There might be a disadvantage for being short too. When I once played a gnome in WoW I had line of sight issues in some areas when trying to look over objects. Take cliffs for example. When your character is firing projectiles from a cliff it helps to be tall, because your character can be in line of sight of more stuff below a cliff than a character closer to the ground.
Don't underestimate the hatred that players have for small characters. Sometimes they will go to great lengths to have a gnome dead versus a charr just because of this perceived insult. I remember a friend that told me whenever he saw a short race in any game with PvP, he would head straight for that target first. He would go out of the way to find ways to kill them.
So you'll have players on both sides of the spectrum, those that will ignore the small guys and those that will hunt for them.
Lol I actually told my guildmates that when ever I saw Asura on the battlefield I would be going after them. Tactics be damned!
I think giving larger characters more HP is a stupid idea. Then people would just role Charr & Norn and QQ that the Asura are too squishy, that they are always the targets for focus fire (ctrl+T). Quite frankly I don't see the Asura having that big of an advantage in a tab-target game and only those who suffer from some serious tunnel vision won't be able to spot an Asura with a bigass name-plate. Even in the old poor quality PAX & Gamescom vids, I never had much trouble spotting an Asura. Would be much easier in-game. Or maybe my eyesight is just that amazing.
I think you missed where I said "not a lot more". They shouldn't be given enough extra so that one race is "squishy" compared to another but just enough to nulify the size advantage. And you may not view that small difference in size as much of an advantage but if you play compeditively then you'll take any advatage you can get, no matter how small.
And when I played, the Charr and Norn most certainly stuck out from the Asura. Even if you can see the name tag as clearly as the next races, there are a certain percentage of players (who knows how many) that focus on the character and not the name tag. And those players are more likely to target the player that is more noticable if all other aspects are equal.
It's those small advantages that compeditive players look for and why they'll chose Asura every time.
Our team has yet to worry about any kind of character race differences at all. Mainly because if you are a truly competitive player seeing and targeting an asura is probably the simplest task in the game. Never once In a game have I targeted anything just because it was bigger. Unless the asura were so small that they literally got lost in the shuffle and were hard to target there's no problem with their size.
The game is extremely complex. Much more complex then one would originally percieve. Its only when you start diving into the mechanics competitively do you see all of the layers of the game.
A smaller character model is not even worthy of being considered an advantage in competitive play. Most of us will click nameplates as those ensure a successful target of the desired character. Clicking character bodies for a target is always a mess in any game. I couldn't even really see this being an advantage at all in casual PvP. It isn't any more difficult to click an asura than a norn in the least.
Trust me when I say you don't have to worry about asura size, no other race should be given any kind of health benefit. THAT, on the other hand, would be a tangible benefit no matter how small the health buff. No competitive player would ever pick asura or human or silvari. The size difference isn't worth even one point of extra health. It literally causes no extra difficulty in targeting at all.
That being said, good post. I disagree but I like the discussion. Targeting would only be a problem if the game was not target based and it was actually, noticeably, more difficult to hit the asura. As it stands I've not noticed a single extra second targeting a smaller race. The second I want to target I click or tab. Done.
I mean, why would they not? If you can't use racial abilities in standard (non-WvW) PvP matches then the only advantage one race gives over another is thier size. All races may have the same hitbox but a physically smaller character will be slightly harder to spot depending on terrain.
Only reason I bring it up is that I worry serious PvP and Esport matches will consist of two teams of Asura which, to me anyway, doesn't seem as visually appealing to watch or play in.
I know it's late in the development to do so but it would be nice if they would make it so the larger your race, the more hit points you have. Not a lot more but just enough to make up for sticking out like a sore thumb in PvP.
What think you?
You are clearly not thinking outside of the box.
1) Norn Mesmer = Bigger illusions which can get in the way of ranged classes... especially spamming multiple on them.
2) Defense characters will want to go big as they have a greater chance of attracting people who click target.
3) most weapon affects are AOE arcs and PvPers have already or soon will learn not to tab target... Hit boxes being equal means Asura will get hit just as often as everyone else in that arc.
4) Pets can and will still go after Asura using terrain to hide.
While size might give a small advantage in certain situations... It will not be large enought to warrent all hardcore PvPers to roll Asura. Size can work both ways depending on what roll a player wants to have in PvP.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Asura is almost same size as humans in-game. A little shorter but quite wider.
With that being said, anyone who still doesn't choose Asura is just crazy. They should remove all other races. (They're so cool! I wouldn't mind a world of pure Asura)
Asura is almost same size as humans in-game. A little shorter but quite wider.
With that being said, anyone who still doesn't choose Asura is just crazy. They should remove all other races. (They're so cool! I wouldn't mind a world of pure Asura)
Call me crazy then, they're the only race I won't be playing.
There might be a disadvantage for being short too. When I once played a gnome in WoW I had line of sight issues in some areas when trying to look over objects. Take cliffs for example. When your character is firing projectiles from a cliff it helps to be tall, because your character can be in line of sight of more stuff below a cliff than a character closer to the ground.
This is the main argument that could sway me from my decision but I just don't know if it's really valid because of the fact that the camera is 3rd person. So the real question is, is the camera actually lowered for a shorter race? If it is then I definitly think it would offset any "shortness" advantage. I'm gonna have to test it out tomorrow. Heck, if I can look at a more downward angle over obsticals due to hight, maybe I'll change my tune tomorrow and say all serious PvPers will choose Norn
And I foresee the day when PvP battles will use a lot of Hazmat Suits and Golems Battlesuits...
Bring the tanks, baby!
Those suits don't make you a tank to my knowledge(assuming the battlesuit works similar to the hazmat). The hazmat only gives you 2k extra HP and YOU take all damage unlike the siege golems which use a different far larger health bar. What it boils down to is that golem suits will be about as popular as summoned weapons(lightning hammer/bow). They are neat and can certainly be useful, but they aren't going to come anywhere near replacing your main skillset. All of your traits are geared towards your skills so summoned weapons/suits have a very negative side.
There might be a disadvantage for being short too. When I once played a gnome in WoW I had line of sight issues in some areas when trying to look over objects. Take cliffs for example. When your character is firing projectiles from a cliff it helps to be tall, because your character can be in line of sight of more stuff below a cliff than a character closer to the ground.
This is the main argument that could sway me from my decision but I just don't know if it's really valid because of the fact that the camera is 3rd person. So the real question is, is the camera actually lowered for a shorter race? If it is then I definitly think it would offset any "shortness" advantage. I'm gonna have to test it out tomorrow. Heck, if I can look at a more downward angle over obsticals due to hight, maybe I'll change my tune tomorrow and say all serious PvPers will choose Norn
Name one PvP mmorpg where people picked a specific race for a height advantage.
Daoc is easily the BEST example of height actually being useful and it STILL didn't impact competent pvpers.
I think giving larger characters more HP is a stupid idea. Then people would just role Charr & Norn and QQ that the Asura are too squishy, that they are always the targets for focus fire (ctrl+T). Quite frankly I don't see the Asura having that big of an advantage in a tab-target game and only those who suffer from some serious tunnel vision won't be able to spot an Asura with a bigass name-plate. Even in the old poor quality PAX & Gamescom vids, I never had much trouble spotting an Asura. Would be much easier in-game. Or maybe my eyesight is just that amazing.
It really is a balance issue. A few more HP could work, say 1-2% or so for large characters and -1-2% for asura.
Larger differences than that would mess things up more instead of helping with the balance.
There might be a disadvantage for being short too. When I once played a gnome in WoW I had line of sight issues in some areas when trying to look over objects. Take cliffs for example. When your character is firing projectiles from a cliff it helps to be tall, because your character can be in line of sight of more stuff below a cliff than a character closer to the ground.
This is the main argument that could sway me from my decision but I just don't know if it's really valid because of the fact that the camera is 3rd person. So the real question is, is the camera actually lowered for a shorter race? If it is then I definitly think it would offset any "shortness" advantage. I'm gonna have to test it out tomorrow. Heck, if I can look at a more downward angle over obsticals due to hight, maybe I'll change my tune tomorrow and say all serious PvPers will choose Norn
I think the camera is actually lowered. In beta it felt at the "right" position regardless of race, and some people commented that when traveling to the human area as a norn, everything felt really small. Playing as a norn, humans seem tiny. Playing as a human, norn seem huge. I think that's because of the camera position.
It's also important to remember that you don't always want to avoid being targeted.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
There might be a disadvantage for being short too. When I once played a gnome in WoW I had line of sight issues in some areas when trying to look over objects. Take cliffs for example. When your character is firing projectiles from a cliff it helps to be tall, because your character can be in line of sight of more stuff below a cliff than a character closer to the ground.
This is the main argument that could sway me from my decision but I just don't know if it's really valid because of the fact that the camera is 3rd person. So the real question is, is the camera actually lowered for a shorter race? If it is then I definitly think it would offset any "shortness" advantage. I'm gonna have to test it out tomorrow. Heck, if I can look at a more downward angle over obsticals due to hight, maybe I'll change my tune tomorrow and say all serious PvPers will choose Norn
Name one PvP mmorpg where people picked a specific race for a height advantage.
Daoc is easily the BEST example of height actually being useful and it STILL didn't impact competent pvpers.
I remember the Lurikeen from DAOC. They where quite popular for the stealth classes. Although, the Lurikeen were WAY smaller than the Asura (like the height of a human leg but as thin as one too).
Some people will pick Asura for the height "advantage" but in the overall scheme of things it will matter very little. Especially WvW will be 99% zerg fights.
There might be a disadvantage for being short too. When I once played a gnome in WoW I had line of sight issues in some areas when trying to look over objects. Take cliffs for example. When your character is firing projectiles from a cliff it helps to be tall, because your character can be in line of sight of more stuff below a cliff than a character closer to the ground.
This is the main argument that could sway me from my decision but I just don't know if it's really valid because of the fact that the camera is 3rd person. So the real question is, is the camera actually lowered for a shorter race? If it is then I definitly think it would offset any "shortness" advantage. I'm gonna have to test it out tomorrow. Heck, if I can look at a more downward angle over obsticals due to hight, maybe I'll change my tune tomorrow and say all serious PvPers will choose Norn
I wasn't really talking about problems with seeing stuff on my screen as a gnome in WoW. The problem was actually being able to hit enemies in combat within a certain areas of PvP maps. There was an arena in a zone called "Bladesedge" when last I played WoW. Basically there was a bridge going through the center of the map and I had to stand on the very edge of that bridge to prevent my spells from being interrupted from obstruction of view while raining down havoc from above. Other races in WoW were usually high enough to where they didn't have to stand on the very edge to hit other players with spells. I could still hit as many players as the tallest race, but it was more of a hassle because I had to be a bit more careful with scooting close to the edge.
In GW2 projectiles will be obstructed by many things, but I'm curious if this will be a problem for asura in WvW PvP if they want to attack players from on top of keep walls.
I don't know about the serious PVP's,but many lame PVP's may also choose Asura,so when you tab an Asura,chances are that you will beat the shit out of him....
I mean, why would they not? If you can't use racial abilities in standard (non-WvW) PvP matches then the only advantage one race gives over another is thier size. All races may have the same hitbox but a physically smaller character will be slightly harder to spot depending on terrain.
Only reason I bring it up is that I worry serious PvP and Esport matches will consist of two teams of Asura which, to me anyway, doesn't seem as visually appealing to watch or play in.
I know it's late in the development to do so but it would be nice if they would make it so the larger your race, the more hit points you have. Not a lot more but just enough to make up for sticking out like a sore thumb in PvP.
What think you?
Possibly, it's definitely an issue.
However, I think it really depends on the match. I wouldn't be surprised if they allowed people to race-lock their match if needed as well. IE. Human-only matches. If they are serious about making it a viable e-sport, then that feature would be pretty important. And they've discussed as much.
I think you're right, that most people will be choosing asura for the size advantage. As others pointed out, though, it's unclear at this time if they will be at a disadvantage as far as LoS (ie shorter characters wouldn't be able to shoot over things like a taller character would.) Definitely a valid concern.
Also, keep in mind that not all group makeups will want everyone to be hard to spot. For example, maybe they might want their guardian to be pretty obvious in the hopes of drawing the enemy's attention. Skilled PvPers are going to be able to spot enemies regardless of the size advantage, so I think the problem really is going to manifest in mostly PUG matches. We'll see.
I mean, why would they not? If you can't use racial abilities in standard (non-WvW) PvP matches then the only advantage one race gives over another is thier size. All races may have the same hitbox but a physically smaller character will be slightly harder to spot depending on terrain.
Only reason I bring it up is that I worry serious PvP and Esport matches will consist of two teams of Asura which, to me anyway, doesn't seem as visually appealing to watch or play in.
I know it's late in the development to do so but it would be nice if they would make it so the larger your race, the more hit points you have. Not a lot more but just enough to make up for sticking out like a sore thumb in PvP.
What think you?
You are clearly not thinking outside of the box.
1) Norn Mesmer = Bigger illusions which can get in the way of ranged classes... especially spamming multiple on them.
2) Defense characters will want to go big as they have a greater chance of attracting people who click target.
3) most weapon affects are AOE arcs and PvPers have already or soon will learn not to tab target... Hit boxes being equal means Asura will get hit just as often as everyone else in that arc.
4) Pets can and will still go after Asura using terrain to hide.
While size might give a small advantage in certain situations... It will not be large enought to warrent all hardcore PvPers to roll Asura. Size can work both ways depending on what roll a player wants to have in PvP.
See thats a well thought out respons. Ofcause OP is right that if there any advantage to a race, competetive players will go for it, no matter how small it is. It doesn't make sense to deny that, no matter how idealistic you are about ArenaNets abillitiies to make the perfect game.
But an advantage for an individual will not always transfer to an advantage for the team. ANd size is one of thesse cases
This is the same basic problem invisibility have. It means you will not be targeted, but in any fight involving a teammate it just means that the mate has to take the hits while you are invisible. An advantage for you, but not always for the team.
Small size is the same.
Tab targeting btw means that there is no excuse for not having a target highlighted, and thats one of the main factors that its not about being small for the team. Because someone will all the time take the heat.
this is btw part of GW2 new roles system- not the trinity- but those taking the heat , and those avoiding it.
Humans were said to be the best pvp race in WoW but many of my friends were dwarfs and dranei and were ranked high up there. There will always be people rolling a race thinking they'll be at an advantage but really all that matters is how well you can play your class.
Comments
If you cannot hit them because they are small then send pet to aggro them or just do aoe.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
There might be a disadvantage for being short too. When I once played a gnome in WoW I had line of sight issues in some areas when trying to look over objects. Take cliffs for example. When your character is firing projectiles from a cliff it helps to be tall, because your character can be in line of sight of more stuff below a cliff than a character closer to the ground.
Lol I actually told my guildmates that when ever I saw Asura on the battlefield I would be going after them. Tactics be damned!
IMHO,
this racial skill (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Golem_Battlesuit) will make a big diference at PvP batlle, because it is better than Hazmat Suit (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hazmat_Suit), that everyone can bought with karma.
And I foresee the day when PvP battles will use a lot of Hazmat Suits and Golems Battlesuits...
Bring the tanks, baby!
Our team has yet to worry about any kind of character race differences at all. Mainly because if you are a truly competitive player seeing and targeting an asura is probably the simplest task in the game. Never once In a game have I targeted anything just because it was bigger. Unless the asura were so small that they literally got lost in the shuffle and were hard to target there's no problem with their size.
The game is extremely complex. Much more complex then one would originally percieve. Its only when you start diving into the mechanics competitively do you see all of the layers of the game.
A smaller character model is not even worthy of being considered an advantage in competitive play. Most of us will click nameplates as those ensure a successful target of the desired character. Clicking character bodies for a target is always a mess in any game. I couldn't even really see this being an advantage at all in casual PvP. It isn't any more difficult to click an asura than a norn in the least.
Trust me when I say you don't have to worry about asura size, no other race should be given any kind of health benefit. THAT, on the other hand, would be a tangible benefit no matter how small the health buff. No competitive player would ever pick asura or human or silvari. The size difference isn't worth even one point of extra health. It literally causes no extra difficulty in targeting at all.
That being said, good post. I disagree but I like the discussion. Targeting would only be a problem if the game was not target based and it was actually, noticeably, more difficult to hit the asura. As it stands I've not noticed a single extra second targeting a smaller race. The second I want to target I click or tab. Done.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
You are clearly not thinking outside of the box.
1) Norn Mesmer = Bigger illusions which can get in the way of ranged classes... especially spamming multiple on them.
2) Defense characters will want to go big as they have a greater chance of attracting people who click target.
3) most weapon affects are AOE arcs and PvPers have already or soon will learn not to tab target... Hit boxes being equal means Asura will get hit just as often as everyone else in that arc.
4) Pets can and will still go after Asura using terrain to hide.
While size might give a small advantage in certain situations... It will not be large enought to warrent all hardcore PvPers to roll Asura. Size can work both ways depending on what roll a player wants to have in PvP.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
One can only dream....
Ratero.
Call me crazy then, they're the only race I won't be playing.
This is the main argument that could sway me from my decision but I just don't know if it's really valid because of the fact that the camera is 3rd person. So the real question is, is the camera actually lowered for a shorter race? If it is then I definitly think it would offset any "shortness" advantage. I'm gonna have to test it out tomorrow. Heck, if I can look at a more downward angle over obsticals due to hight, maybe I'll change my tune tomorrow and say all serious PvPers will choose Norn
Those suits don't make you a tank to my knowledge(assuming the battlesuit works similar to the hazmat). The hazmat only gives you 2k extra HP and YOU take all damage unlike the siege golems which use a different far larger health bar. What it boils down to is that golem suits will be about as popular as summoned weapons(lightning hammer/bow). They are neat and can certainly be useful, but they aren't going to come anywhere near replacing your main skillset. All of your traits are geared towards your skills so summoned weapons/suits have a very negative side.
Name one PvP mmorpg where people picked a specific race for a height advantage.
Daoc is easily the BEST example of height actually being useful and it STILL didn't impact competent pvpers.
It really is a balance issue. A few more HP could work, say 1-2% or so for large characters and -1-2% for asura.
Larger differences than that would mess things up more instead of helping with the balance.
This is the main argument that could sway me from my decision but I just don't know if it's really valid because of the fact that the camera is 3rd person. So the real question is, is the camera actually lowered for a shorter race? If it is then I definitly think it would offset any "shortness" advantage. I'm gonna have to test it out tomorrow. Heck, if I can look at a more downward angle over obsticals due to hight, maybe I'll change my tune tomorrow and say all serious PvPers will choose Norn
I think the camera is actually lowered. In beta it felt at the "right" position regardless of race, and some people commented that when traveling to the human area as a norn, everything felt really small. Playing as a norn, humans seem tiny. Playing as a human, norn seem huge. I think that's because of the camera position.
It's also important to remember that you don't always want to avoid being targeted.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
What about players who build tanky (pretty much any Guardian build) or Bruiser (Tanky DPS)?
In that case you'll want to take the larger races (Norn and Charr). PvP builds aren't all about sheer DPS you know.
I remember the Lurikeen from DAOC. They where quite popular for the stealth classes. Although, the Lurikeen were WAY smaller than the Asura (like the height of a human leg but as thin as one too).
Some people will pick Asura for the height "advantage" but in the overall scheme of things it will matter very little. Especially WvW will be 99% zerg fights.
I wasn't really talking about problems with seeing stuff on my screen as a gnome in WoW. The problem was actually being able to hit enemies in combat within a certain areas of PvP maps. There was an arena in a zone called "Bladesedge" when last I played WoW. Basically there was a bridge going through the center of the map and I had to stand on the very edge of that bridge to prevent my spells from being interrupted from obstruction of view while raining down havoc from above. Other races in WoW were usually high enough to where they didn't have to stand on the very edge to hit other players with spells. I could still hit as many players as the tallest race, but it was more of a hassle because I had to be a bit more careful with scooting close to the edge.
In GW2 projectiles will be obstructed by many things, but I'm curious if this will be a problem for asura in WvW PvP if they want to attack players from on top of keep walls.
I don't know about the serious PVP's,but many lame PVP's may also choose Asura,so when you tab an Asura,chances are that you will beat the shit out of him....
http://www.zedge.net/profile/ZLE42/ <---- ringtones
Possibly, it's definitely an issue.
However, I think it really depends on the match. I wouldn't be surprised if they allowed people to race-lock their match if needed as well. IE. Human-only matches. If they are serious about making it a viable e-sport, then that feature would be pretty important. And they've discussed as much.
I think you're right, that most people will be choosing asura for the size advantage. As others pointed out, though, it's unclear at this time if they will be at a disadvantage as far as LoS (ie shorter characters wouldn't be able to shoot over things like a taller character would.) Definitely a valid concern.
Also, keep in mind that not all group makeups will want everyone to be hard to spot. For example, maybe they might want their guardian to be pretty obvious in the hopes of drawing the enemy's attention. Skilled PvPers are going to be able to spot enemies regardless of the size advantage, so I think the problem really is going to manifest in mostly PUG matches. We'll see.
See thats a well thought out respons. Ofcause OP is right that if there any advantage to a race, competetive players will go for it, no matter how small it is. It doesn't make sense to deny that, no matter how idealistic you are about ArenaNets abillitiies to make the perfect game.
But an advantage for an individual will not always transfer to an advantage for the team. ANd size is one of thesse cases
This is the same basic problem invisibility have. It means you will not be targeted, but in any fight involving a teammate it just means that the mate has to take the hits while you are invisible. An advantage for you, but not always for the team.
Small size is the same.
Tab targeting btw means that there is no excuse for not having a target highlighted, and thats one of the main factors that its not about being small for the team. Because someone will all the time take the heat.
this is btw part of GW2 new roles system- not the trinity- but those taking the heat , and those avoiding it.
Get used to it
who cares about clickers in an aoe game?
i highly doubt it'll make a difference
Humans were said to be the best pvp race in WoW but many of my friends were dwarfs and dranei and were ranked high up there. There will always be people rolling a race thinking they'll be at an advantage but really all that matters is how well you can play your class.
Racials don't work in PvP. Only PvE and WvW.
/problem solved