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ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    Originally posted by Jakdstripper

    Originally posted by DAS1337

     

    You guys and your Mortal Online and Darkfall love.  It's so mindnumbingly ridiculous.  Just because it is the best adaptation of what is currently available does not make it a good system.  The most damning evidence of the 'Greatness' of those combat systems is the fact the neither of them have more than 10,000 active subscriptions.  Don't pull any B.S. about the games being niche, because there have been hundreds of thousands of people who have tried those games and 99% of them have left. 

     

    Those combat systems are littered with lag, glitches, warping, phasing, blinking, exploitation and complete and utter failure.. the fact that you can actually use them as a positive in nearly any situation is mind blowing.  These systems are a black hole for players.  They try it and vanish forever.

     nobody said DF and MO are good examples, but they examples that it is possible to do it.

    all we are saying is that if such small companies can do all that, then bigger companies should have no problem in doing it right. they just dont want to even try.

     

    your negativism is a perfect example of lack of vision.

     

     

    Actually, you're wrong.  Someone in this very thread said they worked "perfectly".

     

    I also said, if you read this thread, that it is possible, but not the most efficient or popular combat system.

     

    You don't know if bigger companies won't do it based on it being a flawed system or because they are lazy.  You can't assume either.


  • Originally posted by DAS1337

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


    Originally posted by DAS1337


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


    Originally posted by DAS1337

     

    This conversation is pointless.  What we have in front of us is quite a few games with a FPS combat system that doesn't work.  Either that, or it is significantly less efficient than what TESO is going to use.  Until you can actually argue why it is better, we pretty much have to assume that it simply isn't.

    but they DO work.

    are you seriously trying to say that the combat engine in darkfall 'dosent work'? its as good or better than Skyrim combat

    darkfall has a very good combat engine built by a small staff. PEROID.

    It zenimax doesnt want to hire people to build and maintain one that is a different story but to say its not possible or that darkfall doesnt have a good one is beyond asine.

    Wow, I am so surprised that you ignored the second part of that statement!!  So surprised! 

     

    In case you don't understand sarcasm, I'm pointing it out for you.

     

    "Either that, or it is significantly less efficient than what TESO is going to use"

     

    I don't care if the staff is one person or one thousand people, if any system is less efficient than another, it is still less efficient.  Unless you consider a system where you have to pre-load spells, go in and out of combat mode, UI mode, and exploration mode.  Where hotkeys do not trigger upon pressing them and you go in and out of third person, completely breaking up the entire flow of combat... better.  No.  I just gave reasons why it is less efficient.  Now go ahead and try to argue it.  You can't. 

     

    Oh, but that doesn't support your argument?  I'm sorry?

    everything you have just said in detail darkfall does and they do it extreemly well.

    WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    sorry for the rage not all of them but most of them and it will work not mostly becuase its currently working perfectly.

    Nobody has an issue with darkfall combat engine.

     

    You guys and your Mortal Online and Darkfall love.  It's so mindnumbingly ridiculous.  Just because it is the best adaptation of what is currently available does not make it a good system.  The most damning evidence of the 'Greatness' of those combat systems is the fact the neither of them have more than 10,000 active subscriptions.  Don't pull any B.S. about the games being niche, because there have been hundreds of thousands of people who have tried those games and 99% of them have left. 

     

    Those combat systems are littered with lag, glitches, warping, phasing, blinking, exploitation and complete and utter failure.. the fact that you can actually use them as a positive in nearly any situation is mind blowing.  These systems are a black hole for players.  They try it and vanish forever.

    BECAUSE 99% of players like yourself are to fucking pussy to play them in a full loot sandbox game and handle the bandits and griefers and the reason they have bugs is because its only indie companys who ar enot controlled by EA games or some other WE ONLY CARE ABOUT MONEY NOT THE GAMERS bullshit company. A game doe snot need 100 million subs to be good...

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    I think many who defend the decisions is forgetting that they don't have to copy exactly of whats in the Single Player Games, they can reinvent and reiterate the mechanics in their own way. They can utilize FFA loot but in their own FFA loot ways, not in others that was already done to death.

    Game Development doesn't have one true ways of doing things, GW2 proves that.

    TESO can have its own FFA loot system and combat system that was never done before that will still work. The only problem is they went right out the gate saying they are using WOW combat mechanics, and Familiar MMO styles.

    Thats the slap in the face.

    Fallout 3 changed the ways Fallout was played before, WOW changed the way MMO is played, GW2 changed the way Quests are given to the players, TERA and GW2 changed the way combat in an MMO plays. Why couldn't TESO chang the way TES is played?? currently its because their developers don't want to. And thats the big middle finger to gamers, atleast based on what information available.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by DAS1337


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

     

    It is not nonsense, it is my expirience playing the game.

    I have tried Darkfall, Twice in fact, because it has so many of the features that I am looking for in a game. I really want a game where you used and Item and you gain in skill.

    Both times I had the same expirience. I started playing, I enjoyed it until a bunch of guys in plate mail killed me. So you rez, go back to your body, or just go to your bank and get some more armor and go out again, then you get ganked again by a bunch of veterans in much better armor.

    The second time was a little different because there was a little bit of a waiting piriod before I could be killed. but the moment the waiting piriod was over I was killed over and over by the Veterans of the game, while I was trying to kill goblins or just collecting materials for crafting.

    When They are on horse back you can't get away, when they are in finely crafted armour and you are out numbered you can't win.

    In EVE there is a saying, "If you die, it is your own fault" and it is true. Because what that means is, you could have done something to prevent it. There is no preventing your death in Darkfall by playing smart. It is just a bunch of guys who don't want a real fight attacking player they know can't really fight back.

    So yeah, Getting ganked over and over by expirienced players is not my type of game, nor is it most peoples type of game.  However, you get rid of that one feature and you have the makings of a pretty good game. Add in some of the skyrim ES features and lore and you could have a really great game.

     

    as a DF player I dont completely agree with your details but overall your right. The number 1 reason people quit darkfall is the FFA PvP. The rest of the game is brilliant and aside from needing more quests and more content in the world itself (more mobs etc). The 'grind' as people call it is directly related to losing at battle so I consider that to be part of the number 1 reason anyway.

    Completely overblown misconception.  Do you not think that the people who try darkfall don't already know that it is a full loot, open FFA PvP game?  Of course they do, don't be silly.  Most people understand that they will be killed early and often.  Most people realize that the game just isn't up to your typical MMO standards after years of post-launch fixing.

    oh they completely know its FFA PvP and they think they are up for it but when they get in they change their mind but do it by making up excuses. like 'its the grind!'

    its like the guy who joins that marathon who has done some running before but never a really hard core marathon. He thinks he is bad a$$ but then finds out not so much so he blames it on the wind.

    and yes I am saying gamers are immature and not in tune with themselves or reality

    Are you saying that grinding for 6-8 months to be remotely viable wasn't a flaw in their design?  My point proven.  You can mention more things and I can explain why those things also drove people away from those games.  The point however is that their combat systems aren't that great.  Otherwise more people would be playing.  I will say that Darkfall is the best of the inneficient and unpopular FPS MMO combat systems.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    Originally posted by Gisborne

    Originally posted by DAS1337


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


    Originally posted by DAS1337


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


    Originally posted by DAS1337

     

    This conversation is pointless.  What we have in front of us is quite a few games with a FPS combat system that doesn't work.  Either that, or it is significantly less efficient than what TESO is going to use.  Until you can actually argue why it is better, we pretty much have to assume that it simply isn't.

    but they DO work.

    are you seriously trying to say that the combat engine in darkfall 'dosent work'? its as good or better than Skyrim combat

    darkfall has a very good combat engine built by a small staff. PEROID.

    It zenimax doesnt want to hire people to build and maintain one that is a different story but to say its not possible or that darkfall doesnt have a good one is beyond asine.

    Wow, I am so surprised that you ignored the second part of that statement!!  So surprised! 

     

    In case you don't understand sarcasm, I'm pointing it out for you.

     

    "Either that, or it is significantly less efficient than what TESO is going to use"

     

    I don't care if the staff is one person or one thousand people, if any system is less efficient than another, it is still less efficient.  Unless you consider a system where you have to pre-load spells, go in and out of combat mode, UI mode, and exploration mode.  Where hotkeys do not trigger upon pressing them and you go in and out of third person, completely breaking up the entire flow of combat... better.  No.  I just gave reasons why it is less efficient.  Now go ahead and try to argue it.  You can't. 

     

    Oh, but that doesn't support your argument?  I'm sorry?

    everything you have just said in detail darkfall does and they do it extreemly well.

    WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    sorry for the rage not all of them but most of them and it will work not mostly becuase its currently working perfectly.

    Nobody has an issue with darkfall combat engine.

     

    You guys and your Mortal Online and Darkfall love.  It's so mindnumbingly ridiculous.  Just because it is the best adaptation of what is currently available does not make it a good system.  The most damning evidence of the 'Greatness' of those combat systems is the fact the neither of them have more than 10,000 active subscriptions.  Don't pull any B.S. about the games being niche, because there have been hundreds of thousands of people who have tried those games and 99% of them have left. 

     

    Those combat systems are littered with lag, glitches, warping, phasing, blinking, exploitation and complete and utter failure.. the fact that you can actually use them as a positive in nearly any situation is mind blowing.  These systems are a black hole for players.  They try it and vanish forever.

    BECAUSE 99% of players like yourself are to fucking pussy to play them in a full loot sandbox game and handle the bandits and griefers and the reason they have bugs is because its only indie companys who ar enot controlled by EA games or some other WE ONLY CARE ABOUT MONEY NOT THE GAMERS bullshit company. A game doe snot need 100 million subs to be good...

    Dismount your high horse there fella.  I played Ultima Online for five years and that was one of the main things I loved about the sandbox MMO's.  It's also a reason why I attempted to play Darkfall and Mortal Online.  You are completely out of line.  I think a system used by those games, which you want in TESO, is not good and I've explained why.

     

    You've resorted to name calling and immaturity.  *Thumbs up*

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    Originally posted by Lucioon

    I think many who defend the decisions is forgetting that they don't have to copy exactly of whats in the Single Player Games, they can reinvent and reiterate the mechanics in their own way. They can utilize FFA loot but in their own FFA loot ways, not in others that was already done to death.

    Game Development doesn't have one true ways of doing things, GW2 proves that.

    TESO can have its own FFA loot system and combat system that was never done before that will still work. The only problem is they went right out the gate saying they are using WOW combat mechanics, and Familiar MMO styles.

    Thats the slap in the face.

    Fallout 3 changed the ways Fallout was played before, WOW changed the way MMO is played, GW2 changed the way Quests are given to the players, TERA and GW2 changed the way combat in an MMO plays. Why couldn't TESO chang the way TES is played?? currently its because their developers don't want to. And thats the big middle finger to gamers, atleast based on what information available.

    We don't know all the details yet.  I would be somewhat inclined to agree with you though.

  • skeaserskeaser Wichita Falls, TXPosts: 3,847Member Uncommon

    Why not meet in the middle like TERA did? A good mix of normal hotbar combat and manual aiming with dodging/rolling?

     

  • An FPS/SANDBOX Genre is the ONLY place an TES MMO Belongs. Guilds owning castles, faction warfare, sieges, full loot pvp, FPS, a big random world to explroe with randomy generated quests...

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    Originally posted by skeaser

    Why not meet in the middle like TERA did? A good mix of normal hotbar combat and manual aiming with dodging/rolling?

     

    They are doing something a little different from WoW.  It's rumored to be sort of like a skill deck, Ala GW1.  Basic attacks, buffs, power attacks, ultimate attack.  With manual blocking, sprinting and such that uses up fatigue, similar to TES games.  It's not exactly the same as WoW.

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Gisborne

    An FPS/SANDBOX Genre is the ONLY place an TES MMO Belongs. Guilds owning castles, faction warfare, sieges, full loot pvp, FPS, a big random world to explroe with randomy generated quests...

     i disagree on the full loot pvp part.

    95% of mmo players don't want to play full loot games. full loot should be a server choice. forcing people into a full loot pvp game is a huge mistake. it should only be one option.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    Originally posted by Gisborne

    An FPS/SANDBOX Genre is the ONLY place an TES MMO Belongs. Guilds owning castles, faction warfare, sieges, full loot pvp, FPS, a big random world to explroe with randomy generated quests...

    I agree with most of that.  I don't agree with FPV and full loot.  As the viewpoint didn't maek the game.  I and many other people played the last two in 3rd person.  Yes it wasn't easy in Oblivion.  Full loot was never in TES games, only on NPC's.  FPS drives people away from the game.  Think of it less as selling out, but picking the most appropriate system to give your players the best experience possible.  People are too bogged down with what they think is right, and less about what actually is right.  Or at the very least, a better choice.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by DAS1337

    Are you saying that grinding for 6-8 months to be remotely viable wasn't a flaw in their design?  My point proven.  You can mention more things and I can explain why those things also drove people away from those games.  The point however is that their combat systems aren't that great.  Otherwise more people would be playing.  I will say that Darkfall is the best of the inneficient and unpopular FPS MMO combat systems.

    1. first off this is not the place to debate over the grind of darkfall we all know how badly that conversation goes

    2. that said despite what many think the spread between vet and noob in darkfall stat wise is much smaller than in other MMOs and having a few noobs taking out a vet is not nearly as impossible as people think it just requires some training and usually being the hunter instead of the hunted. But like i say that is for a different forum.

    3. however, how long it takes to max our your character or become comepetitive is NOT the core FPS Engine. That is a balancing issue which to be very frank is easy to change and they have clearly decided to not change it for whatever reason.

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • As long as gear is easy to craft and you can kill mobs for gear ( unlike mo ) so if you die you can go far mobs for a full set of gear and loot then it will be ok and fun, it snot liek shit i died and lost my t13 raid wepaon i gridned for 3 months, you die with a blue longsword go farm a green one off a mob and that way you dont lose to much... also FPS makes it feel like you are there and experiancing the world not just watching a movie... up face to face with you enemy blocking with a shield reduces your view and not seeing the guy sneaking at the left of you to flank makes the game so much better imo and makes people more aware of the battlefield and challenging, i could deal with no full loot but everything els emus tbe in or it wont be a TES game and no point of an mmo, fuck it may as well play skyrim and tera for an mmo eh...

    They butcher the SW universe in SWTOR and they will only do the same for TES, make it a pegi 12 kiddie theme park oh yea... PEGI 12 you think we will get the 15+ game like skyrim ? nope fu pegi 12 in a kiddie universe...

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