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I havent seen PvP like this...

Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

Ever since DAOC.

 

Have you guys seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZHsfa6gEs&feature=relmfu

 

Just incredible how tactical this battle was, so much more then just trying to bash the door, these guys take a heavilly defended camp. they have sepperated teams for delivering supply and use the terrain to their advantage.  Actually it sounds like there is much more tactics involved then in DAoC.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

Comments

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon

    for sure a blast.

    i loved how i could go it in a small group, solo, or zerg and still get stuff done.

  • Zeus.CMZeus.CM ZagrebPosts: 1,788Member

    That was EPIC! Thanks for the video. WvW is far more complex than I thought.

  • ironhelixironhelix fairfield, OHPosts: 448Member

    I like how planning and tactics are used, but I cannot help but feel that, at the end of the day, it all degenerates into a zerg-fest. I will almost certainly give the game a try (having no subscription cost is a key factor in this), but I am metering my expectations. It is difficult to pull off large-scale PvP in games like this, and I am not convinced that they have done it.

    EDIT: I also want to add that the excessive use of AOE in that video is a BIG turn-off for a lot of people. I am frightened at how much it looks like Warhammer Online. Warhammer had some good things going for it, but AOE being such a huge part of group PvP was not one of those things.

  • Master10KMaster10K LondonPosts: 3,065Member

    Posted this a while ago but this really is the sort of video that everyone, even the least bit interested, in GW2's WvW must see. My favourite bit was the Mesmer portals.

    image

  • dreldrel san francisco, CAPosts: 918Member

    Thank you! Since there is no beta this weekend, this is the next best thing!

    This battble is a perfect example of what makes GW2 so great! So reminisent of DAoC!

  • vee41vee41 TamperePosts: 191Member

    Originally posted by ironhelix

    I like how planning and tactics are used, but I cannot help but feel that, at the end of the day, it all degenerates into a zerg-fest. I will almost certainly give the game a try (having no subscription cost is a key factor in this), but I am metering my expectations. It is difficult to pull off large-scale PvP in games like this, and I am not convinced that they have done it.

    EDIT: I also want to add that the excessive use of AOE in that video is a BIG turn-off for a lot of people. I am frightened at how much it looks like Warhammer Online. Warhammer had some good things going for it, but AOE being such a huge part of group PvP was not one of those things.

    AOE's hit maxium of 5 targets, so it's not as deadly as it might seem. I share some of your worries though, but this video is epic :)

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member

    Here is an other great video, pure action, not much strategy with siege and Castle involved like in OP vid, but still very interesting from a pure team work perspective. It also let you really see how some comabt aspect of the game work.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbRYEE1k-xk

  • ZeroxinZeroxin LondonPosts: 2,521Member Uncommon

    Haha, the Battle for Dreaming Bay. Definitely a movie title.

    This is not a game.

  • Master10KMaster10K LondonPosts: 3,065Member

    Originally posted by Zeroxin

    Haha, the Battle for Dreaming Bay. Definitely a movie title.

    Yeah. All it needs is some Hans Zimmer and it will be perfect. Maybe that's something I'll do come next beta weekend. image

    image

  • Chrome1980Chrome1980 LondonPosts: 511Member

    Nice video. Only thing that made me go 'meh' was the AOE, and yes it might hit 5 people at most but since all classes have aoe, so it is not just limited to 5 people.

    Other than that looks great fun.

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member

     






    Originally posted by vee41





    Originally posted by ironhelix



    I like how planning and tactics are used, but I cannot help but feel that, at the end of the day, it all degenerates into a zerg-fest. I will almost certainly give the game a try (having no subscription cost is a key factor in this), but I am metering my expectations. It is difficult to pull off large-scale PvP in games like this, and I am not convinced that they have done it.

    EDIT: I also want to add that the excessive use of AOE in that video is a BIG turn-off for a lot of people. I am frightened at how much it looks like Warhammer Online. Warhammer had some good things going for it, but AOE being such a huge part of group PvP was not one of those things.





    AOE's hit maxium of 5 targets, so it's not as deadly as it might seem. I share some of your worries though, but this video is epic :)



     

    The only problem with aoe imo is visual, it just is visually too much, but from a pure mechanism perspective, this in fact is the best anti zerg system. Once more watch the vid i linked to make sure to understand what i mean. With aoe you can really lock a zone, place an impassable barrier, place group trap and so on, so it bring a lot of strategy for sure. So if you have to criticize a system you also should keep in mind what it really bring to the table.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    To add in warhammer - aoe was a good tactic for mid ranking guilds vs pugs.

    Top guilds did not use bomb groups, they played / specced in a way to beat bomb groups.
  • tavoctavoc Friedensburg, PAPosts: 256Member

    I played in wvwvw durring beta weekend. I have to say looking at it threw a video and playing it is a completely diferent expeciance. The best part is, actualy playing it is by far more exiting. I barely have any complaints about the game but seriously this secrion of the game took the cake.. started WvWvW with the sun up saying  "yeah ill give this a shot before getting back to running events".. Well the sun went down.. then came up again and i was still stuck inside the battle and barely noticed the time. Yeah thats right, i was in the WvWvW from about 7 pm est to 6:30 am est and barely noticed.. i was having WAY too much fun.

    image

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by ironhelix

    EDIT: I also want to add that the excessive use of AOE in that video is a BIG turn-off for a lot of people. I am frightened at how much it looks like Warhammer Online. Warhammer had some good things going for it, but AOE being such a huge part of group PvP was not one of those things.

    Well, the way AoE  works, just keep out of the circles... AoE can be survived.

     

    Focussed single target fire is much harder to survive. Remember the assist trains in some PvP games... You where dead when being targetted. The AoE tactics is probably just the easiest tactic for zergs, try to overcome it and you are a winner.

     

    This is just the tip of the iceberg, i think that tactics will change during the game same as flavour of the month classes in other games.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • HomituHomitu Hometown, HIPosts: 2,030Member

    Originally posted by ironhelix

    I like how planning and tactics are used, but I cannot help but feel that, at the end of the day, it all degenerates into a zerg-fest. I will almost certainly give the game a try (having no subscription cost is a key factor in this), but I am metering my expectations. It is difficult to pull off large-scale PvP in games like this, and I am not convinced that they have done it.

    EDIT: I also want to add that the excessive use of AOE in that video is a BIG turn-off for a lot of people. I am frightened at how much it looks like Warhammer Online. Warhammer had some good things going for it, but AOE being such a huge part of group PvP was not one of those things.

    An unorganized purely zerg group would have never pulled off that keep siege.  

    Yes, combat involving 50+ players on each side looks chaotic.  But massive numbers of players =/= zerg. Aoe does have a prominant role as well (though each AoE can hit no more than 5 players at once,) but there are also dozens of objectives perfectly suitable for smaller infiltration groups, such as the capturing of various supply points, the transportation of supply and the elimnation of supply caravans headed toward a keep you are sieging.  More than anything else though, it seems vital to build, properly place, and defend the various siege weapons, which just seems to broaden the scope of the warfare and pave the way for massive group tactics.  

  • ValkaernValkaern OxfordPosts: 512Member

    As much as I loved DAoC, there just seemed to be so many more options in WvW in terms of activities that were productive for all group sizes. There's also the fact that DAoC eventually also devolved into 8 man groups chain assisting people down as a primary activity and the whole 'Whoever gets mez off first wins' deal. Taking and defending keeps was great fun in DAoC, but  they'd kind of let the rest of the battlefield play out in a way that wasn't as enjoyable for me.

    Whether it was highjacking a Dolyak caravan (or guarding one on its route), taking out a supply post, taking down NPC invaders they'd sent our way or helping the main force, there just always seemed to be some area of the battle I could effect depending on the size of the group I ended up in. I still have a lot to learn about the details of it all, but so far it's been a lot of fun.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Valkaern

    As much as I loved DAoC, there just seemed to be so many more options in WvW in terms of activities that were productive for all group sizes. There's also the fact that DAoC eventually also devolved into 8 man groups chain assisting people down as a primary activity and the whole 'Whoever gets mez off first wins' deal. Taking and defending keeps was great fun in DAoC, but  they'd kind of let the rest of the battlefield play out in a way that wasn't as enjoyable for me.

    Whether it was highjacking a Dolyak caravan (or guarding one on its route), taking out a supply post, taking down NPC invaders they'd sent our way or helping the main force, there just always seemed to be some area of the battle I could effect depending on the size of the group I ended up in. I still have a lot to learn about the details of it all, but so far it's been a lot of fun.

    Do people even remember the biggest source of AoE damage in DAoC was PBAoE.  

     

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • ValkaernValkaern OxfordPosts: 512Member

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by Valkaern

    As much as I loved DAoC, there just seemed to be so many more options in WvW in terms of activities that were productive for all group sizes. There's also the fact that DAoC eventually also devolved into 8 man groups chain assisting people down as a primary activity and the whole 'Whoever gets mez off first wins' deal. Taking and defending keeps was great fun in DAoC, but  they'd kind of let the rest of the battlefield play out in a way that wasn't as enjoyable for me.

    Whether it was highjacking a Dolyak caravan (or guarding one on its route), taking out a supply post, taking down NPC invaders they'd sent our way or helping the main force, there just always seemed to be some area of the battle I could effect depending on the size of the group I ended up in. I still have a lot to learn about the details of it all, but so far it's been a lot of fun.

    Do people even remember the biggest source of AoE damage in DAoC was PBAoE.  

     

    What I do remember is not fearing PBAoEs at all as a ranged class.

    Yeah, it was a big source of damage...at doors where it was usually spammed. As a ranged class in DAoC it wasn't nearly the threat other ranged attacks were, as not being in PBAoEs was something you continually avoided as much as possible. 

    Naturally they did more damage as they were harder to get off reliably.

    Edit: Also, I'm not exactly sure what point that's making, if you don't mind clarifying.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Valkaern


    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    Originally posted by Valkaern


    As much as I loved DAoC, there just seemed to be so many more options in WvW in terms of activities that were productive for all group sizes. There's also the fact that DAoC eventually also devolved into 8 man groups chain assisting people down as a primary activity and the whole 'Whoever gets mez off first wins' deal. Taking and defending keeps was great fun in DAoC, but  they'd kind of let the rest of the battlefield play out in a way that wasn't as enjoyable for me.
    Whether it was highjacking a Dolyak caravan (or guarding one on its route), taking out a supply post, taking down NPC invaders they'd sent our way or helping the main force, there just always seemed to be some area of the battle I could effect depending on the size of the group I ended up in. I still have a lot to learn about the details of it all, but so far it's been a lot of fun.

    Do people even remember the biggest source of AoE damage in DAoC was PBAoE.  

     

    What I do remember is not fearing PBAoEs at all as a ranged class.

    Yeah, it was a big source of damage...at doors where it was usually spammed. As a ranged class in DAoC it wasn't nearly the threat other ranged attacks were, as not being in PBAoEs was something you continually avoided as much as possible. 

    Naturally they did more damage as they were harder to get off reliably.

    Edit: Also, I'm not exactly sure what point that's making, if you don't mind clarifying.

     

    It was just one of the viable 8v8 and keep defence tactics. And i am sure that GW2 which has much more tactical possibilities will grow past the AoE only battle. Espescially the skilled will quickly move on, but maybe AoE may still be the first and major weapon of the unedicated forces.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Calgary, ABPosts: 1,323Member

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

     

     

    It was just one of the viable 8v8 and keep defence tactics. And i am sure that GW2 which has much more tactical possibilities will grow past the AoE only battle. Espescially the skilled will quickly move on, but maybe AoE may still be the first and major weapon of the unedicated forces.

    Doesn't  a lot of that have to do with range. I don't have a lot of experience with DAOC. I could barely stomach playing the game because it is  so dated. 

    However I remember that there was different ranges on AoE and single target spell. The single target spells had longer range and did more damage. If 2 people concentrated fire on one target by spamming long range nukes, that target went down quickly. This resulted in stand offs where people would sit just outside each others range. Whoever stepped into range got killed quickly.

    GW2 so far hasn't played out like that at all. Plus all classes have some sort of range, which means they don't have to stand on the sidelines and watch. Another plus is not having outrageous cc. DAOC must have been the worst game for cc ever made to my knowledge.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Atlan99

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


     

     

    It was just one of the viable 8v8 and keep defence tactics. And i am sure that GW2 which has much more tactical possibilities will grow past the AoE only battle. Espescially the skilled will quickly move on, but maybe AoE may still be the first and major weapon of the unedicated forces.

    Doesn't  a lot of that have to do with range. I don't have a lot of experience with DAOC. I could barely stomach playing the game because it is  so dated. 

    However I remember that there was different ranges on AoE and single target spell. The single target spells had longer range and did more damage. If 2 people concentrated fire on one target by spamming long range nukes, that target went down quickly. This resulted in stand offs where people would sit just outside each others range. Whoever stepped into range got killed quickly.

    GW2 so far hasn't played out like that at all. Plus all classes have some sort of range, which means they don't have to stand on the sidelines and watch. Another plus is not having outrageous cc. DAOC must have been the worst game for cc ever made to my knowledge.

     

    Not really, actually it was the best, because the CC added an extra layer of tactics.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • HauvarnHauvarn Walker, LAPosts: 220Member

    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    To add in warhammer - aoe was a good tactic for mid ranking guilds vs pugs.



    Top guilds did not use bomb groups, they played / specced in a way to beat bomb groups.

    I dunno if you played on dark crag or not, but all the top order guilds where using bomb groups in rvr.

     

     

    Yes I played SWTOR.

  • Since there are short range teleports and portals there is no reason you can simply do a quick flanking maneuver with melee on anybody turtling with aoe.

    8 warriors/rangers/guardians with greatswords/hammes moved in my a couple melee mesmers will slice and dice things very quickly especially with surprise.  And the guardians will let you get through any AoEs they manage to put out.  A single AoE is not all that powerful.

     

    Keeo in mind mesmer can have group invisible as well.

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