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ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

    Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...)

    ...and they did license one, so what is the point you are trying to make?

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • ResertonReserton adsad, ARPosts: 52Member

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

     

     You must be kidding?

     

    Neocoron an MMORPG made about 10 years ago, by an unknown indie company, managed Elderscrolls type first person combat in an MMORPG without any problem. 

    No hotbar of skills simply run up to a mob and whack it with your sword or cast a fireball at it, and it worked beautifully in PVE and PVP.

    Why can a big company not manage it 10 years later?

    You are trying to say we do not have the technology to do it now when we had it 10 years ago?

    I was really excited for an Elderscroll MMORPG as I thought might finally have this type of combat in an mmorpg again, finally a game without a friggen hotbar!

     

    Neocron is one of my favourite MMORPGS I have ever played and the combat style was one of the best parts.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Considering this type of combat has already been none in MMO's repeatedly...I'm going to call shenanigans on this OP.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    It is completely possible.

     

    It's not. You run into the same balance issues of Ranged vs Melee, with aim combat, which cause even more balance issues, on top of the skill balance.

     

    There are obvious ways around that, especially in a game where shields and armor can actually mitigate a good amount of damage or all damage depending on what you have equipped.  

     

    Balance issues don't make things not possible, they just make them possible with additional restrictions.  

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  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member

    Originally posted by GTwander

    Originally posted by Gishgeron



    Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...)

    ...and they did license one, so what is the point you are trying to make?

     

       ......are you serious?  No, no....you can't be serious.  I can't accept that they chose to license an engine for this....this...garbage when there are a veritable SEA of incredible engines for FPS combat out there.  It defies logic.....and....and....

      Dude, you just proved the existance of Satan.  I just didn't realize he was controlling the MMO genre these days.

    image

  • caremuchlesscaremuchless Crestline, CAPosts: 603Member

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    if mortal online and darkfall can do it why can't TESO?

    The answer is, zenimax want to make the most amount of money possible with minimal amount of effort. thats software development 101 right there.

    You must of not read the post. I think darkfall combat is shit. 

    image

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

    Originally posted by Istavaan


    Originally posted by Gishgeron


    Originally posted by Istavaan


    Originally posted by Sykoleisa


    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    Not Possible?

     

    These are Computer Coders/Programmers. They create something out of nothing but 1's and 0's.

     

    When a Computer Programmer tells me "its not possible" to me they are just saying "Im not skilled enough to know how to do it." or "I dont want to put in the effort to make it possible.

     

    more often than not it'll be down to being viable or not.

     

    elder scrolls style gameplay in an mmo, not viable....

    way to stagnate the genre..of course it viable technically  its just not financially viable for zenimax.

     

      That style of combat, even in far inferior forms, has been financially viable for others.  If, by your comment, you mean that most players don't WANT that combat and wouldn't buy it......I don't know what to say.  They've been buying and playing the god awful combat TES has been infamous for all the years now.  Seriously....on what grounds is it not viable, financially or otherwise?



    financially not viable for zenimax because they want easy profit gain with low risk..spend less on the product so if it fails it wont hurt the company as bad, they would have to build their own engine to do fps combat..financially viable has nothing to do with players it has to do with the suits at zenimax...come on man.

     

      They have to build their own engine to do NON-FPS combat.  They can't even so much as use variables and math that they've worked on for years making their current combat and all the balancing that goes with it.  Either way they have to pay the same amount of people the same amount of money for basically the same amount of time to produce the game in either fashion.  If anything the non-fps combat is gonna take at least a tiny bit more money to make because now they have to balance all of their current skills and magic, which have been balanced for years around a FPS system, around this new system.

    Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...and the best of THOSE are for FPS combat...by the way), so the overhead isn't changing at all.



    where did i say they could just download wow style combat? all i said was doing fps combat would require either building their own engine or modifying an existing engine vastly to complement an online world. if they just buy the rights to an engine it will cost less therefore giving a better chance for a higher profit margain..an fps TESO will cost more than a tradition mmo TESO. The decision to go with a more standard mmo style combat is cheaper and less risky.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

    Originally posted by GTwander


    Originally posted by Gishgeron



    Are you seriously so ignorant of the way games are made that you think they can just download a WoW comabt system for free?  They gotta build ANYTHING they make from scratch, (unless they chose to go with a licensed engine...)

    ...and they did license one, so what is the point you are trying to make?

     

       ......are you serious?  No, no....you can't be serious.  I can't accept that they chose to license an engine for this....this...garbage when there are a veritable SEA of incredible engines for FPS combat out there.  It defies logic.....and....and....

      Dude, you just proved the existance of Satan.  I just didn't realize he was controlling the MMO genre these days.

    You are so bad at sarcasm (or so good at it... hmm) that I simply don't get what is going on here.

    But yeah, you should have known who really runs Barter Town these days.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

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  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    Originally posted by caremuchless

    Originally posted by Istavaan

    if mortal online and darkfall can do it why can't TESO?

    The answer is, zenimax want to make the most amount of money possible with minimal amount of effort. thats software development 101 right there.

    You must of not read the post. I think darkfall combat is shit. 

    i don't care what you think is shit thats your opinion my point was, if darkfall can make half assed fps combat what do you think zenimax could do with all the resources they have at their disposal..darkfall was made by an indie company on a shoe string budget.

  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member

    Originally posted by Istavaan



    where did i say they could just download wow style combat? all i said was doing fps combat would require either building their own engine or modifying an existing engine vastly to complement an online world. if they just buy the rights to an engine it will cost less therefore giving a better chance for a higher profit margain..an fps TESO will cost more than a tradition mmo TESO. The decision to go with a more standard mmo style combat is cheaper and less risky.

     

      You'll have to read some of the above posts.  I'm still reeling from the idea they chose to license at all.  Even then, choosing to license a system that isn't even complimentary to their own. 

      I will argue, with what sanity I have left, that it is NOT less risky.  Its incredibly risky.  The game isn't small time, TES is huge now..  Players already have an image of that game, and its combat, that isn't likely to enjoy this change.

    image

  • ResertonReserton adsad, ARPosts: 52Member

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

    Originally posted by Istavaan





    where did i say they could just download wow style combat? all i said was doing fps combat would require either building their own engine or modifying an existing engine vastly to complement an online world. if they just buy the rights to an engine it will cost less therefore giving a better chance for a higher profit margain..an fps TESO will cost more than a tradition mmo TESO. The decision to go with a more standard mmo style combat is cheaper and less risky.

     

      You'll have to read some of the above posts.  I'm still reeling from the idea they chose to license at all.  Even then, choosing to license a system that isn't even complimentary to their own. 

      I will argue, with what sanity I have left, that it is NOT less risky.  Its incredibly risky.  The game isn't small time, TES is huge now..  Players already have an image of that game, and its combat, that isn't likely to enjoy this change.

    I am very surprised you came on here to argue a point without even knowing this.. This is pretty much the main reason posts like this are all over the place and there is so much outrage, because of the fact they choose to license a terrible Wow-esque engine  and make the game into a WoW Clone.

  • caremuchlesscaremuchless Crestline, CAPosts: 603Member

    Originally posted by udon

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

    There are a number of games that have near real time syncing of combat.  Doing it well in a open world isn't impossible but it does present some challanges.  Personally I think Bethsada is probably one of the few companies that has the resources to tackle it but apperantly not the will.

    Elder Scrolls online without a huge open world and without fluid non tab targeting is going to feel odd.  I'm not gonig to bash the game yet until I learn more about it but it still feels like a odd design choice for the developers.  

    Its not so much that its not possible....is it possible to make it and it actually be fun?

     To be better than darkfall or mortal online?

    image

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by Gishgeron

      I will argue, with what sanity I have left, that it is NOT less risky.  Its incredibly risky. 

    The irony is that suits can't see the dangers of being THAT similar to an existing game (SW:ToR).

    I would have never given these cretins the credentials needed to even find employ as a business major.

     

    What all of this tells me is that selling 1+ million box sales is worth more than a game that garners respect and has a healthy life expectancy. There is a serious 'dance' going on in the MMO world these days; where publishers just want to milk them for all they are worth early on, then continue to gain a trickle-revenue long after the game has all but died and gone to a skeleton crew.

    This is why indies are the best out there; they HAVE to be. The one game they work on IS their lifeline.

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  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member

    Originally posted by Reserton

    Originally posted by Gishgeron


    Originally posted by Istavaan





    where did i say they could just download wow style combat? all i said was doing fps combat would require either building their own engine or modifying an existing engine vastly to complement an online world. if they just buy the rights to an engine it will cost less therefore giving a better chance for a higher profit margain..an fps TESO will cost more than a tradition mmo TESO. The decision to go with a more standard mmo style combat is cheaper and less risky.

     

      You'll have to read some of the above posts.  I'm still reeling from the idea they chose to license at all.  Even then, choosing to license a system that isn't even complimentary to their own. 

      I will argue, with what sanity I have left, that it is NOT less risky.  Its incredibly risky.  The game isn't small time, TES is huge now..  Players already have an image of that game, and its combat, that isn't likely to enjoy this change.

    I am very surprised you came on here to argue a point without even knowing this.. This is pretty much the main reason posts like this are all over the place and there is so much outrage, because of the fact they choose to license a terrible Wow-esque engine  and make the game into a WoW Clone.



      Moment of honesty?  I refuse to look into the game at all.  Barring that, I would never, not in a million years, assume a company with the financial backing that Bethesda has would even consider just "borrowing" a game engine when they clrearly need a new one.  I had just assumed they were building an engine for traditional MMO mechanics on the grounds that every MMO does.

      I expect this kind of thing from low budget guys...but the big boys?  Dude, you have the money, just flippin do what you know needs to be done.

    image

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    The key though is making a game not creating or advancing technology. Sure FPS combat could be done, it's in Darkfall, but many would argue (myself included) part of what makes Darkfall feel third rate is it's combat and how it doesn't feel fluid. Same with Fallen Earth, or countless other titles that have used it in a massively scaled game.

    Creating and advancing technology, is fine and all, but there's no telling how long and how much it would cost a dev team to do it and get it "right".

     

    I felt games like Phantasy Star Online did it pretty well.. and while Fallen Earth was a little clunky, it, in my opinion, was much better than Darkfall.  

     

    TERA has a decent system,  even Tabula Rasa was a step in the right direction.  FPS and TPS style MMOs seem to have the right idea.... Firefall, for one,  has a pretty fluid system.. the controls seem a little TOO tight,  but it feels good to me.

     

    Keep in mind, we're talking companies that have half the resources as Zenimax here.  This is, in every way, the problem.

     

    The resources are so great, that the costs undoubtedly are great,  in such a manner that instead of going with a "gamble" they want to go with a sure thing,  thats why this is, what it is.  Its disappointing, but when it came to the online game,  I feel they lost their way.

    I actually think it's less about going with a sure thing, and more about spending all available time on making the entirety of the game. Rather than conceptualizing and reiterating one feature. I'm not really going to go into the area of resources, as who knows what budget and time they are given on the title outside of the development team and their handlers?

    As far as MMO combat systems go, there are few examples of well done combat across the board, be it FPS, hybrid or turn-based. Many seem to forget or just outright ignore that many cases of active combat is really all some of these titles they're talking about have to offer. The reality tends to usually be medicore whole, with a gimmick like a "new combat system". I wonder why that is?

     

     

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  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by maskedweasel


    The key though is making a game not creating or advancing technology. Sure FPS combat could be done, it's in Darkfall, but many would argue (myself included) part of what makes Darkfall feel third rate is it's combat and how it doesn't feel fluid. Same with Fallen Earth, or countless other titles that have used it in a massively scaled game.

    Creating and advancing technology, is fine and all, but there's no telling how long and how much it would cost a dev team to do it and get it "right".

     

    I felt games like Phantasy Star Online did it pretty well.. and while Fallen Earth was a little clunky, it, in my opinion, was much better than Darkfall.  

     

    TERA has a decent system,  even Tabula Rasa was a step in the right direction.  FPS and TPS style MMOs seem to have the right idea.... Firefall, for one,  has a pretty fluid system.. the controls seem a little TOO tight,  but it feels good to me.

     

    Keep in mind, we're talking companies that have half the resources as Zenimax here.  This is, in every way, the problem.

     

    The resources are so great, that the costs undoubtedly are great,  in such a manner that instead of going with a "gamble" they want to go with a sure thing,  thats why this is, what it is.  Its disappointing, but when it came to the online game,  I feel they lost their way.

    I actually think it's less about going with a sure thing, and more about spending all available time on making the entirety of the game. Rather than conceptualizing and reiterating one feature. I'm not really going to go into the area of resources, as who knows what budget and time they are given on the title outside of the development team and their handlers?

    As far as MMO combat systems go, there are few examples of well done combat across the board, be it FPS, hybrid or turn-based. Many seem to forget or just outright ignore that many cases of active combat is really all some of these titles they're talking about have to offer. The reality tends to usually be medicore whole, with a gimmick like a "new combat system". I wonder why that is?

     

     

    it's not a new combat system it's an elder scrolls combat system, something they have been refining for years. They are going with standard mmo combat because they want to appeal to the masses and make lots of money.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by maskedweasel


     

    I actually think it's less about going with a sure thing, and more about spending all available time on making the entirety of the game. Rather than conceptualizing and reiterating one feature. I'm not really going to go into the area of resources, as who knows what budget and time they are given on the title outside of the development team and their handlers?

    As far as MMO combat systems go, there are few examples of well done combat across the board, be it FPS, hybrid or turn-based. Many seem to forget or just outright ignore that many cases of active combat is really all some of these titles they're talking about have to offer. The reality tends to usually be medicore whole, with a gimmick like a "new combat system". I wonder why that is?

     

     

     

    I think in some cases you're right,  but I think its due to the mindset of the player today.  If they come from WoW, they are looking for everything WoW had, plus some.  Its a tough anomaly to recreate in any aspect.  If they do a little with a new combat system,  its not enough.  If they don't have millions of others playing,  its not worth playing at all.

     

    I think with games like TERA they tout the combat system a little too much, where, in my opinion, DCUO had an amazing combat system in the bag,  with a lot of interesting story lines, and some great voice work... but I think they are shooting for the moon too often here and aren't okay with just landing in the stars.  

     

    I'm mostly positive about upcoming MMOs... and I'm not saying TESO is going to be a bad game at all,  its just disappointing because it isn't what people think of when thinking of TES.

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  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,462Member Uncommon

    Why wouldn't it work,there has ONLY been one mmorpg ever made around not soloing.Single player game=soloing so it is actually of the norm not something wild and crazy.

    Even combat is about soloing your weapon skills and healing yourself,so yes it most definitely would work based on  the demographic of current mmorpg gamers.


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  • deathshrouddeathshroud londonPosts: 1,366Member

    Originally posted by caremuchless

     I'll make this short.

     

     I love the elder scroll series, but they are single player RPG's.

     Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

     

     Personally, I believe that if the devs were copying Elder scrolls combat into a futuristic fullbody sim, it could work. 

     But that tech isnt widely available in the market yet and what we have to work with (keyboard and mouse) cant do the combat justice without making it look like CounterStrike knife fighting (which is what I think DFO combat looks like)

     

    So while Iam not defending the choices the devs made,

     I find it hard to believe what most of you want in combat is possible.

     

     

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01p4M-SKB_g

     

    not possible eh?? and MO's melee system is way more advanced than skyrims

    there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  • tatbountytatbounty ocean county, NJPosts: 14Member

    guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

    i don't know jack..but i know his sister :)

  • deathshrouddeathshroud londonPosts: 1,366Member

    Originally posted by tatbounty

    guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

     well elder scrolls has been typically fps and tpv, but this game should of been for TES fans, so if you havent palyed TES or you dont like TES this game shouldnt of been aimed at you in the first palce.

    there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member

    Originally posted by tatbounty

    guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

    In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

    image
  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by tatbounty

    guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

    So what's your stance on traditional TES games? They were originally FPS, you know...

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

     

    I think in some cases you're right,  but I think its due to the mindset of the player today.  If they come from WoW, they are looking for everything WoW had, plus some.

    Pretty much this.

  • greyed-outgreyed-out buttercupsville, OKPosts: 99Member

    Originally posted by AdamTM

    Originally posted by tatbounty

    guess i'm in the minority on this thread..but i can't stand ANY fps games..i wouldn't want em to go fps

    In TES you have the choice to either FP or TP, what would have been the problem of adding both to TESO?

    Due to the situational awareness advantages of Third Person, in any multiplayer or competitive environment would just about force you to use it, so the game would be very difficult to balance between the two.  Other devs have spoken about this before; in reality it would come down to just using one or the other.

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