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ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    I am starting to feel that the ESO annoucement is the best advertising Darkfall 1 & 2 could hope for.

    I hope Zenimax keeps saying what is not possible in an MMO, its brilliant advertising.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by adam_nox

    This misconception is perpetuated by apologists for the mainstream mmos, and those involved in the development and profiteering of those mmos, and to a smaller degree by people who believe this BS about network technology not being good enough. 

     

    It needs to stop.  We need to stop making excuses for this kind of crap.

    Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by adam_nox

    This misconception is perpetuated by apologists for the mainstream mmos, and those involved in the development and profiteering of those mmos, and to a smaller degree by people who believe this BS about network technology not being good enough. 

     

    It needs to stop.  We need to stop making excuses for this kind of crap.

    Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

    I have played Darkfall and Skyim and to be frank once you get use to the controls of Darkfall the combat experience between the two games is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is that Darkfall as a F8ck ton more options during combat and yet a player can still get to 100 or so spells without lifting their hand off the mouse of WSAD keys

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

    I have played Darkfall and Skyim and to be frank once you get use to the controls of Darkfall the combat experience between the two games is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is that Darkfall as a F8ck ton more options during combat and yet a player can still get to 100 or so spells without lifting their hand off the mouse of WSAD keys

    With Darkfall my biggest gripe is it seemed they focused so much on combat (which I wasn't a fan of their implementation) the rest of the game suffered, it didn't have a whole lot of options when I gave it a spin, it simply seemed as though the only thing to do was PVP and PVP some more (not to mention the mob grind). Which I'm fine with to an extent, but I feel M&B warband (& others) does/do it way better, even if numbers aren't as massive, and most are free after a small box purchase. 

    That may have changed, but nothing I saw made me think about waiting around to see if it did.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

    I have played Darkfall and Skyim and to be frank once you get use to the controls of Darkfall the combat experience between the two games is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is that Darkfall as a F8ck ton more options during combat and yet a player can still get to 100 or so spells without lifting their hand off the mouse of WSAD keys

    With Darkfall my biggest gripe is it seemed they focused so much on combat (which I wasn't a fan of their implementation) the rest of the game suffered, it didn't have a whole lot of options when I gave it a spin, it simply seemed as though the only thing to do was PVP and PVP some more. Which I'm fine with to an extent, but I feel M&B warband (& others) does/do it way better, even if numbers aren't as massive, and most are free after a small box purchase. 

    That may have changed, but nothing I saw made me think about waiting around to see if it did.

    when talking about a feature one has to focus on the feature being discussed. Not how it all works in the game together.

    Anyone who suggests that a tight adrenaline puming FPS style combat engine is not possible in an MMO simply doesnt know what they are talking about or liying.

    When you start talking about, the game only focused on that, or, skills where not ballanced well etc that is a side note. not the key point.

    The ONLY valid technical arguement to be frank is number of players in game at once, thats it

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Distopia


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Misconception? The only examples we have are the examples we have, if an MMO came out with stellar tight responsive action combat that actually offered a full on game all done well, that conception would be different. Does that opinion make me an apologist?

    I have played Darkfall and Skyim and to be frank once you get use to the controls of Darkfall the combat experience between the two games is pretty much exactly the same. The only difference is that Darkfall as a F8ck ton more options during combat and yet a player can still get to 100 or so spells without lifting their hand off the mouse of WSAD keys

    With Darkfall my biggest gripe is it seemed they focused so much on combat (which I wasn't a fan of their implementation) the rest of the game suffered, it didn't have a whole lot of options when I gave it a spin, it simply seemed as though the only thing to do was PVP and PVP some more. Which I'm fine with to an extent, but I feel M&B warband (& others) does/do it way better, even if numbers aren't as massive, and most are free after a small box purchase. 

    That may have changed, but nothing I saw made me think about waiting around to see if it did.

    when talking about a feature one has to focus on the feature being discussed. Not how it all works in the game together.

    Anyone who suggests that a tight adrenaline puming FPS style combat engine is not possible in an MMO simply doesnt know what they are talking about or liying.

    When you start talking about, the game only focused on that, or, skills where not ballanced well etc that is a side note. not the key point.

    The ONLY valid technical arguement to be frank is number of players in game at once, thats it

    Well I disagree because the point is why didn't they or couldn't they do it? Is it not? In terms of game development it all goes hand in hand really.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Well I disagree because the point is why didn't they or couldn't they do it? Is it not? In terms of game development it all goes hand in hand really.

    let me make sure I understand this correctly.

    The combat engine features of Darkfall didnt work becuase they didnt put in enough other content in the game to do.The game as a whole was too focused on combat which is why the combat engine as a feature didnt work and couldnt work in an MMO.

     

    did I get that right?

    or another way to say it is 'Darkfall combat engine didnt work because the game didnt have enough quests'

     

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Well I disagree because the point is why didn't they or couldn't they do it? Is it not? In terms of game development it all goes hand in hand really.

    let me make sure I understand this correctly.

    The combat engine features of Darkfall didnt work becuase they didnt put in enough other content in the game to do.The game as a whole was too focused on combat which is why the combat engine as a feature didnt work and couldnt work in an MMO.

     

    did I get that right?

     

     

    No you didn't. I said I personally didn't like the combat, but the biggest problem I had with the game was that the game didn't seem to offer much more than PVP and mob grinding, and I think that has something to do with the time it took to get their combat to where it is.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member

    To use an analogy for my feeling of what Zenimax has done here.....If this were football, with TESO, Zenimax is starting out at 1st & 10 with the ball on the 50 yard line....and what play do they call to start out... PUNT!

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Well I disagree because the point is why didn't they or couldn't they do it? Is it not? In terms of game development it all goes hand in hand really.

    let me make sure I understand this correctly.

    The combat engine features of Darkfall didnt work becuase they didnt put in enough other content in the game to do.The game as a whole was too focused on combat which is why the combat engine as a feature didnt work and couldnt work in an MMO.

     

    did I get that right?

     

     

    No you didn't. I said I personally didn't like the combat, but the biggest problem I had with the game was that the game didn't seem to offer much more than PVP and mob grinding, and I think that has something to do with the time it took to get their combat to where it is.

     

    we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

    lets try to focus if we can

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

     

    we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

    lets try to focus if we can

    And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

     

    we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

    lets try to focus if we can

    And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

    Yes we know that.

    in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

    The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

    THAT we all know.

    Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member

    I hated the combat in Skyrim.  Playing a mage was pretty annoying since you constantly had to pause the game to cast more than 2 spells.  I don't think making a combat system like that would work in an MMORPG mainly because it sucks.  I understand why they want to come up with something new and they should.  I just worry that they will pull a Bioware and make an extremely bad game like SWTOR.  If they are creative, and they actually decide not to clone WoW, then maybe they can come up with a great game.  My money is on TES online being a crappy WoW clone like SWTOR.  However, I would be happy to be proven wrong. 

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  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Distopia


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


     

    we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

    lets try to focus if we can

    And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

    Yes we know that.

    in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

    The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

    THAT we all know.

    Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

    Weren't you just telling me too focus on combat engines?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • biogermbiogerm somewherePosts: 169Member

    Originally posted by AdamTM

    Originally posted by greyed-out


    Originally posted by AdamTM


    Originally posted by tatbounty

    guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

    In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

    Due to the situational awareness advantages of Third Person, in any multiplayer or competitive environment would just about force you to use it, so the game would be very difficult to balance between the two.  Other devs have spoken about this before; in reality it would come down to just using one or the other.

    Multiplayer shooters like War Inc. Battlezone offer both third person play and first person play.

    They dont seem too concerned about the ballancing issues.

    Especially since you would have the -choice- and if it turns out that TP is prefferable for PVP, everybody is still on the same footing with TP, because everyone can use it in PVP, but in PVE you could still have immersion if you want. Not everyone will want to PVP.

    There are no ballancing issues with this, especially if you take turn-based or roll-based combat into account with tab-target.

    Tribes ascend also have FP and TP, and most of the time you will be in FP, id say like 90% of the time.

     

    no balance issues with that.

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

     

    we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

    lets try to focus if we can

    And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

    Yes we know that.

    in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

    The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

    THAT we all know.

    Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

    Weren't you just telling me too focus on combat engines?

    its called sequitur.

    normal conversation flow isnt like this

    person 1: I think darkfall combat engine is great and I dont see why an engine that like that couldnt work in an MMO

    person 2: no it would work becuase I didnt like darkfall that much becuase it was too focused on combat.

    so a FPS combat engine in an MMO DOES work, someone not wanting to hire the staff to do it is a different conversation

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Distopia


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


     

    we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

    lets try to focus if we can

    And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

    Yes we know that.

    in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

    The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

    THAT we all know.

    Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

    I'll take that a bit further and say that the front desk at Zenimax has more programming and design skills than the entire AV team.  =)

  • adam_noxadam_nox hays, KSPosts: 2,036Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by BigHatLogan

    I hated the combat in Skyrim.  Playing a mage was pretty annoying since you constantly had to pause the game to cast more than 2 spells.  I don't think making a combat system like that would work in an MMORPG mainly because it sucks.  I understand why they want to come up with something new and they should.  I just worry that they will pull a Bioware and make an extremely bad game like SWTOR.  If they are creative, and they actually decide not to clone WoW, then maybe they can come up with a great game.  My money is on TES online being a crappy WoW clone like SWTOR.  However, I would be happy to be proven wrong. 

    About skyrim combat, part of mage woes had to do more with the inability to craft your own spells, which in oblivion you'd only need one or two damage spells to be effective, so it worked well, plus it was a little faster to switch (at least on consoles). 

    I think both spell crafting and the ability to have a better hotkey system (I like on consoles where you hold a shoulder button to bring up an 8 direction menu, it's so fast and intuitive, every rpg should use it) would fix the combat issues, which show that the issue isn't really skyrim combat per se, but a kind of meta gameplay involving the UI, so not particularly relevant to this convo.

  • DAS1337DAS1337 Parma, OHPosts: 2,404Member

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Originally posted by Distopia


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


    Originally posted by Distopia


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD


     

    we are not talking about the game as a whole. I thought we were trying to compare combat engines.

    lets try to focus if we can

    And my opinion toward the OP's question, one which I've stated more than once in this thread. Is that I don't think the issue is not being able to do it (because it's impossible), it's not wanting to because they don't want to focus efforts so much on one feature like a combat engine, IE: getting the polish level they'd want with it. Because as I said it all goes hand in hand when it comes to game development. Too much fcous on one feature takes away from others.

    Yes we know that.

    in fact, they have made it clear they really dont want to focus on anything.

    The sad fact is a 3rd rate developer company with virtually no money is doing it but for profit margins TES developers want to not spend the development time because they have the title and they know that will pull in people.

    THAT we all know.

    Understand that AVs development team is likely to be able as large as the front desk help at Zenimax

    Weren't you just telling me too focus on combat engines?

    its called sequitur.

    normal conversation flow isnt like this

    person 1: I think darkfall combat engine is great and I dont see why an engine that like that couldnt work in an MMO

    person 2: no it would work becuase I didnt like darkfall that much becuase it was too focused on combat.

    so a FPS combat engine in an MMO DOES work, someone not wanting to hire the staff to do it is a different conversation

     

    This conversation is pointless.  What we have in front of us is quite a few games with a FPS combat system that doesn't work.  Either that, or it is significantly less efficient than what TESO is going to use.  Until you can actually argue why it is better, we pretty much have to assume that it simply isn't.

  • greyed-outgreyed-out buttercupsville, OKPosts: 99Member

    Originally posted by Omali

    Fine then, I'll set up my own Elder Scrolls game with blackjack and hookers. Actually, forget the game and the blackjack. 

    LOL. Winner!

    I've found the first leaked screen shot of your new Elder Scrolls MMO; looks awsome dude! Really nice rendering of the Orc female.

     

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by DAS1337

     

    This conversation is pointless.  What we have in front of us is quite a few games with a FPS combat system that doesn't work.  Either that, or it is significantly less efficient than what TESO is going to use.  Until you can actually argue why it is better, we pretty much have to assume that it simply isn't.

    but they DO work.

    are you seriously trying to say that the combat engine in darkfall 'dosent work'? its as good or better than Skyrim combat

    darkfall has a very good combat engine built by a small staff. PEROID.

    It zenimax doesnt want to hire people to build and maintain one that is a different story but to say its not possible or that darkfall doesnt have a good one is beyond asine.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Its really sad when Darkfail is used as a positive example

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  • dadante666dadante666 buford, GAPosts: 404Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

     

     

    mmo is not define by the combat  other than the publicity and  the masive person in 1 area or open world ,combat can be very unique in mmo so basically all game fit in mmo  as for theyr combat is up to the creator .

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  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member

    Originally posted by TGSOL

    I think if you asked every single TES fan, you'd find that the vast majority of people would rather have a small scale (2-8 player) multiplayer version of something like Skyrim than a generic WoW-esque MMO.

     

    I know I'd choose Skyrim with a few friends over this MMO any day.

    Every person I know agrees with you. Co-op TES much more appealing than a MMO because you can never have the TES feel in a MMO no matter what they try to do.

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    Originally posted by Thorbrand

    Originally posted by TGSOL

    I think if you asked every single TES fan, you'd find that the vast majority of people would rather have a small scale (2-8 player) multiplayer version of something like Skyrim than a generic WoW-esque MMO.

     

    I know I'd choose Skyrim with a few friends over this MMO any day.

    Every person I know agrees with you. Co-op TES much more appealing than a MMO because you can never have the TES feel in a MMO no matter what they try to do.

    Agreed.

    I'll pass on Elder WoW, thanks.

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