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SWTOR is dead because of arrogant, clueless lead devs

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  • tokinitokini third hut on the leftPosts: 341Member Common

    Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

    "They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

    really? i guess you must be new to swtor.the only reason scoundrels/operatives are so gimp now are because they listened to much to there playerbase.QQing about stunlocks is what pretty much made those classes worthless in every area besides healing

     

    nonsense, they always said any chanegs were based on their own internal 'metrics' - not player complaints.

     

    swtor's initial success was based on the KOTOR and star wars followings. that has died down now.  what we are seeing is what the game can do on its own merits, specifically a 25% sub drop, and likely many more to follow. note game a game like eve, which has steadily grown over years, or WoW, which had initial success, and then huge increases over the years - long after the initial blizzard fanboy/warcraft fan push should have died.

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by AbdullaDoo

    To me they've been arrogant and classless for a long time.  I followed Dragon Age's progress for many years, and toward the end when people questioned why certain design choices were made (lack of scabbards, dynamic weather, and day/night cycle, etc.) devs popped up with lazy, rude, "We know better than you what makes a good game" type of responses, while community managers disciplined posters and shut down threads that were critical of certain choices.  EA had bought Bioware in there at some point during DA:O's development.  Perhaps they were influenced by EA's "corporate culture" or because going big time got into their head a little bit.  Who knows.

     

    I haven't played either DA game, so perhaps they did get it right, but the attitude is not a thing unique to TOR.  I'm not sure how many of those people worked on TOR, but it seems to me that has become Bioware's identity and that's they type of people they want working for them.  

     

    Now they've stepped out of their element with a 100x as many people paying attention.

     

    They were really arrogant and ignorant with beta testers too. Always seemed to have the attitude they were the all knowing and testers/customers are stupid and have no clue what they want.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
    Dark Age of Camelot

  • jacklojacklo BlackpoolPosts: 570Member

    This game was dying due to lack of content only a month in, regardless of what 1.2 did to it.

    Released way too soon, buggy and lacking major features, meant the devs couldn't focus on content and instead are hastily trying to fix what was broken or missing at launch.

    They are unable to do transfers, not because of PR embarrassment, but because they still haven't written the code to do it.

    Adding the Legacy when they did only made the transfer code that much more difficult to get right, but hey they needed to dangle a carrot in an attempt to stop the bleeding subs.

    SWTOR has been totally mis-managed pretty much from conception, when they decided to use a game engine that wasn't out of Alpha status and then butcher it for their needs.

    The whole history of SWTOR has been one bad decision after another.

    I just can't understand why heads aren't rolling throughout BW / EA.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    It would be a huge story if they fired people. Don't know if they are afraid of that, but I would see it as a positive. The direction is completely fucking wrong, don't keep driving in that same direction.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • odinsrathodinsrath louisville, KYPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    its like this ..

    EA + LArts = $$$$ and advertising n swag

    BW = looking for game quality and a good product mostly for consoles

    EA+LArts+BW = bad idea

    why? because 1 word CREAM ...Cash.Rules.Everything.Around.Me  ..but replace Me with Them..EA / LArts could care less..BW is the one i feel bad for..but then again if you sleep with dogs yur bound to get fleas...yet another LArts failure that generated $$

    image

  • Nomis278Nomis278 LondonPosts: 126Member

    Originally posted by Greyhooff

    Here it is folks.

    Interview with James Ohlen.

    The real reason SWTOR is a dead game: arrogant, disconnected developers who have no clue about class balance and how their game is played.

    Good players warned them the class balance changes in 1.2 would destroy the game's balance, but they did not listen to all the PTS feedback and went on regardless with nonsensical, drastic changes.

    Check out this interview:

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/15/hyperspace-beacon-swtors-james-ohlen-shares-the-formula-behind/

    It's obvious they just won't admit lead developers' errors with 1.2 after that update destroyed class balance and killed the game's population.

    Note the repeated use of phrases like:

    it's extremely unlikely that we'll go "whoops, we went too far" and undo what we've already done. So don't keep asking if that's what you're hoping to hear.

    We've actually answered this question publicly several times, but it seems when players don't like the answer, they keep asking hoping it will change.

    Basically SWTOR will not improve.

    Clueless developers like this won't fix the problems their ignorance, hubris and inexperience have caused.

    They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

    Flogging a dead horse is the very definition of stupidity, it's all you seem to do - you even have it in your signature!

    Talk about missing the point, way to go there Einstein.

    Don't think anything else really needs to be said.

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Bioware has become one of the most arrogant and egotistical developers in the industry.  I also have rarely seen a 'AAA' dev become so confrontational with it's playerbase.  You expect the odd slip up here and there from any developer, but for these jerks, it seems to be a matter of policy. 

    They've always had this kernel of self-superiority, but it wouldn't get much exposure since they stuck to SP games.  I mean, once a title is out the door and working, that's it.  With an MMO though, where their relationship with their community is an extremely important and ongoing affair, their dismal attitude is almost impossible to mask. 

    I'd like to think that EA's disdain for gamers has been rubbing off on Bioware and that the company that brought me Baldur's Gate, weren't always the wretched assholes they've become.  That it wasn't really their fault.  They just fell in with the wrong crowd.

    I'd like to think that...

  • jacklojacklo BlackpoolPosts: 570Member

    Originally posted by odinsrath

    its like this ..

    EA + LArts = $$$$ and advertising n swag

    BW = looking for game quality and a good product mostly for consoles

    EA+LArts+BW = bad idea

    why? because 1 word CREAM ...Cash.Rules.Everything.Around.Me  ..but replace Me with Them..EA / LArts could care less..BW is the one i feel bad for..but then again if you sleep with dogs yur bound to get fleas...yet another LArts failure that generated $$

    image

    The only way this game has made any money at all for BW, EA or LArts, is if they embezzled it from the investors.

    I suppose it's kept many in jobs, so for that they may be happy.

    Were I an investor, I would be asking serious questions about what went wrong with a surety that was Star Wars.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,998Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

    Originally posted by RebornDragon


    Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

    "They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

    really? i guess you must be new to swtor.the only reason scoundrels/operatives are so gimp now are because they listened to much to there playerbase.QQing about stunlocks is what pretty much made those classes worthless in every area besides healing

     

    Stunlocking isn't fun gameplay. A stun here and there for a quick defensive or offensive boost is fine, but being able to chain them so close together is not fun or good combat design.

     

    regardless if it isnt fun,thats what a rogue class is suppose to do

     

    but i guess the failures they hired in for there pvp team thought differently

     

    not that it matters anyway,i doubt all the serious pvpers are even going to stay with swtor regardless.this games pvp just reminds me of world of warcraft,which was a joke

     

    Actually, there are alternatives, don't assume WOW's model is the only (or best) one

    In DAOC steathers were completely different in design, they  did not stun lock you, they hit you with massive burst damage early on and it was a race to the finish to see if they could kill their opponent before they healed up or out lasted them in damage before the end.

    I recall playing an Infiltrator and I'd hit the target with a big backstab using poison daggers to boost the dps with dots, then switching daggers to apply more poisons and trying to get the quick kill.

    Against sitting cloth casters this was not such a challenge, but against a tank, was near impossible except for the very skilled (or if you hit him before he was able to regen his full health (which actually took a minute or two based on downtime mechanics that title had then)

    Back to the article, the quotes in the OP aren't nearly so inflammatory if not taken out of context.  In reading the whole article he doesn't come off nearly so arrogant and it does sound like they actually put quite a bit of thought into it.

    Where my soul withers is listening to the gear / gear stats focus of the PVP design a la WOW, that's another area DAOC differed and I don't care for the trend of differing gear sets for PVP vs PVE and having to collect both, just a pain in the arse IMO.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • eyeswideopeneyeswideopen Fresno, CAPosts: 2,414Member

    Originally posted by Sorrow

    Originally posted by AbdullaDoo

    To me they've been arrogant and classless for a long time.  I followed Dragon Age's progress for many years, and toward the end when people questioned why certain design choices were made (lack of scabbards, dynamic weather, and day/night cycle, etc.) devs popped up with lazy, rude, "We know better than you what makes a good game" type of responses, while community managers disciplined posters and shut down threads that were critical of certain choices.  EA had bought Bioware in there at some point during DA:O's development.  Perhaps they were influenced by EA's "corporate culture" or because going big time got into their head a little bit.  Who knows.

     

    I haven't played either DA game, so perhaps they did get it right, but the attitude is not a thing unique to TOR.  I'm not sure how many of those people worked on TOR, but it seems to me that has become Bioware's identity and that's they type of people they want working for them.  

     

    Now they've stepped out of their element with a 100x as many people paying attention.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    When they literally verbally attacked the SWTOR CB testers because we were offering feedback, called us idiots said they knew more than we ever would and we should bow down and worship them for allowing us to buy games from them well that was the point I was done with Bioware...

     

    FOREVER!

    Yep, I remember that. Specifically, it was George Zoeller who told us they didn't need our feedback. As long as we played, they got all the "metrics" they wanted and the rest was no concern. That was when I stopped even trying to suggest anything helpful and became a regular pain in EAware's ass on the forums.

    -Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
    -And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member

    Originally posted by Darth-Ninja

    Not surprising in the least., the most over-hyped wildly mediocre mmo in and for years. Maybe BW's and EA's 15 year plan was to butcher a great IP.

    Lucas beat them to it quite a while ago.

  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by CrunkJuice2


    Originally posted by RebornDragon


    Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

    "They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

    really? i guess you must be new to swtor.the only reason scoundrels/operatives are so gimp now are because they listened to much to there playerbase.QQing about stunlocks is what pretty much made those classes worthless in every area besides healing

     

    Stunlocking isn't fun gameplay. A stun here and there for a quick defensive or offensive boost is fine, but being able to chain them so close together is not fun or good combat design.

     

    regardless if it isnt fun,thats what a rogue class is suppose to do

     

    but i guess the failures they hired in for there pvp team thought differently

     

    not that it matters anyway,i doubt all the serious pvpers are even going to stay with swtor regardless.this games pvp just reminds me of world of warcraft,which was a joke

     

    Actually, there are alternatives, don't assume WOW's model is the only (or best) one

    In DAOC steathers were completely different in design, they  did not stun lock you, they hit you with massive burst damage early on and it was a race to the finish to see if they could kill their opponent before they healed up or out lasted them in damage before the end.

    I recall playing an Infiltrator and I'd hit the target with a big backstab using poison daggers to boost the dps with dots, then switching daggers to apply more poisons and trying to get the quick kill.

    Against sitting cloth casters this was not such a challenge, but against a tank, was near impossible except for the very skilled (or if you hit him before he was able to regen his full health (which actually took a minute or two based on downtime mechanics that title had then)

    Back to the article, the quotes in the OP aren't nearly so inflammatory if not taken out of context.  In reading the whole article he doesn't come off nearly so arrogant and it does sound like they actually put quite a bit of thought into it.

    Where my soul withers is listening to the gear / gear stats focus of the PVP design a la WOW, that's another area DAOC differed and I don't care for the trend of differing gear sets for PVP vs PVE and having to collect both, just a pain in the arse IMO.

     

     

    So true..Conan didn't cleave through hordes of minions and then stop before he reaches Thoth-Amon to put on a different Loincloth , Chainmail and horned helmet... switch out swords and take him on one on one. Then have to change into a scale tunic , magical headband, leg wrappings and a battle axe when an old friend betrays and attacks him.

    The 2-3 sets of gear grind mechanics in most games today just pisses me off. The only mmo that  never pissed me off with all its "Sets" was Vanguard. Each set was obtained through different means that just didnt seem as grindy as newer MMOS. I imagine now you'l just be able to buy sets when it goes F2P. As long as it sticks around. I still like to visit from time to time.

    Now i fear that will be so with SWTOR. Once I finish all the storylines it will be just a vacation home from newer MMOS like GW2,Tera and TSW. Or likely i will keep jumping about from MMO to MMO having mostly fun but never completely satisfied.

     

  • Rommie10-284Rommie10-284 Systems CommonwealthPosts: 239Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by eyeswideopen

    Originally posted by Sorrow

    When they literally verbally attacked the SWTOR CB testers because we were offering feedback, called us idiots said they knew more than we ever would and we should bow down and worship them for allowing us to buy games from them well that was the point I was done with Bioware...

     

    FOREVER!

    Yep, I remember that. Specifically, it was George Zoeller who told us they didn't need our feedback. As long as we played, they got all the "metrics" they wanted and the rest was no concern. That was when I stopped even trying to suggest anything helpful and became a regular pain in EAware's ass on the forums.

    So do I.  I also ignored the waving red flag this was, to my regret.  Never again.

    The biggest joke from all this?  These guys will get high-profile jobs down the road, because they *worked* on TOR, and the industry doesn't give a frak about performance.  That has to change before games can really move forward, and why I'm hoping some of these new games find success with new people behind them.

    Avatars are people too

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,430Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by eyeswideopen

    Originally posted by Sorrow


    Originally posted by AbdullaDoo

    To me they've been arrogant and classless for a long time.  I followed Dragon Age's progress for many years, and toward the end when people questioned why certain design choices were made (lack of scabbards, dynamic weather, and day/night cycle, etc.) devs popped up with lazy, rude, "We know better than you what makes a good game" type of responses, while community managers disciplined posters and shut down threads that were critical of certain choices.  EA had bought Bioware in there at some point during DA:O's development.  Perhaps they were influenced by EA's "corporate culture" or because going big time got into their head a little bit.  Who knows.

     

    I haven't played either DA game, so perhaps they did get it right, but the attitude is not a thing unique to TOR.  I'm not sure how many of those people worked on TOR, but it seems to me that has become Bioware's identity and that's they type of people they want working for them.  

     

    Now they've stepped out of their element with a 100x as many people paying attention.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    When they literally verbally attacked the SWTOR CB testers because we were offering feedback, called us idiots said they knew more than we ever would and we should bow down and worship them for allowing us to buy games from them well that was the point I was done with Bioware...

     

    FOREVER!

    Yep, I remember that. Specifically, it was George Zoeller who told us they didn't need our feedback. As long as we played, they got all the "metrics" they wanted and the rest was no concern. That was when I stopped even trying to suggest anything helpful and became a regular pain in EAware's ass on the forums.

    Oh hell, we have game developers that come here to tell us the same basic thing on these forums. You don't have to work so hard for it.

    Once upon a time....

  • eblaneblan milford, OHPosts: 34Member

    Originally posted by Rommie10-284

    Originally posted by eyeswideopen


    Originally posted by Sorrow

    When they literally verbally attacked the SWTOR CB testers because we were offering feedback, called us idiots said they knew more than we ever would and we should bow down and worship them for allowing us to buy games from them well that was the point I was done with Bioware...

     

    FOREVER!

    Yep, I remember that. Specifically, it was George Zoeller who told us they didn't need our feedback. As long as we played, they got all the "metrics" they wanted and the rest was no concern. That was when I stopped even trying to suggest anything helpful and became a regular pain in EAware's ass on the forums.

    So do I.  I also ignored the waving red flag this was, to my regret.  Never again.

    The biggest joke from all this?  These guys will get high-profile jobs down the road, because they *worked* on TOR, and the industry doesn't give a frak about performance.  That has to change before games can really move forward, and why I'm hoping some of these new games find success with new people behind them.

    Indeed, in CB it certainly felt like we were only there for metrics. Combine that with how out of the loop they seemed to be and we ended up in a perfect storm of developer arrogance. I recall towards the end of beta, second to last build I believe, they moved bug reporting to the CSR ticket system. So every new bug report I submitted resulted in a CSR asking me if I was stuck or something, and more or less asking me why I was reporting these bugs to the CS ticket portal. Days later someone from QA posted a sticky telling us not to submit bugs to the CS ticket portal, mind you at this point this was the _ONLY_ way to submit bugs (aside from email). I was terribly confused, but obviously not as lost as they were.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    Originally posted by eyeswideopen

    Originally posted by Sorrow


    Originally posted by AbdullaDoo

    To me they've been arrogant and classless for a long time.  I followed Dragon Age's progress for many years, and toward the end when people questioned why certain design choices were made (lack of scabbards, dynamic weather, and day/night cycle, etc.) devs popped up with lazy, rude, "We know better than you what makes a good game" type of responses, while community managers disciplined posters and shut down threads that were critical of certain choices.  EA had bought Bioware in there at some point during DA:O's development.  Perhaps they were influenced by EA's "corporate culture" or because going big time got into their head a little bit.  Who knows.

     

    I haven't played either DA game, so perhaps they did get it right, but the attitude is not a thing unique to TOR.  I'm not sure how many of those people worked on TOR, but it seems to me that has become Bioware's identity and that's they type of people they want working for them.  

     

    Now they've stepped out of their element with a 100x as many people paying attention.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    When they literally verbally attacked the SWTOR CB testers because we were offering feedback, called us idiots said they knew more than we ever would and we should bow down and worship them for allowing us to buy games from them well that was the point I was done with Bioware...

     

    FOREVER!

    Yep, I remember that. Specifically, it was George Zoeller who told us they didn't need our feedback. As long as we played, they got all the "metrics" they wanted and the rest was no concern. That was when I stopped even trying to suggest anything helpful and became a regular pain in EAware's ass on the forums.

    That's just terrible.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Originally posted by Teilo

    If the horse is dead, why do you insist on beating it?

     

    Over and over.

    Tenderizes the meat

    BEST ANSWER EVER... +5

  • UnleadedRevUnleadedRev Boston, MAPosts: 387Member Uncommon

    Its EA/Bioware, what do you expect?

    The Pub/Dev that brought us the great game that was Dragon Age 1, then thought they new better than anyone and released the POS that was Dragon Age 2.

    Created urgent demand for SWTOR prior to release by causing paniced players to buy digital copies of the game "before they run out"!

    ROFLMAO

    The Pub/Dev that brought us the great Mass Effect series 1-3, but is probably planning for Mass Effect 4 to take place in Newark New Jersey and will replace shepard with Snookie.

    Published Kingdoms of Amalur despite the fact that a single player fantasy RPG has been done so many times, that Elves fear to walk the streets alone, and said game had nothing new, ground breaking ro special about it. Oh yeah, the dev studio...Studio 38 is about to go bankrupt, and because they were funded by State of Rhode Island Bonds, Tax Payers will be flipping the bill for their FAIL!

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    Originally posted by UnleadedRev

    Its EA/Bioware, what do you expect?

    The Pub/Dev that brought us the great game that was Dragon Age 1, then thought they new better than anyone and released the POS that was Dragon Age 2.

    Created urgent demand for SWTOR prior to release by causing paniced players to buy digital copies of the game "before they run out"!

    ROFLMAO

    The Pub/Dev that brought us the great Mass Effect series 1-3, but is probably planning for Mass Effect 4 to take place in Newark New Jersey and will replace shepard with Snookie.

    Published Kingdoms of Amalur despite the fact that a single player fantasy RPG has been done so many times, that Elves fear to walk the streets alone, and said game had nothing new, ground breaking ro special about it. Oh yeah, the dev studio...Studio 38 is about to go bankrupt, and because they were funded by State of Rhode Island Bonds, Tax Payers will be flipping the bill for their FAIL!

    Oh man I forgot about the Before they run out garbage!

    $150.00 Collector's Edition. sigh

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • KiljaedenasKiljaedenas New Westminster, BCPosts: 468Member

    I'm so glad I never got into this game, I avoided all the crap like this entirely :)

    Where's the any key?

  • Demmi77Demmi77 philly, PAPosts: 225Member

    i'll summarize this for everyone as to why this game is utter garbage.

    Bioware: 

    Created a story driven mmo, copied, old wow stuff. Created what they wanted us to play.

    Launched teh game without 1.2 and ignored beta testers from closed beta about the flaws of the game.

    again, bioware made what they wanted, not what YOU wanted. Asked time and time again, they just kept pushing along with this voice over/story garbage. Story is unimportant when its created for you in an mmo. If you are going to plot an entire roller coaster for people, then do the whole roller coaster. Bioware stopped at level 50. people don't want to go through this again and again and again.

    the trend here is that bioware is doing what they want with the game, not what the community wanted. Most of us, want a player driven economy, choice, crafting. This game should have been made single player, with dlc's . 

    The servers are dying more and more as other mmo's come out with a "real" difference. im going to list non "mmo's" as well since they will pull chunks from swtor as well.

    Secret world 

    guild wars 2

    torchlight 2

    tera

    borderlands 2

    diablo 3

     

    even these non mmo games have more community than what star wars the old republic offered at launch.

     

    The devs at bioware and ea have no clue. this game may by the end of next year hold 150k subs if lucky. People don't want more flashpoints. They want something to do, and when you tell them what to do and how to do it, it takes the immersion of gameplay out.

    they should have realized that star wars fans are a strong , tight knit community, and built the game around building that. They are now losing star wars fans, as well as mmo fans. I wanted this game to be successful, i , in fact loved it till level 50. Unfortunately, it's a closed beta of vanilla wow in it's current state.

    Baldur's gate was one of my first games, and im shocked at how bioware was so stubborn to ignore the people that made them what they are. stick with dragons and single player bioware. 

     

  • kanezfankanezfan margate, FLPosts: 482Member

    It amazes me with all this that people are shelling out what, $200, $300 for a lifetime sub on TSW with EA involved? I can see that train wreck coming 100 miles away...

  • CrunkJuice2CrunkJuice2 asdasd, INPosts: 568Member

    Originally posted by kanezfan

    It amazes me with all this that people are shelling out what, $200, $300 for a lifetime sub on TSW with EA involved? I can see that train wreck coming 100 miles away...

     

    id rather flush 300 dollers down the toilet then pay 300 dollers for a lifetime subscription to a funcom mmo

    i mean,people do relize that funcom made age of conan right? 

     

     

     

  • galphargalphar Independence, KYPosts: 65Member Uncommon

    Here's a look into the future on the MMORPG.com forums:

    1 year from now " WTH did Anet do? they f****ed  up this game so bad"

    2 years from now "WTH did Blizzaed do? they f***ed up this game so bad"

    3 years from now " WTH did (insert dev here) do? They f***ed up this game so bad"

     

    Do you see the trend? No matter what game comes out, the forums on this site will continue to be filled with haters that think the best years of MMOs were 10 years ago.  If you think all these new/current games suck so much, create your own MMO and then let us critisize it.

    image

  • MMOarQQMMOarQQ BoogalululuPosts: 636Member

    This still burns my ass... I really wanted to enjoy this game... I really did.

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