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So where is the e-sport
Terrorizor
Member Posts: 326
in Guild Wars 2
I remember reading that Anet was trying to make GW2 into a game marked as an e-sport. I don't see any system revealed that would really embrace that. So have they abandoned that aspect or is there still more to be revealed?
Comments
The arena based pvp is their main venue. Of course it also encompases the combat itself. They said they won't have spectator mode for launch but they will have it later on.
More to be revealed
Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.
I believe your structured PvP will be the e-Sport but you are jumping the gun a bit given that it is in beta and far from launch. They don't even have all the structured PvP implemented yet.
So, what do you miss from their sPVP?
Tournaments weren't available for testing in beta.
you do know the game is in beta right?
That is what I was assuming. I keep getting into the imminent release perspective, like they are virtually done and it just is what it is. I guess I just need to be patient.
They're deliberately holding maps back. They don't want us to see everything before release.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Pretty much. It looks to my untrained eye like they've got at least two or three months of touch up ahead of them before they are release ready. I'd imagine any kind of tournament system would be one of the last pieces of the puzzle they'll slot it.
Actually these are real betas, not demos like what recent mmo betas have been. Just have to be a bit more patient.
Yes, patience Grasshopper!
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
I'll just quote what ArenaNet dev Jonathan Sharp had to say on the beta forums...
Hey guys!
I’d like to start off by saying THANK YOU SO MUCH for taking time out of your lives to play GW2 and give us feedback. You gave up the most valuable resource you have on this planet – your time. Due to that, I wanted to give you guys some of my time to show how much we appreciate your feedback and criticisms. Rather than posting individually to your multitudes of concerns, I tried to consolidate them into broad categories, and respond to them all here. I’ll do my best to try to cover as many issues as quickly as possible.
Feedback
We may not have time to reply to every thread (some of these, as you guys know, are many pages long), but we do read them all. We have many people (other designers, programmers, QA, artists) who read the forums, and we bounce emails around internally to talk about issues and ways to fix them. So even if you don’t see responses, please know that we’re reading your feedback and taking it into consideration! I get many messages/emails/people walking by my desk who say, “Hey Chap, did you see X thread? They had some good points.” Even if I can’t respond to everything in the PvP forums, please know that I still greatly appreciate your feedback!
Conquest as our only game type at launch:
We feel that Conquest will be just fine as our only game type at ship! It does a lot of things for us, and I’ll talk more about this in the esport section. But quickly, conquest allows new players to quickly understand how they can help their team. It also creates great tension that’s easy to follow for spectators/announcers. Our scoring system makes it very easy for observers to follow – with a quick glance up at the score screen, you know how close the game is.
The secondary mechanics really change the flow/feel of the map. Our maps all have different strategies/builds that work well on them, and we feel that the secondary/layout really show what conquest is – a strong backbone for our competitive play.
Organized pvp/playing with party:
I think a lot of people are enjoying our PvP, especially people who are new to PvP in general, or new to Guild Wars PvP. This is great! This weekend was a great test for us, and showed that it’s pretty welcoming to new players. But what else is there to the game type? This is where organized play/playing with organized teams/using voice communication/tournaments come in. Keep in mind that this weekend allowed you to join games and play with random teams in order to learn the game. Down the road you’ll be able to play in organized 5on5 squads, and that’s where the game will become deeper and more complex. You’ll need to start thinking about 5 person builds, class synergies, battlefield tactics, controlling secondary objectives and conquest points, etc. The game really changes when you start to play in a 5 person organized team vs. an opposing 5 person organized team. We want both to be fun! I’ll talk about this more in the Esport section.
Tournaments:
Tournaments will allow you to play with an organized 5 person team and see your results as you make your way through a tournament! We didn’t show them this weekend, but they’re something we think a lot of you will really enjoy. Sit tight, they’re coming!
Balance:
First off, balance is not yet final. A lot of us played with you this weekend (even if you didn’t know we were there) and many of us know how to deal with some situations that may not be salient to our newer players. The game is still evolving, even on a daily basis. Things are being added/tweaked/fixed/iterated upon EVERY DAY, and due to that, the game is still in flux. Let’s give an example – the Thief.
Thief. I saw a ton of posts this weekend about the Thief being OP (overpowered) and imba (imbalanced). The Thief can be very strong in some 1on1 matchups, and is weak in others. The Thief is also great in some team compositions, and very weak in others. We’ll keep an eye on Thief balance, but overall they are pretty balanced in the grand scope of things. There are many great Thieves in the office who still run from other classes if they’re well played. Once you learn how the Thief works, you learn how to counter them. As your knowledge base a community matures, you’ll learn how to deal with the Thief as well. Keep in mind you guys only played for a few days, you’ll get better every time you play it, and your view on what’s balanced/imbalanced may change in time.
Melee vs ranged. I also saw a lot of threads on melee vs ranged. I think ranged abilities are much easier to use than melee ones. It’s easier to pick a ranged class, back up a lot, and keep hitting your opponent….but…once a good melee character figures out how to disable your movement, dodge your attacks, and then get you in range, YOU ARE IN TROUBLE. There are many melee builds that destroy ranged builds, but the trick is getting there. Once melee players learn how to work together, you’ll see them dishing out a ton of pain on ranged foes. BUT, having said that, don’t worry – balance isn’t final, and we’re still tweaking things. We’ll keep an eye on the balance, as we always do.
Secondary mechanics. So ya. Svanir and Jotun on the forest map are a little easy. They were way too hard for a bit, and I toned them down, but with the data I collected this weekend, I can safely say they need to be bumped up a little bit. I’ll keep watching the balance on those guys, and the buff they give you, and make sure that they are hard to attain, but well worth the effort. They definitely still need some balance, so I’ll keep looking at that.
E-sport aspirations:
Let’s start this with a question: What does it take to make an Esport? I’d say you need a few things:
Fun. It has to be fun. This is pretty obvious, but let’s be sure to add it to the list. If people don’t enjoy your game, they won’t play it. And “fun” is different from player to player. We need to make a game (with the help of our community), that’s fun for new players as well as professionals. It can’t just be good for one or the other.
Accessible. It has to be something new players can get into. Magic the gathering. Starcraft. Counterstrike. Basketball. You need the entry level game to be accessible to new players, or you’ll lose your playerbase! You need to feed the pro levels with good players, who in turn come from the mid-tier level, who come from brand new players. And don’t forget, the only way that you get sponsored, if you’re an aspiring pro gamer, if it a LOT of people want to watch your game of choice. Because then they create a spectator base, and sponsors take notice, and want to sponsor athletes in those games. New player accessibility is CRUCIAL to an esport. League of Legends is a very newb-friendly game (mechanically) and it has had great success. That’s why there are so many sponsors…the spectator base is MASSIVE.
Easily understood. Capture points and secondary mechanics are pretty simple. That’s why we’ve based our competitive game on them. Now, once you start to play in 5on5 teams, you learn how far you can push the game, how much you can do with your team, and how skill is involved.
Skill cap. In order for a game to succeed, there has to be a skill cap where a good player can exert dominance over a lesser-skilled opponent. This weekend I saw my share of 1on2’s, 2on3’s, 2on4’s, etc. where skill > number of players. I know a lot of you guys are good at other games, but we have some people internally who have played hundreds of hours in PvP. I took my share of 1on3’s at a cap point this weekend, and I’m sure the guys on the other team thought something was broken. The point is – when skilled players start to make teams, and they start to play other organized teams, you’re going to see some amazing stuff. That’s where we’ll start to see players like SlayerS Boxer (SC), Heaton (CS), [Evil] (GW1), and Daigo (fighters).
Support. This is where we come in. We’ll keep balancing the game after ship. We’ll keep listening to feedback from players. As we make new maps, we’ll be listening to the community to see which of the existing maps they like the most, which maps they’d like to see in the future, etc. Our job doesn’t end once the game ships – in many ways, that’s when it starts.
So ya, that’s it. I need to get to work on stuff for our next weekend event! We learned a ton this weekend from watching you guys play, and from reading your posts. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR GIVING US some of your time, love, and effort. We’ll keep working to make the game the best we can, so that new players and pros alike are able to enjoy GW2. We are a company built on iteration, so now it’s time to do another iteration of PvP and balance! Thanks for supporting us and giving us so much constructive feedback to go on!
-Chaplan
that is exactly what I was wanting to read, tyvm.
Oh snap!
Whats riot gonna do?
Yes I played SWTOR.
Be happy about that statement? It's good to be "newb-friendly". A game should never be friendly only to hardcore players unless it's aiming to be niche.
^ Must be a newb
Yes I played SWTOR.
In addition to the info posted in this thread, Anet also said a while back in a blog post that they were looking into the possibility of creating a MOBA style battleground after release.
Don't know about e-sport but e-peen? Yes, some are bummed there will be no opponent names in WvW, so they will not get their e-peen fix. I am not one of them, but i hope for their best finding their game where their satisfaction will be met. High five!
U are prob right but.... there no points dicuss something that we can not know until the launch of the game or the developers news
Yup. What impresses me is when they set fingers to keyboards they demonstrate understanding of fundamental issues but still present them with humility. (Unlike some *cough* EA/BW *cough* that simply brag and seem to approach there player base with arrogance that borders on condescension)
That would be amazing
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
As a very competitive player (am transfering from the SC2 E-sport scene to GW2) and a caster of some games myself I was impressed and dissapointed with some things I saw, didn't yet see, and things I know about the E-sport scene of GW2.
If you are interested (which I believe most in this thread would be) than feel free to ask any questions I don't answer in the undoubtedly somewhat lengthy post below.
GW2 brings the first ever live combat scene to an E-sport level. Everything is, surprisingly, very, very well balanced. The two maps we got to play both held their advantages and disadvantages for certain playstyles while providing unique opertunities to gain the upper hand. All things good casters look for to make games exciting is there in spades. Balance spawns creativity in these games. If everything isn't finely tuned the whole scene crumbles. Thankfully that is not the case here. Some dicisions are far more micro than macro though which concerns me as an E-sport player and caster. Most of the dicisions are micro dicisions and not full on macro team efforts. At least they aren't seen as such yet. That will change as people begin casting the games and people realize how big of an impact some of the decisions make.
For example. Placing one man on the tribuchet. That is a micro decision that is often, as of now, made on the spot by individual players. I feel it may take a little while before people realize the significance of sacrificing a person to serve as map control.
The benefits of the tribuchet and the cons went largely unnoticed by most players. As an E-sport player I grasped the concept relatively quickly I believe. The tribuchet provides a sense of map control. The man on the tribuchet has visibility and can attack from range with a strong attack without real threat of being countered unless he is ambushed at the tower. People fail to use the system for its map control though. Instead of jumping in the tribuchet and spamming fire everywhere it should be used to attack and deter organized attacks on outposts that your team does not occupy.
The primary strategy we used was to keep a man on the tribuchet who would tell us where the opposing team was headed. We would go snipe out a point they were not at with our four guys. As their five guys went to snipe out one of our other points they would be harrassed by the tribuchet. They would then retreate or stay and all die due to the Tribuchet raneg and AoE thus, we have just successfully captured a point without being countered. It is, however a risk. If the man on the cannon doesn't know what he's doing you have sacrificed a team member for nothing.
The game is full of micro decisions like this that do not immediately yield themselves to the understanding that "wow, this team has just wen't all in. If this doesn't work, its over". That is, in large part, how many of the decisions are, which is great as an E-sport. It creates excitement, but only if the audience understands the significance.
Moving on. Some of us in the E-sport scene had the opinion that the players were blended into the crowd too much. These players mostly came from LoL where each man had a specific role. To them, their importance to the team was not as easily spotted. I can't disagree more with this sentiment though myself. It was 8 v 8 in the beta build but professionally the game will be 5v5. With only 5 people on your team each one is integral. People who came from SC2 teams seemed to understand this better as typically in SC2 it is somewhat similar team play. Nobody really has a specific THIS IS YOUR JOB but rather its your duty to adapt and be whatever your team needs you to be. Defense, harrassment, offense, you could cover all of these in ten minutes in SC2. Similarly here you do not begin the game with a clear role in structured PvP. You are part of the team and thus you will be whatever you are needed to be at the moment.
I will now get into the infrastructure of the PvP rather then the ingame goodness. Anet has a phenomenal structure setup which is one reason I am most excited to jump into the scene. Other large sponsors are already jumping on board such as IGN and Esport. Even local guilds like Team Legacy are sponsoring E-sport tournaments for a couple grand. The biggy is Anets tournament though, offering in about a quarter million in annual cash prize is not a bad way to start some buzz in the E-sport world.
This is huge for me. I've been waiting for an E-sport scene exactly like this for a long time. Currently the leagues work in this fassion: The teams that win enough matches in the weekly matches are submitted for the monthly tournament. The teams that win a monthly tournament are submitted into the annuel. The smi-finals of the annuel are flown out, by Anet, to compete for a quarter million in cash prize. The tourny is complete with 2nd and 3rd place prizes as well although those are not yet clear.
This support guarantee's an E-sports scene. It at least gaurantee's participation. Everybody wants a quarter million in cash prize money, so you don't have to worry about the scene drying up at all. Theres that kind of money involved you are going to attract serious players.
That being said, the game lacks proper casting tools RIGHT NOW. Anet has promised support eventually but many of us worry that support won't come soon enough. We need the ability to become a ghost camera and observe matches to live cast, we need replay support, mic support, the works. Otherwise you won't have an audience. To grow the game into a successful E-sport you need an audience, not just participants. The internal prizes, sponserships, and team interest gaurantee's a serious player-base. Without the viewers though it won't ever become a true E-sport. Competitive, sure--but not an E-sport.
Now Anet did say that these tools would be available for sure. Its just a question of how long. That is a large question. If these tools aren't available at launch or close to it they will have missed their chance at an audience. Casters will take one look at whats there and pass it on. If the tools come in a year later its way to late. Nobody is going to double back for it, its passed, done.
Anet has been listening to us pretty well. They consoled us with a good snipit of logic in saying they must first make sure the players and competition are there and catered to. Which is true. Without the competition and professional players you literally have zero chance at an E-sport. They then confirmed the tools to be in the game as soon as the competition was locked down and fine tuned. This gives me hope because it doesn't take long to implement these tools and they are obviously going to want to fine tune the compitition before release.
All in all, its a very good contender on the scene. Its got the following, the money, and the gameplay to be fresh and exciting as an E-sport. All we need now is some casting tools and some fine tuning.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home
Guild names are to be shown on the world map in the final build. Because guilds in beta are temporary (guilds in the actual game don't have 100 member caps) it is impossible to put the feature in right now. It would require that Anet erase the cache after every beta becaue guilds are no longer in existance. It confuses the engine. In the final build guilds will be permenent unless deleted through the game or account so the engine will be notified that they don't exist and the name will reopen as a possibility for claim.
http://www.wix.com/guardiansofthegarter/home