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Why this game is a bad idea

Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

I know there are a lot of posts talking about how this game is a WoW clone or what not, and you're probably thinking...not another one!  But hear me out...I think there is a very specific reason why this game is just a bad idea.

First off, think about the Elder Scrolls games...what makes them special?  

Is it the IP?  Is Tamriel a beloved world that people hoard collectibles about and dream of at night like Star Wars or LOTR?  No...I don't think so.  It's got a lot of lore for sure, but I don't think the Tamriel IP is anywhere close to the popularity of Star Wars or even Azeroth.

Is it the addicting progression mechanics?  No...not really.  You can get to "max level" in an Elder Scrolls game fairly quickly.  People are definitely not playing these games because they are addicted to a grind.

...So then what is it that makes these games so special?

I'll tell you.  It's the excellent open-ended gameplay.

People love these games because they allow you to explore an awesome, detailed world and really just pick whatever path you wish to follow.  But that's not all...part of what makes these games so excellent is the fact that the SAME CORE DEV TEAM has worked on Morrowwind, Oblivion, and Skyrim.

Now let's look at TES:Online.

This game is NOT developed by the team that made the previous Elder Scrolls games, and from all indications it will NOT have that open-ended gameplay that people have come to associate with TES.

So all it's left with is the brand and the IP.  And I'm sorry, that's not what makes Elder Scrolls special.  No one has a mint edition Emperor Whateverimus figure in their basement.  No, they have a vintage Han Solo figure or even freaking Hello Kitty.

The TES IP is just not popular enough to base everything on and frankly, I think that's what they are doing.  They are just trying to make a "traditional MMO" set in Tamriel.

Good luck with that.

 

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

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Comments

  • maxiime223maxiime223 montreal, QCPosts: 94Member

    i can do nothing but agree.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I think that's what they are doing.  They are just trying to make a "traditional MMO" set in Tamriel.
     

    You skipped the part explaining why this is supposedly bad idea...

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,902Member Uncommon

    My word they're starting early with this stuff... its only a bad idea if it doesn't turn out to be a good MMO. THe features I've seen thus far do not scream WOW to me at all. But hey think what you want.

    People seem too happy to just look forward to one game, rather than welcome other options, that's the way I see it.

    THis is not a SP TES game, conventions there really shouldn't judge the way in which an MMO is approached. There's little coherent way to take that and place it into an MMO, without having a free-for-all cluster****. I'll wait to see what the game is from the ground up before making any judgements for or against.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    My word they're starting early with this stuff... its only a bad idea if it doesn't turn out to be a good MMO. THe features I've seen thus far do not scream WOW to me at all. But hey think what you want.

    I don't know if it will be terrible, but I'm pretty sure it has absolutely nothing to do with TES other than having the same name and being set in the same world.

    I almost think it would have behooved them to title the game differently.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • NomadMorlockNomadMorlock N/A, VAPosts: 593Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I know there are a lot of posts talking about how this game is a WoW clone or what not, and you're probably thinking...not another one!  But hear me out...I think there is a very specific reason why this game is just a bad idea.

    First off, think about the Elder Scrolls games...what makes them special?  

    Is it the IP?  Is Tamriel a beloved world that people hoard collectibles about and dream of at night like Star Wars or LOTR?  No...I don't think so.  It's got a lot of lore for sure, but I don't think the Tamriel IP is anywhere close to the popularity of Star Wars or even Azeroth.

    Is it the addicting progression mechanics?  No...not really.  You can get to "max level" in an Elder Scrolls game fairly quickly.  People are definitely not playing these games because they are addicted to a grind.

    ...So then what is it that makes these games so special?

    I'll tell you.  It's the excellent open-ended gameplay.

    People love these games because they allow you to explore an awesome, detailed world and really just pick whatever path you wish to follow.  But that's not all...part of what makes these games so excellent is the fact that the SAME CORE DEV TEAM has worked on Morrowwind, Oblivion, and Skyrim.

    Now let's look at TES:Online.

    This game is NOT developed by the team that made the previous Elder Scrolls games, and from all indications it will NOT have that open-ended gameplay that people have come to associate with TES.

    So all it's left with is the brand and the IP.  And I'm sorry, that's not what makes Elder Scrolls special.  No one has a mint edition Emperor Whateverimus figure in their basement.  No, they have a vintage Han Solo figure or even freaking Hello Kitty.

    The TES IP is just not popular enough to base everything on and frankly, I think that's what they are doing.  They are just trying to make a "traditional MMO" set in Tamriel.

    Good luck with that.

     

    I concur.

  • Skooma2Skooma2 Glenview, ILPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    To all of you asserting that the sky is falling:

     

    We have seen one photo of two NPCs.  Does this have the detail of Skyrim?  No.  Do you know what kind of computing power one would have to have in order to keep track of that many people with that level of detail?    We have seen one trailer.  Essentially, we know NOTHING essential.

    Do I expect the MMO to have the same gameplay as the single player versions?  Of course, not.  That simply is not the way MMOs work. 

    What I want to see is similar to GW's leveling.  In other words, a quick trip to max level and everything is considered endgame. 

     

    Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Creslin321



    I think that's what they are doing.  They are just trying to make a "traditional MMO" set in Tamriel.

     




     

    You skipped the part explaining why this is supposedly bad idea...

    Because they are essentially making a TES game without any of the components that make TES enjoyable.

    It would be like making GTA but just getting rid of the explorable city and having it be a simple level based game.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • StalkerousStalkerous Brooklyn, NYPosts: 92Member Uncommon

    All I'll say is this game will fail big time.........

    image

  • krulerkruler PerthPosts: 340Member Uncommon

    The point would be because its the reaction of them yelling in a loud voice "Elder Scrolls Online" grabbing peoples attention, then said people then looking at the details and doing one big FACEPALM.

    Sometimes taking an IP and trying to shoehorn a MMO to fit said IP doesnt work I hold up Warhammer Online as a classic example of that, oh and Star Trek Online in fact there is quite a number of them, you would thinl someone would of worked out why they aint working as well as they were pitched by now, (Glares at investors)

    There is no God, there is no Devil, nor Angels and Demons, there is only us, surely thats bad enough, for no creature is able to commit such acts of hate and love, sometimes in the same day.

  • FiredornFiredorn Montreal, QCPosts: 93Member

    They take literary IP and make movies from them.  They take a movie IP and make games with them.  They take a game IP and write novels about them.  What's your point?

    The Elder Scrolls IP has been around for quite a while and they are now deciding to make a MMOG out of it.  So what?  The current benchmark of comparison for most MMOGs is a game that was based on a series of RTS games.

    While I'll agree that this is your opinion (which everyone is entitled to), I fail to see the point in your argument.

  • LizardEgyptLizardEgypt Yarmouth, NSPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    My word they're starting early with this stuff... its only a bad idea if it doesn't turn out to be a good MMO. THe features I've seen thus far do not scream WOW to me at all. But hey think what you want.

    People seem too happy to just look forward to one game, rather than welcome other options, that's the way I see it.

    THis is not a SP TES game, conventions there really shouldn't judge the way in which an MMO is approached. There's little coherent way to take that and place it into an MMO, without having a free-for-all cluster****. I'll wait to see what the game is from the ground up before making any judgements for or against.

    Tab Target, Classes, Instanced PVP, Group Dungeon Endgame, Heroic Dungeons. 

    Sorry you said it doesn't remind you of WoW at all? The franchise being first person and action oriented with no need for any of those features at all?

    Games similar to TES have worked as MMOs before, these big budget companies are just too scared to do it.

    Currently playing - FF14ARR
    Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Creslin321Because they are essentially making a TES game without any of the components that make TES enjoyable.

    That does not explain anything, you just state assumption about the game.


    You said yourself that "The TES IP is just not popular enough to base everything on" so it does sound rather like a good idea not to incorporate "the components that make TES enjoyable" because of low IP popularity.


    Please do explain how it is a bad idea.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,902Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Distopia

    My word they're starting early with this stuff... its only a bad idea if it doesn't turn out to be a good MMO. THe features I've seen thus far do not scream WOW to me at all. But hey think what you want.

    I don't know if it will be terrible, but I'm pretty sure it has absolutely nothing to do with TES other than having the same name and being set in the same world.

    I almost think it would have behooved them to title the game differently.

    I really like TES lore it's in my top list of fantasy (game-wise). That's really all the TES I could want in the game as long as it's done well. I expect different things of my MMO than I do my SP rpg, bethsoft games are mainly all I'll touch in that regard anymore.

    For an MMO I want good PVP regardless of the IP, there is a severe lack of decent options in this genre for that, on top of that they're making exploring mean something, the other thing i want from an MMO. On paper it sounds good to me.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,902Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by LizardEgypt

    Originally posted by Distopia

    My word they're starting early with this stuff... its only a bad idea if it doesn't turn out to be a good MMO. THe features I've seen thus far do not scream WOW to me at all. But hey think what you want.

    People seem too happy to just look forward to one game, rather than welcome other options, that's the way I see it.

    THis is not a SP TES game, conventions there really shouldn't judge the way in which an MMO is approached. There's little coherent way to take that and place it into an MMO, without having a free-for-all cluster****. I'll wait to see what the game is from the ground up before making any judgements for or against.

    Tab Target, Classes, Instanced PVP, Group Dungeon Endgame, Heroic Dungeons. 

    That just says MMO to me, I've played many, never really WOW though (lvl 20 was the pinnacle of my WOW experience). ANd sorry endgame for me will be three way PVP. I couldn't care less what they do for PVE end-game.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • LizardEgyptLizardEgypt Yarmouth, NSPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Creslin321



    Because they are essentially making a TES game without any of the components that make TES enjoyable.

     

     



     

    That does not explain anything, you just state assumption about the game.



    You said yourself that "The TES IP is just not popular enough to base everything on" so it does sound rather like a good idea not to incorporate "the components that make TES enjoyable."



    Please do explain how it is a bad idea.

    Wow his argument flies right over your head. The base IP of Elder Scrolls is only strong because games like Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim were popular for having a robust set of content and features, most of them being sandbox and allowing people to play the game adhering to their own goals. 

    What he's saying is that without those features, the word itself and lore isn't strong enough to carry itself through a mediocre and generic game. Especially by a developer who doesn't understand fully what they're working with. Am I going to be able to dedicate 30 hours of gameplay studying Dwemer artifacts and collecting them in my house? That's how I spent a solid week on Morrowind one time, I like the options and the kind of personal role-play that everyone does in their own head. These features can easily be obtained in an MMO setting, with more obvious emphasis on other players and your interaction with them. People played Darkfall as Crafters, some as Mercenaries pvping for money, some players dedicated themselves to global domination, others were commanders. That game had not a shred of NPC or PvE content and still offered an immersive personal experience.. and it was made by the worst company imaginable and was by far the best effort at a modern MMO I've ever seen. Imagine if Bethesda had looked at inspiration from them and turned that style of game into something great, rather than look at who's making the most money and fight a losing battle. 

    Currently playing - FF14ARR
    Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by LizardEgypt


    Originally posted by Distopia

    My word they're starting early with this stuff... its only a bad idea if it doesn't turn out to be a good MMO. THe features I've seen thus far do not scream WOW to me at all. But hey think what you want.

    People seem too happy to just look forward to one game, rather than welcome other options, that's the way I see it.

    THis is not a SP TES game, conventions there really shouldn't judge the way in which an MMO is approached. There's little coherent way to take that and place it into an MMO, without having a free-for-all cluster****. I'll wait to see what the game is from the ground up before making any judgements for or against.

    Tab Target, Classes, Instanced PVP, Group Dungeon Endgame, Heroic Dungeons. 

    That just says MMO to me, I've played many, never really WOW though (lvl 20 was the pinnacle of my WOW experience). ANd sorry endgame for me will be three way PVP. I couldn't care less what they do for PVE end-game.

    More like themepark MMO ;).

    There are plenty of MMO's that don't have those mechanics.  Even though it's a crappy game, I actually liked the FPS combat in Darkfall because it reminded me of...oh you know, the Elder Scrolls lol.

    I had hoped that if Bethesda ever made an ES:O game that they would do that style of combat justice.  Unfortunately, Bethesda never did make an ES:O game, and they are not working on one now ;).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by LizardEgypt

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Creslin321



    Because they are essentially making a TES game without any of the components that make TES enjoyable.

     

     



     

    That does not explain anything, you just state assumption about the game.



    You said yourself that "The TES IP is just not popular enough to base everything on" so it does sound rather like a good idea not to incorporate "the components that make TES enjoyable."



    Please do explain how it is a bad idea.

    Wow his argument flies right over your head. The base IP of Elder Scrolls is only strong because games like Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim were popular for having a robust set of content and features, most of them being sandbox and allowing people to play the game adhering to their own goals. 

    What he's saying is that without those features, the word itself and lore isn't strong enough to carry itself through a mediocre and generic game. Especially by a developer who doesn't understand fully what they're working with. Am I going to be able to dedicate 30 hours of gameplay studying Dwemer artifacts and collecting them in my house? That's how I spent a solid week on Morrowind one time, I like the options and the kind of personal role-play that everyone does in their own head. These features can easily be obtained in an MMO setting, with more obvious emphasis on other players and your interaction with them. People played Darkfall as Crafters, some as Mercenaries pvping for money, some players dedicated themselves to global domination, others were commanders. That game had not a shred of NPC or PvE content and still offered an immersive personal experience.. and it was made by the worst company imaginable and was by far the best effort at a modern MMO I've ever seen. Imagine if Bethesda had looked at inspiration from them and turned that style of game into something great, rather than look at who's making the most money and fight a losing battle. 

    Exactly, thanks for that :).

    And you know...it's really not that hard for me to think of some cool things like they could have done with the TES MMO right off the cuff like:

    1.  Allow player guilds to sponsor chapters of the typical TES guilds (mage's, fighters, thieves) in different cities.  These chapters would then offer quests to other players, would take a cut of the player's reward upon completing a quest, and could serve as a recruitment mechanism for the sponsoring guild.

    2.  There are so many books in TES...why not let players write them and publish them?

    3.  Spellmaking.  Why not let players combine spell effects to make their own custom spells?  I know you may be thinking "balance!"  But honestly, there wasn't that much you could even do in Oblivion with this system, but having it there was still fun...you got to name your spells and all.

    4.  Skill system...why is there a traditional class system in this game????  I understand the whole idea of wanting people in specialized roles for grouping, but you DO NOT need to use a traditional class system for that.  A limited skill system could do just as well and preserve a lot of the TES feel.

     

    Anyway, I know these ideas aren't "earthshattering" but I think they are a better choice than the good ol' "let's play it safe" cop out approach that it seems like they are taking.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common

    It's a bad idea for all the lazy developers who have been trying to avoid the THREE FACTION MODEL.

    image
  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by LizardEgyptWow his argument flies right over your head.

    Yes, it does as it has no solid ground whatsoever.

    You only rephrased what I said already, making same invalid conclusions as OP.

    With or without "TES features", the IP is not strong enough therefore it is reasonable to use the lore and make what you consider "mediocre and generic game" because apparently those games are where the money is.


    And I am still waiting on explanation how bad this idea - using the TES lore, is...

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by LizardEgypt

     

    Wow his argument flies right over your head.



     

    Yes, it does as it has no solid ground whatsoever.

    You only rephrased what I said already, making same invalid conclusions as OP.

     

    With or without "TES features", the IP is not strong enough therefore it is reasonable to use the lore and make what you consider "mediocre and generic game" because apparently those games are where the money is.



    And I am still waiting on explanation how bad this idea - using the TES lore, is...

    For the third time...

    It's a bad idea because the ES IP is not what makes the Elder Scrolls great games.  The ES IP isn't anywhere close to the same weight class as a more popular IP like Mario, Zelda, Star Wars, or Final Fantasy.

    Think about it this way...if Nintendo came out with a Tetris like game that features Mario...would people buy it?  YES, and they did...Dr. Mario.  People bought the game because they love Mario.  It is a valuable IP.  If the game were called "Super Pill Quest" it would not have done nearly as well I'm sure.

    Now if Bethesda came out with Elder Scrolls Puzzle Quest where you have to solve visual puzzles inside Tiber Septim's palace ala Myst...do you think it would instantly do well because it is "Elder Scrolls?"  I really don't think it would.  If anything, it would succeed on fail on its own merit, and it would probably confuse a lot of people who were expecting an Elder Scrolls game.

    The point is that what makes the ES games good is the open-ended gameplay and the fact that the same dev team has always worked on them, giving them a feel of progressive quality...each one just gets better and doesn't lose much.

    ES:O has neither of these.  It's made by a COMPLETELY different team, and it's a completely different kind of game.  So the only thing it really "gains" from being an ES game is the IP.  And that's probably the least valuable aspect of the ES franchise.

    Now if you want to argue against this...that's fine.  But please don't respond saying you are still waiting on an explanation.

     

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Creslin321Think about it this way...if Nintendo came out with a Tetris like game that features Mario...would people buy it?  YES, and they did...Dr. Mario.  People bought the game because they love Mario.  It is a valuable IP.  If the game were called "Super Pill Quest" it would not have done nearly as well I'm sure.
    Now if Bethesda came out with Elder Scrolls Puzzle Quest where you have to solve visual puzzles inside Tiber Septim's palace ala Myst...do you think it would instantly do well because it is "Elder Scrolls?"  I really don't think it would.
     

    You imply that only very popular IPs are worth to use.

    This implication is completely stupid tho.


    If that was your only argument why using TES IP is a bad idea....oh, well...

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,902Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Creslin321

     

    For the third time...

    It's a bad idea because the ES IP is not what makes the Elder Scrolls great games. 

    I have to disagree completely for me the lore is the most important aspect (the twine that holds it all together) WIthout it TES would just be games you can do as you please in (many of those have existed for years). It's the lore that adds so much substance, discovery and ultimately keeps me playing the series. No otther video- game has built such a vivid history within itself in such a way, not for a long time anyway.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • LizardEgyptLizardEgypt Yarmouth, NSPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Creslin321



    Think about it this way...if Nintendo came out with a Tetris like game that features Mario...would people buy it?  YES, and they did...Dr. Mario.  People bought the game because they love Mario.  It is a valuable IP.  If the game were called "Super Pill Quest" it would not have done nearly as well I'm sure.

    Now if Bethesda came out with Elder Scrolls Puzzle Quest where you have to solve visual puzzles inside Tiber Septim's palace ala Myst...do you think it would instantly do well because it is "Elder Scrolls?"  I really don't think it would.

     




     

    You imply that only very popular IPs are worth to use.

    This implication is completely stupid tho.

    The average Skyrim player is going to say "Oh look new Elder Scrolls game, Skyrim was pretty awesome I'll check it out" and see something completely different. The lore is not going to save them from saying "Well why isn't it first person and badass like the others?" 

    The lore IS awesome, like I said I enjoyed just studying Dwemer stuff from within the game, but it's open-endedness allowed me to enjoy that lore however I wanted, in an immersive first person fashion. None of that is going to hold up in the new system. 

    Currently playing - FF14ARR
    Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by LizardEgyptThe average Skyrim player is going to say "Oh look new Elder Scrolls game, Skyrim was pretty awesome I'll check it out" and see something completely different. The lore is not going to save them from saying "Well why isn't it first person and badass like the others?" 

    The average Skyrim player prefer his X360 over PC MMO.


    It is you implying that the lore is supposed to "save them" and only way for the game to succeed.

    As if IP could not be used to provide developed, rich game world...oh wait, it can...

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAPosts: 2,320Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by Creslin321


     

    For the third time...

    It's a bad idea because the ES IP is not what makes the Elder Scrolls great games. 

    I have to disagree completely for me the lore is the most important aspect (the twine that holds it all together) WIthout it TES would just be games you can do as you please in (many of those have existed for years). It's the lore that adds so much substance, discovery and ultimately keeps me playing the series. No otther video- game has built such a vivid history within itself in such a way, not for a long time anyway.

    I think that's a matter of playstyle. I honestly don't care much about TES lore. I like the stuff I read as I play, and the NPC interactions, but I don't like it enough to commit any of it to memory nor do I go looking for more information on it via the ingame books or anything. I know nothing of Morrowwind despite everyone claiming it is the pinnacle of gaming and storyline. 

    I rushed out and bought Skyrim because I enjoyed the open-world feeling of Oblivion. The storyline, I didn't really care about, I just liked being free of restriction. It's the same reason I bought the Fallout games. I have almost 300 hours into Fallout 3 and I honestly couldn't tell you why anything that happened in it, happened. I sure had fun blowing up that town full of zombie-lookin' people, though...

    I suppose that means people who loved TES for the gameplay are more disappointed than those who loved it for the Lore will be, which is fine. There are other games on the horizon that will satiate those open world desires. But it is disappointing if it turns out that TES:O isn't one of them.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

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