Well, if we want to be honest about cash shops we need to wonder how big a monetary impact the companies that support them tink they'll have on their game. For example:
I have the feeling that the cosmetic shop will have a substancial impact on TSW, simply because there are no tier of armor etc and the looks is something that you make. So making your character look cool will be a mini game of itself for a lot of gamers.
Same thing with GW2. The cash shop will be expected to play a substancial role in financing the game beyond the upfront box price. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if both those games eventually sell adventure packs in the way LOTRO is selling its expansion.
Coming to Tera now, one set of skins seems like a drop in the ocean regarding financing anything in the game. Only thing that it could possibly serve right now is as a tool to gauge the market and whether Tera players would consider buying skins not found in the game.
In this regard, there are games that will have an active cash shop and games that don't have one. I don't think that the current skin selection qualifies in any shape or form as a cash shop, or in any case is in the same league with LOTRO's or TSW or even GW2 cash shops. That may of course change in the future, but at this point in time, we can safely still say that Tera has no real cash shop.
Keep in mind that the items offered are only for the US market. Surprisingly, nothing of the kind is offered in the EU. On the contrary, it seems that Frogster is giving away (promised anyway) a set of skins to all their pre-order and early order customers, while having no single skin sold in their shop. For now at least.
Seems like indeed Tera EU is following a different path than Tera US regarding selling skins. From their CR:
Greetings,
Thanks for your concern Lionna, but we're alright
We're currently not planning on implementing an item shop, that's why we haven't opened one up like EnMasse. We might offer vanity items and similar in the future, but for now there are no plans regarding this. Premium Services are a different matter, and they will be introduced in Europe too. We have no specific time planned on when to offer these services, but be assured that we'll tell you once they're available!
But "again" there's very little evidence that these extra items would be in the game if it wasn't for these cash shops.
Wasn't in EQ, EQ II, Lord of the Rings, Lineage 2, Age of Conan, Vangaurd, Ryzom, and any number of games that were released.
This is kind of a vague argument to make Sov...
Why does that line of thinking even matter?
The fact is that it is in game rewards gated off from the player unless they pay extra money. In a sub game that just isn't acceptable to me.
As ever, Play to Achieve > Pay to Achieve.
GW2 is playing it the smartest... they let me fully play to achieve while letting the other guy pay pay pay.
*edited for clarity, though enjoyed the read.
I think it's important to note that I'm not dismissive of these concerns.
I get that Sov.
Game companies need to make more money. They just do. For better or worse game companies need more money and $15 per month isn't cutting it. It's been proven that cash shops work.
Now, honestly, THIS perspective I consider just wrong.
They don't need more money, they want more money. Huge difference.
Subs have a long proven history of being protiable. It's just a proven fact that games can be run on a sub model alone. Look at Aventurine. Hell, SOE existed on and developed multiple games on sub revenue, each costing millions to make.
Subs ARE profitable, they are just not AS profitable. It has been proven that subs work.
And I do not consider extra profit (especially when using such an exploitative hidden cost model as cash shops) a good enough reason to go down this road. Not as a gamer anyhow, not when the long term effects of cash shop game design fundamentally changes the nature of the games we play. As a producer or investor I am sure I would love it.
So the time is now. Because I don't see the argument that "these things should be in game" really carrying any weight other than that's what people are clinging to. I get it. But that's not the reality at present.
The current 'reality' has been created and informed by the very people selling the pure profit model and I don't buy in to it myself.... and as for not debating against it because someone else tells me 'that's how it is'.. well, no.
No amount of peer pressure will change me from a gamer that enjoys play to achieve games into a virtual consumer that enjoys buying my in game rewards in pay to achieve virtual shopping malls.
Like I say though, GW2 have got the model right. They let me play to achieve while letting the shoppers go crazy with their credit cards... they don't gate any of the cash shop content off from me if I am willing to play and earn it, and they don't charge me a sub.
Actually if you can put a blame on GW2, is on how it legitimised the presence of cash shops in modern mmorpgs. While their model may not be as obtrusive as other F2P cash shop games out there, they and their fanbase gave numerous excuses to cash shops, abolished the P2P model despite its numerous pros and paved the market for the triple dippers.
Or would anybody think that a monetary model like TSW is attempting would fly pre GW2 hype storm?
GW2 may influence (when it launches) positively mmorpgs in terms of content and design, but they have irrevocably damaged them in every other aspect.
Actually if you can put a blame on GW2, is on how it legitimised the presence of cash shops in modern mmorpgs.
Cash shops have been legitmised by a concerted effort all across the internet by the sellers of the model for a long time now. I don't think it's fair to try and lay that blame at ANet's door.
Like I say above though, I do prefer their model IF I have to have cash shops in these games... they let me access everything in game by playing and achieving.
Actually if you can put a blame on GW2, is on how it legitimised the presence of cash shops in modern mmorpgs. While their model may not be as obtrusive as other F2P cash shop games out there, they and their fanbase gave numerous excuses to cash shops, abolished the P2P model despite its numerous pros and paved the market for the triple dippers.
Or would anybody think that a monetary model like TSW is attempting would fly pre GW2 hype storm?
GW2 may influence (when it launches) positively mmorpgs in terms of content and design, but they have irrevocably damaged them in every other aspect.
???
There were cash shops in mmorpg way before Gw2. Why do you want to blame Gw2? It's B2P and it's not even a gear based mmorpg so it cannot be p2w anyway.
And Gw1 had a similar cosmetic and convenience cash shop too.
Originally posted by Xasapis
Well, if we want to be honest about cash shops we need to wonder how big a monetary impact the companies that support them tink they'll have on their game. For example:
I have the feeling that the cosmetic shop will have a substancial impact on TSW, simply because there are no tier of armor etc and the looks is something that you make. So making your character look cool will be a mini game of itself for a lot of gamers.
Same thing with GW2. The cash shop will be expected to play a substancial role in financing the game beyond the upfront box price. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if both those games eventually sell adventure packs in the way LOTRO is selling its expansion.
Coming to Tera now, one set of skins seems like a drop in the ocean regarding financing anything in the game. Only thing that it could possibly serve right now is as a tool to gauge the market and whether Tera players would consider buying skins not found in the game.
In this regard, there are games that will have an active cash shop and games that don't have one. I don't think that the current skin selection qualifies in any shape or form as a cash shop, or in any case is in the same league with LOTRO's or TSW or even GW2 cash shops. That may of course change in the future, but at this point in time, we can safely still say that Tera has no real cash shop.
Keep in mind that the items offered are only for the US market. Surprisingly, nothing of the kind is offered in the EU. On the contrary, it seems that Frogster is giving away (promised anyway) a set of skins to all their pre-order and early order customers, while having no single skin sold in their shop. For now at least.
A cash shop is a cash shop. The only difference is between a cosmetic and convenience (random exp boosts) cash shop and a cash shop where you can buy real gameplay advantages.
Tsw, Gw2 and US Tera have the first kind of cash shop.
K-Tera has the second type of cash shop (Selling potions, equip, crystal protection etc.)
Btw a cosmetic cash shop gets huge revenues to a mmorpg. Selling skins is a very good business.
There were cash shops in mmorpg way before Gw2. Why do you want to blame Gw2? It's B2P and it's not even a gear based mmorpg so it cannot be p2w anyway.
And Gw1 had a similar cosmetic and convenience cash shop too.
Keep your unnecessary hate in check.
Hardly a hater. I like the game and plan to play it from day one.
That doesn't change the fact that their fanbase was instrumental in creating the environment where cash shops and triple dippers can thrive. Indeed, games had cash shops before the advent of GW2, however they were sneered by the community as second rate or promoting unbalanced gameplay or just plain offering content outside the normal monetary model. All these changed when the old timers seeing their savior in GW2 gameplay forgoe any sense and advocated any features the game has as gospel, while damning anything that is not there, regardless of it being good or not.
People would like to forget these huge threads about how cash shops are the best thing ever, how they give choice and all the excuses people were making up to justify their presence in their favorite game. Six months ago? Any game with a cash shop was seen as a pariah ... exactly like this thread is trying to make Tera look like. Whether Tera has actually a cash shop is debatable at this point, but the zero tolerance towards cash shops flew out of the window when people were talking about GW2 instead.
Tera should crash and burn because it has a "cash shop", isn't this the point of this thread? Yet the very same people find a thousant excuses to protect their favorite mmorpg from the "haters".
Oh, and Vesavius, I'm not putting the blame on Anet, I'm putting the blame on GW2 apologists. Those people who came into this part of the forum to yell "See, see, Tera has a cash shop too!!! Told you so!!!!"
Do you want to see a similarly herd like behavior? All you need is go and see how Diablo advocates are defending the online only for single player game DRM model.
If you had just checked the gw2 forums (gw2 guru and others) you would've have noticed the huge massive shitstorm that raged on for days when the cash shop was revealed. And there were ironically quite few Tera fans being sarcastic about it. Now it comes around. Must be karma.
But the point is that there is no way that "cash shops are ok since Gw2". People raged about cash shops before, they are raging now and they will rage about them even in the future. Gw2 or not.
Yea, I saw the announcement about their "premium services" on the login page and was definitely disappointed. I think Tera is a fun game but it's questionable whether it's even worth a monthly fee, adding a cash shop at this stage was a bad move in my opinion and it's certainly making me question whether I want to continue to support En Masse with my $15 a month.
There are so many decent games out there and a bunch of promising ones on the horizon. If you give me B2P or F2P, I will gladly deal with your cash shop but P2P + cash shop is getting ridiculous.
This just made my day. Want a western "hardcore" game go play Diablo 3 with a real auction-house. Don't like asian mmo's? Stay away from Tera. It's that simple.
And I hope EME adds those lovely HP pots into the cash-shop too. Remember, it's all about the money and the extra "perks" that comes with subscription/premimum cash shops!
While I understand why most of you are upset about the cash shops in sub games, I still feel that this is where more companies are going. I expect that most companies will start making their games with cash shops in mind. At least I think this feature is going to be more for MMO's, however even some console RPG's offer cash shops now or DLC.
Here is an example, Tales of Graces F offers a cs for cosmetics, expansions and even level increases. I think the sooner you guys realize that the gaming world is moving towards cash shops the easier it will be on all of you. Personally I dont mind having the ability to buy cosmetic items in CS I do it for some skins in LoL and have no issue with it.
I had an issue with cs originally too, but i chose to support cs as long as it was aesthetic changes only and did no give anyone an edge. I prefer the old school method ...but then again were in 2012 and most companies no longer use it.
This just made my day. Want a western "hardcore" game go play Diablo 3 with a real auction-house. Don't like asian mmo's? Stay away from Tera. It's that simple.
And I hope EME adds those lovely HP pots into the cash-shop too. Remember, it's all about the money and the extra "perks" that comes with subscription/premimum cash shops!
If this "makes your day" you have some troubling interests and reasons for enjoyment.
Oh, and Vesavius, I'm not putting the blame on Anet, I'm putting the blame on GW2 apologists. Those people who came into this part of the forum to yell "See, see, Tera has a cash shop too!!! Told you so!!!!"
Do you want to see a similarly herd like behavior? All you need is go and see how Diablo advocates are defending the online only for single player game DRM model.
ahh, ok, fair enough.
I personaly am not an apologist for any cash shop... at best I will be ignoring GW2's unless I can afford to buy from it with in game gold.
I guess at least they support me as a gamer fully though, rather then milk me just as a shopper.
I just find it funny that TERA and TSW both an Subscribed based MMO have Cash Shops and you got defenders left and right trying to justify it.
But when you have GW2 which is B2P with a cash shop then its totally wrong and all those defending are GW2 fanboy or fangirl.
I haven't done any research yet into TSW and TERA cash shops, are the items still buyable with ingame currency, because if it is, then it shouldn't be a problem for all the die hard players whom can play hours upon hours and still get full access to the game they are paying a monthly payment for because they have accumlated enough in game currency to access the cash shop.
But if the items in these cash shops are only RMT then there should be a louder outcry than it is currently.
Because when you pay for something monthly, you should have full access to the entire game. Thats just my opinion.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I just find it funny that TERA and TSW both an Subscribed based MMO have Cash Shops and you got defenders left and right trying to justify it.
But when you have GW2 which is B2P with a cash shop then its totally wrong and all those defending are GW2 fanboy or fangirl.
What if you don't think that there is a problem with either cash shop as none of them provide any sort of advantage to the player?
Do I think that someone is easily parted from their money if they spend 20% of the retail cost of the game on a new weapon skin? Absolutely. Do I think that is a problem for anyone but that individual? Nope.
"I spoke with a GM and asked him what the purchase of the game and subscription entitles us to. I emphasized on the subscription because I assumed what purchasing of the the game entitles us to. If you doubt this chat log then I can provide a screeny. I'll just assume you guys trust me.
Chat starts:
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Hi, my name is GM Fing.Fang.Foom. How may I help you? Ukaei .: Hello, I'd like to know what buying the game and paying a monthly fee entitles me to. I am a bit confused because I don't understand why I'm being charged extra for content such as the vanity items. =/ Ukaei .: I know its optional but still.. its content that should probably have been part of the game. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: What are you being charge extra for? Ukaei .: Sorry, wasn't clear on that. I mean, like, why is content being taken out to be resold. Doesn't the game purchase and monthly fee cover all content? Including those vanity items? GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Was it content that already existed that you are referring to? Ukaei .: Ultimately, I'd like to know what purchasing the game entitles me to. Ukaei .: And the subscription. Ukaei .: Yeah, them vanity items. Obviously they were part of the game client, and with a stroke of a button it became unlocked in game. Doesn't my purchase of the game and subcription cover these vanity items? GM Fing.Fang.Foom: What items? Ukaei .: The Vanity items you guys have on sale that rival end game items. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: They are not the end game items though. They are additional content we will continue to offer exclusive items from time to time the ones you are referring to are only available for a limited time. Ukaei .: I said they just rival the end game content.. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: They are simply for people who want to stand out from the crowd special items that not everyone will have. Ukaei .: But shouldn't the purchase of the game and subcription over for these items? Ukaei .: cover* GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Not if there new additions as it says the game is ever evolving. Ukaei .: So my subscription doesn't cover for new content? Ukaei .: Will I be charged for future patches and bug fixes? GM Fing.Fang.Foom: I didn't say that there is plenty of new content to come. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: You are no being charge for anything unless you want those vanity items in question. Ukaei .: Okay.. what exactly does a subscription for $14.99 entitle a customer then? Ukaei .: And, isn't vanity items new content? Under what catergory then vanity items fall under. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Access to the servers is what you subscription is for. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: *your Ukaei .: Just access? Could you guys possibly charge me for patches in the future? Omghosh.. You guys should tell people right away what their money is entitling them to. =/ GM Fing.Fang.Foom: I highly doubt we would charge for a patch since it is an update to fix problem or add new content. That doesn't restrict us from selling special items for those who want them. If you don't want them that's okay. There are plenty of in game items that are even harder to get just by playing. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: *Novelty items are not trade-able, sell-able, or discard-able. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: We have added these options by popular demand for such services. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: I can give you the link to the terms of service if you would like. Ukaei .: Just access to the servers... you guys are no better than some money hungry f2p game then. Basically, if my sub is only paying for server access, then I can possibly be barred from accessing certain game content, for instance, the vanity items. I purchased the game due to its wonderful aesthetic character looks, and yet, it seems I'm being limited to what I can access. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: You taking what I said out of context. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: No one is barring you from anyhting? GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Those didn't exist before GM Fing.Fang.Foom: It is in the terms of service under # 7 Service Interruptions and Changes to TERA Ukaei .: They were available in K Tear, right? Or are you guys developing items for vanity over content for free? What will you guys prioritize. New content that's free or vanity items. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: We are not charging you any thing extra. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: K Tera is not affiliated with En Masse. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: NHN is the company that has the license to that. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Frogster has Europe GM Fing.Fang.Foom: 3 separate entities. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: That's why we are all on different servers. Ukaei .: I understand. However, what are you guys prioritizing; free content for everyone or Vanity items. From what I can tell you guys are prioritizing Vanity over free content, right? Ukaei .: I'm assuming you guys have been working on Vanity Items for over these past two weeks. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Where are you seeing this on our web site? GM Fing.Fang.Foom: I am confused. If you would like me to pass along a suggestion about the game I can do that. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Let me ask you this then. Have you played other MMOs? Ukaei .: Yeah, I am too.. Very confused and shocked. Suggestion: Get rid of the Vanity Cash shop, or tell people up front what their purchase of the game and subscription entails them to before they invest in the game. Ukaei .: Yeah I have; WOW. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Ok and wow charges do they not? GM Fing.Fang.Foom: For a wide array of things. I am not trying to compare us to WOW but Should we not charge for expansion packs then?
Ukaei .: Mounts and pets is their motto, right? Not item contents that psychologically and significantly impacts you're game play. Ukaei .: Charge for expansions but include all content. Ukaei .: Please. Ukaei .: I'll gladly pay more to have access to all content. Ukaei .: On top of access to server also all content as monthly subscription. Ukaei .: How about that suggestion? GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Sure I can pass that suggestion along if you would like. Ukaei .: $20 or $30, as long as I fully have access to the game. Alright, I think I'll ponder and contemplate whether Tera will have a future in my life. You've been great and honest, I really appreciate that. GM Fing.Fang.Foom: No worries I can do that. "
Actually if you can put a blame on GW2, is on how it legitimised the presence of cash shops in modern mmorpgs. While their model may not be as obtrusive as other F2P cash shop games out there, they and their fanbase gave numerous excuses to cash shops, abolished the P2P model despite its numerous pros and paved the market for the triple dippers.
Or would anybody think that a monetary model like TSW is attempting would fly pre GW2 hype storm?
GW2 may influence (when it launches) positively mmorpgs in terms of content and design, but they have irrevocably damaged them in every other aspect.
loooool. we need always find any reason to say bad about GW2 even if dont make any sense...
"I spoke with a GM and asked him what the purchase of the game and subscription entitles us to. I emphasized on the subscription because I assumed what purchasing of the the game entitles us to. If you doubt this chat log then I can provide a screeny. I'll just assume you guys trust me.
Chat starts:
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Hi, my name is GM Fing.Fang.Foom. How may I help you? Ukaei .: Hello, I'd like to know what buying the game and paying a monthly fee entitles me to. I am a bit confused because I don't understand why I'm being charged extra for content such as the vanity items...
Yay for some jackass wasting a GM's time when he could be handling real petitions for players that have an actual problem. Instead he's got some wannabe hack journalist badgering him for the perfect soundbyte to back his warped little agenda, as if a GM is an authority on how funds, resources and dev time is allocated.
Yay for Ukaei, a troglodyte that should be thanking that GM for being patient with his stupidity instead of throwing that GM under the bus.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am actually starting to think that the makers of Tera are the most brilliant people on the planet...
Take a PoS story
Take generic gameplay, quests, crafting
Steal combat almost directly from another game but make dodge its own "button" instead of a directional push
Throw it all into a massive world built with a very old graphic engine but hide it with cutesy anime graphics
and instead of making it free 2 play like its quality calls for, sell it WITH a sub requirement and then open up a free 2 play style shop and make even MORE money off of people desperate to cling to a new game.
Brilliant!
Just plain brilliant...seriously, that they could get that many people to BUY a game with such a crap story and generic F2P qulaity gameplay outside of Asia..I mean even IN Asia it was called BAD...and still retain that many fanboys...it really is amazing...I bow to them. the amount of bending you over factors here...and still having THAT many even after adding another going to bend you over to do you over and over again...and STILL!
OMG...I feel like doing a Cartman and running around in circles really fast screaming "YOU GUYS YOU GUYS SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY YOU GUYS!" over how amazed I am.
Hmm, actually you do sound as misguided as Cartman is portrayed on the show. Perhaps your opinion isn't the only one out there and other people don't view the game through your same goggle?
But I understand you can't afford it, no problem, a good B2P will come along soon I'm told.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Mythic is a company, it's aim is to make money, let's not be naieve about this. The way they made money was via subs and via expansions. Those expansions did indeed provide you with new more powerful items and yes they made you more competative.
I see you add expansion there. You have rationalized that they are okay.
An expansion is content not available for the sub fee.
An expansion is made by diverting resources that your fifteen bucks paid for to create content to sell back to you.
Expansion content is only available to those who bought the expansion and often not otherwise available to those who did not.
Where's the difference other than one is a package and the other is individual items. Wait... the difference is that expansions often are the definition of pay-to-win.
The only argument that you have presented is that you have rationalized that expansions are okay, supporting it with the irrational statement that they aren't bad because they are bigger than individual purchases.
The difference lies in the sheer amount of content per dollar in an xpack (usually) compared to a seperate cash shop item, if we take wow for example a sparkly pony mount costs 25 dollars.. while an expack costs 40 which contains over 10 mounts a slew of pets not to mention the increased lvl cap new dungeons raids yadayada but even on mounts alone it beats it by far in terms of value per currency.
Your personal perception of value of a WOW mount vs the price of an expansion is subjective at best, but overall irrelevant to the discussion.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hmm, actually you do sound as misguided as Cartman is portrayed on the show. Perhaps your opinion isn't the only one out there and other people don't view the game through your same goggle?
But I understand you can't afford it, no problem, a good B2P will come along soon I'm told.
I didnt expect a fanboy would actually refute any actual points with that ending in there and just go for a direct insult. Fanboys will be fanboys, completely inept in defending the undefendable.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Yay for some jackass wasting a GM's time when he could be handling real petitions for players that have an actual problem. Instead he's got some wannabe hack journalist badgering him for the perfect soundbyte to back his warped little agenda, as if a GM is an authority on how funds, resources and dev time is allocated.
Yay for Ukaei, a troglodyte that should be thanking that GM for being patient with his stupidity instead of throwing that GM under the bus.
I love how people always call things they dont agree with "non-REAL issues". A GM is a way for a customer to contact the company, issue a complaint and ask questions. Everyone that buys the game is a CUSTOMER. ALL Customers have a right to complain or request information.
So, Troglodyte...go hide your head in the sand like a good little tool and ignore the thing happening to your exposed backside and let the real men and women with a brain of our own deal with things. Sheep...accept their fate...so stop pretending to be the big bad wolf.
Yes, everyone that buys the game is a customer, however there are proper channels for everything. Are you actually trying to argue that Ukaei wasn't wasting this GM's time with an agenda-driven attempt to coax the exact response he wanted to post to the forums? Are you saying that this exchange, one that the GM is actually not qualified enough or informed enough to answer, was a legitimate use of the support representative's time?
Your response was amusing. I never said he shouldn't be allowed to express his concerns. I stated, rather clearly, that Ukaei was wasting this particular channel of support's time with an issue that this particular channel of support cannot resolve.
Your rage against the machine seems to have you a bit blind to the fact that Ukaei had an agenda, or do you really feel his opening question was genuine? If you do feel it was genuine, do you agree that it is false, or do you really feel he was being charged for the extra content?
Rage on,boy
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes, everyone that buys the game is a customer, however there are proper channels for everything. Are you actually trying to argue that Ukaei wasn't wasting this GM's time with an agenda-driven attempt to coax the exact response he wanted to post to the forums? Are you saying that this exchange, one that the GM is actually not qualified enough or informed enough to answer, was a legitimate use of the support representative's time?
Your rage against the machine seems to have you a bit blind to the fact that Ukaei had an agenda, or do you really feel his opening question was genuine? If you do feel it was genuine, do you agree that it is false, or do you really feel he was being charged for the extra content?
Rage on,boy
Nope, much easier to assume he planned out a line of questions to get a response...to post...on forums...for attention.
Right...rage on...boy...derp durp hurr durr!
darn...should have done that with a tinfoil hat on.
Oh wait I know, Ukaei is part of an internationla plot to waste GMs time to post messages on forums to turn the world against the game!
YEAH THATS IT!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Yes, everyone that buys the game is a customer, however there are proper channels for everything. Are you actually trying to argue that Ukaei wasn't wasting this GM's time with an agenda-driven attempt to coax the exact response he wanted to post to the forums? Are you saying that this exchange, one that the GM is actually not qualified enough or informed enough to answer, was a legitimate use of the support representative's time?
Your rage against the machine seems to have you a bit blind to the fact that Ukaei had an agenda, or do you really feel his opening question was genuine? If you do feel it was genuine, do you agree that it is false, or do you really feel he was being charged for the extra content?
Rage on,boy
Nope, much easier to assume he planned out a line of questions to get a response...to post...on forums...for attention.
Right...rage on...boy...derp durp hurr durr!
darn...should have done that with a tinfoil hat on.
Oh wait I know, Ukaei is part of an internationla plot to waste GMs time to post messages on forums to turn the world against the game!
YEAH THATS IT!
If you don't see it, then that's fine... and expected.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Well, if we want to be honest about cash shops we need to wonder how big a monetary impact the companies that support them tink they'll have on their game. For example:
Seems like indeed Tera EU is following a different path than Tera US regarding selling skins. From their CR:
Greetings,
Thanks for your concern Lionna, but we're alright
We're currently not planning on implementing an item shop, that's why we haven't opened one up like EnMasse. We might offer vanity items and similar in the future, but for now there are no plans regarding this.
Premium Services are a different matter, and they will be introduced in Europe too. We have no specific time planned on when to offer these services, but be assured that we'll tell you once they're available!
Thank you,
Sealath
Found https://forum.tera-europe.com/showthread.php?t=88948&p=1656421&viewfull=1#post1656421
Actually if you can put a blame on GW2, is on how it legitimised the presence of cash shops in modern mmorpgs. While their model may not be as obtrusive as other F2P cash shop games out there, they and their fanbase gave numerous excuses to cash shops, abolished the P2P model despite its numerous pros and paved the market for the triple dippers.
Or would anybody think that a monetary model like TSW is attempting would fly pre GW2 hype storm?
GW2 may influence (when it launches) positively mmorpgs in terms of content and design, but they have irrevocably damaged them in every other aspect.
Cash shops have been legitmised by a concerted effort all across the internet by the sellers of the model for a long time now. I don't think it's fair to try and lay that blame at ANet's door.
Like I say above though, I do prefer their model IF I have to have cash shops in these games... they let me access everything in game by playing and achieving.
???
There were cash shops in mmorpg way before Gw2. Why do you want to blame Gw2? It's B2P and it's not even a gear based mmorpg so it cannot be p2w anyway.
And Gw1 had a similar cosmetic and convenience cash shop too.
A cash shop is a cash shop. The only difference is between a cosmetic and convenience (random exp boosts) cash shop and a cash shop where you can buy real gameplay advantages.
Tsw, Gw2 and US Tera have the first kind of cash shop.
K-Tera has the second type of cash shop (Selling potions, equip, crystal protection etc.)
Btw a cosmetic cash shop gets huge revenues to a mmorpg. Selling skins is a very good business.
Hardly a hater. I like the game and plan to play it from day one.
That doesn't change the fact that their fanbase was instrumental in creating the environment where cash shops and triple dippers can thrive. Indeed, games had cash shops before the advent of GW2, however they were sneered by the community as second rate or promoting unbalanced gameplay or just plain offering content outside the normal monetary model. All these changed when the old timers seeing their savior in GW2 gameplay forgoe any sense and advocated any features the game has as gospel, while damning anything that is not there, regardless of it being good or not.
People would like to forget these huge threads about how cash shops are the best thing ever, how they give choice and all the excuses people were making up to justify their presence in their favorite game. Six months ago? Any game with a cash shop was seen as a pariah ... exactly like this thread is trying to make Tera look like. Whether Tera has actually a cash shop is debatable at this point, but the zero tolerance towards cash shops flew out of the window when people were talking about GW2 instead.
Tera should crash and burn because it has a "cash shop", isn't this the point of this thread? Yet the very same people find a thousant excuses to protect their favorite mmorpg from the "haters".
Oh, and Vesavius, I'm not putting the blame on Anet, I'm putting the blame on GW2 apologists. Those people who came into this part of the forum to yell "See, see, Tera has a cash shop too!!! Told you so!!!!"
Do you want to see a similarly herd like behavior? All you need is go and see how Diablo advocates are defending the online only for single player game DRM model.
You're completely wrong and biased.
If you had just checked the gw2 forums (gw2 guru and others) you would've have noticed the huge massive shitstorm that raged on for days when the cash shop was revealed. And there were ironically quite few Tera fans being sarcastic about it. Now it comes around. Must be karma.
But the point is that there is no way that "cash shops are ok since Gw2". People raged about cash shops before, they are raging now and they will rage about them even in the future. Gw2 or not.
Yea, I saw the announcement about their "premium services" on the login page and was definitely disappointed. I think Tera is a fun game but it's questionable whether it's even worth a monthly fee, adding a cash shop at this stage was a bad move in my opinion and it's certainly making me question whether I want to continue to support En Masse with my $15 a month.
There are so many decent games out there and a bunch of promising ones on the horizon. If you give me B2P or F2P, I will gladly deal with your cash shop but P2P + cash shop is getting ridiculous.
This just made my day. Want a western "hardcore" game go play Diablo 3 with a real auction-house. Don't like asian mmo's? Stay away from Tera. It's that simple.
And I hope EME adds those lovely HP pots into the cash-shop too. Remember, it's all about the money and the extra "perks" that comes with subscription/premimum cash shops!
While I understand why most of you are upset about the cash shops in sub games, I still feel that this is where more companies are going. I expect that most companies will start making their games with cash shops in mind. At least I think this feature is going to be more for MMO's, however even some console RPG's offer cash shops now or DLC.
Here is an example, Tales of Graces F offers a cs for cosmetics, expansions and even level increases. I think the sooner you guys realize that the gaming world is moving towards cash shops the easier it will be on all of you. Personally I dont mind having the ability to buy cosmetic items in CS I do it for some skins in LoL and have no issue with it.
I had an issue with cs originally too, but i chose to support cs as long as it was aesthetic changes only and did no give anyone an edge. I prefer the old school method ...but then again were in 2012 and most companies no longer use it.
If this "makes your day" you have some troubling interests and reasons for enjoyment.
ahh, ok, fair enough.
I personaly am not an apologist for any cash shop... at best I will be ignoring GW2's unless I can afford to buy from it with in game gold.
I guess at least they support me as a gamer fully though, rather then milk me just as a shopper.
I just find it funny that TERA and TSW both an Subscribed based MMO have Cash Shops and you got defenders left and right trying to justify it.
But when you have GW2 which is B2P with a cash shop then its totally wrong and all those defending are GW2 fanboy or fangirl.
I haven't done any research yet into TSW and TERA cash shops, are the items still buyable with ingame currency, because if it is, then it shouldn't be a problem for all the die hard players whom can play hours upon hours and still get full access to the game they are paying a monthly payment for because they have accumlated enough in game currency to access the cash shop.
But if the items in these cash shops are only RMT then there should be a louder outcry than it is currently.
Because when you pay for something monthly, you should have full access to the entire game. Thats just my opinion.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
What if you don't think that there is a problem with either cash shop as none of them provide any sort of advantage to the player?
Do I think that someone is easily parted from their money if they spend 20% of the retail cost of the game on a new weapon skin? Absolutely. Do I think that is a problem for anyone but that individual? Nope.
Well I complained to enmasse and this is what I got in a response to my email.
"Thank you for this feedback! We appreciate you letting us know about this concern. We will take this into consideration for future developments!"
However i was browsing the Tera forums and I found this which is more interesting.
http://tera-forums.enmasse.com/forums/general-discussion/topics/Youre-money-pays-for
"I spoke with a GM and asked him what the purchase of the game and subscription entitles us to. I emphasized on the subscription because I assumed what purchasing of the the game entitles us to. If you doubt this chat log then I can provide a screeny. I'll just assume you guys trust me.
Chat starts:
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Hi, my name is GM Fing.Fang.Foom. How may I help you?
Ukaei .: Hello, I'd like to know what buying the game and paying a monthly fee entitles me to. I am a bit confused because I don't understand why I'm being charged extra for content such as the vanity items. =/
Ukaei .: I know its optional but still.. its content that should probably have been part of the game.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: What are you being charge extra for?
Ukaei .: Sorry, wasn't clear on that. I mean, like, why is content being taken out to be resold. Doesn't the game purchase and monthly fee cover all content? Including those vanity items?
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Was it content that already existed that you are referring to?
Ukaei .: Ultimately, I'd like to know what purchasing the game entitles me to.
Ukaei .: And the subscription.
Ukaei .: Yeah, them vanity items. Obviously they were part of the game client, and with a stroke of a button it became unlocked in game. Doesn't my purchase of the game and subcription cover these vanity items?
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: What items?
Ukaei .: The Vanity items you guys have on sale that rival end game items.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: They are not the end game items though. They are additional content we will continue to offer exclusive items from time to time the ones you are referring to are only available for a limited time.
Ukaei .: I said they just rival the end game content..
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: They are simply for people who want to stand out from the crowd special items that not everyone will have.
Ukaei .: But shouldn't the purchase of the game and subcription over for these items?
Ukaei .: cover*
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Not if there new additions as it says the game is ever evolving.
Ukaei .: So my subscription doesn't cover for new content?
Ukaei .: Will I be charged for future patches and bug fixes?
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: I didn't say that there is plenty of new content to come.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: You are no being charge for anything unless you want those vanity items in question.
Ukaei .: Okay.. what exactly does a subscription for $14.99 entitle a customer then?
Ukaei .: And, isn't vanity items new content? Under what catergory then vanity items fall under.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Access to the servers is what you subscription is for.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: *your
Ukaei .: Just access? Could you guys possibly charge me for patches in the future? Omghosh.. You guys should tell people right away what their money is entitling them to. =/
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: I highly doubt we would charge for a patch since it is an update to fix problem or add new content. That doesn't restrict us from selling special items for those who want them. If you don't want them that's okay. There are plenty of in game items that are even harder to get just by playing.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: *Novelty items are not trade-able, sell-able, or discard-able.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: We have added these options by popular demand for such services.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: I can give you the link to the terms of service if you would like.
Ukaei .: Just access to the servers... you guys are no better than some money hungry f2p game then. Basically, if my sub is only paying for server access, then I can possibly be barred from accessing certain game content, for instance, the vanity items. I purchased the game due to its wonderful aesthetic character looks, and yet, it seems I'm being limited to what I can access.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: You taking what I said out of context.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: No one is barring you from anyhting?
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Those didn't exist before
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: It is in the terms of service under # 7 Service Interruptions and Changes to TERA
Ukaei .: They were available in K Tear, right? Or are you guys developing items for vanity over content for free? What will you guys prioritize. New content that's free or vanity items.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: We are not charging you any thing extra.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: K Tera is not affiliated with En Masse.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: NHN is the company that has the license to that.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Frogster has Europe
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: 3 separate entities.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: That's why we are all on different servers.
Ukaei .: I understand. However, what are you guys prioritizing; free content for everyone or Vanity items. From what I can tell you guys are prioritizing Vanity over free content, right?
Ukaei .: I'm assuming you guys have been working on Vanity Items for over these past two weeks.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Where are you seeing this on our web site?
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: I am confused. If you would like me to pass along a suggestion about the game I can do that.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Let me ask you this then. Have you played other MMOs?
Ukaei .: Yeah, I am too.. Very confused and shocked. Suggestion: Get rid of the Vanity Cash shop, or tell people up front what their purchase of the game and subscription entails them to before they invest in the game.
Ukaei .: Yeah I have; WOW.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Ok and wow charges do they not?
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: For a wide array of things. I am not trying to compare us to WOW but Should we not charge for expansion packs then?
Ukaei .: Mounts and pets is their motto, right? Not item contents that psychologically and significantly impacts you're game play.
Ukaei .: Charge for expansions but include all content.
Ukaei .: Please.
Ukaei .: I'll gladly pay more to have access to all content.
Ukaei .: On top of access to server also all content as monthly subscription.
Ukaei .: How about that suggestion?
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: Sure I can pass that suggestion along if you would like.
Ukaei .: $20 or $30, as long as I fully have access to the game. Alright, I think I'll ponder and contemplate whether Tera will have a future in my life. You've been great and honest, I really appreciate that.
GM Fing.Fang.Foom: No worries I can do that. "
I bet they erase it from their forums.
loooool. we need always find any reason to say bad about GW2 even if dont make any sense...
Yay for some jackass wasting a GM's time when he could be handling real petitions for players that have an actual problem. Instead he's got some wannabe hack journalist badgering him for the perfect soundbyte to back his warped little agenda, as if a GM is an authority on how funds, resources and dev time is allocated.
Yay for Ukaei, a troglodyte that should be thanking that GM for being patient with his stupidity instead of throwing that GM under the bus.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Hmm, actually you do sound as misguided as Cartman is portrayed on the show. Perhaps your opinion isn't the only one out there and other people don't view the game through your same goggle?
But I understand you can't afford it, no problem, a good B2P will come along soon I'm told.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Your personal perception of value of a WOW mount vs the price of an expansion is subjective at best, but overall irrelevant to the discussion.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I didnt expect a fanboy would actually refute any actual points with that ending in there and just go for a direct insult. Fanboys will be fanboys, completely inept in defending the undefendable.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Yes, everyone that buys the game is a customer, however there are proper channels for everything. Are you actually trying to argue that Ukaei wasn't wasting this GM's time with an agenda-driven attempt to coax the exact response he wanted to post to the forums? Are you saying that this exchange, one that the GM is actually not qualified enough or informed enough to answer, was a legitimate use of the support representative's time?
Your response was amusing. I never said he shouldn't be allowed to express his concerns. I stated, rather clearly, that Ukaei was wasting this particular channel of support's time with an issue that this particular channel of support cannot resolve.
Your rage against the machine seems to have you a bit blind to the fact that Ukaei had an agenda, or do you really feel his opening question was genuine? If you do feel it was genuine, do you agree that it is false, or do you really feel he was being charged for the extra content?
Rage on,boy
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's just skins and other cosmetic stuff...not a rip off...no biggy if people want it. If it becomes pay to win...that'd be a dissappointment.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
Nope, much easier to assume he planned out a line of questions to get a response...to post...on forums...for attention.
Right...rage on...boy...derp durp hurr durr!
darn...should have done that with a tinfoil hat on.
Oh wait I know, Ukaei is part of an internationla plot to waste GMs time to post messages on forums to turn the world against the game!
YEAH THATS IT!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
If you don't see it, then that's fine... and expected.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre