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Do you think [mod edit] SWTOR changed MMO gamers?

24

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  • CicceroCiccero Rossville, GAMember Posts: 131 Uncommon

    Just showed me that no game company is really in touch with the general audiance of Gamers.

  • pierthpierth San Antonio, TXMember Posts: 1,494 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ciccero

    Just showed me that no game company is really in touch with the general audiance of Gamers.

    The question is, is it really the dev companies or the publishers? I may be naive but I still want to believe that devs really want to make great games, but without their own money to make games they have to rely on publishers and investors who end up calling the shots.

  • SuperDonkSuperDonk Vancouver, WAMember Posts: 759 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ciccero

    Just showed me that no game company is really in touch with the general audiance of Gamers.

    Maybe I'm just an optimist, but there has to be at least one out there that does, right?

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORMember Posts: 1,277

    It could be a combination of things. I'm inclined to think its less about TOR's endeavors and more about the current state of the genre and its demographic(s).

    Devs are pulling every genre into the MMO realm with a twist or two:
    TOR and TSW are bringing srpg.
    GW2 and Wildstar are bringing action/adventure.
    Tera and Blade&Soul are bringing the 3D fighter.
    PS2 and many others are bringing the FPS.

    So when you look at what an Elder Scrolls game could bring to the MMO table, a lot of people naturally think sandbox.

    That does not appear to be the case. So we are seeing a lot of backlash.

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • StizzledStizzled Springfield, MOMember Posts: 1,545 Uncommon

    I would have to say that no, gamers have not changed in any way. Everyone, including MMORPG.com, hyped the shit out of ToR to the point that it could never live up to expectations. Anyone with half a brain could see the 'failure' coming. The lurkers of this and other sites have watched it happen time and time again. We watched it happen with ToR, with Rift, with DCUO, with Aion, with AoC, with Warhammer and we're all about to watch it happen again with GW2 and TSW. 

     

    If people had grown any smarter they wouldn't be hyping and praising GW2 like they are now. The only reason that TESO is getting so much backlash is because fans of TES are outraged that they're changing so many core mechanics. It has nothing to do with being more leery of new MMOs' and their developer's promises. Many of those same TES fans are lining up to give ArenaNet their money and praising a game that they've barely played.

  • zevni78zevni78 grimsbyMember Posts: 1,120 Uncommon

    Very well put OP.


     


    As to SWTOR "failing", as an rpg, as in its initial box sales and current player numbers it is a success, but I don’t see it sustaining numbers, or growing, ever again, except on the grounds of its IP. Purely as an mmo, it is a failure. Mmo players will gravitate towards the superior products that gain respect among players, such as GW2, and hopefully TSW, heck even FFXIV 2.0 has a better chance to win people over with innovation, once it’s out of it's development rut. We are seeing indie projects taking advantage of the new non-corporate publisher culture of kickster etc, and even Cryptic's Neverwinter come up with good ideas, it is only right that those behind the curve pay a price.


     


     

  • TokkenTokken Portland, ORMember Posts: 1,351 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Elikal


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern


    Fail? When did this happen?
     
    By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.

    I do not discuss the question if SWTOR is or is not a fail. I respect if someone disagrees, but at least here we can be pretty sure those who do see it as fail are the majority.

    Please stick to the topic. ;)

    Why the heck did you bring up FAIL then? SWTOR has not failed......... YET.

    Warriors are like steel, when you lose your temper you lose your worth.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember Posts: 6,598 Rare

    Originally posted by SuperDonk


    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    SWTOR hasn't failed yet.  There's still some hope for them.  A killer expansion with amazing space combat or converting to a GW2 B2P model are two possibilities.

    Swtor is going the way of AoC and WAR, nice launch day box sales, then a very steep sub decline within the first few months.

     

    Considering BW had the money, time, and IP and still released a sub-par game, I wouldn't get my hopes up that they will release an awesome expansion or even fix the problems they currently have.

     

    Swtor will go the way of WAR once EA starts crunching the numbers, maintenance only with bugs and other issues that  exsist for years.

    In case it isn't obvious or that you are somewhat new to mmorpgs, the history of mmorpg has shown most games have a good up front sales with a drop down to 30% retention.  Few games have broken that trend.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember Posts: 7,659 Epic


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Fail? When did this happen?
     
    By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.

    It failed to deliver what what promised in it.
    It failed an an MMORPG. It was markedted as such and it isn't.
    It failed to revolutionize the genre as was the claim on it.
    It failed to live up to the estimated projections.

    A game doesn't have to be a financial disaster to be a failure. It failed in many areas it was supposed to deliver. Probably, the only reason it's not a total failure was the initial boxed sales due to it's massive hype.....Times Square flash mobs anyone?

  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEMember Posts: 2,483 Common
    Oh damn I hadn't realized they shut down the SWTOR server already. What a quick failure.


    Oh wait. I'm being told they didn't do that. I'm also being told it's the second most popular mmo inthe western market still, almost six months after launch.

    Wait. I'm also being told that the game has MA a boatload of money already an will continue to bring in millions of dollars in revenue every month.


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  • Fed1Fed1 Roaburg, VAMember Posts: 167

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    Fail? When did this happen?

     

    By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.



     

    It failed an an MMORPG. It was markedted as such and it isn't.

     

    Just so I can get a point a reference on your opinion - Do you consider WoW a MMORPG?

    FYI many here complain that SWTOR is WoW in space.

  • Games888Games888 Chicago, ILMember Posts: 243

    just hope they dont try to copy swtor and make it single player pay to sub mmo. 

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairMember Posts: 7,659 Epic


    Originally posted by Fed1

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
     


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Fail? When did this happen?
     
    By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.

     
    It failed an an MMORPG. It was markedted as such and it isn't.
     


    Just so I can get a point a reference on your opinion - Do you consider WoW a MMORPG?
    FYI many here complain that SWTOR is WoW in space.

    Are we creating a sliding scale? What qualifies as an MMORPG?
    Here is my answer. I used to hate leveling in WOW because it was isolating. Back during the final days of TBC, my brother and I used to play WoW. We wanted to go into WOTLK with fresh toons. He wanted a War, and I wanted a Pally (I never actually switched to it when it went live, but meh, not important) Anyway, WE agreed to level the 2 as a pair. We had to choose the same race. If we both weren't online, we would not level, we would focus on skills and crafting if one was online when the other wasn't. I can't tell you how much of a pain this was. Frankly, it required far too much planning and coordination. We succeeded in reaching 70 before the expansion hit, but it really was difficult to stay paced with each other. SWTOR, would not have even been possible to do this.

    So...if we use that to define the game, you tell me.

  • Fed1Fed1 Roaburg, VAMember Posts: 167

    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by Fed1


    Just so I can get a point a reference on your opinion - Do you consider WoW a MMORPG?

    FYI many here complain that SWTOR is WoW in space.



     

    Are we creating a sliding scale? What qualifies as an MMORPG?

    Here is my answer. I used to hate leveling in WOW because it was isolating. Back during the final days of TBC, my brother and I used to play WoW. We wanted to go into WOTLK with fresh toons. He wanted a War, and I wanted a Pally (I never actually switched to it when it went live, but meh, not important) Anyway, WE agreed to level the 2 as a pair. We had to choose the same race. If we both weren't online, we would not level, we would focus on skills and crafting if one was online when the other wasn't. I can't tell you how much of a pain this was. Frankly, it required far too much planning and coordination. We succeeded in reaching 70 before the expansion hit, but it really was difficult to stay paced with each other. SWTOR, would not have even been possible to do this.

    So...if we use that to define the game, you tell me.

    Umm Yes you can do that in SWTOR - I am still looking to see if you consider WoW a MMO though. A simple yes or No and I would be able to put your original opinion in correct context.

     Thanks

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Amory, MSMember Posts: 2,551 Uncommon

    The reason SW:TOR isn't living up to expectations isn't really because it was modeled after WoW.  Anyone who had realistic expectations (the only expectations worth discussing) knew that SW:TOR was going to feel a lot like World of Warcraft.  For the first 49 levels of the game, you could tell it was a little rough around the edges, but the quest content was just as good if not better than WoW.  The storylines from even some of the side quests helped the game feel less like a grind and more like a traditional role playing game.

    The biggest issue is that at level 50, the story content stops and what you're left with has been done far better in other games.  Class balance is a mess, hardmode flashpoints are pointless, and the only method of progression at 50 is either grinding PvP matches or grinding enough dailies so you can get your mods and earrings to make you raid ready.

  • Gabby-airGabby-air surrey, BCMember Posts: 3,440 Uncommon

    I don't think at all that the cocensus about swtor on these forums is of it failing. Maybe it failed in regards to being "the" MMO people have been looking for but it was pretty obvious it was going to cater to the bigger demographic and in that it has found great success...much more than any other MMO launched in these past few years. 

    As for the main question at hand, I don't think it is at all SWTOR that changed people's mind that's absurd. It simply is the fact that the ESO is so different than what people would expect from it, a series that is crowned the best open world rpg suddenly decides to move away from core mechanics. 

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIMember Posts: 8,842 Rare

    It has made the community as a whole much more skeptical.

    kinda a fool me once shame on you. fool me twice shame on me kinda thing.

  • Crunchy221Crunchy221 Trollsberg, ILMember Posts: 489

    Its simple really.  If this is what a failure looks like...a boatload of preorder and launch box sales, then months of decline untill it reaches a natural and steady sub level...then were going to keep seeing failures i guess.

    Yeah im sure they wont spend so much on voice actors ect down the line.

    Not sure where the OP gets his info about most people considering it a failure.  I played 3 months, i dont consider it a failure.  I dont play and probably wont ever again.

    Do you guys consider consol games failures if they cant continually sell millions of compies over 7 years?

     

    I just think the failure talk is possibly the dumbest application of the word.  A game fails when it shuts down, i could consider a p2p failing if it goes f2p...but thats usually a misnomer since most just go to a really long trial then p2p for the whole game as a marketing strategy, and call it free.....yeah didnt you notice wow is apparently free now (lol)

    Also the claim that this forum usually doesn lable games failures is pretty wild, most games are fails on this site for some reason or another.

     

    But if your suggesting that people put their money where their mouth is and demand better games, then i would suggest that what is happening with mmorpgs, especially p2p games, is that we are voting "yes we like this" while raging how we hate it on 3rd party forums no one important reads.  Its like the teacher giving a student a B+ because they seel sorry for how stupid the kid is and knows hes going to fail at life...poor kids walking around like hes smart.....we keep over hyping game, preordering, realizing they are nothing special other than new, then complain while preordering the next game just like the last.

    We are the kid whos getting the B+....they got us by the balls and nothing going to change.

    Just look at some of the games who are actually doing things diffrent...diffrent combat. diffrent game rules....no hype no following struggling.  Doesnt take a genius to figure out how to make money, which is the goal of making these game.  Serve up a wow-park, overhype slight changes as revolutionary and groundbreaking...game changers...by the time everyone realizes youve made a lot of money...rinse and repeate.

  • rottNrottN OdenseMember Posts: 161

    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    The reason SW:TOR isn't living up to expectations isn't really because it was modeled after WoW.  Anyone who had realistic expectations (the only expectations worth discussing) knew that SW:TOR was going to feel a lot like World of Warcraft.  For the first 49 levels of the game, you could tell it was a little rough around the edges, but the quest content was just as good if not better than WoW.  The storylines from even some of the side quests helped the game feel less like a grind and more like a traditional role playing game.
    The biggest issue is that at level 50, the story content stops and what you're left with has been done far better in other games.  Class balance is a mess, hardmode flashpoints are pointless, and the only method of progression at 50 is either grinding PvP matches or grinding enough dailies so you can get your mods and earrings to make you raid ready.

    What other games ?

    Class balance is not a mess.. there are no OP classes. if YOU mean there are, please tell me what class(es) ?

    In what other games dont you grind pvp, flashpoints, dailys, crafting after max level to get raid ready/better gear?

  • OmaliOmali MMO Business Correspondent Orchard Park, NYMember Posts: 1,169 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Elikal


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern


    Fail? When did this happen?
     
    By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.

    I do not discuss the question if SWTOR is or is not a fail. I respect if someone disagrees, but at least here we can be pretty sure those who do see it as fail are the majority.

    Please stick to the topic. ;)

    Your entire point is made null and meaningless since The Old Republic didn't fail. Also you don't discuss the question because your question has no basis in reality, and is made up of hyperbole and vague references to a "majority" who don't exist. It's the old tactic of the unenlightened to throw out random untruths and then either change the subject or refuse to discuss them when called out on it.

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  • MetentsoMetentso BarcelonaMember Posts: 1,436 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Omali


    Originally posted by Elikal


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern


    Fail? When did this happen?
     
    By the way, go see The Avengers. Its awesome, and it might take your mind off of TOR for a while.

    I do not discuss the question if SWTOR is or is not a fail. I respect if someone disagrees, but at least here we can be pretty sure those who do see it as fail are the majority.

    Please stick to the topic. ;)

    Your entire point is made null and meaningless since The Old Republic didn't fail. Also you don't discuss the question because your question has no basis in reality, and is made up of hyperbole and vague references to a "majority" who don't exist. It's the old tactic of the unenlightened to throw out random untruths and then either change the subject or refuse to discuss them when called out on it.

     

    developers: SWTOR is going to change MMOS forever.
    community: SWTOR is going to be the next number 1 MMO.

    It failed completely in both fronts.
  • JakardJakard 98390, WAMember Posts: 415

    Failure is pretty subjective. Let me explain from my point of view.

    The Old Republic was never going to challenge WoW for the title of #1 MMO. The fact is, Star Wars has a limited appeal when you compare it to the "gneralized" fantasy genre that games like WoW and Guild Wars appeals to. Even if The Old Republic was the best MMO ever made, I don't tink it could get more than 4-5 millinos paid subscribers and that's being generous.

    I also wouldn't consider TOR to be a failure if what Bioware says is indeed true. If they are still holding at around 1.7 million subscribers, then that's a pretty impressive feat, in all honesty.Will TOR go free to play? I believe so. But to be fair, I also think it's a matter of time before every game goes towards some sort of F2P model. But I think to call a game that has over a million paid subscirbers for over five months... a faiure... is a pretty inaccurate statement.

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinMember Posts: 1,282 Uncommon

    Is SWTOR a failure?
    I dont know - if they get their money back and make some more it is no real failure.
    Its maybe a failure in longevity but that is any of the new crowd of games between 2005 and 2011.

    TESO will fail at the point that it does probably not deliver a TES experience in a MMO environment as far we know the facts and rumors about facts.
    I think they have made a game that may sell well but calls the wrong audience being marketed as TES MMO.
    Time will tell.

    MMO gamers have grown older since the release of WoW, have experienced much more disapointments, some have gone away from mmos, a minority writes down their disapointment in forums.

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  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisMember Posts: 1,066

    Nope,anyone with any sence and played the beta weekends could see what swtor was all about.Dont think that mmorpg.com is the mmo world,many away from this site are happy about TESO.

    Hell,even the TES forums have a pole with 70% still going to buy the game.

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinMember Posts: 1,282 Uncommon

    As TESO will be PC-only how much is the target crowd of TES fans...500k ?

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