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Fear, stun locking, movement impairing effects..

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  • Heinz130Heinz130 sao pauloPosts: 227Member

    Originally posted by Zaltark

    War has always been about immobilizing troops/vehicles. It always will be. Since the beginning of time man has used nets to catch things. I think its fundamental.

    Irl if we come face to face who shoot faster and more acurate wins,remember we are talking about close range fights here

    You dont see a soldier using a taser to shoot with the gun later

    Even for melee,who fights better wins,no moral efect gas before the punch on the face at close range lol

    I personaly raly hate impairing crap,i go back in my wow time,there was nothing more boring than fight warlocks or rogues,that after make you bored culdnt even win

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  • SoulOfRazielSoulOfRaziel Porto FerreiraPosts: 405Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    ..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

    When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

    Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

     

    Yes it makes the game have more builds and dynamics.... if u take that off what would be left? auto attack?

    image

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by maplestone

    Is it possible that you would be upset at whatever the rock was that kept blunting your scissors?

    Or is there something fundementally different about not having any buttons all all to push?  Let's look at the root effect that you say you are ok with.  What about root + one of your abilities disabled?  Root + half your abilities disabled?  All by two?  All but one?  Where is the threshold between losing movement and losing all options where it ceases to be any fun at all?

    No I'm not upset at all. I dont mind losing or getting killed if it was my fault or if the other player was simply better than I am. (gear and /or skill level) Thats fine and is expected.

    For me it is the fact that in some games classes can completely shut you down and there isn't anything you can do about it. You have no way to defend yourself, escape or heal. You simply stand there stunned while you die. Where is the fun in that?

    Roots, slows. silencing are fine with me. I have not lost complete control of my toon. I have options. When you take away all of my options is when I think its just foolish and really bad developing.

  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SoulOfRaziel

    Yes it makes the game have more builds and dynamics.... if u take that off what would be left? auto attack?

    The builds that are offering these dynamics are pure garbage. How much strat or thinking does it take to fight someone who can not fight back? There are more options than stun locking and fearing a person over and over again. Why can stun not be replaced with a root or a slow? Why do you have to take away one persons ability to play in order to make a class for another person?

     

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    For me it is the fact that in some games classes can completely shut you down and there isn't anything you can do about it. You have no way to defend yourself, escape or heal. You simply stand there stunned while you die. Where is the fun in that?

    Fair enough.  I'm not a PvPer, so I'm probably missing out on the ambush part of this - most times when I encounter stun mechancis, they are set up so that I at least know they are coming (and so my defence is to not get hit by them) or know they are scaled so that they are not going to last long enough to kill me before I can react.

    I do have a strong distaste for fear/charm effects - where not only is my character out of my control, it is actually actively doing something not of my choosing.  My imagination tends to emotionally disconnect from my character when that happens.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member

    Originally posted by maplestone

    I do have a strong distaste for fear/charm effects - where not only is my character out of my control, it is actually actively doing something not of my choosing.  My imagination tends to emotionally disconnect from my character when that happens.

    Well, until they can physically make you run from your computer, guess we all are going to have to live with the game mechanic.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    ..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

    When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

    Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

    The problem isn't the existence of stun/mezz/root but the lack of viable or accessible counters for it. The hurdle there is that if everyone by default has a counter, the skills are effectively negated, and if everyone has the opportunity to choose to have a counter, and as a result sacrifice some other aspect, then there's consequence to actions at play and most MMO gamers seem to genuinely despise having to accept both the pros and the cons of their choices.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • GreenHellGreenHell ludlow, MAPosts: 1,322Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    The problem isn't the existence of stun/mezz/root but the lack of viable or accessible counters for it. The hurdle there is that if everyone by default has a counter, the skills are effectively negated, and if everyone has the opportunity to choose to have a counter, and as a result sacrifice some other aspect, then there's consequence to actions at play and most MMO gamers seem to genuinely despise having to accept both the pros and the cons of their choices.

    I think the problem is the existence of fear and stun locking as the main mechainc that a class uses to kill another player. I wouldn't mind fear or stun as much if as soon as I recieve damage the effect goes away and it does not last a long time to begin with. These things should only be used as a last resort to get away / heal yourself or a way to stop a player from kiting you.  They should never be used as a classes primary means of killing.  With longer cool downs and immunity after the effect has been put on a player they could be managed.

    Still even with that being said I believe it is a pitiful and lazy development decision. As a game ages and more levels and skills are added the balancing of these skills just seems to become worse.

  • Ashen_XAshen_X PLEASANT HILL, CAPosts: 363Member

    I think that very short duration, non-chainable, hard CC are fine. A stun that lasts only long enough to provide a momentary advantage that requires skill, timing, or tactical acumen to fully exploit is fine. A stun, knock, or something of the sort, chain that makes an opponent an assassination victim rather than a duel opponent are poor game design.

    Soft CC such as snares are more acceptible in my opinion. A ranged combatant might need one to offset a melee's higher base damage and greater raw survivability. A melee combatant might need one to offset a ranged combatant's efforts, through kiting, to reduce his ability to remain in the attack envelope long enough to do significant damage.

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • Ashen_XAshen_X PLEASANT HILL, CAPosts: 363Member

    Originally posted by ChiYeon

    I can't see why there shouldn't be "stun" on a game.. its just ridiculous to attack all at once or just spam attack all the skills. O_O

    To be able to use this kind of system to your gain, you must have "skills" to know when to attack.. IDK.. do you really want EASY MMOS? what are you? normal humans wanting to try a game then cries becuase  its not very convenient? geez..

    I'm not sure what you mean by, "normal humans," in the context of your post. Are you attempting to claim that you are abnormal in some fashion ?

    Using stun effects (or other disabling mechanics) does not inherently involve more skill than anything else in a game. In fact such can be an impediment to developing skilled play. Who needs skill if you can rely on your foe not fighting back while you kill him ?

    This is not about, "easy MMOs." The argument is not that a game should be easier, but rather that a mechanic that prevents the other player from participating in a fight is flawed. How much of a challenge would playing chess against even a grand master be if you were allowed to take extra moves while preventing him from mving at all ?

     

    By definition it is easier to defeat a foe that is not defending himself to his fullest capability than one who is doing so. A stun prevents a foe from defending himself to his fullest capability. You are dsimissively referring to others as wanting an easy game while defending a mechanic that makes play easier for those who use it. The contradiction is bizzare.

     

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    ..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

    When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

    Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

     

    Nope not necessary.  I enjoyed the way Asherons Call did it.  NOT ONE single CC effect in the game, it was all about movement and skill.  Something that GW2 is bringing back.

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  • sunrunnersunrunner Bullhead City, AZPosts: 8Member

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    ..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

    When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

    Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

     

    Sounds awesome.  More CC please.  Don't like it?  Bring friends.  Can't CC them all (at the same time).  If I can?   Bring more (and smarter) friends.  You do have friends, right?

  • Ashen_XAshen_X PLEASANT HILL, CAPosts: 363Member

    Originally posted by ChiYeon

    TLDR

    -----

     I still wouldn't change my statement no matter whats the content of your post is.. I prefer my games with this so called stun* some dreadfully accuse of being a flaw..plus I didn't say you to like it either.

    I completely understand. You are prefectly entitled to prefer games that provide you with tools to make play easier for you.

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    ..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

    When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

    Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

     

     

    I agree, stuns are lame, even on diminishing returns, and I laugh at players who tell you to bring more friends...lol..ala zerg vs zerg. No Thanks!

    But we do need some kind of mechanics, bc fights irl dont last long. So we need something to make fights last longer, but honestly I cant think of anything other than stun type, or root type mechanics.

    image
  • Ashen_XAshen_X PLEASANT HILL, CAPosts: 363Member

    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    ..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

    When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

    Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

     

     

    I agree, stuns are lame, even on diminishing returns, and I laugh at players who tell you to bring more friends...lol..ala zerg vs zerg. No Thanks!

    But we do need some kind of mechanics, bc fights irl dont last long. So we need something to make fights last longer, but honestly I cant think of anything other than stun type, or root type mechanics.

    From my experience stuns do not lengthen fights. They frequently have the opposite effect. If combatant A can, through the use of a stun, prevent combatant B from effectively defending himself the fight will be over more quickly than if B could have acted to defend himself.

    If melee combatant A can, through the use of a root, prevent ranged combatant B from kiting effectively the fight will be over more quickly than if B could have kited away.

     

    Have you played games where this wasnt the case ? If so, which ? I really am curious as to how these mechanics prolong rather than shorten fights in some games.

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,756Member Uncommon

    It's definitely a good idea for a game to distance itself from player-inhibiting effects, except in the most rare of circumstances.

    Players want to play the game, and anything which disables them basically turns the game off for a short duration (and in the most frustrating of manners.)

    Disabling parts of a character is drastically better gameplay.



    • Slows


    • Silencing a single school of magic when each character has multiple schools


    • "Silencing" a single ability that was just used (GW1)


    • Disabling a class of physical abilities (basically treating them like magic schools)


    • Preventing jump


    Basically anything which mucks around with a player's capabilities without completely turning the game off can be fun.  Once you step past that (ie immobilization vs. a melee character) you start to ruin the fun of the gam


     


    If characters are more like an RTS game where you're controlling multiple characters at once, then stuns vs. a single target end up fitting the above bullet points because the target player still has decisions left to be made.

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  • EdeusEdeus Stamford, CTPosts: 506Member

    Well consider the roots of the MMORPG: single player RPGs.  And those have had status effects for awhile like slow/confuse/poison/sleep/burn/silence/paralyze etc. 

    Stunlock and fear and slow movement are just evolutions of those basic ones from single player RPG's onto the MMO.  If anything, they will become even more complicated as we move forward.

    PS: I bet someone already mentioned this...

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  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,930Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by sunrunner

    Originally posted by GreenHell

    ..are these things really necessary in a modern MMORPG?  I think anything that prevents you from fighting or healing just seems like a cheap way out when developing a game.  In PvE it's annoying in PvP it almost seems impossible to even try and balance something like that.

    When I say balance I am not looking for every class to be equal. I dont mind if class x has some advantage over class y. I dont mind the rock, paper, scissor approach that some developers take. I dont even mind roots or stealth classes. What bothers me is not being able to fight. I don't care if I lose as long as I had a chance.

    Should there really be classes that are built around these mechanics?

     

    Sounds awesome.  More CC please.  Don't like it?  Bring friends.  Can't CC them all (at the same time).  If I can?   Bring more (and smarter) friends.  You do have friends, right?

    You obviously never played DAoC. In the earlier years gank groups would just run around, and those who got their aoe mez off first won. One person might have group purge or you might be able to purge yourself, but they would just re-aoe mez everyone, it was spammable. Which also made the game incredibly boring.

    CC has a place in gaming mechanics, but too much becomes ridiculous.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    It's definitely a good idea for a game to distance itself from player-inhibiting effects, except in the most rare of circumstances.

    Players want to play the game, and anything which disables them basically turns the game off for a short duration (and in the most frustrating of manners.)

    Disabling parts of a character is drastically better gameplay.



    • Slows


    • Silencing a single school of magic when each character has multiple schools


    • "Silencing" a single ability that was just used (GW1)


    • Disabling a class of physical abilities (basically treating them like magic schools)


    • Preventing jump


    Basically anything which mucks around with a player's capabilities without completely turning the game off can be fun.  Once you step past that (ie immobilization vs. a melee character) you start to ruin the fun of the gam


     


    If characters are more like an RTS game where you're controlling multiple characters at once, then stuns vs. a single target end up fitting the above bullet points because the target player still has decisions left to be made.

    I agree with you here.  Disabling a player completely isn't fun.  Hamper certain aspects of thier ability is the best way I've seen CC done.  The player should always have some option available to them even if it's only to run away and fight another day.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • Ashen_XAshen_X PLEASANT HILL, CAPosts: 363Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    It's definitely a good idea for a game to distance itself from player-inhibiting effects, except in the most rare of circumstances.

    Players want to play the game, and anything which disables them basically turns the game off for a short duration (and in the most frustrating of manners.)

    Disabling parts of a character is drastically better gameplay.



    • Slows


    • Silencing a single school of magic when each character has multiple schools


    • "Silencing" a single ability that was just used (GW1)


    • Disabling a class of physical abilities (basically treating them like magic schools)


    • Preventing jump


    Basically anything which mucks around with a player's capabilities without completely turning the game off can be fun.  Once you step past that (ie immobilization vs. a melee character) you start to ruin the fun of the gam


     


    If characters are more like an RTS game where you're controlling multiple characters at once, then stuns vs. a single target end up fitting the above bullet points because the target player still has decisions left to be made.

    I agree completely.

    Hampering a character can test the player's ability to overcome the obstacle that the hampering effect represents. Taking away the ability to even participate in a match/duel/whatever does no such thing.

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    It's definitely a good idea for a game to distance itself from player-inhibiting effects, except in the most rare of circumstances.

    Players want to play the game, and anything which disables them basically turns the game off for a short duration (and in the most frustrating of manners.)

    Disabling parts of a character is drastically better gameplay.



    • Slows


    • Silencing a single school of magic when each character has multiple schools


    • "Silencing" a single ability that was just used (GW1)


    • Disabling a class of physical abilities (basically treating them like magic schools)


    • Preventing jump


    Basically anything which mucks around with a player's capabilities without completely turning the game off can be fun.  Once you step past that (ie immobilization vs. a melee character) you start to ruin the fun of the gam


     


    If characters are more like an RTS game where you're controlling multiple characters at once, then stuns vs. a single target end up fitting the above bullet points because the target player still has decisions left to be made.

    I agree with you here.  Disabling a player completely isn't fun.  Hamper certain aspects of thier ability is the best way I've seen CC done.  The player should always have some option available to them even if it's only to run away and fight another day.

    I agree with this aswell.

    Limiting the character for a time forces the player adapt and react. It is a challenging gameplay situation but you are still in control. Stuns and such just disable the character and you have no control. In someways it is the "easy-mode CC" whereas the other kind forces the players to use CC more tactically. You blind the archers, slow melee characters, silence the casters etc. but you don't have one CC that works against everything.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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