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You lost me at Hero Engine

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  • Chrome1980Chrome1980 LondonPosts: 511Member

    Originally posted by Mike-McQueen

    No classic Elder Scrolls FPS? No thanks. Definitely saving my $ on this one. Will likely see anyone who tries it back in Tyria two weeks later. Good luck with that.

    Quite a bold statement there bud. Also GW2 is not an FPS game so i don't understand why would anyone go back to GW2 if lack of FPS combat is the reason they won't play TESO.

    Your post makes no sense or you were just trying to make GW2 look good?

  • kingwestkingwest quens, NYPosts: 9Member

    found this after i googled hero engine and found their website

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kZA9JCbVnzY#!

     

    a list of all the games they worked on if i am correct

  • SoulOfRazielSoulOfRaziel Porto FerreiraPosts: 405Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Mephster

    I think the Hero Engine is good but not for TOR or TES ips. It just doesn't fit well with the games.

    exactly Hero Engines isnt bad but it didnt work for TOR and prob wont work for TES online too

    image

  • WicoaWicoa LondonPosts: 1,602Member Uncommon

    Oh no not another one using the hero engine, they must be giving away sex with every purchase to shift code to this many devs.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,975Member Uncommon

    While Hero engine is far from the best engine out there saying that any game who use it must suck is rather dumb.

    The only MMO I can think of that failed because the engine is Vanguard, and that was because the engine were so poorly coded that the game were so bugged out it was close to impossible to play it at launch. it could still have done fine if they waited with the release until the engine was fixed up.

    ?The hero engine is not to blame for TOR, TORs issues is because Bioware made a single player MMO more or less. The game just isn't massive enough.

    A really good dev can make a great game with a poor engine even if it limits the option they have.

    I don't know enough of ESO to call it a good or bad game yet, but just saying it is trash because of the engine isn't fair at all.

  • jiveturkey12jiveturkey12 You havent heard of it, FLPosts: 1,262Member

    Originally posted by Loke666

    While Hero engine is far from the best engine out there saying that any game who use it must suck is rather dumb.

    The only MMO I can think of that failed because the engine is Vanguard, and that was because the engine were so poorly coded that the game were so bugged out it was close to impossible to play it at launch. it could still have done fine if they waited with the release until the engine was fixed up.

    ?The hero engine is not to blame for TOR, TORs issues is because Bioware made a single player MMO more or less. The game just isn't massive enough.

    A really good dev can make a great game with a poor engine even if it limits the option they have.

    I don't know enough of ESO to call it a good or bad game yet, but just saying it is trash because of the engine isn't fair at all.

    Woaaah, there is many more MMO's that have failed because of the engine. Case in point #1 Tabula Rasa.

     

    The fact that so many people on low end computers couldnt play the game without one of two things happening, either

     

    A. The game would lag severly with graphics set only to medium.

    or

    B. If you put the graphics on low the graphics looked like an N64 game (Seriously it was that bad).

     

    The fact is that you and alot of other people are missing out on my point (And this is no offense to you Loke cause I actually like alot of your posts) which is that "The Devs Lost me at Hero Engine" is for the fact that the hero engine should have no place in assocation with an Elder Scrolls game.

     

    Its just a bad pick for an engine to compliment the games lore, core fan base, and gameplay mechanics.

     

    Im sure an MMO can be made on the engine that is halfway decent, but the fact is thats never been shown by any of the multiutde of games thats been released on it, and again its just bad for ESO. Poor Descions from a Bad Director whose too old and wants to make money, sorry guys buy im saying it like it is and if people have a problem with that they are just blindlessly defending a game that theyve only known about for two days with no evidence to back up the supporting argument. Me and many other people in this post have sited failures of the hero engine yet people think we are the whiners and they can site any success of the damn engine? Think about it guys!

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,660Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by dontadow

    This is my problem, if you don't create your own engine for a game you are essentially copying and modifiying what other people are doing. 

    ...as one can easily see by comparing DAoC, Dragonica, Rift and WAR. ;)

    Or were you talking about how TERA. DCUO and APB are pretty much clones of each other?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • jiveturkey12jiveturkey12 You havent heard of it, FLPosts: 1,262Member
    Despite what other people are saying this isn't an anti-engine thread, to Loktofeit, all those games are made on a much more versitile engine than the hero engine. Again, the engine may have the capabilities of making good or decent games but it seems to be very limiting in many respects, as the ui and grahics from their games all look extremely similar despite the differences in games. Again Hero engine for ESO is a main reason the game will be generic and bland.
  • skydiver12skydiver12 burgundPosts: 432Member

    When you use an engine to create an mmo you need to take a special dumb into Threading.

    Many people mean things you usually don't have in a single player game need throttling and control in terms of prioritisation or delaying data paket streams.


    Even most small things like UI bufficons can kill your game performance because you have to update and coordinate for every member who can utilize this information.

    If i have a raidwide buff which influences 40 people, the client needs to update information on the buffbars of every member (if i have it visible). Add 20 effects to 40 members and you may end up having 5 fps because the UI bufficons clunkered your whole thread (if any seperated for UI) and killed all performance which was needed for FX updates, texture streaming, AI calculation etc.

    That's why in most mmos you can turn of buffs or other IU information and suddenly have a fluid game expirience during extreme "40 vs 40 pvp etc" situations.

    - LOTRO
    - SWTOR
    - WAR
    - AOC
    etc....

    WOW got it right today but not without the initaly failure too.


    Now these things do not only apply to UI bufficons, but to all UI information as well as ANY OTHER aspect. Your engine needs to be altered individually for your game to avoid shuttering.

    Aion and TERA have sliders for Texture and model straming during such situations. (Someone done his homework)

    This isn't a small thing.
    Designing threading is like designing the netcode from scratch. You need concepts and many proof of work hours plunged into it. It will define how your whole client loads and works with the information given.

    Personally when *i* as an armchair developer with personal interessts take on an Game Engine i will need someone with the knowhow to be aware of this and get this done. (haha good one, right EAware?)

    Concerning HEROENGINE. Now since they claim to be best fitting for MMOs i would think *someone* may have thought of this and given proper ease of developing in this field, right?

    Like presets where i can just adjust values, well documented for my mmo creation needs....right?

    DERP. (That's really the only MEME fitting)
    HEROENGINE doesn ot offer much when it comes to the real interessting core parts. But hey they got a dialogue editor where i can just type in questchains! YAY* (facepalm)


    I'm looking forward seeing framerate chocking, and "lag" mass PVP due to bufficons, stealth rogue detecting because the client always loads the rogues players full set without proper thread streaming and priorisation. (You always know when a rogue is nearby because your client hicks for half a second) - and my favorite. VRAM cluttering and RAM leaking due to many texture stream calls at once.

    In short an engine not optimized for any MMO environment.

  • Chrome1980Chrome1980 LondonPosts: 511Member

    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Originally posted by Loke666

    While Hero engine is far from the best engine out there saying that any game who use it must suck is rather dumb.

    The only MMO I can think of that failed because the engine is Vanguard, and that was because the engine were so poorly coded that the game were so bugged out it was close to impossible to play it at launch. it could still have done fine if they waited with the release until the engine was fixed up.

    ?The hero engine is not to blame for TOR, TORs issues is because Bioware made a single player MMO more or less. The game just isn't massive enough.

    A really good dev can make a great game with a poor engine even if it limits the option they have.

    I don't know enough of ESO to call it a good or bad game yet, but just saying it is trash because of the engine isn't fair at all.

    Woaaah, there is many more MMO's that have failed because of the engine. Case in point #1 Tabula Rasa.

     

    The fact that so many people on low end computers couldnt play the game without one of two things happening, either

     

    A. The game would lag severly with graphics set only to medium.

    or

    B. If you put the graphics on low the graphics looked like an N64 game (Seriously it was that bad).

     

    The fact is that you and alot of other people are missing out on my point (And this is no offense to you Loke cause I actually like alot of your posts) which is that "The Devs Lost me at Hero Engine" is for the fact that the hero engine should have no place in assocation with an Elder Scrolls game.

     

    Its just a bad pick for an engine to compliment the games lore, core fan base, and gameplay mechanics.

     

    Im sure an MMO can be made on the engine that is halfway decent, but the fact is thats never been shown by any of the multiutde of games thats been released on it, and again its just bad for ESO. Poor Descions from a Bad Director whose too old and wants to make money, sorry guys buy im saying it like it is and if people have a problem with that they are just blindlessly defending a game that theyve only known about for two days with no evidence to back up the supporting argument. Me and many other people in this post have sited failures of the hero engine yet people think we are the whiners and they can site any success of the damn engine? Think about it guys!

    Source of your information? as far as i know, the main reason (the general consensus on forums) why people quit was because of lack of support by the company and lack of any kind of end game. Updates were too slow and there was hardly any content added to the game.

    But please don't be shy to share link with us to show that Tabula Rasa failed due to its engine.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,660Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Despite what other people are saying this isn't an anti-engine thread, to Loktofeit, all those games are made on a much more versitile engine than the hero engine. Again, the engine may have the capabilities of making good or decent games but it seems to be very limiting in many respects, as the ui and grahics from their games all look extremely similar despite the differences in games. Again Hero engine for ESO is a main reason the game will be generic and bland.

    The look of the UI and the graphics have nothing to do with the graphics engine... at all. The engine renders the interface, models and animations that the developers create.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    all those games are made on a much more versitile engine than the hero engine. Again, the engine may have the capabilities of making good or decent games but it seems to be very limiting in many respects.

    In the whole thread I keep asking to name and explain those limitations of hero engine. Still no answer...

    So once again: Would you mind to name and explain those so called limitations and their dependency and relation to hero engine?

  • Chrome1980Chrome1980 LondonPosts: 511Member

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by jiveturkey12



    all those games are made on a much more versitile engine than the hero engine. Again, the engine may have the capabilities of making good or decent games but it seems to be very limiting in many respects.



     

    In the whole thread I keep asking to name and explain those limitations of hero engine. Still no answer...

    So once again: Would you mind to name and explain those so called limitations and their dependency and relation to hero engine?

     

     

    He won't reply. Every time you ask him to back up his claims he disappears. I am beginning to feel that i am being trolled.

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member

    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    I said yesterday that no matter how terrible the game looked i would play simply for being an Elder Scrolls game. That was before I found out that the game was running on the Hero Engine, the same terrible engine that TOR is running on. I dont know who in their right mind decided that the hero engine was gods gift to MMO's but its just aweful. Its one of those typical all fluff and no substance engines and its defiently one of the main reasons TOR failed and will be another reason why ESO fails. 

     

    Seriously this is one of the worst things that could have ever happened to ESO, and it just shows that even bethesda can fall victim to some sly marketing by a poor engine development company that couldnt even realease their OWN mmo with the damn engine. Seriously what are all these people thinking? Couldnt they just make their own in house engine? It all goes down to greed I guess, but the with HERO engine being so expensive to purchase and use is it really worth it in the end for these companys?

     

    Thank Talos (SADFACE) for Guild Wars 2...

    Just because BioWare fucked up with the Hero engine does not mean Zenimax Online Studios will. Imo BioWare are not that great when it comes to engines,take the first witcher game,it was made using the BioWare engine but they made it run/look way better than any Bioware game up to that point.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by jiveturkey12

    Im sure an MMO can be made on the engine that is halfway decent, but the fact is thats never been shown by any of the multiutde of games thats been released on it

    What constitutes "a multitude" to you?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Sylvarii
    Imo BioWare are not that great when it comes to engines,take the first witcher game,it was made using the BioWare engine but they made it run/look way better than any Bioware game up to that point.

    Coz NW/2 was the only game ever released using the engine? :)

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    I think until we get a game using the hero engine that we love, we are going to be skeptical.  Right now the most noteable example of this engine is TOR, and based on it's limitations we assume the engine is no good.  But perhaps it's just that Bioware's mmo developers are no good and did not use the engine properly.

     

    I don't really know if the engine is good or not because I'm not a computer programmer/developer.  What I can tell you is SWTOR is not the best advertisement for an engine.

  • Home15Home15 GentPosts: 203Member

    Already failed before it came out lol.

    Hero Engine is terible, no mater how you look at it.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,905Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Terranah

    I think until we get a game using the hero engine that we love, we are going to be skeptical.  Right now the most noteable example of this engine is TOR, and based on it's limitations we assume the engine is no good.  But perhaps it's just that Bioware's mmo developers are no good and did not use the engine properly.

     

    I don't really know if the engine is good or not because I'm not a computer programmer/developer.  What I can tell you is SWTOR is not the best advertisement for an engine.

    Many seem to not know that TOR's use of that engine was not really the hero engine any longer, they drastically overhauled it to suit their needs. Not to mention the engine they purchased was not the finsihed Hero engine but more or less a prototype build. I don't even believe BW had support from the company after it's purchase (a partnership).

    At least here (zenimax) they've partnered with the creators, which means they could end up with the actual engine and it's full capability. Depending on whether they've modded their usage of it or not, which I have no idea.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • GoldenArrowGoldenArrow TurkuPosts: 1,187Member Uncommon

    RvR + Hero Engine = Ilum!

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAPosts: 1,546Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Vorthanion

    Originally posted by Shodanas

    @OP & and the other doombringers swarming the TES forum since yesterday:

    So, a TES MMO is announced and although we don't have anything solid about the game yet you come here and bitch because you don't like the engine it's build on. I don't know if TES online will be a good or bad game, with ZeniMax chances are 50 / 50, but i do know that it will be a much better place to be without the likes of you. 

    Also, you should check the engine's website and try to comprehend it's many features before leaving your ignorant, spiteful and self-righteous comments here. 

    Having played WAR and TOR, I am not impressed with the engine nor its capabilities.  You sound just as self righteous as the ones you disparage.  We have plenty of solid evidence of the features and direction of the game, thanks to scanned pages of the Infogamer article, the link even present on this site no less.  Maybe you need to catch up with the rest of us before you make yourself look really silly.

    WAR didnt use the Hero Engine.. It used Gamebryo. Just like Rift..

    image

  • biogermbiogerm somewherePosts: 169Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by Terranah

    I think until we get a game using the hero engine that we love, we are going to be skeptical.  Right now the most noteable example of this engine is TOR, and based on it's limitations we assume the engine is no good.  But perhaps it's just that Bioware's mmo developers are no good and did not use the engine properly.

     

    I don't really know if the engine is good or not because I'm not a computer programmer/developer.  What I can tell you is SWTOR is not the best advertisement for an engine.

    Many seem to not know that TOR's use of that engine was not really the hero engine any longer, they drastically overhauled it to suit their needs. Not to mention the engine they purchased was not the finsihed Hero engine but more or less a prototype build. I don't even believe BW had support from the company after it's purchase (a partnership).

    At least here (zenimax) they've partnered with the creators, which means they could end up with the actual engine and it's full capability. Depending on whether they've modded their usage of it or not, which I have no idea.

     

    the base segment of the code will remain the same.


     


    the company i work for has bought over the years many smaller companies and integrated their own SW into our own,   


     


    everything that relate to the GUI side etc is being dealt by us (the mother company ) but all the R&D and issues. bugs etc. is still being dealt by the original people from the company that was bought,   



     


    since even if you change/. mix and match/ add features etc etc. the foundation of the code will still be the same,


     


    it is what everything else is build on.  


     


     


    most of the restrictions will remain the same.


     


    i believe that they sat down, and the HERO guys said:


     


    this is our engine, 


     


    he can do A.B. and C.


     


    you can modify it to also do D and E.


     


    and we plan to have it do F and G.


     


    now since the base code remain the same, the the HERO guys already sold the engine to biowere, it seems only logic to make future updates comfortable with existing code,


     


    even if that code has been heavily modified.  


     


    again this is all IMO, but with a pinch,


     


    i work for a SW company, with take products from Linux and put them in windows.


     


    and its not to take 1 product and add a unified GUI to it, its 10 different products, each is written in a different code, by different people,


     


    and all have to work together (i am talking about AV,AM AS,FW,VPN, AC, web secured, ip security and more...)


     


     


    actually i think it right on the lines of what the HERO guys posted or was quoted,


     


    something alone the lines" they bought the engine from us, and wanted nothing else from us.   


     


    both Bioware/EA, and Bethesda/Zanimax choose the easy way it seems. 


      


    I 3930k -- Rampage IV Extreme -- G.skill RipjawsZ 32 GB -- Corsair Force Series 3 120gb -- G.skill Phoenix Pro 60gb -- WD 1 TB Black -- Corsair H 100 -- Thermaltake Level 10 Gt Snow Edition -- Corsair AX1200 -- Asus 560 Ti Sli -- Microsoft Sidewinder X4 -- Logitech G5 -- DELL UltraSharp 2007FP -- Samsung Syncmaster Sa700 -- Logitech Z2300 -- Logitech G35 -- Logitech G600 White -- coming soon : Dell U2711.

  • AtonrahAtonrah Halifax, NSPosts: 1Member

    Wait a second, wait a second...


     


    TES is using an engine that was originally designed for an instanced based, small group, game called “Hero’s Journey”?


     


    An engine that struggles with more than 30 players on screen because it was originally designed for instanced based 4-8 man group?


     


    An engine that has such a hard time rendering dynamic shadows that day/night cycles can’t be implemented in its games?


     


    An engine that literally CAN’T make ‘sandbox’ worlds because it’s original intent was instanced based; Thus making open world exploring impossible and the idea of controlled flying travel or “flying mounts” completely and utterly non-existent?


     


    SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT...


     


    After the massive success of open world-free to do as you please  Skyrim they’re going to make an Elder Scrolls MMO game with a “theme parked” feel; no sand box open world, no flying mount, small group instance based game that doesn’t even have day/night cycle?


     


    ....a medieval style game with not even so much as a day/night cycle? Really?


     


    How many games does the Hero engine have to kill before people stop using it as a game engine? 

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon

    I don't know why they chose the hero engine, but all i can say is that there has not yet been a successful useage of it, at least one that could be used to positively advertise the thing, its a shame to write off a game while its still in development, but, it is what it is,  maybe they got the use of the hero engine at some bargain basement price or something.. can't think of any other reason to use it.image

  • busdriverbusdriver nyPosts: 859Member

    Originally posted by Darkcrystal

    HAHAHAHA, you think Hero engine is bad, really??? When is the last time you worked with it!! This made me LOL, you think because the graphics was dumbed down by bioware thats thats what every game looks like, well guess what get your facts right before you comment because you look plain stupid.

     

    SWTOR  did that on purpose because they wanted all there fans to be able to play there game something they said since day 1 of making the game, by the way I was an beta tester eariler on....  I been working with game engines for nealry 20 years and Hero engine is very good engine to work with , I find this to be funny!!

     

    Some people have no idea whta there saying, priceless..

     

     

    people love to bash the Unreal engine to but look 60% of the industry uses it, but thats a bad engine to people claim.. The issue is to many gamers claim certain engines are bad, because  some company use them poorly does not make it so, some companys have no idea how to use any engine properly...

     

    But some are very good at using the engine properly... So to say this is funny stuff... I have used Hero, I have used Unreal, and I like them both sure they have issues they all do, but SWTOR is not a example of what Hero can do , so get your facts straight and try making a game with each engine then come back, and talk, until then, go back under that hole you came out of it.

     



    You write like a 12 year old, I very much doubt you know anything about game engines or programming in general.

This discussion has been closed.