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ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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  • YellowbearddYellowbeardd Wetaskiwin, ABPosts: 82Member

    The TES series have been played by millions of players all over the world and loved by the same and to go and make an mmo would be great news for most but the news of them not making the game for what the TES series is loved for is wrong and i hope they see the error of their ways and fix this issue and hopefully satisfy there fanbase instead of ignoring them for they are the reason why TES is what it is and have supported them through their journey to the top of the single player RPG heap and to ignore the fans will destroy them 100% gaurantee.

  • Zeref.DyverZeref.Dyver North Richland Hills, TXPosts: 270Member

    Alright so Jedi Outcast was released around 2000 and Jedi Academy was released a few years later. I'm guessing you never played these, i did, online, for about 9 years straight. Has the best real time combat sword fighting in any game ever, every move is controlled (more so when you get really good) and calculated. It's all about finding a weakness, and countering your opponents moves. Jedi Outcast did this perfectly online around the year 2000. You are telling me that 12 years later, it is IMPOSSIBLE to implement meaningful swordplay into an MMO? You are joking right?

    It's not at all impossible. It's the fact that game developers are getting LAZY and GREEDY. They want to make an MMO because, if succesful, it's one of the biggest money makers in the world. And making MMO's is hard work, especially if you are trying to be innovative... So what do they do? They take the easy road, trying to make a quick buck, and just copying everybody else.

    I think that pretty much sums it up.

     

    After readinf some more replies I wanted to add that this game had guns with many varying projectile speeds as well. It all worked very well.

  • xenogiasxenogias warsaw, INPosts: 1,926Member

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

     

     

    If you enjoy that style of combat in the single player then why wouldnt you enjoy it in multiplayer? I'm not saying TES games combat is perfect, its far from it. But to go as far as to say classes with turn based combat? No.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,923Member Uncommon

    No, the combat is very possible in an MMo. The problem comes to other areas in the game that people enjoy that just wouldn't work in an MMo. The games are based off a world which you effect and can explore. What you do has effects upon the world. In an MMo, this would be near impossible, mostly since after the first person lands his mark, no one else can do the same. Taking claim of a home would only work for one player in particular locations. Story events would be practically non existant since there are so many players at different points that no real effect can befall the world. Essencially your choice and their effects would be greatly hindered which is a big factor in why the games are so well liked. 

     

    In order to mimic those features from a single player MMO, its going to alienate a lot of players and leave many unhappy. Housing would likely be limited in numbers forcing many to go without. Having the same house able to be bought by a bunch of players will lose immersion as players will see others sitting right outside the door, feeling more so that the house doesn't actually belong to them. the actual size of the world would have to be huge in order to really even get players to get the sensation of exploration, cause face it, seeing a bunch of people in the same areas would make it feel that much less adveturous when going into the cave someone else just entered into. It would pretty much be... well... SWTOR. 

     

    The combat is not at all what is holding it back. While some elements can be a bit hard to handle (large crowded places with tons of effects going off) its still possible for it to happen. The issue comes when those details of immersion, getting your own places, joining guilds, all of those things meant to shaep your character and the world just do very little to effect the character, nevermind the world. 

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Los Angeles, CAPosts: 2,555Member

    Originally posted by GTwander

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

    Take it as you will, but; Mortal Online

    If a bunch of amatuers can get that close, then seasoned pros can nail it - the problem is that suits do NOT want to invest time/money/effort into creating or licensing an expensive engine - thusly, they went with the HERO one, because it's easy enough to push out a cookie-cutter one in record time. Sad.

    I think the team behind HERO engine are just pimping their product out as much as possible, cutting back on licensing, making it a steal... I mean, why wouldn't they? It's already growing a bit tired because of SW:ToR, imagine what happens when 2-3 games exist that use it and are more "samey" than ANY two games could ever get, even if they tried to.

    But on another note The Repopulation MMO that is in alpha right now is using the Hero Engine as well and that game is the spiritual sucessor to SWG with all the good things about it in this game the skill point system, player based economy , SWG type crafting and resources, player housing and cities that is on the Hero Engine its not the engine that's at fault here its the people who make bad games with the engine...

    http://www.therepopulation.com/

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  • Zeref.DyverZeref.Dyver North Richland Hills, TXPosts: 270Member

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bnyDMehfEs

    This is the game I was talkin about. And it gets quite a bit more intense than that at the level I played at. Point is not the point out how great Jedi Academy is (even though it is) but to prove that this type of combat was possible online many years ago.

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Los Angeles, CAPosts: 2,555Member

    Originally posted by elvenwolf

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt5AmqA3STc

     

    I guess they had more resources of Zenimax.

    I play that a lot :P great game :P

    image

  • elvenwolfelvenwolf RomePosts: 139Member

    Thank you, i like Mount &  Blade too, and the combat system i would say is quite fun to play, and it was developed by people that had a very small budget, it was done quite some time ago.

    So i would say if that can hold 120 and more players in a battle with medieval weapons, mounted combat and all that, i would think a company with the resources of TESO developers  might have done it even better ?  I think at least?

    Was really SO impossible to do?

     

     

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,737Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

     

    PS2 uses guns, which fire at a rate that isn't detectable by naked eye. So there is no need to balance Ranged combat to the Melee Cmbat.



    In a fantasy theme game which has you shooting different kind of magic attacks out as well as Melee combat, this could throw balance out the window, with certain magic attacks hitting faster than others from range, or Melee attacks that are gimp from ranged alone. Also let's not forget that usually in Tab Target MMO, the spells are way more unique and interesting that simple damage types from aim combat games.

    And yet the best weapon in Skyrim is a dagger.

     

    Yes, there is a certain need to account for the power scale of advanced weaponry, but that's also a line that, just like how the game mechanics operate, can be fibbed versus reality.

     

    I mean, in the first place how many people do you know that can take more blows from an iron mace to the head than a steel one? The game in spite of it's sense of immersiveness does maintain a relatively shallow concept of item and ability power and progression.

     

    You want to make the MMO balanced on that front? Then transfer those aspects over with the game. None of ot would come as a suprise to the elder scrolls players since that's how the single player games play in the first place, with draw/load time on a bow versuss the swing time on a sword, or in SKyrim the secondary abilities you can use to balance your melee skills against a caster such as the charge dragonshout or directional powerattacks and effects you have on each weapon type.

     

    And I really don't buy that last comment about spells. I mean look at Midas Magic for Oblivion or the extra effects possible in Skyrim that people have been adding into spells. Aside from combat spells you end up having time magic, teleportation, transportation, summoning, alteration, auras, stat boosts/sugmentation, and any number of script effects that you can think up.

     

    That is a factor that solely boils down to individual group creativity, not the capacity of the game.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • XarnthalXarnthal Landenberg, PAPosts: 130Member

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

     

     

    If they want to do it right they'll just use Darkfall combat. It's some of the best PvP combat available out there and IMO also shows off player skill more than any other eSport MMO can.

    Sennheiser
    Assist
    Thage

  • Half_Man_Half_ToonHalf_Man_Half_Toon NO, CAPosts: 156Member

    Originally posted by Xarnthal

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

     

     

    If they want to do it right they'll just use Darkfall combat. It's some of the best PvP combat available out there and IMO also shows off player skill more than any other eSport MMO can.

    I dunno if you notice this bro but in Tera Online you can use a Onza Razer Controller that can be use on Xbox Live 360 Or Computers Pc Becouse it has a USB Device connecter rdy with drivers for Both Xbox 360 and Computers PC so is possible and also Guild Wars 2 can Maybe have that.

  • AutemOxAutemOx Fullerton, CAPosts: 1,704Member

    I thought SWTOR would be the last AAA straight up clone of WoW... But I guess I was wrong.  ESO, you are late to the game bro.

    Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.

  • HrothaHrotha -Posts: 821Member

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    if mortal online and darkfall can do it why can't TESO?

    The answer is, zenimax want to make the most amount of money possible with minimal amount of effort. thats software development 101 right there.

    I already sensed that when I first saw the screenshots. Low polygon, dull colors but trying to make it colorful. Strangely WoW-ish colorful, not like TES we used to know. The armors look completely different, the character-design in gerneral also. And I can tell you that the animations will be clunky.. maybe barely on the edge to look smooth.

    The good thing on this low-budged-griefing-players development is, that a person with a functioning brain knows exactly what company one is not gonna buy games anymore from.

    I am simply not supporting Activision anymore since the COD5-flaw - I know people are doing the same, not a huge amount yet (compared to the pre-order sales) but it IS going upward. And the list continues with other publishers and developers.

    The sad thing is, that there is till a huge number of players who are just blankly consuming without actually thinking what they are consuming. A majority seems to be on autopilot. Good job media, btw. Most of them are Americans due to several researches. Why is that so? Critical thinking shouldnt be region-restricted...

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  • calranthecalranthe stoke on trentPosts: 356Member

    Originally posted by Uhwop

    Originally posted by caremuchless


    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    If so how?

     

    ^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

     

     

     Meridian 59 did it 17 years ago, with slower processors and GPU's as well as dial up internet.

    Some of you really need to move, that rock has got to be cramped.

    Very true, if you took the skyrim engine, reformed it as a client base certain civil war mods have shown it can handle 200+ npc on screen at once, create a minimal bandwith sync server based Dbase, add ownership flags to all items, a base chat system, voice.

    Optimize it for skyrim style combat, balance enemies based on how many people in the dungeons (some areas would need redoing because of the cramped quarters).

    You could have a 1-200 person version of skyrim with ability to save progress and modable.

    Cost would be a lot less, arenas could be pvp flagged, instances and open world combat, you would need 1-2 years of developement to make it actually work and let me ask you.

    IF that was possible (look at the base model of 2 worlds upto 8 people fps magic all real time in instances) would like me you be omg yes please!!!

    It may not be an mmo but it would fit TES far better.

  • OmaliOmali MMO Business Correspondent Orchard Park, NYPosts: 1,114Member Uncommon

    Fine then, I'll set up my own Elder Scrolls game with blackjack and hookers. Actually, forget the game and the blackjack. 

    Check out my monthly column on MMORPG.com.

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  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member

    Originally posted by greyed-out

    Originally posted by AdamTM


    Originally posted by tatbounty

    guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

    In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

    Due to the situational awareness advantages of Third Person, in any multiplayer or competitive environment would just about force you to use it, so the game would be very difficult to balance between the two.  Other devs have spoken about this before; in reality it would come down to just using one or the other.

    Multiplayer shooters like War Inc. Battlezone offer both third person play and first person play.

    They dont seem too concerned about the ballancing issues.

    Especially since you would have the -choice- and if it turns out that TP is prefferable for PVP, everybody is still on the same footing with TP, because everyone can use it in PVP, but in PVE you could still have immersion if you want. Not everyone will want to PVP.

    There are no ballancing issues with this, especially if you take turn-based or roll-based combat into account with tab-target.

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  • dooneydooney MandurahPosts: 69Member

    I don't see the problem with Darkfall combat, more fun than all other MMORPGs I've played.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

     

     

    I am confused. Why not make the combat like darkfall?? works well for me and its in the 'spirit' of TES if not done even better than.

    FOLKS: for the most part Skyrim is Darkfall. Yes Skyrim graphics are better and yes it has more dynamic aspects but Darkfall also has seigable cities and spawnable boats.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • xr00t3dxxr00t3dx Norcross, GAPosts: 275Member

    100% completely possible. I'm not sure where you logic on this is comming from but lets re-evaluate, mkay.

  • OnigodOnigod Noord-HollandPosts: 688Member

    They could have gone for a Mount and blade stype of combat system.

     

    Even Darkfalls combat system is really good beside missing a few things and having awfull melee animations wich should get alot better in Darkfall 2.0 (relaunch)

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by calranthe

    Originally posted by Uhwop

    Originally posted by caremuchless

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    If so how?

     

    ^and the above poster, I guess thats an idea.

     

     

     Meridian 59 did it 17 years ago, with slower processors and GPU's as well as dial up internet.

    Some of you really need to move, that rock has got to be cramped.

    Very true, if you took the skyrim engine, reformed it as a client base certain civil war mods have shown it can handle 200+ npc on screen at once, create a minimal bandwith sync server based Dbase, add ownership flags to all items, a base chat system, voice.

    Optimize it for skyrim style combat, balance enemies based on how many people in the dungeons (some areas would need redoing because of the cramped quarters).

    You could have a 1-200 person version of skyrim with ability to save progress and modable.

    Cost would be a lot less, arenas could be pvp flagged, instances and open world combat, you would need 1-2 years of developement to make it actually work and let me ask you.

    IF that was possible (look at the base model of 2 worlds upto 8 people fps magic all real time in instances) would like me you be omg yes please!!!

    It may not be an mmo but it would fit TES far better.

    I would pay $15 a month for Skyrim exactly as it is but with a few hunderd players online on map instance and holdings that were conquerable before I paid $15 a month for what I have heard about TES Online so far.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Originally posted by Onigod

    They could have gone for a Mount and blade stype of combat system.

     

    Even Darkfalls combat system is really good beside missing a few things and having awfull melee animations wich should get alot better in Darkfall 2.0 (relaunch)

    The TES Online details means good news for Darkfall 2

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • adam_noxadam_nox hays, KSPosts: 2,073Member Uncommon

    This misconception is perpetuated by apologists for the mainstream mmos, and those involved in the development and profiteering of those mmos, and to a smaller degree by people who believe this BS about network technology not being good enough. 

     

    It needs to stop.  We need to stop making excuses for this kind of crap.

  • KarahandrasKarahandras Sible HedinghamPosts: 1,673Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by adam_nox

    This misconception is perpetuated by apologists for the mainstream mmos, and those involved in the development and profiteering of those mmos, and to a smaller degree by people who believe this BS about network technology not being good enough. 

     

    It needs to stop.  We need to stop making excuses for this kind of crap.

    +1

     

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