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Raiding Theology, Evidences of the existences and attributes of the raider.

2

Comments

  • SykoleisaSykoleisa BirghtonPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by Fozzik

     




    Originally posted by Sykoleisa





    Originally posted by Meleagar






    Originally posted by Sykoleisa



    Hi-five's to those who get the title.

    I couldn't think of a title that wouldn't make me sound like a hater so I went with something silly.

     

    Anyway, I understand that GW2 is not about end-game progression, and as such "instanced progression raiding" ,such as WoW and RIFT raiding is not going to happen,and I support that.

     

    However, I do not see any reason that we cannot have a few instances designed around a large group of people, such as a guild, where they can all be in the same area fighting a few bosses, without random players coming along for the ride(like they can in Dynamic Events).

     

    Any ideas?






    Yeah. I hear they have those in just about every. other. MMO. in. the. world.  Go play one of them.





    invalid point.

    because GW2 has it's own play style.

    If you say playstyle doesn't matter then I hear there's pvp in the majority of other games in the world, not limited to MMO's.

     

    your move you close minded *****.




     

    So it's your contention that every game in existence should cater to you? GW2 has a unique play style, and you should be able to experience it with content specifically designed for your needs and desires, regardless of what it does to or for anyone else. Interesting.

    Getting worked up and calling people names doesn't help you get taken seriously.

     

    I tried being taken seriously, hence the originalpost  trying to avoid a title that was aggresive (I.E WE NEED RAIDING CONTENT ARGH!) as well as trying to make a point that it doesn't have to be a treadmill.

    Now, what you have just done if created a fallacy, in that, from my experience, the overwhelming majority of PvE games have had PvPers that say they need to care and attention, asking for what is actually more than what I was asking for.

    I'm just dropping the subject now, It's futile to suggest MORE to a community that seemingly thinks this game is already perfect.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by tazarconan

    Originally posted by Fozzik

    This discussion has been replayed about 45 times on these boards, and even more on other GW2 forums.



    GW2 does have end-game progression. It's just not a vertical gear treadmill based on repetitive raid farming. There are other types of progression. I know, hard to fathom, but it's true.

    How about random created dungeons with random created bosses for raiding? That would eliminate the Repetitive boring raid farming term. Dont u think?

    Random abilities to bosses is not a bad idea at all, but why limit that to raiding? 

    Random created dungeons on the other hand tends to be somewhat... random. Daggerfall was probably the game who had most random 3d dungeons ever and while some of them were fine others were hopeless. It would take a lot of hard work to make a good random dungeon system that actually would make dungeons of good enough quality. 

    You could do as you say even if it is very hard, but GW2 is not really tha game that would need this stuff. A game like Rift on the other hand, or basically most themeparks would need this a lot more. But as I said, making a good random raid is really hard.

    There are other possible endgames in a MMO than raiding.

  • FozzikFozzik Arnold, MDPosts: 538Member


    Originally posted by Sykoleisa

     
    I tried being taken seriously, hence the originalpost  trying to avoid a title that was aggresive (I.E WE NEED RAIDING CONTENT ARGH!) as well as trying to make a point that it doesn't have to be a treadmill.
    Now, what you have just done if created a fallacy, in that, from my experience, the overwhelming majority of PvE games have had PvPers that say they need to care and attention, asking for what is actually more than what I was asking for.
    I'm just dropping the subject now, It's futile to suggest MORE to a community that seemingly thinks this game is already perfect.

    I'm not sure how PvP got involved in things, we weren't talking about PvP at all...are you assuming I'm a PvP player? I'm actually a 100% PvE person. You don't seem to be addressing the point we're making at all about large-group instanced content having too large a barrier to entry.

    Just to humor you...you do realize that dramatically more people take part in PvP than take part in large-scale raiding? Add to that the fact that the only reason the numbers of people who raid is so high in "traditional" MMORPGs is because that's the only thing to do at max level...raid or quit. With alternative options available like there are in GW2, much fewer people would be interested in raiding anyway. So, catering to PvP players makes much more sense...there are a LOT more of them.

    Probably good to quit while you're ahead...or at least not too far behind as of yet.

  • BorlucBorluc Greenwood, INPosts: 147Member

    Originally posted by Sykoleisa

     

     

    I tried being taken seriously, hence the originalpost  trying to avoid a title that was aggresive (I.E WE NEED RAIDING CONTENT ARGH!) as well as trying to make a point that it doesn't have to be a treadmill.

    Now, what you have just done if created a fallacy, in that, from my experience, the overwhelming majority of PvE games have had PvPers that say they need to care and attention, asking for what is actually more than what I was asking for.

    I'm just dropping the subject now, It's futile to suggest MORE to a community that seemingly thinks this game is already perfect.

    Actually it is your close-mindedness that is the problem.  Let me use a saying that pve people have used for years when describing content that it outside the scope of the game design: "If you take resources from developing the game as it is supposed to be, you do not have as much energy going into the important aspects that the game revolves around." 

    How does it feel?  I used to be on your side of the road, and I didn't like it either.   However, now I'm able to say that I LIKE the direction GWII has taken and I don't want them wasting time focusing on a feature that the game just isn't about.  There are many games that cater to your play style, so I'd suggest that you work on your charisma (hard for you) and convince your buddies to play one of those games instead. 

    Your comment about pvp players not understanding community is just ridiculous.  The strongest and most tightly bound groups I've ever seen have been in games with pvp.  Sure they might not be nice to your group, but they do understand the value of each other, which is something that big raiding guilds know nothing about past who fills a random slot for X raid.

    You aren't being taken seriously because you're basically sulking about the entire design of the game; claiming that taking valuable resources away from that design so that the devs can actively undermine the community they are trying to foster doesn't hurt anything.  You are right.   Best to give it up now and when you play GW II keep an open mind.  People who think that mmos can never change their stripes are about to be shocked.

     

  • Mike-McQueenMike-McQueen Enfield, CTPosts: 243Member
    How about this: FUCK INSTANCING.

    I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.

  • FozzikFozzik Arnold, MDPosts: 538Member


    Originally posted by Jaeriyoz
    How about this:

    image

  • BorlucBorluc Greenwood, INPosts: 147Member

    Originally posted by Jaeriyoz

    How about this: **** **********.

    See what years of playing raiding games that cater to a very small percent of the total playerbase has done to this poor boy?

  • ButregenyoButregenyo IstanbulPosts: 483Member

    Iconic baddies in Tyria like Elder Dragons are far more superior,  compared to the scale of heroes' powers (chracters we play). With this i think world event style fight fits more to the lore.

    24 iconic heroes beat Kralkatorrik doesnt go well with its lore.

    Armies of all races united to defeat Kralkatorrik sounds a lot better.

    -----

        Also, having a raid support means there will be a gear checked dungeon sequence: get T1 -> get T2 -> etc. which is a common method to sustain subscribers. GW2 do not need this.

       I think for your taste there are open world mini dungeons, (right now i only know of one, dont know the real detail about them) which you can go in with as many friends as you like and have cool puzzles, riddles, items (the one we've been to had a cool greatsword, flamethrower and a trident which any class could use and most needed to solve the puzzles) and decent boss fights with awesome underwater content.

  • SykoleisaSykoleisa BirghtonPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by Borluc

    You aren't being taken seriously because you're basically sulking about the entire design of the game;

     

     

    No I'm not,

     

    If you'll recall, this whole thing started with why exactly it's not possible for there to be a tiny amount of content for people who want to play with friends, but not with random strangers. that's one thing, that has very little to do with the actual design of the game, so saying I'm sulking about the entire design of the game is fallacy.

     

    I don't need to convince my friends to play some other game, I already know the majority of their answers: "do you really think there's a decent game coming soon that isn't GW2, because we've already decided that everything else that's out is not to our tastes?"

    I would like to take this last of my moments in this thread to apologise. I had been given a reasonable answer in the first page, however I had not seen it until after I repled to Fozzik, which only continued a debate that eventually turned into flaming.

  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member

    What I would like to see are dungeons, very akin to the final dungeon from Final Fantasy VI.

    A dungeon made for 15 people are 3 groups.  Whereas it's one large dungeon, the dungeon mechanics force players to split up from the very beginning. There's no "auto dividing" it's puzzles and events are just something you have to figure out while in there.  

    Things in one part of the dungeon effect other parts of the dungeon.  At the end, one massive boss on the scale of the dynamic event bosses.  

    This would be "GW 2's "answer for raiding and would be something that you couldn't just join, but that your guild has to schedule (just because of how special an instance it is). What this does is halt or limits the repeat behavior and really gears up the idea that this is a serious grind.  It also gives a strong reason for players to be in more than one guild, if they want to beat it.  

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member

     






    Originally posted by Sykoleisa

    Hi-five's to those who get the title.

    I couldn't think of a title that wouldn't make me sound like a hater so I went with something silly.

     

    Anyway, I understand that GW2 is not about end-game progression, and as such "instanced progression raiding" ,such as WoW and RIFT raiding is not going to happen,and I support that.

     

    However, I do not see any reason that we cannot have a few instances designed around a large group of people, such as a guild, where they can all be in the same area fighting a few bosses, without random players coming along for the ride(like they can in Dynamic Events).

     

    Any ideas?



     

    I think developer could do anything if they felt the need and had some idea to back them up. I personally could very easily imagine a kind of WvW conquest mmo against the machine,where solo, small group, guild and alliance alike would find their share in a pve setting. Player against mob faction or allied to them isn't a new idea, it never really flourished, but you know how much of those idea never saw the light after all? This is naturally if you can go beyond the Lineage2 world boss, WOW raid kind of pve, after all before 2k guilds used to go in dungeons to make their events and fight the boss in the last room, just like you did in arcade games. Rts solo games also have a similar setting after all. I don't know if its the idea RG had when he did Tabula rasa, seam like it was even if i didn't played that game then.

  • FozzikFozzik Arnold, MDPosts: 538Member


    Originally posted by SykoleisaI don't need to convince my friends to play some other game, I already know the majority of their answers: "do you really think there's a decent game coming soon that isn't GW2, because we've already decided that everything else that's out is not to our tastes?"

    Translated: "Just about every game released in the genre in the last 8 years has been created to cater to us, but we don't like any of those. We want to play this one game that isn't meant to cater to us, and we want them to change it so it does."

    Yeah, entirely reasonable. *sarcasm*



    I would like to take this last of my moments in this thread to apologise. I had been given a reasonable answer in the first page, however I had not seen it until after I repled to Fozzik, which only continued a debate that eventually turned into flaming.

    My responses to you were entirely reasonable. They just weren't answers you liked or could refute. Sorry about that.



    ...so saying I'm sulking about the entire design of the game is fallacy.

    You keep saying that. I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • UnlightUnlight Ottawa, ONPosts: 2,540Member

    Originally posted by Sykoleisa

    Originally posted by TheTrueKing


    Originally posted by Sykoleisa



     

    However, I do not see any reason that we cannot have a few instances designed around a large group of people, such as a guild, where they can all be in the same area fighting a few bosses, without random players coming along for the ride(like they can in Dynamic Events).

    Aside the fact that if it requires a huge group then once again we fall back into the old Big Raid dungeons that only a small percentage of people get to see to the end.

     

    So Anet took those big raid dungeons / bosses and put them into the world.  Now think of this:

    Your guild leader calls to arms all those in your ranks to grab their weapons and prepare for battle against a Shadow Behemoth!! (just an example)  In an orginized fashion he orders attacks and formations as you battle this giant creature.

     

    onlookers standing around realize they can help too by rezzing downed allies and throwing a few shots at the boss.

     

    Do you know what kind of epic story gets built when people who are solo, without a guild get to see a well trained guild in action take down a big boss.  You'll read things like "And I was there when this guild slain that beast, I even help!"  The pride a community can bring to each other by just the encouragement this game gives us to work together and not leave anyone out.  Even the little guy, casual player gets to not be left out of the good stuff and who knows it might make him want to learn to be a better player and strive to join your ranks.

     

    I'm all for community building and helping others enjoy their experience more then they might think possible.

     

    Raid bosses ;) why not let the little guy watch your guild OWN that big nasty?  Tyria has Raid style bosses as you indicated you already know best part is nobody can grief you for the boss, KS you or ninja the loot.

     

    You see, this is the kind of ideas I was looking for, thank you.

    But just one point, If these instance dungeons do not reward anything that would make them worth doing for people who don't like raiding (such the "best" gear, or guild PvP bonuses) the you are only doing this instance for the fun of it, and as such does only a few people seeing it matter?

    I'm not asking for instanced raiding to be a focus of a clearly PvP oriented game, that's just not possible.

    In my head I was orignal thinking of rewards being of large quantities of influence for you guild, but this wouldn't work due to being able to spend influence on PvP rewards (IIRC), however I do not see the harm in, say, a bonus damage vs. X-monster type, For example killing a giant dragon would reward with bonus damage vs. dragon type creatures.

    That's kind of the point of the way the game is designed.  They don't WANT to cater to raiders.  Many other games exist that do that and do a fine job of it.  The point of Guild Wars 2 is to cater to another crowd entirely.  Many of us see the lack of raid style content as a selling point of the game and we would find the appeal diminshed if it were included in any form.

    People like to say (often snidely) that GW2 is trying to cater to everyone.  Well they aren't.  Devoted raiders are one of these groups.  It's not a technical matter either.  I'm sure they could implement a raid-style system if they wanted.  It's a matter of developing a design philosphy and sticking to it.  Some will find that the game lacks certain things that they are after, but GW2 isn't a one-stop shop for all your gaming needs.  It will never be a sandbox, it will never have OWFFA PvP and it won't have raid content.  Many of us, probably most of us, want a game that does EXACTLY that. 

    And really, since ArenaNet's ideas have proven to be exceedingly popular, what incentive do they have to change the formula now?  Why risk alienating a huge group of fans (and many paying customers) to entice a small group?

  • FozzikFozzik Arnold, MDPosts: 538Member

    Here's another reasonable answer to the apparent dilemma...

    GW2 doesn't have a sub fee, so you can easily play it alongside another AAA MMORPG. When you want exclusive instanced content for you and your raid guild...play WoW, Rift, SW:TOR, or any number of other games. When you want to play GW2, play GW2.

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,171Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Fozzik

    This discussion has been replayed about 45 times on these boards, and even more on other GW2 forums.



    GW2 does have end-game progression. It's just not a vertical gear treadmill based on repetitive raid farming. There are other types of progression. I know, hard to fathom, but it's true.



    Progression centers around content (there will still be TONS of content you haven't done when you reach max level), and is horizontal in terms of character advancement. It's about exploration, completionism, and customization. There will always be more things to collect, more ways to refine your play style through gear, traits, and skills, and more new things to see, rather than doing the same content over and over. By the time people complete the entire world and gain every achievement and title, I'm sure ArenaNet will have added additional events. If not, the high-level events in the open world should offer a lot of replayability, plus all the personal story possibilities with alts.



    The reason they won't have instances for large groups is because they don't need them. Period. The whole idea of these highly exclusive cliques of players that raid together militaristically every night grew out of that endgame treadmill design. Without the treadmill, that culture is no longer needed, and an entirely different one will develop. It will be about server community, and about playing with friends and taking part in all the content in the game (because it's ALL available at max level). The traditional MMORPG "raiding guild" won't need to exist in GW2, and will likely go the way of the dinosaurs as more and more players discover they no longer have to endure that crap.



    If the militaristic guild and the vertical gear treadmill is the ONLY reason you play these games, GW2 isn't for you. There are any number of games available for your play style.

    There's an area called Fort Mariner in Lions Arch, there is some dungeon gear there. If you had the oppurtunity to do explorable mode of Ascalon Catacombs you would realize how many runs it would take to get a full set of gear and runes for that gear.

    P.S. It's a whole lot of runs.

     

    So lets say you do the 30 or 40 runs that it requires for you to get all that gear, well good job you probably out leveled the gear anyways.

    So in short, currently there is grind from what we know from last beta, and hopefully there won't be in the future.

    Also something to note, the gear that would get from AC would be better than anything else you could obtain, unless you were extremely lucky to get a rare item as a drop.

     

    To be honest the fact the game was the way it was, really doesn't mean anything considering the difference between the previous "press" beta's and this last beta. You never really know what you'll be playing a month from now, we could have Sylvari and Asuran, or we could be playing Super Mario Online.

  • SykoleisaSykoleisa BirghtonPosts: 41Member

    Originally posted by Fozzik

     




    Originally posted by Sykoleisa

     

    I don't need to convince my friends to play some other game, I already know the majority of their answers: "do you really think there's a decent game coming soon that isn't GW2, because we've already decided that everything else that's out is not to our tastes?"



     

    Translated: "Just about every game released in the genre in the last 8 years has been created to cater to us, but we don't like any of those. We want to play this one game that isn't meant to cater to us, and we want them to change it so it does."

    Yeah, entirely reasonable. *sarcasm*

    No, because they're not too fussed.

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Boston, MAPosts: 991Member

    There's a part of me that would like to see raids added. But that's becaus I spent years doing raids and being trained to believe that the game only really begins when you hit max level.

    I realize it's not the same thing, but in a guild, I don't see any reason why someone wouldnt say "Hey the dragon event is up in..." and members of the guild could flock to it and coordinate their efforts on vent. When all the content is revealed, I imagine there will be a significant number of zone bosses. Most of us scratched only 5% of the surface in the BWE. And the content will always be available due to downleveling. On top of this, the gear that drops from these guys will be level appropriate for you, and scaling will mean that when your guild shows up, the boss will get additional health and/or powers to keep it challenging.

    Having said that, for people looking for a truly tiered, instanced, end-game raiding system, GW2 is not it.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    In my opinion raids are the worst thing for an mmorpg community it creates elitest guilds who expect you to play the game like a second job or else you're out. The minute a raid for guild wars 2 is announced is the last minute i will spend in the game.

  • IstavaanIstavaan CorkPosts: 1,350Member

    Originally posted by Auxiliary

    If you mean something like the original WoW worldbosses. I would love that myself, but even in those fights random people could join the fight and ruin it. Generally they were prevented from doing this by common sense and the fact that the people in the killing raidgroup would be the ones getting all the loot.

    that goes against guild wars 2 design philosophy..its supposed to be about people working together and helping one another, not being tied to one massive selfish elitest guild who shun others because their  gear score is not over 9000.

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    I dislike the way raids are set up in most MMOs. They do nothing but alienate a large chunk of the community by excluding them from the content. You have a small minority that does the raids and the majority is looking on from the sidelines because they either don't have the time, the will or the guild required to experience this content.

    This is why I like GW2's approach with world bosses. It's still good large group content for raid group but now, everyone can join, have a good time and be rewarded.

    image

  • ClassicstarClassicstar rotjeknorPosts: 2,690Member


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by Auxiliary
    If you mean something like the original WoW worldbosses. I would love that myself, but even in those fights random people could join the fight and ruin it. Generally they were prevented from doing this by common sense and the fact that the people in the killing raidgroup would be the ones getting all the loot.
    Those world bosses will be there, they will be part of the major Dynamic events.


    Even more then WoW lol i realy don't understand what OP have missed but dynamic events will be with huge bosses and large groups.

    And we cannot start whining about no end game if we have not even played trough first 30 lvls properly.

    Plenty to do to end game ist just not gear treadmill like WoW get use to it OP.

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  • SykoleisaSykoleisa BirghtonPosts: 41Member

    Right ok, whatever man *read in a passive as opposed to an aggressive (?) one*

    Doesn't make much of a difference either way, I'll still play it.

     

    Also, is anyone else getting a wierd change in the amount of posts in threads or is it just me?

  • AvatarBladeAvatarBlade BucurestiPosts: 770Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    Originally posted by Fozzik

    This discussion has been replayed about 45 times on these boards, and even more on other GW2 forums.



    GW2 does have end-game progression. It's just not a vertical gear treadmill based on repetitive raid farming. There are other types of progression. I know, hard to fathom, but it's true.



    Progression centers around content (there will still be TONS of content you haven't done when you reach max level), and is horizontal in terms of character advancement. It's about exploration, completionism, and customization. There will always be more things to collect, more ways to refine your play style through gear, traits, and skills, and more new things to see, rather than doing the same content over and over. By the time people complete the entire world and gain every achievement and title, I'm sure ArenaNet will have added additional events. If not, the high-level events in the open world should offer a lot of replayability, plus all the personal story possibilities with alts.



    The reason they won't have instances for large groups is because they don't need them. Period. The whole idea of these highly exclusive cliques of players that raid together militaristically every night grew out of that endgame treadmill design. Without the treadmill, that culture is no longer needed, and an entirely different one will develop. It will be about server community, and about playing with friends and taking part in all the content in the game (because it's ALL available at max level). The traditional MMORPG "raiding guild" won't need to exist in GW2, and will likely go the way of the dinosaurs as more and more players discover they no longer have to endure that crap.



    If the militaristic guild and the vertical gear treadmill is the ONLY reason you play these games, GW2 isn't for you. There are any number of games available for your play style.

    There's an area called Fort Mariner in Lions Arch, there is some dungeon gear there. If you had the oppurtunity to do explorable mode of Ascalon Catacombs you would realize how many runs it would take to get a full set of gear and runes for that gear.

    P.S. It's a whole lot of runs.

     

    So lets say you do the 30 or 40 runs that it requires for you to get all that gear, well good job you probably out leveled the gear anyways.

    So in short, currently there is grind from what we know from last beta, and hopefully there won't be in the future.

    Also something to note, the gear that would get from AC would be better than anything else you could obtain, unless you were extremely lucky to get a rare item as a drop.

     

    To be honest the fact the game was the way it was, really doesn't mean anything considering the difference between the previous "press" beta's and this last beta. You never really know what you'll be playing a month from now, we could have Sylvari and Asuran, or we could be playing Super Mario Online.

    Ye, from what I understand, there is a bit of a gear grind regarding the explorable mode gear. It seems you get like 5 tokesn/run and you need like 100 for each piece, and they are all different tokens, so you are tied to a certain explorable for a certain set.

    As for it being outleveld by the time you get it, except the lvl 80 explorabe one, you would get it to transmute the looks, not for the actual stats.

  • FozzikFozzik Arnold, MDPosts: 538Member

    There may be a little optional gear grind (although it's not much of a grind, since there's at least four different paths within each dungeon), but it's definitely not required. It gets you cosmetically distinct gear for that dungeon. The stats will be on the same plateau as gear you can get from crafting, karma, and other methods (boss drops?). There won't be a ladder of ever-increasing stats that you MUST grind to get in order to continue playing.

    This is quite different from the gear grind in other games, where there's really only one path...you have to get each tier in order to take on the mobs in the next tier, etc. I think it's kind of a stretch to say "GW2 has a gear grind"...it's just too different from other "traditional" MMORPGs. The power plateau means that you can get gear from many different types of content, and it's easy to get the best stats in the game. After that, it's all about just doing the content you want, and getting the looks you want.

  • CursedseiCursedsei Clarkston, MIPosts: 1,012Member

    Sorry OP, but there isn't going to be some big instanced "raid" dungeon available.

    The closest Guild Wars ever had to raiding numbes was ONE mission, one mission in factions where two teams of 8 converged together within a mission and continued on. Even then, the other group (barring empty channels) was random with either all players, players + NPCs, or all NPCs.

    When it comes down to "elite" content, such as Underworld, Domain of Anguish, or any of the heroic mode dungeons in Eye of the North, the maximum number of players needed was 8. 8 players, or players + heroes if they wanted to try it. It's always been about making the content not require a large number of people PLUS time investment.

     

    It just doesn't fit along the lines of their design philosophy. I've done large-number raids before, and while it might be fun to get the guild together and do it as a big group, its also a pain in the ass to get the actual numbers. Its why they dropped 40-man raids for Burning Crusade, and dropped the "25-man only" raids in Lich King. It ISN'T fun to stand around, thumbs twiddling, waiting for people to show up. And while this game doesn't have the issue of "OMG MAIN TANK AINT ON, WE AINT GONNA DO IT!", there's still the numerical limit. You also didn't exactly specify the kind of numbers you were looking for, which makes it hard to really say anything about it.

    If you are expecting 40+ man raids, good luck on that buddy.

    If you are expecting 25-man, while easily a more manageable number than 40+, its still a pain to get even with a full guild because of time requirements.

    10 would actually probably work pretty well though, and is most possible (10 is really close to 8 as well). Of course, that's just two dungeon groups put together so it isn't nearly as much as the other two options.

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