I just want to explore the massive world that this game is going to have. The class system doesnt bother me..In the end it all turns out the same with copy and paste builds and a skill system without a skill cap just leads to tank mages and master of all unblanaced igorance.
I want to know more about the crafting in particular though.
I dont know any TES game that is a sandbox. You cant physically manipulate anything in these games other than killing "mobs" and gather materials which didnt qualify a game as a sandbox game the last I checked. If I could chop down trees and plant new ones on the place of those, if I could bring down the wall of a castle, if I could build a boat and set sail with it, if I could push that rock off a cliff which would roll down the hill smashing some deers on the way... And so forth. That's a sandbox game.
Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.
Anyway, I agree with the part "do not make a WoW clone please" - even if a game is a themepark it does not have to share all the game mechanics, if any, with some/any other game. Would be nice to see some original or just different design choises compared to the mainstream mmorpg pool. And sandbox elements in the game.
No, thats only a part of what makes a Sandbox game.
Why is it that now-a-days everyone assumes that for a game to be Sandbox you must manipulate the enviroment somehow?
Sandbox also mean how you can manipulate and form your character and what they do.
Sandbox means that you arent stuck as a Mage or Warrior or Rogue or whatever for life.
You could start the game as a resource gatherer, then become a crafter, then learn to fight with weapons and eventually magic. or however you choose to live.
It really comes down to choice. What direction do you want to go today.
In a game like SWTOR, my choice pretty much ends once I select my character and class.
Everything from there on is directed and scripted for me with very little choice left up to me.
Well yeah, you're right about the freeform progression after thinking about it. Though when I imagine about a sandbox first thing to pop in my mind is manipulating the sand, which in these games are the environment, structures etc. I dont feel that a game is a sandbox game if it only has a freeform char progression as the sandbox feature. That would make TSW a sandbox game too but since every zone and the content in those zones are pre-determined, I feel it's quite far off being an actual sandbox game.
Just to chime in on this sandbox discussion. In every TES game I've played (Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim), you can move pretty much any object in game, corps and all. You can kill others in the game, and the effects are permanent (at least in Morrowind, it even reccomended you to restore a previous save if you killed someone in the main storyline). In that sense, you are manipulating the environment, leaving your prescence on the gameworld. That and the free roaming nature of the games make it a sandbox to me. You don't need to literally effect the landscape, like planting trees and moving dirt, to call a game sandbox. My opinion, of course.
I just want to explore the massive world that this game is going to have. The class system doesnt bother me..In the end it all turns out the same with copy and paste builds and a skill system without a skill cap just leads to tank mages and master of all unblanaced igorance.
I want to know more about the crafting in particular though.
I think freeform character progression suits a singleplayer game just fine, but not so much a multiplayer game. In multiplayer game you have the pressure of the community to be as powerful or good as possible, which makes many gamers to roll the flavour of the month build/class, and that's not very fun imo or immersive to see all of those spellcasters to turn into hulking berserkers now that the zerker abilities got buffed.
In singleplayer game you can make the kind of build you want without anyone telling you how much it sucks and why they wont take you into a group if you run with a build like that, hence fixed classes works a bit better in multiplayer games imo.
Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.
You defined what sandbox play is, and why people used to mod them into games or why some games came with the option to play in a sandbox mode.
The ability to "manipulate physically" anything in the world came well after sandbox play already existed. Sandbox did not start with games that let you build stuff, it started with people moding existing games and developers providing a gameplay mode that let you run around in a game with unlimitted/ or near unlimitted access to content, but not having to actually complete the game.
Some games had a feature called god mode. Others had one called sandbox mode. It's were the entire idea came from. It never had anything to do with building anything.
Sim city is the earliest game I can think of that I could build in, it isn't, nor has it ever been called, a sandbox. It's an open-ended strategy game. UO was the first game I ever saw that you could build a house in. I played RPG well before UO ever came out, with a sandbox mode enabled.
UO didn't invent the sandbox feature.
One of the Baldurs gate games had a hack or option to enable sandbox mode. It's the only nonobscure game I can remeber that was popular that I could do that with, it's was also why I loved those games so much. It just went on forever and didn't end; the only way an RPG should be playable.
Thank you for being the first medieval fantasy mmorpg project to have the courage and common sense to give us medieval art in our mmo, with no anime or cartoony animation in a THREE faction PvP setting.
instead of random post here on mmorpg.com how about you actualy sent it to the ZediSuits, they even got a webpage for that stuff, then you can come here and tell folks what you did sent to them and point other the way tothe website.
see here : http://www.zenimax.com/contact.php : a direct url to thier contact form. make them crazy. I dit sent a WTF are you thinking "note" perhaps they wake up
Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.
You defined what sandbox play is, and why people used to mod them into games or why some games came with the option to play in a sandbox mode.
The ability to "manipulate physically" anything in the world came well after sandbox play already existed. Sandbox did not start with games that let you build stuff, it started with people moding existing games and developers providing a gameplay mode that let you run around in a game with unlimitted/ or near unlimitted access to content, but not having to actually complete the game.
Some games had a feature called god mode. Others had one called sandbox mode. It's were the entire idea came from. It never had anything to do with building anything.
Sim city is the earliest game I can think of that I could build in, it isn't, nor has it ever been called, a sandbox. It's an open-ended strategy game. UO was the first game I ever saw that you could build a house in. I played RPG well before UO ever came out, with a sandbox mode enabled.
UO didn't invent the sandbox feature.
One of the Baldurs gate games had a hack or option to enable sandbox mode. It's the only nonobscure game I can remeber that was popular that I could do that with, it's was also why I loved those games so much. It just went on forever and didn't end; the only way an RPG should be playable.
The guy thinks Minecraft when he hears sandbox
Currently playing - FF14ARR Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
instead of random post here on mmorpg.com how about you actualy sent it to the ZediSuits, they even got a webpage for that stuff, then you can come here and tell folks what you did sent to them and point other the way tothe website.
see here : http://www.zenimax.com/contact.php : a direct url to thier contact form. make them crazy. I dit sent a WTF are you thinking "note" perhaps they wake up
thank you for the website, i am going to put it in my sig so others can go voice their opinions
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I agree with the OP. So far with the very little information somewhat leaking out, it isn't boding well for my taste and for what I love the ES series for.
Just having the freedom to move around as you please with no gated content around, while having access to all skills and abilities in a game does not make it a sandbox game when there's absolutely nothing you can manipulate physically in the world.
You defined what sandbox play is, and why people used to mod them into games or why some games came with the option to play in a sandbox mode.
The ability to "manipulate physically" anything in the world came well after sandbox play already existed. Sandbox did not start with games that let you build stuff, it started with people moding existing games and developers providing a gameplay mode that let you run around in a game with unlimitted/ or near unlimitted access to content, but not having to actually complete the game.
All I know is that when kids play at their sandboxes they build and destroy sandcastles. If you call game a sandbox game, it gives the same impression to me, that you can shape or affect something in the game physically (maybe it's just me).
Thank you for being the first medieval fantasy mmorpg project to have the courage and common sense to give us medieval art in our mmo, with no anime or cartoony animation in a THREE faction PvP setting.
I cannot thank you enough.
You haven't seen what the game looks like yet. If you're referring to the supposedly "leaked" screenshots of the game, what are you talking about? The "Leaked" screenshots look like SWTOR. Unless you're simply "assuming" what the game looks like based on the TES franchise?
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
The confusing part about this game is: Will it be Daoc2 instead of Elder Scrolls Online 1 or what ???
I myself ever will like a good Daoc2 but feel they probably miss a chance here cutting the Elder Scrolls Virtual World Part that makes the flair of the games.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
I just want to explore the massive world that this game is going to have. The class system doesnt bother me..In the end it all turns out the same with copy and paste builds and a skill system without a skill cap just leads to tank mages and master of all unblanaced igorance.
I want to know more about the crafting in particular though.
I think freeform character progression suits a singleplayer game just fine, but not so much a multiplayer game. In multiplayer game you have the pressure of the community to be as powerful or good as possible, which makes many gamers to roll the flavour of the month build/class, and that's not very fun imo or immersive to see all of those spellcasters to turn into hulking berserkers now that the zerker abilities got buffed.
In singleplayer game you can make the kind of build you want without anyone telling you how much it sucks and why they wont take you into a group if you run with a build like that, hence fixed classes works a bit better in multiplayer games imo.
But, every single class and level based game I played had balance issues and FotM classes and builds.
Rift was the last themepark I played for any real length of time.
Was warriors, then rogues, then mages, then clerics and then back to warriors again.
In vanilla wow I could pvp against level 60 with my hunter at level 45. I could kite everyone until and kill them slowly. Then it was shaman, then it was rogues, then it was mages, then it was clerics, etc. etc.
EQ, EQ2, L2, CoH, and on and on and on.
There is no such thing as a balanced MMO, it's not possible, and developers know it's not possible. That's why pretty much every game has this cycle of nerfs and buffs.
I remember I couldn't raid with my hunter in WoW. Already had a couple. I had to roll a mage in order to raid with my guild at one point. Again, class based, or freeform progression doesn't change a problem that exists in all MMO's. In class based ones it's usually about playing a NEEDED build in order to make sure you can group stuff. It's one of the big questions when people start in a new MMO, "what class is need most?" It's always been that way. Tanks and healers are always the easiest class to get in a group with, dps classes are always harder. I can Q as a tank, or dps in Rfit, if I don't Q as a tank I would sit for up to an hour waiting to do a dungeon, Q as a tank and it would take only a minute or two. Was like that with every single class that gave me an option to either heal or tank and dps. I played every role in Rift to 50, and raided with a mage and a cleric.
The gimped class problem was solved a long time ago by just letting people retrain skills. It's also possible to dummy proof a freeform system by not making overly complex (Anarchy online), and making sure that the skills you would take will be viable to your class.
Besides that, ES character progression is impossible to gimp yourself. It's entirely use based, with only spells being purshased; you couldn't gimp yourself with skyrims skill set up. You can put caps on the amount of skills you can learn to avoid the godlike issue. You could do like MO does and allow the unlearning of skills if you want to switch from 2 handed swords to a one handed mace. You can level out damage so that your choice in weapons and magic come down to style prefernce.
There are always going to be problems in any MMO. It's not inherent to any one way of doing things. It's just the nature of being huge online games with more unknown variables then the devs can ever solve. If you can't do it because it can't be balanced, then the entire genre should have been scrapped a long time ago.
BTW. Meridian 59. First graphcal MMO. Came out 17 years ago. Still running today. Guess how it's played. Not like WoW.
PS: spelling and gramatical errors just gets worse and worse. hand is like a dead fish.
I just want to explore the massive world that this game is going to have. The class system doesnt bother me..In the end it all turns out the same with copy and paste builds and a skill system without a skill cap just leads to tank mages and master of all unblanaced igorance.
I want to know more about the crafting in particular though.
I think freeform character progression suits a singleplayer game just fine, but not so much a multiplayer game. In multiplayer game you have the pressure of the community to be as powerful or good as possible, which makes many gamers to roll the flavour of the month build/class, and that's not very fun imo or immersive to see all of those spellcasters to turn into hulking berserkers now that the zerker abilities got buffed.
In singleplayer game you can make the kind of build you want without anyone telling you how much it sucks and why they wont take you into a group if you run with a build like that, hence fixed classes works a bit better in multiplayer games imo.
But, every single class and level based game I played had balance issues and FotM classes and builds.
Rift was the last themepark I played for any real length of time.
Was warriors, then rogues, then mages, then clerics and then back to warriors again.
In vanilla wow I could pvp against level 60 with my hunter at level 45. I could kite everyone until and kill them slowly. Then it was shaman, then it was rogues, then it was mages, then it was clerics, etc. etc.
EQ, EQ2, L2, CoH, and on and on and on.
There is no such thing as a balanced MMO, it's not possible, and developers know it's not possible. That's why pretty much every game has this cycle of nerfs and buffs.
Besides that, ES character progression is impossible to gimp yourself. It's entirely use based, with only spells being purshased; you couldn't gimp yourself with skyrims skill set up. You can put caps on the amount of skills you can learn to avoid the godlike issue. You could do like MO does and allow the unlearning of skills if you want to switch from 2 handed swords to a one handed mace. You can level out damage so that your choice in weapons and magic come down to style prefernce.
I understand what you are saying and I'm not telling there's a perfectly balanced fixed classes style game, just saying that in a freeform progression there's a lot more pressure to be certain way to be as good as possible. In class based game no one will ask you if you are a mage to roll a shaman at the start of the dungeon, but in freeform games there's a good chance you get the "respec or get lost" treatment, or groups simply just look for certain fotm chars. I'm not saying fixed vs. freeform are polar opposites, just saying that freeform character building has more tendency for elitism imo, and based on my experiences in class based vs. freeform games.
I dont understand the "ES char progression is impossible to gimp your self" when it in fact is very likely. There have been many people on Skyrim forums for example saying that they rerolled because leveled useless skills that they ended up not using and their overall level went up based on un-used skills and they didnt like it. How about a guy who is level 20 based on crafting, sneaking, etc, and you take him into a group just to find out that he cant swing a sword, at all. It's clear that system like the one used in Skyrim could not work in a themepark mmorpg without heavy modifications (like separate levels for combat and off combat acitivities) but you make it sound like it would be just fine as is.
I remember I couldn't raid with my hunter in WoW. Already had a couple. I had to roll a mage in order to raid with my guild at one point. Again, class based, or freeform progression doesn't change a problem that exists in all MMO's. In class based ones it's usually about playing a NEEDED build in order to make sure you can group stuff. It's one of the big questions when people start in a new MMO, "what class is need most?" It's always been that way. Tanks and healers are always the easiest class to get in a group with, dps classes are always harder. I can Q as a tank, or dps in Rfit, if I don't Q as a tank I would sit for up to an hour waiting to do a dungeon, Q as a tank and it would take only a minute or two. Was like that with every single class that gave me an option to either heal or tank and dps. I played every role in Rift to 50, and raided with a mage and a cleric.
But it does not have to be like that. No one said that you need tanks and healers in class based games. GW2 is class based game that does not have tanks and healers.
I just hope it delivers and I never play the beta I miss it but from my playing games instincts I think Guild Wars 2 Will have a big big life I just want to know the cons or bad stuff about it so im eager to play it now.
First, I'd like to present to you your own words towards the product you're currently working on:
"The entire team is committed to creating the best MMO ever made – and one that is worthy of The Elder Scrolls franchise."
Second, I'd like to say that NOTHING in this open letter to you, the developers of TESO, is based on any recent information that may or may not be true about your product as products like yours will shift & change over time through its development. However, this letter is more of a broad "this is what you NEED to know" about the product you're making, and more importantly whomyour product is meant for.
With these words as the proverbial centerpiece to this letter let me lay out the success for your product in no uncertain terms from the perspective of the fans to the Elder Scrolls franchise.
The Elder Scrolls Franchise has been, at its core, concentrated on providing the highest of quality Sandbox singleplayer "Role Playing Games" ever since 1996 with Daggerfall. Since Daggerfall we've seen MANY variations of the Elder Scrolls series that has absolutely decimated any other RPG on the market in its time to at the very least an enjoyable adventure singled around one particular group, The Fans!
Who are "The Fans" of the Elder Scrolls series you might ask? Well, it's actually quite clear once you realize what they're not. "The Fans" are not interested in easy linear quest based mouse mazes that hold your hand from place to place. "The Fans" are not interested in "Gear Score", "Dungeon Raid Weekends", or "PvP Arenas". To put it bluntly, we are NOT interested in another SWTOR. If you think going the easy route that, quite frankly, decimated the StarWars IP for the next 10yrs you've got another thing coming to you.
We want an immersive recreation of, at the very least, a product on par with the Morrowind release of The Elder Scrolls in an MMO form. That means NO instances, NO Battlegrounds, No hand-held linear questing, and NO GEAR SCORE with a giant pulsating "DPS =" indicator on our character sheet.
You must understand, you're making a product centered around a VERY specific mindset, and changing that product to fit ANOTHER mindset that had no inclination toward your product to begin with is quite simply a failure in the making. So, if all you're going to hand to the fans is something similar to the current iteration of MMOs that have come out in the past 10years as the "End all Be All" MMO aimed at "Taking a chunk out of WoW's subscriber count" you can go ahead and cancel your product right now.
"The Fans" won't buy it, and something tells me the "other" audience isn't too interested in an Elder Scrolls based on something they KNOW is more fleshed, and quite frankly if they wanted a copy of something they'll play the original.
Thank you for reading, and if this letter has come off as hostile I deeply apologize. Fans have a tendency to be passionate with their favorite franchises, and more so against them being tarnished !
Sincerely,
-A TES Fan
You said it better then I did. Well done sir.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
I approve of the message. I really want to know what is the reasoning behind all this changing the way elder scrolls games work madness because it is not making any sense at all. It's disturbing....
OP you are right on most parts but the part you are wrong about is a rather large one.
The single most attributing factor to the Elder Scrolls popularity has been its MODDING community. It is due to the modding community that Marrowind was re-released a year later, and then again 2 years after its original release...Oblivion was released and re-released for 5 YEARS because of the insane popularity of the modding community which became so large that Steam AND Bethesda got together with the heads of the most popular modding website and created an app and mod storefront for Steam to be ready for Skyrims release.
It was the mods that extended the life of the ES games far beyond any RPG before them, it was the mods that kept the game selling long after the timeframe most games even sell in stores and kept players going back to them...hell, the oblivion mod site is still recieving a bunch of mods and downloads for it TODAY, which you can check yourself.
This alone makes doing a MMORPG for ES fans next to impossible unless they somehow allow for player created content mods. The very fact that it isnt Bethesda making the game should be enough for everyone to know that they are not really targetting ES fans, the are just using the ES brand in hopes to create enough hype. Much like SWTOR, that that...thing that shouldnt be an MMO but a single player game with online capabilities.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
First, I'd like to present to you your own words towards the product you're currently working on:
"The entire team is committed to creating the best MMO ever made – and one that is worthy of The Elder Scrolls franchise."
Second, I'd like to say that NOTHING in this open letter to you, the developers of TESO, is based on any recent information that may or may not be true about your product as products like yours will shift & change over time through its development. However, this letter is more of a broad "this is what you NEED to know" about the product you're making, and more importantly whomyour product is meant for.
With these words as the proverbial centerpiece to this letter let me lay out the success for your product in no uncertain terms from the perspective of the fans to the Elder Scrolls franchise.
The Elder Scrolls Franchise has been, at its core, concentrated on providing the highest of quality Sandbox singleplayer "Role Playing Games" ever since 1996 with Daggerfall. Since Daggerfall we've seen MANY variations of the Elder Scrolls series that has absolutely decimated any other RPG on the market in its time to at the very least an enjoyable adventure singled around one particular group, The Fans!
morrowind, oblivion & skyrim are not sandboxes, they are open world themeparks
Who are "The Fans" of the Elder Scrolls series you might ask? Well, it's actually quite clear once you realize what they're not. "The Fans" are not interested in easy linear quest based mouse mazes that hold your hand from place to place. "The Fans" are not interested in "Gear Score", "Dungeon Raid Weekends", or "PvP Arenas". To put it bluntly, we are NOT interested in another SWTOR. If you think going the easy route that, quite frankly, decimated the StarWars IP for the next 10yrs you've got another thing coming to you.
nothing so far suggests this game is like tor
We want an immersive recreation of, at the very least, a product on par with the Morrowind release of The Elder Scrolls in an MMO form. That means NO instances, NO Battlegrounds, No hand-held linear questing, and NO GEAR SCORE with a giant pulsating "DPS =" indicator on our character sheet.
there are instances in skyrim, every time you enter a town it instances, every time you enter a dungeon. They have said the world is open, inlcude open non instanced dungeons. There is also no quest hubs and hand held linear questing, they already said "no quests hubs" and "just wander off and find dungeons". Unfortunately they are doing some sort of instanced PVP - my guess is that will be for while leveling only and not end game, see on who is making the game, regardless the 3 way confilict in cyrodill will be "the pinacle" of the pvp
You must understand, you're making a product centered around a VERY specific mindset, and changing that product to fit ANOTHER mindset that had no inclination toward your product to begin with is quite simply a failure in the making. So, if all you're going to hand to the fans is something similar to the current iteration of MMOs that have come out in the past 10years as the "End all Be All" MMO aimed at "Taking a chunk out of WoW's subscriber count" you can go ahead and cancel your product right now.
its not copying wow though is it, its copying daoc if anything. There will be a good chunk of what makes tes tes, just going off exploring in an open world and finding stuff, clever mob / npc AI, various guilds you can join, random npc on npc encounters. The only thing I think theyve cocked up on is having hard classes, EVE system would have suited the game better.
"The Fans" won't buy it, and something tells me the "other" audience isn't too interested in an Elder Scrolls based on something they KNOW is more fleshed, and quite frankly if they wanted a copy of something they'll play the original.
im a fan im buying it, be great being able to explore the whole of tamriel not just one province
Thank you for reading, and if this letter has come off as hostile I deeply apologize. Fans have a tendency to be passionate with their favorite franchises, and more so against them being tarnished !
OP you are right on most parts but the part you are wrong about is a rather large one.
The single most attributing factor to the Elder Scrolls popularity has been its MODDING community. It is due to the modding community that Marrowind was re-released a year later, and then again 2 years after its original release...Oblivion was released and re-released for 5 YEARS because of the insane popularity of the modding community which became so large that Steam AND Bethesda got together with the heads of the most popular modding website and created an app and mod storefront for Steam to be ready for Skyrims release.
It was the mods that extended the life of the ES games far beyond any RPG before them, it was the mods that kept the game selling long after the timeframe most games even sell in stores and kept players going back to them...hell, the oblivion mod site is still recieving a bunch of mods and downloads for it TODAY, which you can check yourself.
This alone makes doing a MMORPG for ES fans next to impossible unless they somehow allow for player created content mods. The very fact that it isnt Bethesda making the game should be enough for everyone to know that they are not really targetting ES fans, the are just using the ES brand in hopes to create enough hype. Much like SWTOR, that that...thing that shouldnt be an MMO but a single player game with online capabilities.
I won't disagree with you that ONE OF the single most important attributes of the TES's popularity is its modding community. I was trying to concentrate on a possible MMO rather than what it is to make a single player game ! After all, you can do a modding community, or system, for an MMO.
NeverWinter Nights Online is also one of those ruined franchises. They don't know how to make a proper NWN game, and MOST of the content will be from players.....stupid Cryptic >:(!
But I digress, hopefully someone over at Bethesda or Zenimax sees this thread !
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Sandbox MMO's are fun, I played one for over a year and I know there are alot of people on these forums that love a good sandbox. Unfortunantly the true "sandbox" mmo will not provide the playerbase size a larger MMO is looking for.
First, I'd like to present to you your own words towards the product you're currently working on:
"The entire team is committed to creating the best MMO ever made – and one that is worthy of The Elder Scrolls franchise."
Second, I'd like to say that NOTHING in this open letter to you, the developers of TESO, is based on any recent information that may or may not be true about your product as products like yours will shift & change over time through its development. However, this letter is more of a broad "this is what you NEED to know" about the product you're making, and more importantly whomyour product is meant for.
With these words as the proverbial centerpiece to this letter let me lay out the success for your product in no uncertain terms from the perspective of the fans to the Elder Scrolls franchise.
The Elder Scrolls Franchise has been, at its core, concentrated on providing the highest of quality Sandbox singleplayer "Role Playing Games" ever since 1996 with Daggerfall. Since Daggerfall we've seen MANY variations of the Elder Scrolls series that has absolutely decimated any other RPG on the market in its time to at the very least an enjoyable adventure singled around one particular group, The Fans!
Who are "The Fans" of the Elder Scrolls series you might ask? Well, it's actually quite clear once you realize what they're not. "The Fans" are not interested in easy linear quest based mouse mazes that hold your hand from place to place. "The Fans" are not interested in "Gear Score", "Dungeon Raid Weekends", or "PvP Arenas". To put it bluntly, we are NOT interested in another SWTOR. If you think going the easy route that, quite frankly, decimated the StarWars IP for the next 10yrs you've got another thing coming to you.
We want an immersive recreation of, at the very least, a product on par with the Morrowind release of The Elder Scrolls in an MMO form. That means NO instances, NO Battlegrounds, No hand-held linear questing, and NO GEAR SCORE with a giant pulsating "DPS =" indicator on our character sheet.
You must understand, you're making a product centered around a VERY specific mindset, and changing that product to fit ANOTHER mindset that had no inclination toward your product to begin with is quite simply a failure in the making. So, if all you're going to hand to the fans is something similar to the current iteration of MMOs that have come out in the past 10years as the "End all Be All" MMO aimed at "Taking a chunk out of WoW's subscriber count" you can go ahead and cancel your product right now.
"The Fans" won't buy it, and something tells me the "other" audience isn't too interested in an Elder Scrolls based on something they KNOW is more fleshed, and quite frankly if they wanted a copy of something they'll play the original.
Thank you for reading, and if this letter has come off as hostile I deeply apologize. Fans have a tendency to be passionate with their favorite franchises, and more so against them being tarnished !
Sincerely,
-A TES Fan
Well said ! im wish the developers see and take this letter in mind.
Comments
I just want to explore the massive world that this game is going to have. The class system doesnt bother me..In the end it all turns out the same with copy and paste builds and a skill system without a skill cap just leads to tank mages and master of all unblanaced igorance.
I want to know more about the crafting in particular though.
Well yeah, you're right about the freeform progression after thinking about it. Though when I imagine about a sandbox first thing to pop in my mind is manipulating the sand, which in these games are the environment, structures etc. I dont feel that a game is a sandbox game if it only has a freeform char progression as the sandbox feature. That would make TSW a sandbox game too but since every zone and the content in those zones are pre-determined, I feel it's quite far off being an actual sandbox game.
Just to chime in on this sandbox discussion. In every TES game I've played (Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim), you can move pretty much any object in game, corps and all. You can kill others in the game, and the effects are permanent (at least in Morrowind, it even reccomended you to restore a previous save if you killed someone in the main storyline). In that sense, you are manipulating the environment, leaving your prescence on the gameworld. That and the free roaming nature of the games make it a sandbox to me. You don't need to literally effect the landscape, like planting trees and moving dirt, to call a game sandbox. My opinion, of course.
I think freeform character progression suits a singleplayer game just fine, but not so much a multiplayer game. In multiplayer game you have the pressure of the community to be as powerful or good as possible, which makes many gamers to roll the flavour of the month build/class, and that's not very fun imo or immersive to see all of those spellcasters to turn into hulking berserkers now that the zerker abilities got buffed.
In singleplayer game you can make the kind of build you want without anyone telling you how much it sucks and why they wont take you into a group if you run with a build like that, hence fixed classes works a bit better in multiplayer games imo.
You defined what sandbox play is, and why people used to mod them into games or why some games came with the option to play in a sandbox mode.
The ability to "manipulate physically" anything in the world came well after sandbox play already existed. Sandbox did not start with games that let you build stuff, it started with people moding existing games and developers providing a gameplay mode that let you run around in a game with unlimitted/ or near unlimitted access to content, but not having to actually complete the game.
Some games had a feature called god mode. Others had one called sandbox mode. It's were the entire idea came from. It never had anything to do with building anything.
Sim city is the earliest game I can think of that I could build in, it isn't, nor has it ever been called, a sandbox. It's an open-ended strategy game. UO was the first game I ever saw that you could build a house in. I played RPG well before UO ever came out, with a sandbox mode enabled.
UO didn't invent the sandbox feature.
One of the Baldurs gate games had a hack or option to enable sandbox mode. It's the only nonobscure game I can remeber that was popular that I could do that with, it's was also why I loved those games so much. It just went on forever and didn't end; the only way an RPG should be playable.
Dear Bethesda and ESO Team:
Thank you for being the first medieval fantasy mmorpg project to have the courage and common sense to give us medieval art in our mmo, with no anime or cartoony animation in a THREE faction PvP setting.
I cannot thank you enough.
Dear everyone,
instead of random post here on mmorpg.com how about you actualy sent it to the ZediSuits, they even got a webpage for that stuff, then you can come here and tell folks what you did sent to them and point other the way tothe website.
see here : http://www.zenimax.com/contact.php : a direct url to thier contact form. make them crazy. I dit sent a WTF are you thinking "note" perhaps they wake up
The guy thinks Minecraft when he hears sandbox
Currently playing - FF14ARR
Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.
thank you for the website, i am going to put it in my sig so others can go voice their opinions
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I agree with the OP. So far with the very little information somewhat leaking out, it isn't boding well for my taste and for what I love the ES series for.
All I know is that when kids play at their sandboxes they build and destroy sandcastles. If you call game a sandbox game, it gives the same impression to me, that you can shape or affect something in the game physically (maybe it's just me).
You haven't seen what the game looks like yet. If you're referring to the supposedly "leaked" screenshots of the game, what are you talking about? The "Leaked" screenshots look like SWTOR. Unless you're simply "assuming" what the game looks like based on the TES franchise?
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
The confusing part about this game is:
Will it be Daoc2 instead of Elder Scrolls Online 1 or what ???
I myself ever will like a good Daoc2 but feel they probably miss a chance here cutting the Elder Scrolls Virtual World Part that makes the flair of the games.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
But, every single class and level based game I played had balance issues and FotM classes and builds.
Rift was the last themepark I played for any real length of time.
Was warriors, then rogues, then mages, then clerics and then back to warriors again.
In vanilla wow I could pvp against level 60 with my hunter at level 45. I could kite everyone until and kill them slowly. Then it was shaman, then it was rogues, then it was mages, then it was clerics, etc. etc.
EQ, EQ2, L2, CoH, and on and on and on.
There is no such thing as a balanced MMO, it's not possible, and developers know it's not possible. That's why pretty much every game has this cycle of nerfs and buffs.
I remember I couldn't raid with my hunter in WoW. Already had a couple. I had to roll a mage in order to raid with my guild at one point. Again, class based, or freeform progression doesn't change a problem that exists in all MMO's. In class based ones it's usually about playing a NEEDED build in order to make sure you can group stuff. It's one of the big questions when people start in a new MMO, "what class is need most?" It's always been that way. Tanks and healers are always the easiest class to get in a group with, dps classes are always harder. I can Q as a tank, or dps in Rfit, if I don't Q as a tank I would sit for up to an hour waiting to do a dungeon, Q as a tank and it would take only a minute or two. Was like that with every single class that gave me an option to either heal or tank and dps. I played every role in Rift to 50, and raided with a mage and a cleric.
The gimped class problem was solved a long time ago by just letting people retrain skills. It's also possible to dummy proof a freeform system by not making overly complex (Anarchy online), and making sure that the skills you would take will be viable to your class.
Besides that, ES character progression is impossible to gimp yourself. It's entirely use based, with only spells being purshased; you couldn't gimp yourself with skyrims skill set up. You can put caps on the amount of skills you can learn to avoid the godlike issue. You could do like MO does and allow the unlearning of skills if you want to switch from 2 handed swords to a one handed mace. You can level out damage so that your choice in weapons and magic come down to style prefernce.
There are always going to be problems in any MMO. It's not inherent to any one way of doing things. It's just the nature of being huge online games with more unknown variables then the devs can ever solve. If you can't do it because it can't be balanced, then the entire genre should have been scrapped a long time ago.
BTW. Meridian 59. First graphcal MMO. Came out 17 years ago. Still running today. Guess how it's played. Not like WoW.
PS: spelling and gramatical errors just gets worse and worse. hand is like a dead fish.
I understand what you are saying and I'm not telling there's a perfectly balanced fixed classes style game, just saying that in a freeform progression there's a lot more pressure to be certain way to be as good as possible. In class based game no one will ask you if you are a mage to roll a shaman at the start of the dungeon, but in freeform games there's a good chance you get the "respec or get lost" treatment, or groups simply just look for certain fotm chars. I'm not saying fixed vs. freeform are polar opposites, just saying that freeform character building has more tendency for elitism imo, and based on my experiences in class based vs. freeform games.
I dont understand the "ES char progression is impossible to gimp your self" when it in fact is very likely. There have been many people on Skyrim forums for example saying that they rerolled because leveled useless skills that they ended up not using and their overall level went up based on un-used skills and they didnt like it. How about a guy who is level 20 based on crafting, sneaking, etc, and you take him into a group just to find out that he cant swing a sword, at all. It's clear that system like the one used in Skyrim could not work in a themepark mmorpg without heavy modifications (like separate levels for combat and off combat acitivities) but you make it sound like it would be just fine as is.
But it does not have to be like that. No one said that you need tanks and healers in class based games. GW2 is class based game that does not have tanks and healers.
I just hope it delivers and I never play the beta I miss it
but from my playing games instincts I think Guild Wars 2 Will have a big big life I just want to know the cons or bad stuff about it so im eager to play it now.
You said it better then I did. Well done sir.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
I approve of the message. I really want to know what is the reasoning behind all this changing the way elder scrolls games work madness because it is not making any sense at all. It's disturbing....
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
OP you are right on most parts but the part you are wrong about is a rather large one.
The single most attributing factor to the Elder Scrolls popularity has been its MODDING community. It is due to the modding community that Marrowind was re-released a year later, and then again 2 years after its original release...Oblivion was released and re-released for 5 YEARS because of the insane popularity of the modding community which became so large that Steam AND Bethesda got together with the heads of the most popular modding website and created an app and mod storefront for Steam to be ready for Skyrims release.
It was the mods that extended the life of the ES games far beyond any RPG before them, it was the mods that kept the game selling long after the timeframe most games even sell in stores and kept players going back to them...hell, the oblivion mod site is still recieving a bunch of mods and downloads for it TODAY, which you can check yourself.
This alone makes doing a MMORPG for ES fans next to impossible unless they somehow allow for player created content mods. The very fact that it isnt Bethesda making the game should be enough for everyone to know that they are not really targetting ES fans, the are just using the ES brand in hopes to create enough hype. Much like SWTOR, that that...thing that shouldnt be an MMO but a single player game with online capabilities.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
TES isnt a sandbox
Its an open world themepark
I won't disagree with you that ONE OF the single most important attributes of the TES's popularity is its modding community. I was trying to concentrate on a possible MMO rather than what it is to make a single player game
! After all, you can do a modding community, or system, for an MMO.
NeverWinter Nights Online is also one of those ruined franchises. They don't know how to make a proper NWN game, and MOST of the content will be from players.....stupid Cryptic >:(!
But I digress, hopefully someone over at Bethesda or Zenimax sees this thread
!
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Sandbox MMO's are fun, I played one for over a year and I know there are alot of people on these forums that love a good sandbox. Unfortunantly the true "sandbox" mmo will not provide the playerbase size a larger MMO is looking for.
Well said ! im wish the developers see and take this letter in mind.