide between overall perception of the MMO playerbase back then and the view of some people now about how SWG was, that I was curious about.

    average MMO gamer back then was a lot more moderate and neutral about SWG, and showed more enthusiasm and excitement for some other MMO's around

    I see little difference in the perceptions of players back then vs now.

    They still swamped the forums with complaints about balance changes, patches, bugs etc.

    They still criticised 'exciting' new games... Vanguard release anyone?

    SOE took a beating over the NGE and rightly so. From what I see of SWTOR, players are clammering for MAJOR changes.

    Who got it right, at least once... and which player base actually cared?

    Many people were hurt by SWG. That came from a deep love of the game which will never happen with SWTOR.

     

     

     

     

  • jacklojacklo BlackpoolPosts: 570Member
    Originally posted by afhn2110
    Originally posted by mmcguire2

    SWG is the best MMO to date... pre-CU and NEG...

     

    NGE was trash...but yes pre-cu was amazing.  That said...the EMU is a joke at this point...I mean really?  Look at the graphics compared to todays game.

    The graphics are dated now, but still appealing.

    They weren't even at full settings since I played on a slow laptop at the time.

     

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member
    Originally posted by jacklo
    I see little difference in the perceptions of players back then vs now.

    They still swamped the forums with complaints about balance changes, patches, bugs etc.

    Many people were hurt by SWG. That came from a deep love of the game which will never happen with SWTOR.

    From what I see, it's the same back then and now: a small, very active group of SWG fans have an extremely high devotion of SWG that will probably last till the day they die, while the majority of MMO gamers back then and right now couldn't care less about SWG and found it 'meh' or were/are neutral and indifferent about it. Meaning that the high, nearly ecstatic praise for SWG of that small, unrepresentative group of MMO gamers that are SWG fans doesn't reflect nor ever has the opinion of the majority of the MMO playerbase.

    Not saying that it's wrong that they liked SWG so very much and thought it awesome and maybe even the best MMO made, just that it wasn't a viewpoint that was shared by every MMO gamer, not even the majority, back then nor now.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cutthecrap
    Originally posted by jacklo
    I see little difference in the perceptions of players back then vs now.

    They still swamped the forums with complaints about balance changes, patches, bugs etc.

    Many people were hurt by SWG. That came from a deep love of the game which will never happen with SWTOR.

    From what I see, it's the same back then and now: a small, very active group of SWG fans have an extremely high devotion of SWG that will probably last till the day they die, while the majority of MMO gamers back then and right now couldn't care less about SWG and found it 'meh' or were/are neutral and indifferent about it. Meaning that the high, nearly ecstatic praise for SWG of that small, unrepresentative group of MMO gamers that are SWG fans doesn't reflect nor ever has the opinion of the majority of the MMO playerbase.

    Not saying that it's wrong that they liked SWG so very much and thought it awesome and maybe even the best MMO made, just that it wasn't a viewpoint that was shared by every MMO gamer, not even the majority, back then nor now.

    I doubt there will be as many people wanting SWTOR to return if it closes, as there are plenty of other MMOs out there similar to take its place. It does have the VOs which are unqiue but once you have played through them then there is not that much enjoyment going through them again.

    SWG was unique to other MMOs, having loads of feature other MMOs do not have, and even when people complained about stuff and quit, they found other MMOs not so satisfying, and then returned to SWG and enjoyed the game again.

  • jacklojacklo BlackpoolPosts: 570Member
    Originally posted by cutthecrap
    Originally posted by jacklo
    I see little difference in the perceptions of players back then vs now.

    They still swamped the forums with complaints about balance changes, patches, bugs etc.

    Many people were hurt by SWG. That came from a deep love of the game which will never happen with SWTOR.

    From what I see, it's the same back then and now: a small, very active group of SWG fans have an extremely high devotion of SWG that will probably last till the day they die, while the majority of MMO gamers back then and right now couldn't care less about SWG and found it 'meh' or were/are neutral and indifferent about it. Meaning that the high, nearly ecstatic praise for SWG of that small, unrepresentative group of MMO gamers that are SWG fans doesn't reflect nor ever has the opinion of the majority of the MMO playerbase.

    Not saying that it's wrong that they liked SWG so very much and thought it awesome and maybe even the best MMO made, just that it wasn't a viewpoint that was shared by every MMO gamer, not even the majority, back then nor now.

    "From what I see, it's the same back then and now: a small, very active group of SWG fans have an extremely high devotion of SWG that will probably last till the day they die"
     
     
    As small as you beleive that group to be, you won't see that kind of devotion to a game that wasn't epic in some way or another. Do you really see those feelings being extended to SWTOR?
  • Pongo_Pongo_ merced, CAPosts: 36Member Uncommon

    how can people say SWG had no content. 

    i remember wonderful times, weekends full of spending time on sunrunner.  our guild geist had a city mos erratta on tatooine.

    we would spend countless hours defending our town and bases from large groups of imperials.  calling in reinforcements from other rebel guilds. fighting huge battles, 100's of players,  beasts, AT-ST's, lagging, fighting, dieing. cloning and having a blast.

    when it was all over we didn't log off or sit in some hub, we sat around in cantinas, mending our wounds, chatting about how great or awful we fought.  who got who.  you got to know your friends, and sometimes your enemies.

    or working together as a guild to farm hide for our armorsmith, going out in groups to farm the creatures for resources.  scanning planets for that 90% spawn of 990 OQ kammis iron.

    or the hours i spent crafting space ships and all the various parts for myself, and guildies.

    or spending hours decorating my houses and ships.

    so if content is only what is provided by devs, i guess we didn't have any

    memories from playing swtor are watching some cutscreen of my character talking in some dev's predetermined story where even the dialog choices only matter depending on which lightside/darkside points you want

  • a63ntorangea63ntorange tega cay, SCPosts: 26Member
    Originally posted by Istavaan

    i played swg for 2 years and i played swtor for 4 weeks.

    not empty quoting, but i lasted 2 years in swg, and 4 hours in swtor stress test weekend.  RIP Mos Vegas, outside anchorhead, shadowfire server.

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member
    Originally posted by jacklo

     
    As small as you beleive that group to be, you won't see that kind of devotion to a game that wasn't epic in some way or another. Do you really see those feelings being extended to SWTOR?

    Let's focus on the argument that I was making, shall we, instead of derailing into all kinds of sidepaths that you're trying to go into and that I wasn't saying anything about. Since you replied on my post, I assume that it was on the arguments I was actually making. Which was that SWG by the vast majority of MMO gamers wasn't regarded on the pedestal that the more ecstatic hardcore SWG fans put it on, this is the case in 2003-2004 pre-WoW era and this is the case today. That's why I sometimes get curious by the claims I see (some) people make on this site.

    That's it. That's what my argument was about. If you reply on my posts, I'd like it if you stick to that instead of going off on your own derailments and topics, bc you don't need to reply on my posts for that.

     

    Personally however, I find it nothing to be proud of, to keep pining about a game that apparently had its best days 7-8 years ago while resenting as good as all other MMO's bc they aren't like that. Seems like people are stuck who do that. I'd have said the MMO genre goodbye and find myself a more interesting hobby instead of wasting time on one that I didn't even enjoy so much anymore, if it were me in that situation. That'd seem like the more healthy, sensible kind of choice, but to each their own. Everyone's different in that.

     

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    SWG was unique to other MMOs, having loads of feature other MMOs do not have, and even when people complained about stuff and quit, they found other MMOs not so satisfying, and then returned to SWG and enjoyed the game again.

    This is only partially true. First, there were of course very few MMO's to pick from back then. So people usually stuck around longer in an MMO, because hey, not that many options. People complained, quit, left MMO's or played other MMO's, a number returned, others stuck around in those other MMO's, how many's hard to tell. But when EQ2 and WoW arrived, the number of people that actually returned to SWG was a whole lot less than those who left. SWG, just like other MMO's, was hemorrhaging subs that didn't return. In fact it's safe to say that without WoW (and maybe EQ2, but I guess WoW the most), there'd never have been such significant bleeding away of subs, and there'd never have been the thought of an NGE to try to stop the bleeding.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cutthecrap
    Originally posted by jacklo
    I see little difference in the perceptions of players back then vs now.

    They still swamped the forums with complaints about balance changes, patches, bugs etc.

    Many people were hurt by SWG. That came from a deep love of the game which will never happen with SWTOR.

    From what I see, it's the same back then and now: a small, very active group of SWG fans have an extremely high devotion of SWG that will probably last till the day they die, while the majority of MMO gamers back then and right now couldn't care less about SWG and found it 'meh' or were/are neutral and indifferent about it. Meaning that the high, nearly ecstatic praise for SWG of that small, unrepresentative group of MMO gamers that are SWG fans doesn't reflect nor ever has the opinion of the majority of the MMO playerbase.

    Not saying that it's wrong that they liked SWG so very much and thought it awesome and maybe even the best MMO made, just that it wasn't a viewpoint that was shared by every MMO gamer, not even the majority, back then nor now.

     That would make perfect sense if half the playerbase didn't leave after the NGE.  The game had just as many people playing it as EQ ever did, and it was a drastically diffierent game from EQ. It was actually doing better then UO ever did.

    Oddly enough, after they completely overhauled the game, it drove an incredibly large portion of the playerbase away, and they were never able to recoup.  The NGE was supposed to bring in more people, yet it had the suprising effect of bringing in less, as well as driving a significant portion of the playerbase away.   

    That would be akin to blizzard turning WoW into a sandbox game, the magority of the playerbase leaving, and then you coming here and saying that no one every really enjoyed the game anyways; just a few die hard fans. 

    Even people at SoE have admitted tha the NGE was the wrong thing to do, and that the game was never able to recover.  So much so that they said they'd never do something like that again. 

    How could you possibly say that the magority of MMO gamers back then couldn't care about the game?  Especially when, prior to WoW releasing, the magority of MMO gamers were playing SWG and EQ.  500k-750k subscribers prior to WoW and the NGE and you seriously think that the magority of them didn't like the game.

    You're actually coming across as someone who personally didn't like the game, and insists that everyone else had to feel the same way you did.  I never played SWG pre NGE, I can only go by what I've read in actual news articles and interviews with the folks at SoE.  Everything I've read points to a game that had many technical issues, but still managed to maintane a really healthy subscriber base, even by todays standards.

  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 , CAPosts: 2,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by a63ntorange
    Originally posted by Istavaan

    i played swg for 2 years and i played swtor for 4 weeks.

    not empty quoting, but i lasted 2 years in swg, and 4 hours in swtor stress test weekend.  RIP Mos Vegas, outside anchorhead, shadowfire server.

    I have over 2 weeks /played time in SWTOR and maybe 10 hours in SWG. At the time pre-cu SWG was uninteresting in comparison to Neocron. Fun combat just lasts longer...

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    That would make perfect sense if half the playerbase didn't leave after the NGE.  The game had just as many people playing it as EQ ever did, and it was a drastically diffierent game from EQ. It was actually doing better then UO ever did.

    Oddly enough, after they completely overhauled the game, it drove an incredibly large portion of the playerbase away, and they were never able to recoup.  The NGE was supposed to bring in more people, yet it had the suprising effect of bringing in less, as well as driving a significant portion of the playerbase away.   

    That would be akin to blizzard turning WoW into a sandbox game, the magority of the playerbase leaving, and then you coming here and saying that no one every really enjoyed the game anyways; just a few die hard fans. 

    Even people at SoE have admitted tha the NGE was the wrong thing to do, and that the game was never able to recover.  So much so that they said they'd never do something like that again. 

    How could you possibly say that the magority of MMO gamers back then couldn't care about the game?  Especially when, prior to WoW releasing, the magority of MMO gamers were playing SWG and EQ.  500k-750k subscribers prior to WoW and the NGE and you seriously think that the magority of them didn't like the game.

    You're actually coming across as someone who personally didn't like the game, and insists that everyone else had to feel the same way you did.  I never played SWG pre NGE, I can only go by what I've read in actual news articles and interviews with the folks at SoE.  Everything I've read points to a game that had many technical issues, but still managed to maintane a really healthy subscriber base, even by todays standards.

    I don't believe I ever said that they didn't lose even more subs after the NGE. A lot of people however seemed to conveniently forget the effect that EQ2 and WoW had on other MMO's when they released, that led to an NGE in the first place. Which has been stated by the exact same people that admitted that the NGE was the wrong move. SWG at its peak had something around 300k subs or slightly over that, dipped below 200k within the year after EQ2's and WoW's launch.

    I prefer it when people stick to actual facts and not history revisioning, that's all. As for SWG back then, from what I recall SWG was doing ok, but it was hardly doing extraordinary or regarded as exceptional compared with the other few MMO's around in that time. And things quickly changed when EQ2 and WoW arrived (and to a lesser degree GW).

     

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cutthecrap
    Originally posted by jacklo

     
    As small as you beleive that group to be, you won't see that kind of devotion to a game that wasn't epic in some way or another. Do you really see those feelings being extended to SWTOR?

    Let's focus on the argument that I was making, shall we, instead of derailing into all kinds of sidepaths that you're trying to go into and that I wasn't saying anything about. Since you replied on my post, I assume that it was on the arguments I was actually making. Which was that SWG by the vast majority of MMO gamers wasn't regarded on the pedestal that the more ecstatic hardcore SWG fans put it on, this is the case in 2003-2004 pre-WoW era and this is the case today. That's why I sometimes get curious by the claims I see (some) people make on this site.

    That's it. That's what my argument was about. If you reply on my posts, I'd like it if you stick to that instead of going off on your own derailments and topics, bc you don't need to reply on my posts for that.

     

    Personally however, I find it nothing to be proud of, to keep pining about a game that apparently had its best days 7-8 years ago while resenting as good as all other MMO's bc they aren't like that. Seems like people are stuck who do that. I'd have said the MMO genre goodbye and find myself a more interesting hobby instead of wasting time on one that I didn't even enjoy so much anymore, if it were me in that situation. That'd seem like the more healthy, sensible kind of choice, but to each their own. Everyone's different in that.

     

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    SWG was unique to other MMOs, having loads of feature other MMOs do not have, and even when people complained about stuff and quit, they found other MMOs not so satisfying, and then returned to SWG and enjoyed the game again.

    This is only partially true. First, there were of course very few MMO's to pick from back then. So people usually stuck around longer in an MMO, because hey, not that many options. People complained, quit, left MMO's or played other MMO's, a number returned, others stuck around in those other MMO's, how many's hard to tell. But when EQ2 and WoW arrived, the number of people that actually returned to SWG was a whole lot less than those who left. SWG, just like other MMO's, was hemorrhaging subs that didn't return. In fact it's safe to say that without WoW (and maybe EQ2, but I guess WoW the most), there'd never have been such significant bleeding away of subs, and there'd never have been the thought of an NGE to try to stop the bleeding.

    I personally liked SWG in its final days. pre-CU was awesome, and it was only the changes that annoyed people. After all the updates, the game was pretty solid by 2011, and the best time I had with SWG was May-June 2011, and so did many others, when there was a boost of populations, and servers were becoming full, as they just did the free CTS and then granted 45 days due to the breach. People returned and were having a blast, then they decided to announce the closure of the game BEFORE people had the chance to resub.

    Also LA said that both games would run side by side, but uncertain of SWGs future after that, plus SOE were in discussions to merge servers in 2012, there was definate life for SWG for at least one more year.

    We were robbed of that extra time, and if there was not that boost in May-June 2011, then SWG shutting down would not have been so painful

    Now 5 months later, we see SWTOR failing and dropping in subs faster, as is just a simple MMO, and more like a single player game with multiplayer options.

    If SWTOR was the success it was meant to be, and it sustained the millions of subs and even gained more, and if I did not like it personally, I would not then bang on about SWG so much. SWG is now getting more of a mention due to apparant failure of SWTOR. I am not the only one, it is being said here, here, here and here for starters

  • JakardJakard 98390, WAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by mmcguire2

    SWG is the best MMO to date... pre-CU and NEG...

     

    You're kidding me, right? It's not even the best STar Wars MMO.

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member

    @superniceguy: I could be wrong of course, but I get the impression that SWG has been mentioned all the time in the months after SWTOR's launch and before the launch by SWG fans, not only just now or so. I mean, I can recall other SWG praising threads hop by from time to time. I wasn't paying that close attention though, so is what I'm saying wrong? Were SWG fans not mentioning and praising SWG in various threads before SWTOR's launch?

    If so, then I agree that you have a point.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by jacklo

     no 3D X/Y axis that allowed shooting through the ground/walls/no jumping/ hovering mounts that stopped on a pebble.

    Shooting through ground/walls was a problem in places but didn't happen everywhere. After playing a while you knew where this happened and could choose to avoid it or just get on with it.

    No jumping... why did you need to jump anywhere?

    Mounts stopping on a pebble... I think you exaggerate A LOT.

    In fact, you seem to exaggerate almost entirely through the whole post.

    No, shooting through the ground and walls happened everywhere there was a hill with a mob on the other side of it or a wall between you and the mob...even player houses.

    Why does any game need jump? because its retarded not to do it which is why they at least gave the goofy looking animation....players demanded it.

    You forgot, a LOT. Did you even play? The smallest rocks would bring you to a full stop even if you started moving again right away.

    randomly placed waypoints that spawned in homes not only blocking entry but also preventing completion of the quest

    Seriously, how many times did that happen to you? Once, twice... in how many years?

    Once, Twice the first few days after setting up my player home as close to Coronet as I could...along with a bunch of other people...I know I know, the very idea that someone could experience something you didnt...unpossible!

    the poor database handling in the game causing them to have daily downtime

    I have never played a game since with more stable servers and uptime. Where are you coming from?

    Now you are just showing you are a troll...SWG was the first MMORPG to have DAILY downtime.

     

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • jacklojacklo BlackpoolPosts: 570Member
    Originally posted by cutthecrap
    Originally posted by jacklo

     
    As small as you beleive that group to be, you won't see that kind of devotion to a game that wasn't epic in some way or another. Do you really see those feelings being extended to SWTOR?

    Let's focus on the argument that I was making, shall we, instead of derailing into all kinds of sidepaths that you're trying to go into and that I wasn't saying anything about. Since you replied on my post, I assume that it was on the arguments I was actually making. Which was that SWG by the vast majority of MMO gamers wasn't regarded on the pedestal that the more ecstatic hardcore SWG fans put it on, this is the case in 2003-2004 pre-WoW era and this is the case today. That's why I sometimes get curious by the claims I see (some) people make on this site.

    That's it. That's what my argument was about. If you reply on my posts, I'd like it if you stick to that instead of going off on your own derailments and topics, bc you don't need to reply on my posts for that.

     

    Personally however, I find it nothing to be proud of, to keep pining about a game that apparently had its best days 7-8 years ago while resenting as good as all other MMO's bc they aren't like that. Seems like people are stuck who do that. I'd have said the MMO genre goodbye and find myself a more interesting hobby instead of wasting time on one that I didn't even enjoy so much anymore, if it were me in that situation. That'd seem like the more healthy, sensible kind of choice, but to each their own. Everyone's different in that.

     

    Originally posted by superniceguy

    SWG was unique to other MMOs, having loads of feature other MMOs do not have, and even when people complained about stuff and quit, they found other MMOs not so satisfying, and then returned to SWG and enjoyed the game again.

    This is only partially true. First, there were of course very few MMO's to pick from back then. So people usually stuck around longer in an MMO, because hey, not that many options. People complained, quit, left MMO's or played other MMO's, a number returned, others stuck around in those other MMO's, how many's hard to tell. But when EQ2 and WoW arrived, the number of people that actually returned to SWG was a whole lot less than those who left. SWG, just like other MMO's, was hemorrhaging subs that didn't return. In fact it's safe to say that without WoW (and maybe EQ2, but I guess WoW the most), there'd never have been such significant bleeding away of subs, and there'd never have been the thought of an NGE to try to stop the bleeding.

    Yes I replied to your post, so I don't understand how I can be de-railing it when I'm making a point about something you said.

    Fine, you made your point. If you don't expect or want contradiction, maybe keep it to yourself next time?

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cutthecrap
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    That would make perfect sense if half the playerbase didn't leave after the NGE.  The game had just as many people playing it as EQ ever did, and it was a drastically diffierent game from EQ. It was actually doing better then UO ever did.

    Oddly enough, after they completely overhauled the game, it drove an incredibly large portion of the playerbase away, and they were never able to recoup.  The NGE was supposed to bring in more people, yet it had the suprising effect of bringing in less, as well as driving a significant portion of the playerbase away.   

    That would be akin to blizzard turning WoW into a sandbox game, the magority of the playerbase leaving, and then you coming here and saying that no one every really enjoyed the game anyways; just a few die hard fans. 

    Even people at SoE have admitted tha the NGE was the wrong thing to do, and that the game was never able to recover.  So much so that they said they'd never do something like that again. 

    How could you possibly say that the magority of MMO gamers back then couldn't care about the game?  Especially when, prior to WoW releasing, the magority of MMO gamers were playing SWG and EQ.  500k-750k subscribers prior to WoW and the NGE and you seriously think that the magority of them didn't like the game.

    You're actually coming across as someone who personally didn't like the game, and insists that everyone else had to feel the same way you did.  I never played SWG pre NGE, I can only go by what I've read in actual news articles and interviews with the folks at SoE.  Everything I've read points to a game that had many technical issues, but still managed to maintane a really healthy subscriber base, even by todays standards.

    I don't believe I ever said that they didn't lose even more subs after the NGE. A lot of people however seemed to conveniently forget the effect that EQ2 and WoW had on other MMO's when they released, that led to an NGE in the first place. Which has been stated by the exact same people that admitted that the NGE was the wrong move. SWG that at its peak had something around 300k subs or slightly over that, dipped below 200k within the year after EQ2's and WoW's launch.

    I prefer it when people stick to actual facts and not history revisioning, that's all. As for SWG back then, from what I recall SWG was doing ok, but it was hardly doing extraordinary or regarded as exceptional compared with the other few MMO's around in that time. And things quickly changed when EQ2 and WoW arrived (and to a lesser degree GW).

     

     And yet you're ignoring a very important correlation here.

    The players weren't leaving in droves prior to the NGE, they left AFTER.  When the company of the game says that thier attempt to make the game more like WoW is the reason everyone started leaving, I'm inclined to believe them and not some guy on the interenet who thinks his opinion is right.

    You're falling for that same trap as everyone else.  WoW didn't pull droves of people away from existing MMO's, there weren't a lot to begin with, WoW brought in NEW mmo gamers.  Some left, not the magority, and not so many that existing MMO's weren't able to replenish.  I was playing Lineage 2 when wow released.  There were just as many people playing after WoW released.  Some went to play WoW, but it wasn't most, the mogority, or even what you could resonibly call a lot.  WoW was a completely diffierent game, and people playing L2 were playing it for very specific reasons, and WoW didn't offer anything close to the same kind of gameplay.  The exact same thing for SWG.

    MMO's weren't shutting down left and right when WoW released. 

    The NGE wasn't an attempt to get back players, they were trying to get MORE players, and it had the opposite effect. 

     

  • superniceguysuperniceguy AnchorheadPosts: 2,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cutthecrap

    @superniceguy: I could be wrong of course, but I get the impression that SWG has been mentioned all the time in the months after SWTOR's launch and before the launch by SWG fans, not only just now or so. I mean, I can recall other SWG praising threads hop by from time to time. I wasn't paying that close attention though, so is what I'm saying wrong? Were SWG fans not mentioning and praising SWG in various threads before SWTOR's launch?

    If so, then I agree that you have a point.

    Dunno too much as was too busy playing SWG to post beforehand but was annoyed by the deceipt and resented SWTOR for "replacing" SWG, instead of SWG naturally dying off or going F2P - If loads of current SOE customers played swg may-june, making3 more servers go from light to full  then plenty more would have played if it went F2P.

    There would have been other threads praising SWG always, but I have not seen so many posts about SWG as these past few months, and even from those kind of not caring SWG shutdown in DEC.who was laughing at people missing SWG. SWTOR was expected to be the "Gift from the Gods"  and it has not been

  • cutthecrapcutthecrap nobusinessofyoursPosts: 600Member
    Originally posted by jacklo

    Yes I replied to your post, so I don't understand how I can be de-railing it when I'm making a point about something you said.

    Fine, you made your point. If you don't expect or want contradiction, maybe keep it to yourself next time?

    Christ. Ok, here it goes: I wasn't talking about SWTOR or NGE, I was talking about the perception of SWG throughout the MMO playerbase before any NGE ever hit the scene. You were the one that went off on sidetracks and felt the need to introduce SWTOR and NGE that had nothing to do with my argument in the post you quoted, completely ignoring or misunderstanding what I was talking about. Next time when you feel the need to go off on sidetracks into your own derailments, do so without misusing and quoting my posts that have nothing to do at all with whatever point you're trying to make.

    Is that clear enough?

     

    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by cutthecrap
    Originally posted by Uhwop

    That would make perfect sense if half the playerbase didn't leave after the NGE.  The game had just as many people playing it as EQ ever did, and it was a drastically diffierent game from EQ. It was actually doing better then UO ever did.

    Oddly enough, after they completely overhauled the game, it drove an incredibly large portion of the playerbase away, and they were never able to recoup.  The NGE was supposed to bring in more people, yet it had the suprising effect of bringing in less, as well as driving a significant portion of the playerbase away.   

    That would be akin to blizzard turning WoW into a sandbox game, the magority of the playerbase leaving, and then you coming here and saying that no one every really enjoyed the game anyways; just a few die hard fans. 

    Even people at SoE have admitted tha the NGE was the wrong thing to do, and that the game was never able to recover.  So much so that they said they'd never do something like that again. 

    How could you possibly say that the magority of MMO gamers back then couldn't care about the game?  Especially when, prior to WoW releasing, the magority of MMO gamers were playing SWG and EQ.  500k-750k subscribers prior to WoW and the NGE and you seriously think that the magority of them didn't like the game.

    You're actually coming across as someone who personally didn't like the game, and insists that everyone else had to feel the same way you did.  I never played SWG pre NGE, I can only go by what I've read in actual news articles and interviews with the folks at SoE.  Everything I've read points to a game that had many technical issues, but still managed to maintane a really healthy subscriber base, even by todays standards.

    I don't believe I ever said that they didn't lose even more subs after the NGE. A lot of people however seemed to conveniently forget the effect that EQ2 and WoW had on other MMO's when they released, that led to an NGE in the first place. Which has been stated by the exact same people that admitted that the NGE was the wrong move. SWG that at its peak had something around 300k subs or slightly over that, dipped below 200k within the year after EQ2's and WoW's launch.

    I prefer it when people stick to actual facts and not history revisioning, that's all. As for SWG back then, from what I recall SWG was doing ok, but it was hardly doing extraordinary or regarded as exceptional compared with the other few MMO's around in that time. And things quickly changed when EQ2 and WoW arrived (and to a lesser degree GW).

     

     And yet you're ignoring a very important correlation here.

    The players weren't leaving in droves prior to the NGE, they left AFTER.  When the company of the game says that thier attempt to make the game more like WoW is the reason everyone started leaving, I'm inclined to believe them and not some guy on the interenet who thinks his opinion is right. 

    Wrong on both accounts. Players were leaving in droves prior to the NGE AND after the NGE. Bleeding subs was significant since EQ2/WoW launch, which resulted in an attempt to turn the tide, the NGE move. In fact, this has been stated literally by the exact same company guys you were quoting.

    So, those are the facts: SOE company guys stating themselves that they were hemorrhaging subs since EQ2/WoW and admitting that this was a very important cause for them going into an NGE change. And the subs themselves that for most AAA MMO's showed a significant drop end of 2004/course of 2005, including those of SWG but not only limited to SWG. I'm inclined to believe facts like those instead of MMO revisionism that everything was blissful and almost perfect and SWG the best, most popular and loved MMO around (yes, I know, hyperbole) before the NGE. 

     

    You're falling for that same trap as everyone else.  WoW didn't pull droves of people away from existing MMO's, there weren't a lot to begin with, WoW brought in NEW mmo gamers.  Some left, not the magority, and not so many that existing MMO's weren't able to replenish.  I was playing Lineage 2 when wow released.  There were just as many people playing after WoW released.  Some went to play WoW, but it wasn't most, the mogority, or even what you could resonibly call a lot.  WoW was a completely diffierent game, and people playing L2 were playing it for very specific reasons, and WoW didn't offer anything close to the same kind of gameplay.  The exact same thing for SWG.

    MMO's weren't shutting down left and right when WoW released. 

    The NGE wasn't an attempt to get back players, they were trying to get MORE players, and it had the opposite effect.  

    WoW brought in new MMO gamers, AND it attracted hordes of MMO gamers of existing MMO's. Saying otherwise is a case of MMO history revisionism. I suggest you do some more research into that timeperiod and articles of that time. 

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