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Sandbox Fans love Sandboxes, but also Love The Elder Scrolls Skyrim
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,387
This forum is full of members who are seeking a great Sandbox experience.
Looking over at the TESO subforum, I can see a lot of rage over it being themepark designed as people put it.
The Sandbox Community seem to have wanted TESO to be a Sandbox MMO version of Skyrim.
But looking over Skyrim, how Sandbox is it really? What about Skyrim appeals to Sandbox fans, that Themepark MMO tend to turn sandbox fan's heads?
Well I heard that Sandbox fans hate Load Screens.
But doesnt Skyrim also have load screens? Some themepark MMO also have no load screens. So not sure how this is a Sandbox feature.
Or maybe Sandbox fans love the lack of classes in Skyrim.
interesting. Take a look at this.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Skyrim:_Skills
this is a link to the skills in Skyrim, that all characters can learn.
But to be efficient with them, you have to spec into them.
Kind of remind me of this:
http://www.wowhead.com/class=11
see all them baseline skills I can use in this popular themepark MMO? Well I can use all the baseline skills, but to make more use of them, I need to spec into improving them.
In Skyrim, My character, lets call it (Player Class), has access to all the baseline skills. Only 1 class unlike that early themepark game example. If I want some uniqueness from another Player Class, I need to spec into that, but I still have all my baseline skills.
Reminds me greatly of the Class system to me.
Maybe Sandbox fans enjoy the Questing in Skyrim.
and here is the Themepark MMO quest.
whats the differences here? Seem like Solo questing seen in themepark MMO. not very Sandboxy to me.
Oh yeah, Sandbox fans love to explore. go places.
well Why cant you do that in a themepark as well?
after all of this. Skyrim seem very Themepark Like....
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
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It gives you the feeling that your decisions matter, that you are impacting the world. That is the quintessential definition of sandbox - you impact the world. Skyrim does this.
Loading screens, housing... those are all features that can be in both TP or SB.
I like sandbox games but am far from a sandbox only MMO player (so take my opinions lightly) but some of your assertions are slightly off the mark (not a big surprise based on the "tone" of your post).
Sandbox players hate loading screens: I guess that is one way to say it but it kind of glosses over the reasoning or point most sandbox players are wanting, which is a single seamless open world (per server that is). To many this is what should be required to even call a game an MMORPG. To many this is the key feature that drives what a community should be in an MMO.
Sandbox players hate classes: Again I think you are way oversimplifying. Most sandbox players only hate very restrictive cookie cutter classes. Also just because a tree can be specced different ways doesnt mean it is good since most games like this only have one truely viable way to spec (not true for al of course). they just tend to want a good amount of character custimiztaion that has some intelligence behind it.
Sandbox like questing in skyrim: Funny how once again you seem to completely miss what makes questing in Skyrim to appeal to snadbox players. Yes some (although not many) quests ressemble MMO quests but its not the quests themselves we like its the way in which we do them. What I mean is Skyrim questing outside of the main storyline quest is 100% not linear. While the first side quest you would expect me to get is in the first town you start in the player has the option of going to any town on the map and picking up sidequests. This is not true in themepark MMO's. Even when you get some choice on sidequests you are usually forced to stay within a very small portion of the overall world map.
Sandbox players like to explore: Well I am sure many do. themeparks tend to be on rails and have very little option to explore. Each area is level specifiic and it is either not possible to explore the other areas without massive amounts of dieing or there is no reason to explore because dungeons are on rails located at the level appropriate spots right next to the mobs u grind for that level. Skyrim on the other hand has caves and dungeons not on the map that will never be discovered by questing alone and they sometimes have very nice rewards.
While I realize that your post was facetious in nature and meant to be troll bait i hope my explanations provides other people who see this thread with what some of us hope to see.
Your right OP, TES single-players were never totally sandbox. They do have some sandbox elements though such as:
Skill-based progression
Lack of Level Based zones
The bottom line in my opinion is... the more sandbox it is the better the mmo.
Skyrim and as most Elder Scroll games have open free roaming world same as sandbox.
Elder Scrolls also have total freedom.
No quest hubs.
Huge exploring world full secrets with random encounters of bandits/mobs or other npc's.
No hold hands.
And becouse of MODS the gameworld constaly changing when you install them.
So bottom line is its ABSOLUTELY NO THEMEPARK its also not in the true sense a sandbox but it have alot in commen with sandbox games.
Its a FREEDOMEXPMODBOX solo game
OP didn't touch really what is the core of sandbox. Here are few keywords: Open, nonlinear, freedom of choice, lack of restrictive mechanics, abundance of cross-interacting mechanics and persistance. Skyrim does most of these well, although story wise it is quite linear. That can be ignored though.
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as an avid fan of TES who has played since 2003 (morrowind release one of my favorite games ever) let me tell you specifically what I like about TES games which do not really exist at all or well in other games. This is a list that often gets missed completely off the mark by those who are not well into the game.
not in order:
1. Skill based
2. CREATE your own path (different from 'choose' your own path)
3. heavy exploring possible.
4. not quest dependent
5. first person view.
6. get better at skill by using skill.
7. 'realistic' world. another phrase is called 'fictional reality' meaning yes its fiction (like flying) but it seems real.
I dont care about load screens, housing, items that can be moved around. Those are nice features but they are NOT the pillars of the game
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Your skill to class comparison is a stretch. Skyrim the skills define the class. With WoW the class selects the skills which modifies the class. You class has been defined for you.
It wouldn't take a lot to make me happy as a sandbox fan.
1. create my own character (non class)
2. non-combat featuers that are meaningful
3. gear enhances your character, but doesn't define it
4. consentual pvp
Don't care about quest, load screens, pvp, and a host of other BS that most people obsess over.
Everyone has a different defintion of sandbox. But there is ONE attribute of sandboxes that we all can agree on.
They are non-linear.
In fact, non-linearity is the essence of a sandbox and, IMO, what separates a sandbox from a themepark. Anything else is pure opinion.
Now, that said. ES: Skyrim was VERY non-linear. You could literally just ignore the main quest and do whatever you wanted. Want to be a blacksmith? Go for it. Want to go from house to house stealing stuff? Fine!
Even the skill system represents non-linearity. Instead of being locked into a specific progression path (levels) you can literally choose how your character progresses.
People are pissed about ESO because it looks like it's going to be significantly more linear that Skyrim. Classes, levels, factions-for-life, those all are linear things. And it really looks like it's going to have your standard themepark leveling structure as well where you start in a lower level area and progress quasi-linearly to higher level areas.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Story wise it is linear but as all Elder Scrolls have been you can go where you want, when you want, how you want and DO whatever you want. There are no restrictions whatsoever. TESO takes all that made what the ES games are all about and throws it out the window. It is sad to see.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
That's because in Skyrim the mobs scale up as you level. This would not work in a MMORPG where players of different levels might lay in the same area. A level 1 player would not like if all of a sudden all the mobs he was fighting became level 50 because a level 50 player is passing through the area. I guess a MMORPG could allow a level 1 character pickup level 50 quests but it would be pretty much pointless.
agreed.
Thing is I would like people who think Skyrim is not a sanbox to list 10 single player games that they consider to be sandboxes just for the mental exercise.
That said, the industry considers GTA a sandbox and in that game its impossible to see the other 1/2 of the map without doing the quests. In Skyrim not only can you choose to not do quests you dont gain progression any better or easier if you do the quests. THAT is a perfect design.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Of course you impact the world, you're following a script in Skyrim. So long as you do the quests, you are going to end the civil war, you are going to defeat the dragons, you are going to become head of the Mage College and the Companions and the Thieves Guild. These are all things that are pre-scripted, everyone does them. Sure, there are a couple of pivotal choices you can make in the game, going with Imperial or Stormcloak, etc. but you don't have a choice to entirely opt out of those major questlines unless you just ignore large portions of the game.
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Well to be fair you can kill anyone you want, steal anything you want, etc.. These aspects of Skyrim are actually more sim like if anything though. BUy into shops, make money from that, buy a house and just sit around and read books that you've collected. explore dungeons for treasure and secrets. I mean there's plenty to do without following the main story.
IF you boil it down TES games are essentially RPGs, action games (combat), sims, adventure games (hidden objects, investigation). All in one offering. There's only a few major game types missing from the package, Building, Racing and Sports (well there's hunting) only one of which is all that popular on PC.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Also wanted to ask what the point of this OP was?
Are you trying to "out" sandbox fans for liking a game that you think is a themepark, but liking sandboxes too? Like that is some kind of huge taboo that is going to blow our minds?
I mean...I liked WoW but I loved UO as well. Does that freak you out or something?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Indeeed. I wondered this same thing myself. Btw, I highly doubt ESO will allow you to level by simply sneaking, stealing and pickpocketing. (please oh please prove me wrong!!)
In Skyrim, can I make the character I want or am I forced to choose between pre-defined classes? I'm free to make the character I want.
In Skyrin am I forced to simply bounce between quest hubs to find any enjoyment or progression or can I freely roam around and do random things that I find enjoyable? I'm free to roam around and do as I please.
But wait.... theres more....
If you played Skyrim as if it were a themepark game then it actually is a short game and you would miss out on a ton of areas, dungeons, items, fights, etc. The bulk of the content is still found by wandering around like it's a sandbox.
If you want to treat Skyrim and ES games in general like they are themeparks then be my guest, just don't come complaining about how little there was or how short the game was.
The ES games are not themeparks, they are sandbox games that do have a themepark side to them. I mean for crying out loud in Oblivion you could kill important characters for the themepark side of the game and still continue playing. You'd never be able to complete the themepark side of the game but it did not end.
But, I will do me and you both a favor OP. I won't be responding to anymore of your threads or posts. How you became a spotlight poster is beyond me, you seem to be lost when it comes to discussing gaming, mmo's, or much of anything thats regularly discussed here.
Same crap, different day.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
This.
Don Quixote's Delusions
There are plenty of other threads concerning Skyrim and TES series and if they are sandbox or themepark.
Do we really need another
Looks like the poster just wants to get his thread in the Spotlight
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ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Therefore we need more horizontal progression and less artifical vertical progression. At least it is the way to go for a more non linear world. Because you are right, you cant scale mobs, therefore you should not scale the players unneccessarily up.
Get rid of unreal HP, DMG and Stat boosts. Difference between lvl1 to lvl50 dont have to be a factor of 1000, 1:2 may be really enough, the same for DMG or everything else. Instead, give more options, more ways to choose whereas you progress, and especially more non combatant skills. Pathfinding, Climbing, Cathography(come on, i dont want a map from the get go), Navigation, and what not. But the same with Combat.