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Recommended KOTAKU article: It’s Time to Take These Old MMO Games Out Back and Shoot Them

ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,912Member Uncommon

A REALLY good article that SO sums up my feelings about the state of MMOs in particular.

http://kotaku.com/5908402/its-time-to-take-these-old-mmo-games-out-back-and-shoot-them

(YIKES! I had linked the wrong article. lol. Ok THIS is the REAL one. Gomen. Thanks TwoThreeFour.^^)

 

"Veteran designer Warren Spector, whose credits include Deus Ex and System Shock, puts it best when he said in this 2007 interview "I'm one of those people who doesn't find anything interesting at all in leveling up, finding a +3 sword or paper-dolling a character with a purple cloak. That doesn't appeal to me in any way as a human being. Put that all together and the play experience of MMOs is on par with roleplaying back in ‘87.(OMG YES A 1000 TIMES YES!)

From cooldowns to instances to collecting ten of anything, most MMOs were, and still are, chores dressed up in the livery of a fictional universe. Aside from the basics of exploration and the lure of collecting loot and levelling up, there's been only one thing keeping people playing them, and stopping them from realising there's little difference between the banality of their daily grind to that of, say, a Farmville player."

 

Go and read the rest in the link. ^^

People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

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Comments

  • thekid1thekid1 GroningenPosts: 789Member Uncommon

    mawkishly digestible neoteny

  • vee41vee41 TamperePosts: 191Member

    Have to agree with the writer, it is nice that we have plenty of MMOs to choose from but do they all need to have pretty much the same mechanics in different graphical style and setting? Not counting the few innovative ones that take their own path, like EVE or GW2. This is of course a topic that has been discussed to death but it is still, sadly, relevant.

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride San''doria, WIPosts: 3,988Member

    Good read, bit to focused strictly on TOR, but it gets the point across.

  • DjildjameshDjildjamesh maasdijkPosts: 406Member Uncommon

    good article about star wars i must say :)

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,912Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    I think you may have linked to wrong article.
     
    Think http://kotaku.com/5908402/its-time-to-take-these-old-mmo-games-out-back-and-shoot-them is what you wanted to link to, I hope? And not http://kotaku.com/5810509/the-more-they-keep-telling-me-star-wars-the-old-republic-isnt-like-world-of-warcraft-the-less-i-want-to-play.

    Oopsy daisy! You are right. Thanks, I corrected the link. image

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member Common
    "To be clear: I've always hated MMO games. "

    This disclaimer is in every damn Kotaku article about MMOs that I read. They are openly hostile to MMOs in general and their writers don't play them.

    This article also states that the mmo genre is dying and that soon noone will make MMOs any more.


    I find it hard to take them seriously on any topic related to MMOs. They simply have no credibility on the subject am frequently don't know what the f they are talking about.

    Some will say that their outside perspective on the genre is valuable, but I disagree. They dont know what they are talking about and they are very clearly biased.

    Shadow's Hand Guild
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  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 6,230Member Uncommon

    Playing MMOs has made me miss PnP games.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Amory, MSPosts: 2,551Member Uncommon

    Article kinda lost all credibility when it stated that TERA offers a radical departure from WoW's tired old formula.

  • SiveriaSiveria Saint John, New BrunswickPosts: 1,234Member Uncommon

    I kinda agree with that article, its the same thing I been saying, people are just getting tired of the same boring wow formula being used in all games and want some innovation, but no dev really wants to step up to the plate.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • dllddlld GöteborgPosts: 578Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    Article kinda lost all credibility when it stated that TERA offers a radical departure from WoW's tired old formula.

    I do agree with the general point of the article but yeah the writer lost his credibility with that especially when the gripes he mentioed about mmo's where grinding quests and instances for better gear and levels. 

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,234Member Uncommon

    Kind of 50-50 on that article.  But this quote from it sums up a bit of my feelings of the staleness of MMORPG gaming for years now.

    "This insistence on using established MMO tropes rather than attempting genuine innovation in the genre has long amazed me. It's as though publishers and developers looked at World of Warcraft's subscriber base and thought, wow, that game had 10-15 million players, we should get in on that action."

    This was exactly the point of concern some forward looking MMORPG players had back in 2004, when it was becoming apparent how WoW was going to dominate the genre.  The fear that other developers will be shocked and amazed at the WoW Juggernaught, and will slavishly mimic its traits to no end in an effort to get a piece of that WoW Pie.  Back then though, we mocked them as being paranoid naysayers.  Well, as it turns out and looking at how MMORPGs are now, they were completely right.

    Also, the use of Warren Spector for his quote on MMORPG in general needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  He has a list of great accomplishments as a game designer, and PC gamers from the 1990s will likely remember him from those days.  But he has his roots in RPGs, not necessarily MMORPGs, which are quite a bit different in execution.  But, he does have a point in how progression has been done with the genre.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,912Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    "To be clear: I've always hated MMO games. "



    This disclaimer is in every damn Kotaku article about MMOs that I read. They are openly hostile to MMOs in general and their writers don't play them.



    This article also states that the mmo genre is dying and that soon noone will make MMOs any more.





    I find it hard to take them seriously on any topic related to MMOs. They simply have no credibility on the subject am frequently don't know what the f they are talking about.



    Some will say that their outside perspective on the genre is valuable, but I disagree. They dont know what they are talking about and they are very clearly biased.

    The difference is, he hates MMOs for a reason, and he is very clear about his reasons! You can still disagree with that, but just brushing it off as mindless hate is just absurd.

    A genre can just as well die and still have many customers, because it is dying as a game idea, as an art, as creativity. Look, no single entertainment genre has been SO conservative and stuck in an old paradigm as the MMO genre! Where all other types of games advanced, MMOs still stick to age old concept. And the basic concepts of MMOs are indeed very, VERY primitive. See the wonderful Warren Spector quote in my sig.

     

    Ultima Online and SWG had laid great foundations what MMOs COULD have been. But today, all MMos are about fast levelling through pseudo-stories which do not matter at all, and endgame rubbish like dailies, arena pvp and hardmode dungeons. It is WAY too much revolving about some loot or rewards! I said it many times, one of the best times I had in a MMO was City of Heroes, because it had NO loot at all! These are all McDonalds type of MMOs.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • EsidarEsidar WarszawaPosts: 8Member Uncommon

    Author of the article misunderstands the principles of the genre. There were always single player games, massive multiplayer ,and multiplayer games somewhere in between. Sure you can say that MMORPG must be more single player or more multiplayer, but this will just make make a new genre, and it doesn't mean there's a need  to remove existing one. It's like saying "I've been playing Tetris for 20 years (was made in 20th century!!!!) and it's time for changes ! I want social interaction ! I want shooting !", fine, move to different genre and have all those thing, but tetris should stay tetris.

    It's not like, MMORPG doesn't need to improve. Sure, there's always room for improvements, but massive multiplayer online is a very wide spectrum of games, heck, even Zynga games can be called MMO, and that's fine, there's room for many different games. If one game is done bad, it doesn't mean that genre is doomed!!11 and must change !!11 it simple mean that the game is done bad, and usually mixing two different principles are to blame.

  • Salio69Salio69 under a rock, FLPosts: 428Member Common

    this guy sounds like a fruitcake. Tera is as generic of an asian grinder as generic can be. just has prettier graphics than most. "radical departures" lmfao. this idiot has no idea wtf hes on about. anyone who takes what he whines about serious, is a fool too.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member Uncommon

    Compared to other genres mmorpgs are still in their infancy.

    To expect a radical depature of core mechanics because you played a mmo like a addict is imo idiotic.

    The basic structure of mmos will never change.

    Look at games like Guild wars 2 or Tera what makes them so different from Everquest and WoW?

    Because Guild wars 2 has a dodge button? Am I not still clicking on a mob with my mouse and activating skills off an action bar? Whats so different in TERA manual aiming? What is manual aiming? Putting my mouse cursor over an enemy and clicking abilities that are on my action bar... the same shit i've been doing for 15 years.

    Both tera and gw2 offer action bar combat, questing, character progression and some type of repetitive endgame  mechanic to keep the player base interested. 

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by Elikal
    The difference is, he hates MMOs for a reason, and he is very clear about his reasons! You can still disagree with that, but just brushing it off as mindless hate is just absurd.

    Is well-reasoned hate really any better?  Let's try that out as a hate crime defense, your honor.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • vee41vee41 TamperePosts: 191Member

    Originally posted by Z3R01

    Compared to other genres mmorpgs are still in their infancy.
    To expect a radical depature of core mechanics because you played a mmo like a addict is imo idiotic.
    The basic structure of mmos will never change.
    Look at games like Guild wars 2 or Tera what makes them so different from Everquest and WoW?
    Because Guild wars 2 has a dodge button? Am I not still clicking on a mob with my mouse and activating skills off an action bar? Whats so different in TERA manual aiming? What is manual aiming? Putting my mouse cursor over an enemy and clicking abilities that are on my action bar... the same shit i've been doing for 15 years.
    Both tera and gw2 offer action bar combat, questing, character progression and some type of repetitive endgame  mechanic to keep the player base interested. 

    I have to disagree on the bit about GW2. It does not really offer any sort of endgame in traditional sense, the whole concept of endgame does not exist in GW2, also character progression plays far smaller role than in more traditional games. While mechanics are still your MMO standards, the concepts behind the game have been rethought to offer less progression based experience. I hope this works out for them as the whole gear/levelling thing became stale 8 years ago.

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member
    Yet look at the really old MMOs. M59, UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, CoH, SWG - all so different from one another. Then along came WoW, opening the genre up to millions of new players, and instead of taking advantage of that, devs have been squandering the opportunity by making one sub-par WoW clone after another. Maybe what the genre really needs is to get back to its pre-WoW roots, to start growing again.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Yet look at the really old MMOs. M59, UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, CoH, SWG - all so different from one another. Then along came WoW, opening the genre up to millions of new players, and instead of taking advantage of that, devs have been squandering the opportunity by making one sub-par WoW clone after another. Maybe what the genre really needs is to get back to its pre-WoW roots, to start growing again.

    To be fair, there were originally a lot of terrible ideas in those games that were so different from each other; the 'Formula' had to be developed before it could be used in game mass production.  Mistakes had to be made.

    The biggest fault is that once the Formula appeared, evolution stopped.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    Originally posted by Elikal

    A REALLY good article that SO sums up my feelings about the state of MMOs in particular. ...

    Frankly, while the article runs on a popular sentiment these days, it's really a bad article because it's basic logic is wrong.

    The very first sentence is a give-away already, he's talking about the current crop of MMOs as traditional MMOs. Hint: they're not, they're traditional to people that think WoW was the first MMO to come out. The author briefly mentions Everquest and Eve but he doesn't seem to have any experience with MMORPGs outside of the WoW formula.

    He then continues to state that he always hated MMO games. Small wonder, he seems to favour action games - nothing wrong with this preference, but you can't expect all games to play like your favourite genre. How boring would gaming be if all games were action games?

    But his biggest logical fallacy is probably to accuse the current themeparks not to think "of a way to get the hundreds of millions of people who don't play MMO titles interested in the genre". Hell. that's exactly what these games are doing. WoW didn't get it's large number of players from the existing MMO fanbase - they got it from people not having played MMOs before. In fact all these themeparks are exactly doing what he says they don't: they're primarily aimed at people outside of the MMO fanbase.

    That's why we get themeparks with popular IPs, easy mechanics, lots of cutscenes and a bunch of you-are-the-hero-stories: to attract new people to the genre. The MMO fanbase buys the games anyway, no need to design games for them.

    And, after all this, the author mentions Red Dead Redemption, ArmA, Mount & Blade, Tera and Guild Wars II as positive examples. We get it. He doesn't like RPGs, he wants his favourite action games with an MMO dressing. That's all there is to this article.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Yet look at the really old MMOs. M59, UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, CoH, SWG - all so different from one another. Then along came WoW, opening the genre up to millions of new players, and instead of taking advantage of that, devs have been squandering the opportunity by making one sub-par WoW clone after another. Maybe what the genre really needs is to get back to its pre-WoW roots, to start growing again.

    The first few years of the genre it was still trying to build an identity for itself. When EQ released that became the foundation for the majority of the games after. Even games like DAoC and SWG modeled themselves fundamentally off of EQ.

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,021Member Uncommon

    Funny thing is we had this same very discussion several times in the forums as of late.  So its old news.  The only thing I really got is that kotaku hates swtor, and loves tera. 

    I do agree with most of wha tthe article said, some old forumla, just games with new skins on them.

     

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,922Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Elikal

    A REALLY good article [...]

    The "good" article can be summarized by a single line from it:

    > To be clear: I've always hated MMO games.

    If you hate bananas, you cant write a good article about them.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,712Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    "To be clear: I've always hated MMO games. "



    This disclaimer is in every damn Kotaku article about MMOs that I read. They are openly hostile to MMOs in general and their writers don't play them.



    This article also states that the mmo genre is dying and that soon noone will make MMOs any more.





    I find it hard to take them seriously on any topic related to MMOs. They simply have no credibility on the subject am frequently don't know what the f they are talking about.



    Some will say that their outside perspective on the genre is valuable, but I disagree. They dont know what they are talking about and they are very clearly biased.

    This. I'm an avid follower of Kotaku, but they make no bones about their.....distaste...for MMOs. Even when they review one, they'll tell you as much.

     

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

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