I do agree that rewards for both WvW and arena pvp should be looked at more carefully. I also think gates might need a bit more tweaking, but that could be also that we didn't find more effective ways to bust in to keeps. Now, saying arena pvp is just like battlegrounds.....big disagree. First, the combat itself works way to different for that comparison and second these battlegrounds are way more interactive than those I have seen in other mmos.
I personally think the rewards are fine especially for WvW. Since WvW is a server effort and since how the whole game is connect via the trading post, giving a substantial reward for WvW will end up causing more problems down the line. The really isn't anything that can be worth giving without making it severily unfair for the losing servers.
WvW exist purely for the fun of it just like every aspect of the game, the same goes for SPvP, if you feel that you need something more then you should probably reconsider your gaming choices.
Moving on:
It never amazes me how pathetic gaming journalist are, gaming and to some degree technology journalis are the only places where these "journalist" can get away with being the most uninformed bunch. There is nothing wrong with no liking something but you should at least do some research before going into a topic. And gaming one of the 2 places a journalist only skill is the fact that they are SEMI-attractive.
I don't really get why people need extra rewards to play a part of a game. The first cut is: Is it fun? Whether or not you get good loot or xp from certain aspects of the game, this is always the most important factor. Secondly: Aren't the rewards that are built in good enough? The satisfaction of "pwning the noob" or taking the keep should be pretty much enough. Why do you need more? Thirdly: In PvP and WvWvW you still get XP, skill unlocking, etc. That's not enough?
Also, I beg to differ about GW1 not having enough incentive. I thoroughly enjoyed getting titles in game. I also enjoyed working to get the weapons and armour to display in my HoM. So there is plenty to strive for in game, I think. Especially if you take your time and not rush to finish in record time. I think that's where the problem is....many gamers are more interesting in "finishing" the game than actually playing it.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
I do agree that rewards for both WvW and arena pvp should be looked at more carefully. I also think gates might need a bit more tweaking, but that could be also that we didn't find more effective ways to bust in to keeps. Now, saying arena pvp is just like battlegrounds.....big disagree. First, the combat itself works way to different for that comparison and second these battlegrounds are way more interactive than those I have seen in other mmos.
I personally think the rewards are fine especially for WvW. Since WvW is a server effort and since how the whole game is connect via the trading post, giving a substantial reward for WvW will end up causing more problems down the line. The really isn't anything that can be worth giving without making it severily unfair for the losing servers.
WvW exist purely for the fun of it just like every aspect of the game, the same goes for SPvP, if you feel that you need something more then you should probably reconsider your gaming choices.
Moving on:
It never amazes me how pathetic gaming journalist are, gaming and to some degree technology journalis are the only places where these "journalist" can get away with being the most uninformed bunch. There is nothing wrong with no liking something but you should at least do some research before going into a topic. And gaming one of the 2 places a journalist only skill is the fact that they are SEMI-attractive.
WvW can give out more rewards and make it more of an alternative to progression. Please keep in mind what Anet has already said. WvW is meant to be an unbalanced mess....the only "balancing" going on in there is matchmaking between servers.
Arena PvP didn't seem to give out any reward at all, and it could give out at the very least money. Even in GW1 you would get points to spend on skills. It doesn't have to be a big reward but at the very least some reward. Although its good they have achivements for it already. So Im not too worried about Arena PvP since its really there for fun, not an alternate progression route.
I do think rewards in WvWvW need looking at, though not quite the way she brings them up. Mainly I found it a huge problem that you or your party members need to get the actual kill shot (as in the finisher from downed state or be the last one to do damage as the person dies in downed state) which is counter intuitive considering PvE works on whomever contributes. Not to mention it makes people run up and try to land finishers even when it's not the most productive thing to do. A player who can't do a lot of damage from ranged and is unable to get in range will wind up getting no or little rewards throughout a long keep seige.
That's one of the problems with WvWvW rewards. The other is the fact you then need to loot corpses after you finish them to get rewards like badges. Again, running up and looting is often counter productive to the goal of WvWvW as it leaves you vulnerable and probably not doing much else while you are doing it. It doesn't make sense that things like karma, EXP, and gold with event finishes, while badges aren't a currency that is rewarded automatically when you get kills in WvWvW and through events. If you are manning a seige weapon you can't run around looting corpses without dropping your use of the seige weapon.
There are lots of other issues WvWvW has right now. Communication to your team doesn't work and local is bugged to be shared with everyone (including the opposing servers). You can wind up having spent a fortune on Seige weapons only to have PUGs ninja loot them from you once they are created and wind up misusing them, for example you could waste a gold on a Seige Golem only to have a PUG have it destroyed by oil in a few seconds with it doing minimal damage to a keep door. There is also an utter lack of a tutorial and many players going into WvWvW have no idea what to do, what supply is for, and how it works. This is another reason why people are so misinformed about WvWvW and the game in general is there is so little information in game right now about how to do things. There is no proper tutorial. Not even a set of quick tips that pop up (which is a horrible way of doing a tutorial) when you first do actions most of the time.
Arena PvP didn't seem to give out any reward at all, and it could give out at the very least money. Even in GW1 you would get points to spend on skills. It doesn't have to be a big reward but at the very least some reward. Although its good they have achivements for it already. So Im not too worried about Arena PvP since its really there for fun, not an alternate progression route.
Arena PvP gives out Glory which is spent for cosmetic rewards such as new armor sets that are specific to Conquest mode. I do agree that a few silver for the games wouldn't hurt or something that gives you progression (even if it's just cosmetic) outside of Conquest and the Mists area.
I do find it odd Pokket plays League of Legends and isn't complaining about spending an hour in game there for an IP reward that is maybe 1/24th of a new champion purchase at best. WvWvW rewards even more than that. You don't play League of Legends for the rewards though, you play for fun which I think is a perfectly good reason to play both Conquest and WvWvW.
Wow invented the word endgame. In real rPGs it doesnt exist. MMORPGs should just be RPGs that allow other players to play with u. When people cry about 'endgame" they show their slave mentality to the wow game model. THey have so little concept of what an RPG is, that they use words that dont exist in the father genre.
The word "endgame" was first used in EQ. But I think guilds like FoH, Afterlife, Legacy of Steel and others invented it. If SOE used it it was later...
Dear OP, thats the truth about the game that nobady want to see. Playing Just for fun doesnt work in a MMO, any War and Daoc Veteran can tell you that. Like i said before, after 1 week of non-stop playtime, people will find for themself the problems that the game have.
Arena PvP didn't seem to give out any reward at all, and it could give out at the very least money. Even in GW1 you would get points to spend on skills. It doesn't have to be a big reward but at the very least some reward. Although its good they have achivements for it already. So Im not too worried about Arena PvP since its really there for fun, not an alternate progression route.
Arena PvP gives out Glory which is spent for cosmetic rewards such as new armor sets that are specific to Conquest mode. I do agree that a few silver for the games wouldn't hurt or something that gives you progression (even if it's just cosmetic) outside of Conquest and the Mists area.
I do find it odd Pokket plays League of Legends and isn't complaining about spending an hour in game there for an IP reward that is maybe 1/24th of a new champion purchase at best. WvWvW rewards even more than that. You don't play League of Legends for the rewards though, you play for fun which I think is a perfectly good reason to play both Conquest and WvWvW.
Awesome, thanks for that clarification. Achivements is also something they have going on.
I couldn't help but notice that she never really aims anything in her video. The only thing she aims is her AoE, everything else is just tab target and mostly just spamming her 1 key.
And every class getting the same dodge is pretty lame, but oh well.
All the particle effects in the big fights were cool though !
I prefer chasing fun over chasing stats. So as long as the game delivers fun I will continue to play. If people want to chase stats there are other games that do that fine, but I wish they would get over the stat thing and just play the game for fun. I used to be a stat addict, but getting over chasing that carrot made games so much more enjoyable.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
you watched the vid and what you came away with was you dont get rewarded enough? How about the amount of fun the player gets from it, is this not reward enough for money spent. When i pay to go to the cinema i dont expect to be rewarded with a back massage from the manager while i watch a film i wanna see.
Yes, from past experiences i have learned that rewards are necessary to keep most of the MMO community playing for more then a few hundred hours.
(your cinema comparisson goes wrong, as vissiting a cinema only takes about 2 hours, which still got you intoo the initial phase of the process. Now compare it with a Harry Potter movie marathon with all the HP movies showing one after the other, is that still enough fun to keep most of the people seated for like 20 hours?)
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
how do we know how long it is going to take for me to get all the end game gear i need?
There is no real endgame gear in GW2. You will find out when you are max level.
Ah, ha ha ha ha ha... Wrong. MMOs are social experiences, not end-game experiences. The number one driver of wWhat makes people quit is the lack of quality social experience.
That's why so many behavioral psychologists are asked to analyze games by Blizzard, CCP, etc. They need to understand WHY people stay and why they quit. And the number one reason they quit is social network breakdown.
That's why SWTOR is crashing. The social network never came together. They didn't understand it. They didn't encourage it. They just made thier on-line massively single-player game without doing anything to promote and sustain a large, integrated social network. When people get tired of the story, they just leave. There is no reason to stay.
That is one of the things that worry me about GW2, I have read numerous accounts were DE were done without any social interaction.
In my experience, it would be true to say that many of them are completed without chatting, but that doesn't mean it's not a social experience, in my books at least. Cooperation is by its very nature, social, and these events are all about cooperation. A lot of talk-talk isn't necessary while an event is going on, although there will often be some chatter afterwards. And it's not is if you're being muted. You can always be talkative if you like. Anyone who is receptive will join you. And I find the chances of that happening increase if you stay together for more than one event.
The best way to make friends is by facta, non verba -- deeds, not words. After all, fending off a centaur horde together makes for a great ice breaker.
I do think rewards in WvWvW need looking at, though not quite the way she brings them up. Mainly I found it a huge problem that you or your party members need to get the actual kill shot (as in the finisher from downed state or be the last one to do damage as the person dies in downed state) which is counter intuitive considering PvE works on whomever contributes. Not to mention it makes people run up and try to land finishers even when it's not the most productive thing to do. A player who can't do a lot of damage from ranged and is unable to get in range will wind up getting no or little rewards throughout a long keep seige.
That's one of the problems with WvWvW rewards. The other is the fact you then need to loot corpses after you finish them to get rewards like badges. Again, running up and looting is often counter productive to the goal of WvWvW as it leaves you vulnerable and probably not doing much else while you are doing it. It doesn't make sense that things like karma, EXP, and gold with event finishes, while badges aren't a currency that is rewarded automatically when you get kills in WvWvW and through events. If you are manning a seige weapon you can't run around looting corpses without dropping your use of the seige weapon.
There are lots of other issues WvWvW has right now. Communication to your team doesn't work and local is bugged to be shared with everyone (including the opposing servers). You can wind up having spent a fortune on Seige weapons only to have PUGs ninja loot them from you once they are created and wind up misusing them, for example you could waste a gold on a Seige Golem only to have a PUG have it destroyed by oil in a few seconds with it doing minimal damage to a keep door. There is also an utter lack of a tutorial and many players going into WvWvW have no idea what to do, what supply is for, and how it works. This is another reason why people are so misinformed about WvWvW and the game in general is there is so little information in game right now about how to do things. There is no proper tutorial. Not even a set of quick tips that pop up (which is a horrible way of doing a tutorial) when you first do actions most of the time.
Are these issues, especially the first 2 you mention, known and being worked on? Or are they actually made to function that way intentionally and are not considered issues by ANet?
I myself don't need rewards to play a game or PvP for that matter but I can see some people like to have them. The question is what kind of rewards because it seems to me people want it to be a gear gind which kills games faster than anything else.
I myself am rewarded by completed the hard content and being a successful play in the game because skill will come to play in this game.
I do agree that rewards for both WvW and arena pvp should be looked at more carefully. I also think gates might need a bit more tweaking, but that could be also that we didn't find more effective ways to bust in to keeps. Now, saying arena pvp is just like battlegrounds.....big disagree. First, the combat itself works way to different for that comparison and second these battlegrounds are way more interactive than those I have seen in other mmos.
I personally think the rewards are fine especially for WvW. Since WvW is a server effort and since how the whole game is connect via the trading post, giving a substantial reward for WvW will end up causing more problems down the line. The really isn't anything that can be worth giving without making it severily unfair for the losing servers.
WvW exist purely for the fun of it just like every aspect of the game, the same goes for SPvP, if you feel that you need something more then you should probably reconsider your gaming choices.
Moving on:
It never amazes me how pathetic gaming journalist are, gaming and to some degree technology journalis are the only places where these "journalist" can get away with being the most uninformed bunch. There is nothing wrong with no liking something but you should at least do some research before going into a topic. And gaming one of the 2 places a journalist only skill is the fact that they are SEMI-attractive.
WvW can give out more rewards and make it more of an alternative to progression. Please keep in mind what Anet has already said. WvW is meant to be an unbalanced mess....the only "balancing" going on in there is matchmaking between servers.
Arena PvP didn't seem to give out any reward at all, and it could give out at the very least money. Even in GW1 you would get points to spend on skills. It doesn't have to be a big reward but at the very least some reward. Although its good they have achivements for it already. So Im not too worried about Arena PvP since its really there for fun, not an alternate progression route.
The game mode is meant to be an unbalance mess BUT the rewards are not meant to be an unbalance mess. WvW is meant to something like, if you win awesome here is some minor bonus to help you, if you lose oh well that's cool.
So if Arenanet is truelly listening, they should also listen to this criticisme and not say its not going to happen.
First, ArenaNet isn't copying DAoC, a lot of them designed RvR in the first place or were part of the original Mythic crew. Don't forget, people change jobs over the years and many people jumped ship from Mythic when EA came into the equation.
Okay second point, let me just say that this thread is pretty clearly written by someone who hasn't visited the Official Guild Wars 2 forums, all of your points are old news and have already been addressed by the development team as part of the ongoing process of development and change. Mike Ferguson, system designer over at ArenaNet spent hours and hours reading and commenting on the upcoming major changes to the WvW based on to the massive amount of feedback and playing done over the BWE. Without any doubt, last weekend was WvW's first real test.
1. Rewards in WvW. There are currently lots of rewards for playing WvW, the problem right now is that they are not fluid enough. Mike has announced they are going to be making major adjustments to the flow of PVP and how the looting system works. The unique points/currency called Medals of Honor, was difficult to accquire because it required you get the Kill Blow against players or NPCs. Medals of Honor were not frequent and also were difficult to get during major battles and sieges when players were on walls and not able to get their hard earned loot. Mike has talking about how they are going to working on a new system to improve the feeling of reward in WvW.
2. Names in WvW. Mike stated that one of the major flaws with RvR was that names would appear over people's heads and they would be singled out and mass targeted. Also, he stated that people would try to make a name for themselves and try to become an army of one. He stated that Names in WvW will never happen, they realized it didn't work in DAoC and wanted to ensure that people are part of a team unit. Guild Tags do show up however, so it's not a complete mystery. It's still possible to make a name for your Guild, instead of just you as a single person.
In personal reflection, I don't mind either. I spent a hour fighting one person in various locations around the map and in a 1v1 battle. Never knew the persons name, but we fought several times. I know it was the same person because of the equipment and their unique choice of colors upon that equipment.
3. Doors take too long to put down. My Guild Alliance, which spent pretty much 100% of the BWE in WvW, could drop doors in roughly 30 seconds with 2-3 Battering Rams and 1 Catapult or 1 Trebuchet. this equipment was cheap and readily available, not to mention easy to construct with a lot of people working together. If the door was secured, we turned our attention to the walls which took about 1 minute more to drop. These doors were not reinforced either, if they were it often took another minute to drop them. If the doors were defended, we just moved on to a new target, another door, or another wall. There was always a way in, and as long as you have a strong team it never takes long. If the door is well defended, then getting in could take hours of work, but at this point your force shouldn't be laying siege to a heavily defended door without good reason -- like doing it as a distraction.
4. Read the Guild Wars 2 Official forums. If you don't own the game, then ask one of us whether or not they are actually making adjustments. Remember, last weekend was WvW's first real run -- they are making a lot of changes and need time to impliment them.
I do agree that rewards for both WvW and arena pvp should be looked at more carefully. I also think gates might need a bit more tweaking, but that could be also that we didn't find more effective ways to bust in to keeps. Now, saying arena pvp is just like battlegrounds.....big disagree. First, the combat itself works way to different for that comparison and second these battlegrounds are way more interactive than those I have seen in other mmos.
I personally think the rewards are fine especially for WvW. Since WvW is a server effort and since how the whole game is connect via the trading post, giving a substantial reward for WvW will end up causing more problems down the line. The really isn't anything that can be worth giving without making it severily unfair for the losing servers.
WvW exist purely for the fun of it just like every aspect of the game, the same goes for SPvP, if you feel that you need something more then you should probably reconsider your gaming choices.
Moving on:
It never amazes me how pathetic gaming journalist are, gaming and to some degree technology journalis are the only places where these "journalist" can get away with being the most uninformed bunch. There is nothing wrong with no liking something but you should at least do some research before going into a topic. And gaming one of the 2 places a journalist only skill is the fact that they are SEMI-attractive.
WvW can give out more rewards and make it more of an alternative to progression. Please keep in mind what Anet has already said. WvW is meant to be an unbalanced mess....the only "balancing" going on in there is matchmaking between servers.
Arena PvP didn't seem to give out any reward at all, and it could give out at the very least money. Even in GW1 you would get points to spend on skills. It doesn't have to be a big reward but at the very least some reward. Although its good they have achivements for it already. So Im not too worried about Arena PvP since its really there for fun, not an alternate progression route.
The game mode is meant to be an unbalance mess BUT the rewards are not meant to be an unbalance mess. WvW is meant to something like, if you win awesome here is some minor bonus to help you, if you lose oh well that's cool.
When anet says it can be an alternate progression route its not just something to give you minimal progression.
So if Arenanet is truelly listening, they should also listen to this criticisme and not say its not going to happen.
First, ArenaNet isn't copying DAoC, a lot of them designed RvR in the first place or were part of the original Mythic crew. Don't forget, people change jobs over the years and many people jumped ship from Mythic when EA came into the equation.
Okay second point, let me just say that this thread is pretty clearly written by someone who hasn't visited the Official Guild Wars 2 forums, all of your points are old news and have already been addressed by the development team as part of the ongoing process of development and change. Mike Ferguson, system designer over at ArenaNet spent hours and hours reading and commenting on the upcoming major changes to the WvW based on to the massive amount of feedback and playing done over the BWE. Without any doubt, last weekend was WvW's first real test.
1. Rewards in WvW. There are currently lots of rewards for playing WvW, the problem right now is that they are not fluid enough. Mike has announced they are going to be making major adjustments to the flow of PVP and how the looting system works. The unique points/currency called Medals of Honor, was difficult to accquire because it required you get the Kill Blow against players or NPCs. Medals of Honor were not frequent and also were difficult to get during major battles and sieges when players were on walls and not able to get their hard earned loot. Mike has talking about how they are going to working on a new system to improve the feeling of reward in WvW.
2. Names in WvW. Mike stated that one of the major flaws with RvR was that names would appear over people's heads and they would be singled out and mass targeted. Also, he stated that people would try to make a name for themselves and try to become an army of one. He stated that Names in WvW will never happen, they realized it didn't work in DAoC and wanted to ensure that people are part of a team unit. Guild Tags do show up however, so it's not a complete mystery. It's still possible to make a name for your Guild, instead of just you as a single person.
In personal reflection, I don't mind either. I spent a hour fighting one person in various locations around the map and in a 1v1 battle. Never knew the persons name, but we fought several times. I know it was the same person because of the equipment and their unique choice of colors upon that equipment.
3. Doors take too long to put down. My Guild Alliance, which spent pretty much 100% of the BWE in WvW, could drop doors in roughly 30 seconds with 2-3 Battering Rams and 1 Catapult or 1 Trebuchet. this equipment was cheap and readily available, not to mention easy to construct with a lot of people working together. If the door was secured, we turned our attention to the walls which took about 1 minute more to drop. These doors were not reinforced either, if they were it often took another minute to drop them. If the doors were defended, we just moved on to a new target, another door, or another wall. There was always a way in, and as long as you have a strong team it never takes long. If the door is well defended, then getting in could take hours of work, but at this point your force shouldn't be laying siege to a heavily defended door without good reason -- like doing it as a distraction.
4. Read the Guild Wars 2 Official forums. If you don't own the game, then ask one of us whether or not they are actually making adjustments. Remember, last weekend was WvW's first real run -- they are making a lot of changes and need time to impliment them.
I don't remember, could you see enemy Guild Tags in WvW?
you watched the vid and what you came away with was you dont get rewarded enough? How about the amount of fun the player gets from it, is this not reward enough for money spent. When i pay to go to the cinema i dont expect to be rewarded with a back massage from the manager while i watch a film i wanna see.
Yes, from past experiences i have learned that rewards are necessary to keep most of the MMO community playing for more then a few hundred hours.
(your cinema comparisson goes wrong, as vissiting a cinema only takes about 2 hours, which still got you intoo the initial phase of the process. Now compare it with a Harry Potter movie marathon with all the HP movies showing one after the other, is that still enough fun to keep most of the people seated for like 20 hours?)
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
how do we know how long it is going to take for me to get all the end game gear i need?
There is no real endgame gear in GW2. You will find out when you are max level.
Ah, ha ha ha ha ha... Wrong. MMOs are social experiences, not end-game experiences. The number one driver of wWhat makes people quit is the lack of quality social experience.
That's why so many behavioral psychologists are asked to analyze games by Blizzard, CCP, etc. They need to understand WHY people stay and why they quit. And the number one reason they quit is social network breakdown.
That's why SWTOR is crashing. The social network never came together. They didn't understand it. They didn't encourage it. They just made thier on-line massively single-player game without doing anything to promote and sustain a large, integrated social network. When people get tired of the story, they just leave. There is no reason to stay.
That is one of the things that worry me about GW2, I have read numerous accounts were DE were done without any social interaction.
In my experience, it would be true to say that many of them are completed without chatting, but that doesn't mean it's not a social experience, in my books at least. Cooperation is by its very nature, social, and these events are all about cooperation. A lot of talk-talk isn't necessary while an event is going on, although there will often be some chatter afterwards. And it's not is if you're being muted. You can always be talkative if you like. Anyone who is receptive will join you. And I find the chances of that happening increase if you stay together for more than one event.
The best way to make friends is by facta, non verba -- deeds, not words. After all, fending off a centaur horde together makes for a great ice breaker.
From my experience I tend to block all the talkers because generally they don't say anything relevant. Most of the people i met was the result of just playing with them and they noticing something about me whether it was my skill or whether I helped them out. So i agree, being social has little to do with talking, the more a person talks the more I assume that person is an idiot, since they generally have nothign of value to say.
Also, if you can find time to talk during an event in guild wars 2, you were probably not playing the game properly. I personally had my hands full especially since I was playing a melee mesmer or elementalist, which allowed for very little downtime while in combat to talk.
1. Rewards in WvW. There are currently lots of rewards for playing WvW, the problem right now is that they are not fluid enough. Mike has announced they are going to be making major adjustments to the flow of PVP and how the looting system works. The unique points/currency called Medals of Honor, was difficult to accquire because it required you get the Kill Blow against players or NPCs. Medals of Honor were not frequent and also were difficult to get during major battles and sieges when players were on walls and not able to get their hard earned loot. Mike has talking about how they are going to working on a new system to improve the feeling of reward in WvW.
This makes me happy to here that they are looking at adjusting this. It was one of my major issues with BWE along with Overflow seperation which is also being fixed.
The worst thing about mmorpg's is the grind. Do you really need a reward to keep playing? If so, then the game isn't fun and you should quit. Guild Wars 1 had very little grind and kept players for a very long time because A) it was fun, and you could try out a lot of different builds to keep things interesting.
The sign of a great game is that people will do things in it simply for fun. In structured pvp you can already use whatever you want. We don't need to start making WvW into some sort of gear grind though. You should fight for your realm, not for your self.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
I don't remember, could you see enemy Guild Tags in WvW?
Yes, you could. I remember seeing a bunch of GOONs invading one of our keeps. It kind of makes sense in war you'd have an idea of what army is attacking you, but not the individual people of the army itself.
I do agree that rewards for both WvW and arena pvp should be looked at more carefully. I also think gates might need a bit more tweaking, but that could be also that we didn't find more effective ways to bust in to keeps. Now, saying arena pvp is just like battlegrounds.....big disagree. First, the combat itself works way to different for that comparison and second these battlegrounds are way more interactive than those I have seen in other mmos.
I personally think the rewards are fine especially for WvW. Since WvW is a server effort and since how the whole game is connect via the trading post, giving a substantial reward for WvW will end up causing more problems down the line. The really isn't anything that can be worth giving without making it severily unfair for the losing servers.
WvW exist purely for the fun of it just like every aspect of the game, the same goes for SPvP, if you feel that you need something more then you should probably reconsider your gaming choices.
Moving on:
It never amazes me how pathetic gaming journalist are, gaming and to some degree technology journalis are the only places where these "journalist" can get away with being the most uninformed bunch. There is nothing wrong with no liking something but you should at least do some research before going into a topic. And gaming one of the 2 places a journalist only skill is the fact that they are SEMI-attractive.
WvW can give out more rewards and make it more of an alternative to progression. Please keep in mind what Anet has already said. WvW is meant to be an unbalanced mess....the only "balancing" going on in there is matchmaking between servers.
Arena PvP didn't seem to give out any reward at all, and it could give out at the very least money. Even in GW1 you would get points to spend on skills. It doesn't have to be a big reward but at the very least some reward. Although its good they have achivements for it already. So Im not too worried about Arena PvP since its really there for fun, not an alternate progression route.
The game mode is meant to be an unbalance mess BUT the rewards are not meant to be an unbalance mess. WvW is meant to something like, if you win awesome here is some minor bonus to help you, if you lose oh well that's cool.
When anet says it can be an alternate progression route its not just something to give you minimal progression.
And WvW is an alternate progression route, you can level , gain gear and skill points(wasnt in beta). You know what, I am gonna bow out because I get the feeling we are talking about 2 different things.
I do agree that rewards for both WvW and arena pvp should be looked at more carefully. I also think gates might need a bit more tweaking, but that could be also that we didn't find more effective ways to bust in to keeps. Now, saying arena pvp is just like battlegrounds.....big disagree. First, the combat itself works way to different for that comparison and second these battlegrounds are way more interactive than those I have seen in other mmos.
I personally think the rewards are fine especially for WvW. Since WvW is a server effort and since how the whole game is connect via the trading post, giving a substantial reward for WvW will end up causing more problems down the line. The really isn't anything that can be worth giving without making it severily unfair for the losing servers.
WvW exist purely for the fun of it just like every aspect of the game, the same goes for SPvP, if you feel that you need something more then you should probably reconsider your gaming choices.
Moving on:
It never amazes me how pathetic gaming journalist are, gaming and to some degree technology journalis are the only places where these "journalist" can get away with being the most uninformed bunch. There is nothing wrong with no liking something but you should at least do some research before going into a topic. And gaming one of the 2 places a journalist only skill is the fact that they are SEMI-attractive.
WvW can give out more rewards and make it more of an alternative to progression. Please keep in mind what Anet has already said. WvW is meant to be an unbalanced mess....the only "balancing" going on in there is matchmaking between servers.
Arena PvP didn't seem to give out any reward at all, and it could give out at the very least money. Even in GW1 you would get points to spend on skills. It doesn't have to be a big reward but at the very least some reward. Although its good they have achivements for it already. So Im not too worried about Arena PvP since its really there for fun, not an alternate progression route.
The game mode is meant to be an unbalance mess BUT the rewards are not meant to be an unbalance mess. WvW is meant to something like, if you win awesome here is some minor bonus to help you, if you lose oh well that's cool.
When anet says it can be an alternate progression route its not just something to give you minimal progression.
And WvW is an alternate progression route, you can level , gain gear and skill points(wasnt in beta). You know what, I am gonna bow out because I get the feeling we are talking about 2 different things.
It is, I understand that. But its not effective at its current state.
I don't remember, could you see enemy Guild Tags in WvW?
Yes, you could. I remember seeing a bunch of GOONs invading one of our keeps. It kind of makes sense in war you'd have an idea of what army is attacking you, but not the individual people of the army itself.
I do remember seeing the Anet icon next to the employees. Lol poor guys, marked for death.....
Finally someone that looks past the first experience.
Not having any real rewards will make many people leave the game. Maybe Arenanet doesn't really care for that as they allready sold their boxes, but most players will care. In DAoC PvP many people started complaining about their WvW (RvR) after a few weeks as they realised their wasn't any personal reward for playing RvR. then after a few more weeks people started actually leaving because of that. Loosing subs made the DAoC crew that they actually needed things to reward people personal experience for PvPing. And they came up with the realmpoints system. A very grindy system in its core, that didn't feel grindy because the PVP was that much fun. With realmpoints you could buy abbilities and you got titles. Most important is that the system did not unballance PvP, as the first few points (up to about 40%) where easy atainable.
On top of that another point of proof is that when reaching max level in GW and finishing the story, many many people left the game because they felt like not being rewarded for their playtime. I saw some graphics that most of the players left after finishing the Story in PvE between 1 month and 3 months of buying the game. And they almost all left because there werent any rewards. Maybe i am one of those that dares to admit it, but i do like the taste of carrots on a stick. (as long as progression is kept to a minimum and not overdone like in WoW) This goes for PvP and PVE. if people leave the game, this will be the reason number one, because most of the gaemplay is just awesome. Minor rewards can work without unballancing the game, DAoC prooved that pre atlantis expansion. and getting 5 realmpoints feels totally different then geting 53 cupper.
Have you ever heard of an FPS? It's a whole genre built around killing people with no reward except their being dead and your winnning/losing a match. Most recently I have put about 250 hrs into SMNC. I dropped about $20 at the start so I have no need to really unlock anything significant. Yet, I still keep playing. I wonder why? It's definitely not for any in-game reward.
People played shooters for years long before they ever implemented things like progression systems, xp, and unlocks. Just because the RPG genre has been so tied to these systems does not mean it's the way it has to be. I don't play games to get rewarded. I'm not a rat in a Skinner box pressing a button for a pellet of food. I play games to have fun. Fun is the reward. Which you could then relate back to that rat in the Skinner box but that's besides the point....
Comments
I personally think the rewards are fine especially for WvW. Since WvW is a server effort and since how the whole game is connect via the trading post, giving a substantial reward for WvW will end up causing more problems down the line. The really isn't anything that can be worth giving without making it severily unfair for the losing servers.
WvW exist purely for the fun of it just like every aspect of the game, the same goes for SPvP, if you feel that you need something more then you should probably reconsider your gaming choices.
Moving on:
It never amazes me how pathetic gaming journalist are, gaming and to some degree technology journalis are the only places where these "journalist" can get away with being the most uninformed bunch. There is nothing wrong with no liking something but you should at least do some research before going into a topic. And gaming one of the 2 places a journalist only skill is the fact that they are SEMI-attractive.
I don't really get why people need extra rewards to play a part of a game. The first cut is: Is it fun? Whether or not you get good loot or xp from certain aspects of the game, this is always the most important factor. Secondly: Aren't the rewards that are built in good enough? The satisfaction of "pwning the noob" or taking the keep should be pretty much enough. Why do you need more? Thirdly: In PvP and WvWvW you still get XP, skill unlocking, etc. That's not enough?
Also, I beg to differ about GW1 not having enough incentive. I thoroughly enjoyed getting titles in game. I also enjoyed working to get the weapons and armour to display in my HoM. So there is plenty to strive for in game, I think. Especially if you take your time and not rush to finish in record time. I think that's where the problem is....many gamers are more interesting in "finishing" the game than actually playing it.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
WvW can give out more rewards and make it more of an alternative to progression. Please keep in mind what Anet has already said. WvW is meant to be an unbalanced mess....the only "balancing" going on in there is matchmaking between servers.
Arena PvP didn't seem to give out any reward at all, and it could give out at the very least money. Even in GW1 you would get points to spend on skills. It doesn't have to be a big reward but at the very least some reward. Although its good they have achivements for it already. So Im not too worried about Arena PvP since its really there for fun, not an alternate progression route.
I do think rewards in WvWvW need looking at, though not quite the way she brings them up. Mainly I found it a huge problem that you or your party members need to get the actual kill shot (as in the finisher from downed state or be the last one to do damage as the person dies in downed state) which is counter intuitive considering PvE works on whomever contributes. Not to mention it makes people run up and try to land finishers even when it's not the most productive thing to do. A player who can't do a lot of damage from ranged and is unable to get in range will wind up getting no or little rewards throughout a long keep seige.
That's one of the problems with WvWvW rewards. The other is the fact you then need to loot corpses after you finish them to get rewards like badges. Again, running up and looting is often counter productive to the goal of WvWvW as it leaves you vulnerable and probably not doing much else while you are doing it. It doesn't make sense that things like karma, EXP, and gold with event finishes, while badges aren't a currency that is rewarded automatically when you get kills in WvWvW and through events. If you are manning a seige weapon you can't run around looting corpses without dropping your use of the seige weapon.
There are lots of other issues WvWvW has right now. Communication to your team doesn't work and local is bugged to be shared with everyone (including the opposing servers). You can wind up having spent a fortune on Seige weapons only to have PUGs ninja loot them from you once they are created and wind up misusing them, for example you could waste a gold on a Seige Golem only to have a PUG have it destroyed by oil in a few seconds with it doing minimal damage to a keep door. There is also an utter lack of a tutorial and many players going into WvWvW have no idea what to do, what supply is for, and how it works. This is another reason why people are so misinformed about WvWvW and the game in general is there is so little information in game right now about how to do things. There is no proper tutorial. Not even a set of quick tips that pop up (which is a horrible way of doing a tutorial) when you first do actions most of the time.
Arena PvP gives out Glory which is spent for cosmetic rewards such as new armor sets that are specific to Conquest mode. I do agree that a few silver for the games wouldn't hurt or something that gives you progression (even if it's just cosmetic) outside of Conquest and the Mists area.
I do find it odd Pokket plays League of Legends and isn't complaining about spending an hour in game there for an IP reward that is maybe 1/24th of a new champion purchase at best. WvWvW rewards even more than that. You don't play League of Legends for the rewards though, you play for fun which I think is a perfectly good reason to play both Conquest and WvWvW.
The word "endgame" was first used in EQ. But I think guilds like FoH, Afterlife, Legacy of Steel and others invented it. If SOE used it it was later...
Dear OP, thats the truth about the game that nobady want to see. Playing Just for fun doesnt work in a MMO, any War and Daoc Veteran can tell you that. Like i said before, after 1 week of non-stop playtime, people will find for themself the problems that the game have.
Awesome, thanks for that clarification. Achivements is also something they have going on.
I couldn't help but notice that she never really aims anything in her video. The only thing she aims is her AoE, everything else is just tab target and mostly just spamming her 1 key.
And every class getting the same dodge is pretty lame, but oh well.
All the particle effects in the big fights were cool though !
I prefer chasing fun over chasing stats. So as long as the game delivers fun I will continue to play. If people want to chase stats there are other games that do that fine, but I wish they would get over the stat thing and just play the game for fun. I used to be a stat addict, but getting over chasing that carrot made games so much more enjoyable.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
In my experience, it would be true to say that many of them are completed without chatting, but that doesn't mean it's not a social experience, in my books at least. Cooperation is by its very nature, social, and these events are all about cooperation. A lot of talk-talk isn't necessary while an event is going on, although there will often be some chatter afterwards. And it's not is if you're being muted. You can always be talkative if you like. Anyone who is receptive will join you. And I find the chances of that happening increase if you stay together for more than one event.
The best way to make friends is by facta, non verba -- deeds, not words. After all, fending off a centaur horde together makes for a great ice breaker.
Are these issues, especially the first 2 you mention, known and being worked on? Or are they actually made to function that way intentionally and are not considered issues by ANet?
I myself don't need rewards to play a game or PvP for that matter but I can see some people like to have them. The question is what kind of rewards because it seems to me people want it to be a gear gind which kills games faster than anything else.
I myself am rewarded by completed the hard content and being a successful play in the game because skill will come to play in this game.
The game mode is meant to be an unbalance mess BUT the rewards are not meant to be an unbalance mess. WvW is meant to something like, if you win awesome here is some minor bonus to help you, if you lose oh well that's cool.
First, ArenaNet isn't copying DAoC, a lot of them designed RvR in the first place or were part of the original Mythic crew. Don't forget, people change jobs over the years and many people jumped ship from Mythic when EA came into the equation.
Okay second point, let me just say that this thread is pretty clearly written by someone who hasn't visited the Official Guild Wars 2 forums, all of your points are old news and have already been addressed by the development team as part of the ongoing process of development and change. Mike Ferguson, system designer over at ArenaNet spent hours and hours reading and commenting on the upcoming major changes to the WvW based on to the massive amount of feedback and playing done over the BWE. Without any doubt, last weekend was WvW's first real test.
1. Rewards in WvW. There are currently lots of rewards for playing WvW, the problem right now is that they are not fluid enough. Mike has announced they are going to be making major adjustments to the flow of PVP and how the looting system works. The unique points/currency called Medals of Honor, was difficult to accquire because it required you get the Kill Blow against players or NPCs. Medals of Honor were not frequent and also were difficult to get during major battles and sieges when players were on walls and not able to get their hard earned loot. Mike has talking about how they are going to working on a new system to improve the feeling of reward in WvW.
2. Names in WvW. Mike stated that one of the major flaws with RvR was that names would appear over people's heads and they would be singled out and mass targeted. Also, he stated that people would try to make a name for themselves and try to become an army of one. He stated that Names in WvW will never happen, they realized it didn't work in DAoC and wanted to ensure that people are part of a team unit. Guild Tags do show up however, so it's not a complete mystery. It's still possible to make a name for your Guild, instead of just you as a single person.
In personal reflection, I don't mind either. I spent a hour fighting one person in various locations around the map and in a 1v1 battle. Never knew the persons name, but we fought several times. I know it was the same person because of the equipment and their unique choice of colors upon that equipment.
3. Doors take too long to put down. My Guild Alliance, which spent pretty much 100% of the BWE in WvW, could drop doors in roughly 30 seconds with 2-3 Battering Rams and 1 Catapult or 1 Trebuchet. this equipment was cheap and readily available, not to mention easy to construct with a lot of people working together. If the door was secured, we turned our attention to the walls which took about 1 minute more to drop. These doors were not reinforced either, if they were it often took another minute to drop them. If the doors were defended, we just moved on to a new target, another door, or another wall. There was always a way in, and as long as you have a strong team it never takes long. If the door is well defended, then getting in could take hours of work, but at this point your force shouldn't be laying siege to a heavily defended door without good reason -- like doing it as a distraction.
4. Read the Guild Wars 2 Official forums. If you don't own the game, then ask one of us whether or not they are actually making adjustments. Remember, last weekend was WvW's first real run -- they are making a lot of changes and need time to impliment them.
When anet says it can be an alternate progression route its not just something to give you minimal progression.
I don't remember, could you see enemy Guild Tags in WvW?
From my experience I tend to block all the talkers because generally they don't say anything relevant. Most of the people i met was the result of just playing with them and they noticing something about me whether it was my skill or whether I helped them out. So i agree, being social has little to do with talking, the more a person talks the more I assume that person is an idiot, since they generally have nothign of value to say.
Also, if you can find time to talk during an event in guild wars 2, you were probably not playing the game properly. I personally had my hands full especially since I was playing a melee mesmer or elementalist, which allowed for very little downtime while in combat to talk.
This makes me happy to here that they are looking at adjusting this. It was one of my major issues with BWE along with Overflow seperation which is also being fixed.
The worst thing about mmorpg's is the grind. Do you really need a reward to keep playing? If so, then the game isn't fun and you should quit. Guild Wars 1 had very little grind and kept players for a very long time because A) it was fun, and
you could try out a lot of different builds to keep things interesting.
The sign of a great game is that people will do things in it simply for fun. In structured pvp you can already use whatever you want. We don't need to start making WvW into some sort of gear grind though. You should fight for your realm, not for your self.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Yes, you could. I remember seeing a bunch of GOONs invading one of our keeps. It kind of makes sense in war you'd have an idea of what army is attacking you, but not the individual people of the army itself.
And WvW is an alternate progression route, you can level , gain gear and skill points(wasnt in beta). You know what, I am gonna bow out because I get the feeling we are talking about 2 different things.
It is, I understand that. But its not effective at its current state.
Have you ever heard of an FPS? It's a whole genre built around killing people with no reward except their being dead and your winnning/losing a match. Most recently I have put about 250 hrs into SMNC. I dropped about $20 at the start so I have no need to really unlock anything significant. Yet, I still keep playing. I wonder why? It's definitely not for any in-game reward.
People played shooters for years long before they ever implemented things like progression systems, xp, and unlocks. Just because the RPG genre has been so tied to these systems does not mean it's the way it has to be. I don't play games to get rewarded. I'm not a rat in a Skinner box pressing a button for a pellet of food. I play games to have fun. Fun is the reward. Which you could then relate back to that rat in the Skinner box but that's besides the point....
Steam: Neph