With GW2 I can finally be my true self, kind respectful and considerate of others. It never was my intent in the first place to allow other MMOs turn me into something I'am not, that rude and inconsiderate and disrespectful, when that happens I found myself drifting from that game and in isolation. Thank you GW2 for allowing me to be my self again.
Games cant lead people to become violent but if they do its because THEY have some kind of problem not the game....
Let's tone down the discussion a bit. As I know that violent game censorship is a very emotional hot spot for gamers. Lets bring it back to somewaht on topic and talk about socially accepted behavior (not that we can all agree what this is but general consensus might suffice).
I certianly can write edutainment software to teach reading, physics, mathmatics or any subject really. So I doubt anyone would disagree that there could exist software that teaches sociopathic tendencies. You could argue that it wouldn't take since any sane and well adjusted person would reject the teaching/programming. So then it's a question of how prevassive the software is that teachs the bad behavior and how susceptable the student is to learning it.
I would suspect that the younger the student/player the more open they are to learning bad behavior given that they have experienced less socially acceptable behavior over thier lifetimes (less reinforcement up till that point).
Given that, it is possible that games that have encouraged and rewarded bad behavior were in fact having a negative impact on certian individuals (training them). You certianly can argue that it is the individuals (or parents in the case of minors) responsibility to avoid such games. And you might ague that no game exists today that encourages negative behavior enough to have a true impact. But it would be hard to argue that it couldn't exist.
One thing I miss and really don't miss is being able to horse around with my friends and drop a duel flag. being able to test your skills out on friends was always a bonus that I will miss, but it was so annoying having random people drop duel flags rapidly while you're trying to organize or in a quest screen reading something. I do like the cooperative theme GW2 has brought though.
In the GW2 Beta, you had to actually force yourself to realize you can like being around other people now. You can be generous, patient, and enjoy the company of fellow adventurers. They cannot kill steal, ninja-loot, or bogart your nodes. All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.
This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?
The GW2 beta event was a real eye-opener. It's almost like Arenanet has broken some conspiratorial, secret set of MMOG development rules that, before now, we all just accepted as a necessary part of the genre. A lot of us were experiencing a kind of abused spouse syndrome, where we were expecting to get sucker-punched or slapped every time we turned around, and were instead shocked at the generosity and kindness displayed by our fellow adventurers, and the welcoming empowerment of the game-mechanics. Many of us had to work to discard bad habits that were necessary to cultivate in other MMOGs.
Once we realized the game really did embrace us, and that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be), and that the game wasn't going to exclude us or force us to play some way we didn't want to play, there was this huge sense of relief and euphoria, like being set free from the harsh, unnecessary and unjust shackles of prior MMOGs.
Now there's a realization, much like when I read an interview with some Verant (EQ) developer who said that the player base enjoyed being the victims of GM vs Uberguild events: we casual players been lied to and used, suckered into playing games that had no intention of treating us with respect or consideration for the express purpose of populating those games as victims, 2nd-class citizens, and scrubs for the ego-amusement of others - including the developers themselves.
OP, I take it you are being serious?
Right, frankly, in that case you've been doing something wrong when MMOing!
A MMO is depends (for the biggest part) on the gamers, simple as that.
Over the last decade I've been chance grouping, purpose teaming, guilding in any number of games where we - as a team - did something together.
And of course I've also taken advantage of the fruits of labor other players/groups had put their energy into: yes, I had them (almost) kill the bad guy(s) and then "stole" their kill/loot - other have done the same to me/my group. It just happens, very likely not even on purpose but rather because, well, you are actually trying to help that poor guy who is close to dying by just taking a few HP off that monster (as one doesn't have a way to heal the other guy) and would ya know it, dang, one just killed that monster - darn! ;-)
And yeah, there's obviously also the 'ooops, who left that loot box/objective unguarded' moments.
Shit hapens! Or am I just being an - accidental - bad guy?
The thing is, OP, AN doesn't make all MMOing suddenly a "nice-y-nice" place with GW2.
Of course, you are getting rewards for just being "part" of an event (though you may have done very little), but on the other side people are still as un-cooperative as they have always been (and will be): In the EB I (as a solo player) repeatedly called out (more) suitable targets to the horde that was banging at some keep's door (with no success aside from dying en mass), but did I get anybody to listen? Not even the members of the test guild I had picked came thru (yeah, it's probably because nobody likes me...).
The same was pretty much true when I joined up with a guild group (other guild) for an attack on what we considered a maybe possible target. But obviously, having a bit more power would have been nice, that's why the group called out in the first place.
Did anybody else from the mob that wast just busy getting killed at the castle react to either the groups or my calls? nope...
So, yeah, the true "playing together" is not really different/better than in other games.
And just being by chance registered for an event (and therefore getting the benefits even after having left the event) is about as much as teamplay as saying a bunch of guys are actually making a car when all they do is make parts for the car and then dropping them down some chutes where a big machine (read: some game mechanics) assembles them into a car.
Teamplay would be if those guys would actually hand the parts to some other guys who then assemble the parts into a car.
Anyhow, the really sad part of your post is probably this line: "that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be)" because it actually seems to suggest that you expect the game to reward you for not being an asshole.
Oh, it will... in the sense that going together up against a strong(er) enemy you are more like to kill the monster and not be killed.
But shouldn't that be natural? As natural as helping a guy (or girl) in need, fighting off a mob on his last drop of blood, and hey, there's even a new wandering monster just heading his way... because it suggests that you actually expect the )"
Seriously, you may just be a casual gamer but that doesn't mean you are by nature damned to be a solo player!
Find some guy(s) to join up with, maybe completely at random, and quickly you'll see that GW2's 'let's make it together!' mechanics are doing nothing but giving rewards for doing pretty much nothing...
Right, frankly, in that case you've been doing something wrong when MMOing!
A MMO is depends (for the biggest part) on the gamers, simple as that.
Over the last decade I've been chance grouping, purpose teaming, guilding in any number of games where we - as a team - did something together.
And of course I've also taken advantage of the fruits of labor other players/groups had put their energy into: yes, I had them (almost) kill the bad guy(s) and then "stole" their kill/loot - other have done the same to me/my group. It just happens, very likely not even on purpose but rather because, well, you are actually trying to help that poor guy who is close to dying by just taking a few HP off that monster (as one doesn't have a way to heal the other guy) and would ya know it, dang, one just killed that monster - darn! ;-)
And yeah, there's obviously also the 'ooops, who left that loot box/objective unguarded' moments.
Shit hapens! Or am I just being an - accidental - bad guy?
The thing is, OP, AN doesn't make all MMOing suddenly a "nice-y-nice" place with GW2.
Of course, you are getting rewards for just being "part" of an event (though you may have done very little), but on the other side people are still as un-cooperative as they have always been (and will be): In the EB I (as a solo player) repeatedly called out (more) suitable targets to the horde that was banging at some keep's door (with no success aside from dying en mass), but did I get anybody to listen? Not even the members of the test guild I had picked came thru (yeah, it's probably because nobody likes me...).
The same was pretty much true when I joined up with a guild group (other guild) for an attack on what we considered a maybe possible target. But obviously, having a bit more power would have been nice, that's why the group called out in the first place.
Did anybody else from the mob that wast just busy getting killed at the castle react to either the groups or my calls? nope...
So, yeah, the true "playing together" is not really different/better than in other games.
And just being by chance registered for an event (and therefore getting the benefits even after having left the event) is about as much as teamplay as saying a bunch of guys are actually making a car when all they do is make parts for the car and then dropping them down some chutes where a big machine (read: some game mechanics) assembles them into a car.
Teamplay would be if those guys would actually hand the parts to some other guys who then assemble the parts into a car.
Anyhow, the really sad part of your post is probably this line: "that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be)" because it actually seems to suggest that you expect the game to reward you for not being an asshole.
Oh, it will... in the sense that going together up against a strong(er) enemy you are more like to kill the monster and not be killed.
But shouldn't that be natural? As natural as helping a guy (or girl) in need, fighting off a mob on his last drop of blood, and hey, there's even a new wandering monster just heading his way... because it suggests that you actually expect the )"
Seriously, you may just be a casual gamer but that doesn't mean you are by nature damned to be a solo player!
Find some guy(s) to join up with, maybe completely at random, and quickly you'll see that GW2's 'let's make it together!' mechanics are doing nothing but giving rewards for doing pretty much nothing...
Not really.
A lot of people are simply used to being handed stuff as a result of simply "grinding". Basically the gear/stats that makes you good. Seen on countless MMOs where people simply use brute force (gear and stats) to plow through challenges because that has overcome any need to actually use strat and tactics.
I'm looking forward to seeing what GW 2 shapes up to be in that department, because GW1 felt a whole lot more player-centric than many MMOs I've played in the past five years.
Definitely agree with the OP. Its the little things that make a difference:
- Ressing other people - This is very rare in other MMOs. You actually had no incentive to res somebody in an open playfield. At worst they would kill your mobs. At best they would say thank you. In GW2 Ressing is actually a key point in combat. So much so you just do it without thinking
- Killstealing is impossible - This is a huuuuuuge step forward imo.
Currently waiting for the MMO industry to put out something good.
Definitely agree with the OP. Its the little things that make a difference:
- Ressing other people - This is very rare in other MMOs. You actually had no incentive to res somebody in an open playfield. At worst they would kill your mobs. At best they would say thank you. In GW2 Ressing is actually a key point in combat. So much so you just do it without thinking
- Killstealing is impossible - This is a huuuuuuge step forward imo.
Well you may not question whether you should rez someone. But you should certainly do some thinking. Because if you die while rezzing someone then you are both SOL and it can certainly happen that way.
Apparently people have forgotten that a GAME is about Competition.
Actually, no, games are about having fun.
In fact, many of us play games to get away from jerks like yourself who use excuses like "the world is a bad place" to continue making the world a bad place, IRL and online.
Apparently people have forgotten that a SPORT is about Competition.
Actually, no, games are about having fun.
In fact, many of us play games to get away from jerks like yourself who use excuses like "the world is a bad place" to continue making the world a bad place, IRL and online.
Fixed it for you. As Irus said, games are all about fun. If you want Competition go play football, baseball or some other sport.
Apparently people have forgotten that a SPORT is about Competition.
Actually, no, games are about having fun.
In fact, many of us play games to get away from jerks like yourself who use excuses like "the world is a bad place" to continue making the world a bad place, IRL and online.
Fixed it for you. As Irus said, games are all about fun. If you want Competition go play football, baseball or some other sport.
thats funny I was thinking the same thing Kzaske, while debating whether or not to jump into this fray...good fix!
Originally posted by Meleagar In the GW2 Beta, you had to actually force yourself to realize you can like being around other people now. You can be generous, patient, and enjoy the company of fellow adventurers. They cannot kill steal, ninja-loot, or bogart your nodes. All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game. This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards? The GW2 beta event was a real eye-opener. It's almost like Arenanet has broken some conspiratorial, secret set of MMOG development rules that, before now, we all just accepted as a necessary part of the genre. A lot of us were experiencing a kind of abused spouse syndrome, where we were expecting to get sucker-punched or slapped every time we turned around, and were instead shocked at the generosity and kindness displayed by our fellow adventurers, and the welcoming empowerment of the game-mechanics. Many of us had to work to discard bad habits that were necessary to cultivate in other MMOGs. Once we realized the game really did embrace us, and that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be), and that the game wasn't going to exclude us or force us to play some way we didn't want to play, there was this huge sense of relief and euphoria, like being set free from the harsh, unnecessary and unjust shackles of prior MMOGs. Now there's a realization, much like when I read an interview with some Verant (EQ) developer who said that the player base enjoyed being the victims of GM vs Uberguild events: we casual players been lied to and used, suckered into playing games that had no intention of treating us with respect or consideration for the express purpose of populating those games as victims, 2nd-class citizens, and scrubs for the ego-amusement of others - including the developers themselves.
And fight these bosses:)
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
See, MMO developement, as pretty much everything else is based on iteration. First MMOs were in huge part built around competitive world approach. You had to fight for every bit of resource, mobs, gear etc. and it worked great back then, the genre was niche. It was built for those people who actually had internet back then.
Over the years, as the genre moved forward it was built upon those base rulesets that originated years ago, to keep the sense of familiarity and continuation. There was also the fact that the drama of guilds stealing big, world-boss like encounters from other guilds created a buzz around the game (currently only EVE really is able to do it). It was simple carrot approach -> play lots (and thus pay lots for subscription) -> get better than others -> be e-famous.
Now what ANet did is pretty much same thing. They went for iteration but their starting point was not UO or EQ. Their starting points was GW1 which was less of a MMO and more of a CORPG. When you have a game where every PvE zone is instanced and only you (and your party members) can enter it, you don't have all the griefing between players. The competitive PvE aspect was created through challenge missions based on score-attack mechanics with leaderboards. It's simply just different starting point.
I don't think they were sadistic or anything. I am not sure why those were the ideas that first got started, but once they become the mechanics of popular games became the mechanics, people didn't think or bother to change them.
I mean, mob tagging made sense on the face of it, with basic loot tables and rolls. Resource nodes were easier to write such that they vanished, and phasing wasn't a thing. I am sure there were good reasons for these mechanics in the beginning, but I am also glad Anet is moving the genre forward.
I think those things are ridiculous as well, but we shouldn't be angry at the past, but instead hopeful for the future.
Now the people who made Darkfall, there are some sadists.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I don't think they were sadistic or anything. I am not sure why those were the ideas that first got started, but once they become the mechanics of popular games became the mechanics, people didn't think or bother to change them.
I mean, mob tagging made sense on the face of it, with basic loot tables and rolls. Resource nodes were easier to write such that they vanished, and phasing wasn't a thing. I am sure there were good reasons for these mechanics in the beginning, but I am also glad Anet is moving the genre forward.
I think those things are ridiculous as well, but we shouldn't be angry at the past, but instead hopeful for the future.
Now the people who made Darkfall, there are some sadists.
Great points, and I definitely agree.
Not only has it been far too long since the bulk of the genre questioned these mechanics, because it's been so long people have learned to just 'accept' them as truths. It's very much a plato's cave alegory situation. There's just not a ton of support for innovation in this genre, and it's primarily due to people getting used to old, dated mechanics, refusing to see how they can be different.
The flip-side, though, is that these problems seem to be primarily engrained into the RPG aspect of the MMO. The fantasy / quest setting carries a giant assumption of how lvling is needed, threat mechanics are necessary, gear is important, etc. If you look at MMOs that are dipping into other genres, it's far easier for people to accept a different formula, and it's ridiculous. No one asks about lvling in an MMOFPS. Or a ship-based MMO. However, these questions always crop up in the typical RPG settings.
Comments
With GW2 I can finally be my true self, kind respectful and considerate of others. It never was my intent in the first place to allow other MMOs turn me into something I'am not, that rude and inconsiderate and disrespectful, when that happens I found myself drifting from that game and in isolation. Thank you GW2 for allowing me to be my self again.
Let's tone down the discussion a bit. As I know that violent game censorship is a very emotional hot spot for gamers. Lets bring it back to somewaht on topic and talk about socially accepted behavior (not that we can all agree what this is but general consensus might suffice).
I certianly can write edutainment software to teach reading, physics, mathmatics or any subject really. So I doubt anyone would disagree that there could exist software that teaches sociopathic tendencies. You could argue that it wouldn't take since any sane and well adjusted person would reject the teaching/programming. So then it's a question of how prevassive the software is that teachs the bad behavior and how susceptable the student is to learning it.
I would suspect that the younger the student/player the more open they are to learning bad behavior given that they have experienced less socially acceptable behavior over thier lifetimes (less reinforcement up till that point).
Given that, it is possible that games that have encouraged and rewarded bad behavior were in fact having a negative impact on certian individuals (training them). You certianly can argue that it is the individuals (or parents in the case of minors) responsibility to avoid such games. And you might ague that no game exists today that encourages negative behavior enough to have a true impact. But it would be hard to argue that it couldn't exist.
One thing I miss and really don't miss is being able to horse around with my friends and drop a duel flag. being able to test your skills out on friends was always a bonus that I will miss, but it was so annoying having random people drop duel flags rapidly while you're trying to organize or in a quest screen reading something. I do like the cooperative theme GW2 has brought though.
And here I thought (from the title) this thread would be about existential revelations...
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
Not really.
A lot of people are simply used to being handed stuff as a result of simply "grinding". Basically the gear/stats that makes you good. Seen on countless MMOs where people simply use brute force (gear and stats) to plow through challenges because that has overcome any need to actually use strat and tactics.
I'm looking forward to seeing what GW 2 shapes up to be in that department, because GW1 felt a whole lot more player-centric than many MMOs I've played in the past five years.
The OP has some relevant points.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Definitely agree with the OP. Its the little things that make a difference:
- Ressing other people - This is very rare in other MMOs. You actually had no incentive to res somebody in an open playfield. At worst they would kill your mobs. At best they would say thank you. In GW2 Ressing is actually a key point in combat. So much so you just do it without thinking
- Killstealing is impossible - This is a huuuuuuge step forward imo.
Well you may not question whether you should rez someone. But you should certainly do some thinking. Because if you die while rezzing someone then you are both SOL and it can certainly happen that way.
Actually, no, games are about having fun.
In fact, many of us play games to get away from jerks like yourself who use excuses like "the world is a bad place" to continue making the world a bad place, IRL and online.
Fixed it for you. As Irus said, games are all about fun. If you want Competition go play football, baseball or some other sport.
thats funny I was thinking the same thing Kzaske, while debating whether or not to jump into this fray...good fix!
And fight these bosses:)
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Ok working now:)
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Oh that's an easy one.
See, MMO developement, as pretty much everything else is based on iteration. First MMOs were in huge part built around competitive world approach. You had to fight for every bit of resource, mobs, gear etc. and it worked great back then, the genre was niche. It was built for those people who actually had internet back then.
Over the years, as the genre moved forward it was built upon those base rulesets that originated years ago, to keep the sense of familiarity and continuation. There was also the fact that the drama of guilds stealing big, world-boss like encounters from other guilds created a buzz around the game (currently only EVE really is able to do it). It was simple carrot approach -> play lots (and thus pay lots for subscription) -> get better than others -> be e-famous.
Now what ANet did is pretty much same thing. They went for iteration but their starting point was not UO or EQ. Their starting points was GW1 which was less of a MMO and more of a CORPG. When you have a game where every PvE zone is instanced and only you (and your party members) can enter it, you don't have all the griefing between players. The competitive PvE aspect was created through challenge missions based on score-attack mechanics with leaderboards. It's simply just different starting point.
I don't think they were sadistic or anything. I am not sure why those were the ideas that first got started, but once they become the mechanics of popular games became the mechanics, people didn't think or bother to change them.
I mean, mob tagging made sense on the face of it, with basic loot tables and rolls. Resource nodes were easier to write such that they vanished, and phasing wasn't a thing. I am sure there were good reasons for these mechanics in the beginning, but I am also glad Anet is moving the genre forward.
I think those things are ridiculous as well, but we shouldn't be angry at the past, but instead hopeful for the future.
Now the people who made Darkfall, there are some sadists.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Great points, and I definitely agree.
Not only has it been far too long since the bulk of the genre questioned these mechanics, because it's been so long people have learned to just 'accept' them as truths. It's very much a plato's cave alegory situation. There's just not a ton of support for innovation in this genre, and it's primarily due to people getting used to old, dated mechanics, refusing to see how they can be different.
The flip-side, though, is that these problems seem to be primarily engrained into the RPG aspect of the MMO. The fantasy / quest setting carries a giant assumption of how lvling is needed, threat mechanics are necessary, gear is important, etc. If you look at MMOs that are dipping into other genres, it's far easier for people to accept a different formula, and it's ridiculous. No one asks about lvling in an MMOFPS. Or a ship-based MMO. However, these questions always crop up in the typical RPG settings.