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ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

     

    It is not nonsense, it is my expirience playing the game.

    I have tried Darkfall, Twice in fact, because it has so many of the features that I am looking for in a game. I really want a game where you used and Item and you gain in skill.

    Both times I had the same expirience. I started playing, I enjoyed it until a bunch of guys in plate mail killed me. So you rez, go back to your body, or just go to your bank and get some more armor and go out again, then you get ganked again by a bunch of veterans in much better armor.

    The second time was a little different because there was a little bit of a waiting piriod before I could be killed. but the moment the waiting piriod was over I was killed over and over by the Veterans of the game, while I was trying to kill goblins or just collecting materials for crafting.

    When They are on horse back you can't get away, when they are in finely crafted armour and you are out numbered you can't win.

    In EVE there is a saying, "If you die, it is your own fault" and it is true. Because what that means is, you could have done something to prevent it. There is no preventing your death in Darkfall by playing smart. It is just a bunch of guys who don't want a real fight attacking player they know can't really fight back.

    So yeah, Getting ganked over and over by expirienced players is not my type of game, nor is it most peoples type of game.  However, you get rid of that one feature and you have the makings of a pretty good game. Add in some of the skyrim ES features and lore and you could have a really great game.

     

    as a DF player I dont completely agree with your details but overall your right. The number 1 reason people quit darkfall is the FFA PvP. The rest of the game is brilliant and aside from needing more quests and more content in the world itself (more mobs etc). The 'grind' as people call it is directly related to losing at battle so I consider that to be part of the number 1 reason anyway.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • musicmannmusicmann port allen, LAPosts: 1,107Member

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

     

    It is not nonsense, it is my expirience playing the game.

    I have tried Darkfall, Twice in fact, because it has so many of the features that I am looking for in a game. I really want a game where you used and Item and you gain in skill.

    Both times I had the same expirience. I started playing, I enjoyed it until a bunch of guys in plate mail killed me. So you rez, go back to your body, or just go to your bank and get some more armor and go out again, then you get ganked again by a bunch of veterans in much better armor.

    The second time was a little different because there was a little bit of a waiting piriod before I could be killed. but the moment the waiting piriod was over I was killed over and over by the Veterans of the game, while I was trying to kill goblins or just collecting materials for crafting.

    When They are on horse back you can't get away, when they are in finely crafted armour and you are out numbered you can't win.

    In EVE there is a saying, "If you die, it is your own fault" and it is true. Because what that means is, you could have done something to prevent it. There is no preventing your death in Darkfall by playing smart. It is just a bunch of guys who don't want a real fight attacking player they know can't really fight back.

    So yeah, Getting ganked over and over by expirienced players is not my type of game, nor is it most peoples type of game.  However, you get rid of that one feature and you have the makings of a pretty good game. Add in some of the skyrim ES features and lore and you could have a really great game.

     

    as a DF player I dont completely agree with your details but overall your right. The number 1 reason people quit darkfall is the FFA PvP. The rest of the game is brilliant and aside from needing more quests and more content in the world itself (more mobs etc). The 'grind' as people call it is directly related to losing at battle so I consider that to be part of the number 1 reason anyway.



    Simple fix. Implement the same PVP overt/covert system SWG had, done. Now only those that wish to pvp 24-7 has the choice and those that want to pvp when they want to has a choice. It's a win-win situation.

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

     

    It is not nonsense, it is my expirience playing the game.

    I have tried Darkfall, Twice in fact, because it has so many of the features that I am looking for in a game. I really want a game where you used and Item and you gain in skill.

    Both times I had the same expirience. I started playing, I enjoyed it until a bunch of guys in plate mail killed me. So you rez, go back to your body, or just go to your bank and get some more armor and go out again, then you get ganked again by a bunch of veterans in much better armor.

    The second time was a little different because there was a little bit of a waiting piriod before I could be killed. but the moment the waiting piriod was over I was killed over and over by the Veterans of the game, while I was trying to kill goblins or just collecting materials for crafting.

    When They are on horse back you can't get away, when they are in finely crafted armour and you are out numbered you can't win.

    In EVE there is a saying, "If you die, it is your own fault" and it is true. Because what that means is, you could have done something to prevent it. There is no preventing your death in Darkfall by playing smart. It is just a bunch of guys who don't want a real fight attacking player they know can't really fight back.

    So yeah, Getting ganked over and over by expirienced players is not my type of game, nor is it most peoples type of game.  However, you get rid of that one feature and you have the makings of a pretty good game. Add in some of the skyrim ES features and lore and you could have a really great game.

     

    as a DF player I dont completely agree with your details but overall your right. The number 1 reason people quit darkfall is the FFA PvP. The rest of the game is brilliant and aside from needing more quests and more content in the world itself (more mobs etc). The 'grind' as people call it is directly related to losing at battle so I consider that to be part of the number 1 reason anyway.

    The bad thing is, I really wanted to like Darkfal which is why I tried it a second time, the second time was the US server, the first time was back when there was only one server.

    I was hoping that as the game matured, that the killing Noobs thing might have died down. Anyway, I still don't dislike Darkfall, It just isn't for me.

    That is why I think a Darkfall styled Elderscrolls game would be great, A hybrid of the two.

  • LordRelicLordRelic clearfield, UTPosts: 281Member

    Lol DF was horrid from the concept phase and a stated that.  Same with mortal online.  Teso may be differant if they dont focus it on pvp thats when games fail. If you build around pvp to please pvp players you end up with DFO were ppl quit in weeks.

    As for the combat system they can have pretty much what they have in the single player ( it will need tweaks and probably some Brilliant coding done)  but possible  if the investors are willing to spend the money  ( and good luck with that ).

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Darkfail is a pile of garbage. I wouldnt want TESO to model after it any more than Id like it modeled after WoW or SWTOR

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by musicmann



    Simple fix. Implement the same PVP overt/covert system SWG had, done. Now only those that wish to pvp 24-7 has the choice and those that want to pvp when they want to has a choice. It's a win-win situation.

    Agreed. I would make some minor modifications to that.

    For example, waring clans can not toggle when and where pvp happens. If you leave the clan and come back you lose your some clan related stat until certian time passes that way clan members can toggle at will.

    Never the less the tweaks are easy.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • astoriaastoria Silver Spring, MDPosts: 1,681Member

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

     

     

    I don't know why it would need to be much better than Darkfall. The combat in DF was great in my opinion. The UI is bad, the uncapped and redundant skill system is bad, but once you built yourself a nice autohotkey script to switch weapons and all it is pretty damn awesome. Melee just needed more skills and better animations. They core was good. 

    "Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga

  • dooneydooney MandurahPosts: 69Member

    Originally posted by astoria

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

     

     

    I don't know why it would need to be much better than Darkfall. The combat in DF was great in my opinion. The UI is bad, the uncapped and redundant skill system is bad, but once you built yourself a nice autohotkey script to switch weapons and all it is pretty damn awesome. Melee just needed more skills and better animations. They core was good. 

    This

  • TROLL_HARDTROLL_HARD Caucasian/WhitePosts: 312Member

    As others have mentioned, after having played both Darkfall and Mortal Online, I find it more credible to say "extremely difficult to do well" rather than  "not possible." 

  • SalengerSalenger Pottageville, ONPosts: 521Member

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     

    Yes they could have, Only thing about darkfalls combat that makes it fun is the free aim FPS, Melee Combat in Darkfall is really crap. All they had to do is not make it Tab target...meaning not make it a heaping pile of crap with a TES label on it.  

    BTW why bring up Darkfall the game is dead, finished..ruined...and lowest population it ever has been.

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by salenger

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     

    Yes they could have, Only thing about darkfalls combat that makes it fun is the free aim FPS, Melee Combat in Darkfall is really crap. All they had to do is not make it Tab target...meaning not make it a heaping pile of crap with a TES label on it.  

    BTW why bring up Darkfall the game is dead, finished..ruined...and lowest population it ever has been.

    It had potential though, you have to admit.

    In my opinion there is ONE MECHANIC in DF melee combat that ruins it and makes it totally silly: if you get hit in the back you take 40% more damage.  I understand where this idea came from, but the result is a chicken-with-heads cut off sticky-backing figure-eight sprinting melee fight, not a deliberate, careful duel.

    For that kind of thing I would go to Mortal Online, which has combat closer to Mount&Blade but only first person, you can't even go into third (to prevent people corner-looking most likely).

    I wish Zenimax would have taken the best parts of both those systems and put them into ESO.

    All major features of Skyrim are possible in an MMO setting, with minor tweaks at best.  Hotbars are fine, nothing wrong with hotbars, both DF and MO have them for quick access to vital items, and in DFs case, some cool-down abilites.  Nothing wrong with that, but it's the visceral, punchy combat immersion that I would want to see from ESO and we aren't getting it.  I love TES but that as well as the art-style are deal-breakers to me.

  • MORTAL ONLINE     http://www.mortalonline.com/index.php

    Is a 100% first person only MMO action combat game, its basically Elder scrolls online in a full sandbox world...

    here is a duel i had with a friend, a bit dark as it was night but you will see sword and shield combat with no armour

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdUpX4VJWCs

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Gisborne

    MORTAL ONLINE     http://www.mortalonline.com/index.php

    Is a 100% first person only MMO action combat game, its basically Elder scrolls online in a full sandbox world...

    here is a duel i had with a friend, a bit dark as it was night but you will see sword and shield combat with no armour

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdUpX4VJWCs

    completely agree.

    if Star Vault can almost pull it of with absolutely no money, no talent, absolutely no experience and not a friken clue on how to make an mmo (they had to get a fan to make the original game launcher because the one they built didn't work half the time, that's just how cluless SV was when they started MO)  there should be no problem for a big company with competent programmers and money to pull it off.

     

    not to mention DF has an aim based combat, FE also, now Tera, and other games as well.

     

     

    it's definately possible, not easy or cheap, but definately possible. the problem is nobody want's to risk spending the money needed to make it a reality without knowing if it will sell. it is a big gamble since fps combat is quite new and not universally accepted in the mmo world as of yet.

     

     

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Jakdstripper

    Originally posted by Gisborne

    MORTAL ONLINE     http://www.mortalonline.com/index.php

    Is a 100% first person only MMO action combat game, its basically Elder scrolls online in a full sandbox world...

    here is a duel i had with a friend, a bit dark as it was night but you will see sword and shield combat with no armour

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdUpX4VJWCs

    completely agree.

    if Star Vault can almost pull it of with absolutely no money, no talent, absolutely no experience and not a friken clue on how to make an mmo (they had to get a fan to make the original game launcher because the one they built didn't work half the time, that's just how cluless SV was when they started MO)  there should be no problem for a big company with competent programmers and money to pull it off.

     

     

    it's definately possible, not easy or cheap, but definately possible. the problem is nobody want's to risk spending the money needed to make it a reality without knowing if it will sell.

     

     

    totally agree..

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by salenger

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     

    Yes they could have, Only thing about darkfalls combat that makes it fun is the free aim FPS, Melee Combat in Darkfall is really crap. All they had to do is not make it Tab target...meaning not make it a heaping pile of crap with a TES label on it.  

    BTW why bring up Darkfall the game is dead, finished..ruined...and lowest population it ever has been.

    I think you might be delusional its far from dead, finished or ruined and there is a great active populaton on the US server..

    Darkfall combat is good in many wales its fast enjoyable combat, its not suppose to be realistic.. if you want a more tactical combat system check out Mortal Online.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member

    Originally posted by Jakdstripper

    Originally posted by Gisborne

    MORTAL ONLINE     http://www.mortalonline.com/index.php

    Is a 100% first person only MMO action combat game, its basically Elder scrolls online in a full sandbox world...

    here is a duel i had with a friend, a bit dark as it was night but you will see sword and shield combat with no armour

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdUpX4VJWCs

    completely agree.

    if Star Vault can almost pull it of with absolutely no money, no talent, absolutely no experience and not a friken clue on how to make an mmo (they had to get a fan to make the original game launcher because the one they built didn't work half the time, that's just how cluless SV was when they started MO)  there should be no problem for a big company with competent programmers and money to pull it off.

     

    not to mention DF has an aim based combat, FE also, now Tera, and other games as well.

     

     

    it's definately possible, not easy or cheap, but definately possible. the problem is nobody want's to risk spending the money needed to make it a reality without knowing if it will sell. it is a big gamble since fps combat is quite new and not universally accepted in the mmo world as of yet.

     

     

    Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

     

     

    Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

    again completely agree.

    ever since i've played TES and my first mmo (WoW) i've dreamd of just that: a TES mmo. a first person mmo in the world of the Elders Scrolls.

    i've been dreaming of this for years now and now that it's finaly being made it's going to be nothing like TES.

    there is nothing but disappointment here and i know i wont be playing this game if it feels more like Rift/SWTOR then Mortal/TES.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

    Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

    Problem is if they designed the game solely with TES fans in mind, they'd be making the same exact mistake Bioware made with TOR. TES fans in general are SP RPG fans, not MMO fans, there is crossover sure, but when designing an MMO you have to think about what works well in an MMO first and foremost.

    ~On top of that~

    IF you took the actual design of TES and put it in MMO format, those who come from a TES only background would not be accustomed to players having an impact on their experience. Theivery, kill anyone at anytime, etc... These people are used to themselves having that impact on the world, not players having that impact on each other. That is two totally different things. TES's actual ruleset and options would create one of the most lawless game environments in existence.

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • wartyxwtwartyxwt margatePosts: 172Member

    SO you don't like Darkfall or Mortal, this magically means the technology doesn't exist?

     

    I SEE WOT U DID THAR! (it wasn't very clever)

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by GrayGhost79

    Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

    Problem is if they designed the game solely with TES fans in mind, they'd be making the same exact mistake Bioware made with TOR. TES fans in general are SP RPG fans, not MMO fans, there is crossover sure, but when designing an MMO you have to think about what works well in an MMO first and foremost.

    ~On top of that~

    IF you took the actual design of TES and put it in MMO format, those who come from a TES only background would not be accustomed to players having an impact on their experience. Theivery, kill anyone at anytime, etc... These people are used to themselves having that impact on the world, not players having that impact on each other. That is two totally different things. TES's actual ruleset and options would create one of the most lawless game environments in existence.

     

     

    I cant speak for all TES fans but speaking for myself TES being single player or not has nothing to do with my experience at all. In fact, for the past several years I have been playing Darkfall because its (in my mind) the closest representation of TES that I am aware of until Skyrim came out.

    So again, single player not single player doesnt matter to me as a TES player. What DOES matter however is FPS view, emmersion, able to go anywhere for my own path and not penalized for not doing quests, and a huge world that doesnt look like a cartoon

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinPosts: 1,277Member Uncommon

    If you know the Massively site and the "Anvil of Crom" that had a new article recently where the US based Author talks about to play on the European Server and the increase of Ping up to 250 ms and more and Players from Australia and NZ write comments that they have Pings of 500ms and more hurting their pvp experience its pretty obvious why a worldwide mmo not can have use of real time action combat.

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

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  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    i dont agree Distopia

     

    hard core TES fans will be horrified at how different this mmo feels from the orginal game. the only thing that will resemble their beloved TES will be lore but the game it'self will feel nothing like TES. TES has an incredibly unique feel to it exactly because it's mostly a fps experience, with incredible graphics and freedom.

     

     

    long time mmo fans will only see just one more WoW clone loosely based on the TES lore. there wont be anything unique about this game and the majority of features will be better done in other games they are already playing. there will be nothing new about this game and it will just more of the same old tired formula with a new skin.

     

     

    this is why there are som many damn hate threads. nobody is happy here.

     

     

     

     

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Distopia


    Originally posted by GrayGhost79



    Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

    Problem is if they designed the game solely with TES fans in mind, they'd be making the same exact mistake Bioware made with TOR. TES fans in general are SP RPG fans, not MMO fans, there is crossover sure, but when designing an MMO you have to think about what works well in an MMO first and foremost.

    ~On top of that~

    IF you took the actual design of TES and put it in MMO format, those who come from a TES only background would not be accustomed to players having an impact on their experience. Theivery, kill anyone at anytime, etc... These people are used to themselves having that impact on the world, not players having that impact on each other. That is two totally different things. TES's actual ruleset and options would create one of the most lawless game environments in existence.

     

     

    I cant speak for all TES fans but speaking for myself TES being single player or not has nothing to do with my experience at all. In fact, for the past several years I have been playing Darkfall because its (in my mind) the closest representation of TES that I am aware of until Skyrim came out.

    So again, single player not single player doesnt matter to me as a TES player. What DOES matter however is FPS view, emmersion, able to go anywhere for my own path and not penalized for not doing quests, and a huge world that doesnt look like a cartoon

     

    I've had a similar experience with Mortal Online.  The technology is there, and a major company should be able to pull it off, if smaller companies can.

    Mortal has the FPS style combat and immersive first-person-view that was expected of TES, along with some of the sandbox concepts.  To me, it's the closest thing to an actual Elder Scrolls MMO there is.  Sounds like that will still be the case after TESO launches.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Thorqemada

    If you know the Massively site and the "Anvil of Crom" that had a new article recently where the US based Author talks about to play on the European Server and the increase of Ping up to 250 ms and more and Players from Australia and NZ write comments that they have Pings of 500ms and more hurting their pvp experience its pretty obvious why a worldwide mmo not can have use of real time action combat.

    I played on the DF EU server for 2 years at nearly 200 ping and that was nearly 1/2 the globe away from me. Anything over 200 ping you notice anything below 200 ping you dont notice but you can lose in battle. So solution?

    equalize those that have low ping. In other words make everyones ping at best 190 regardless of how close you are to the server.

    Now its also important to note that DF has a different focus that TES. That is a hard core combat game with many sociopathic players who adore FFA PvP and the game tries to be the most hard core there is.

    Elder scrolls just needs FPS combat, not the BEST FPS MMO combat

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper logan lake, BCPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    ping is only a problem of not having enough surver spread out through the world. MO for example only has 1 Europena server. DF only has 2 server, one in europe and one in north america. of course you'r gonna have ping issues when you got people plaing from Australia, Canada, Russia, Brazil, Sout africa etc etc.

     

    a large company with money should have no problem having 1 or 2 servers per continent, especially if the game has a healthy subscription base (which a true TES mmo would have). this would pretty much eradicate severe ping issues.

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