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GW2 Has Revealed Something To Me
Meleagar
Member Posts: 407
In the GW2 Beta, you had to actually force yourself to realize you can like being around other people now. You can be generous, patient, and enjoy the company of fellow adventurers. They cannot kill steal, ninja-loot, or bogart your nodes. All they can really do is help you. and increase your enjoyment of the game.
This made me wonder: what kind of malicious, sadistic, anti-social misfits have been programming MMOGs up until now? Why make it so that other players could steal your kill in the first place? Why make it so that resource nodes and loot was open to ninja stealing? Why program the game to force formal grouping and ultimately reward only those wiling to sacrifice their real lives for the game? Why set up a system that formally kept most of the players out of the top content and rewards?
The GW2 beta event was a real eye-opener. It's almost like Arenanet has broken some conspiratorial, secret set of MMOG development rules that, before now, we all just accepted as a necessary part of the genre. A lot of us were experiencing a kind of abused spouse syndrome, where we were expecting to get sucker-punched or slapped every time we turned around, and were instead shocked at the generosity and kindness displayed by our fellow adventurers, and the welcoming empowerment of the game-mechanics. Many of us had to work to discard bad habits that were necessary to cultivate in other MMOGs.
Once we realized the game really did embrace us, and that there was no game value in being an asshole (and lots of reason to not be), and that the game wasn't going to exclude us or force us to play some way we didn't want to play, there was this huge sense of relief and euphoria, like being set free from the harsh, unnecessary and unjust shackles of prior MMOGs.
Now there's a realization, much like when I read an interview with some Verant (EQ) developer who said that the player base enjoyed being the victims of GM vs Uberguild events: we casual players been lied to and used, suckered into playing games that had no intention of treating us with respect or consideration for the express purpose of populating those games as victims, 2nd-class citizens, and scrubs for the ego-amusement of others - including the developers themselves.
Comments
+10
Had forgotten about this, but its very true. I remember trying to tag mobs a couple of times during the BWE and then remembering it didn't matter. I also felt an urge to help everyone I saw needed help, it just gives you a different sense of community.
we were just talking about this with some of the guildies still playing WOW.. My husband and I were trying to explain how nearly grief proof GW2 is. It was funny(no not really) how many types and ways of griefing he kept coming up with, all from things happeneing everyday in WoW.. and it was pretty much us going "that wouldn't work" "that couldn't happen" "the game doesn't work like that".
For me this also goes back to the whole I DEMAND OPEN WORLD PVP WITH FULL LOOTING! that many people think games should be like... what decent person in their right mind thinks this way? Why would you think its ok or fun to kill someone and take all their stuff?
I hope that Anet continues to defend against the nastiness MMOs have become and aren't afraid to ban those finding ways to grief others in GW2.
11+
Some people just can't live without a pecking order, even if they are currently on the bottom as they assume that some day they could or will be on top. The American Dream is all about the pecking order and everyone buys into it because they assume they won't always be on the bottom. It's ingrained into our very lives on every level, so it's not surprising to me to see it reflected in our games and the way they are structured.
People have diferent tastes in how they play, as much as I enjoyed GW2 and the mechanics they have put into the game, I also like the competitive edge to an mmo too, some prefer the latter to the former. Neither is bad or better than the other imho. You just learn to play smarter or move along, tho if someone is doing it to harrass you then you have the option to report them.
If you dont like that sort of gameplay where players can cause mpk or ninjing mobs then you really should move to another game where it isnt allowed. We should have a choice on what type of games are available to us all and not to any one induvidual, FFXI had forced grouping, but I consider that one of the best mmo experiences I have had, and really built a great community because of it, the grievers eventually left, players got a bad name and eventually had to leave because people knew what type of person they were, if people are going to behave like asshats then it should have some repercussions.
I recall multiple occasions where I had "finished" whatever I was doing in a particular area, but I stayed to help others finish just because I wanted to be helpful and it was actually fun to play with total strangers.
For the first time since... well ever maybe I wasn't viewing other players as potential competition in PvE, but instead as potential allies.
Not UO, E&B, SWG, WOW, EQ2, FFXI, AOC, WAR, TR, RIFT, or TOR ever had this effect on me.
The fact that nothing you can do in the PvE side can negatively effect others is just... it's unique. In 12+ years of MMO gaming, it is truly unique.
I found myself following other people just to help them and to see if they knew about something or some place I didn't and just.. the spontaneous grouping...
Guy would pull too many mobs to handle, I'd help out by ripping one off of him or switching weapons and tossing a heal or buff their way.
One of us would go down and the other would come over and rez and/or help us Rally by killing our target first.
It was... truly special, and didn't just happen once or twice but ALL weekend.
The "American Dream" is a lie and I reject it completly. The rat race is for suckers.
My theme song.
I think the reason a lot of gamers feel that griefing is necessary in games is because they want a competitive element to the game and what they see as 'care-bear' mechanics supposedly takes all the competition and risk out of the game.
Whist this is true to an extent, what GW2 has going for it is that these mechanics help (well hopefully) foster a strong server community.
Where you get your competitive kicks will be from the WvWvW and structured PvP side of the game. Other games haven'd had such a strong PvP system in place, because PvP is usually an afterthought and based all around griefing if its open world. Maybe these games have relied on making every aspect of their game competitive to make up for poor PvP.
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I had a similar experience too.. it was strange to attack a mob someone else was already fighting and not feel at all guilty about it.
..and, something I expect in the future.. how many times have you made a mistake in PvE and dies to the mobs even though there were people nearby who could have helped - but they didn;t because they didn't want to kill-steal? No more of that in GW2!
MMO's used be like this years ago until they went mainstream and became loot grinds. when i played wow i actually found myself trying to avoid interacting with others because the majority of people playing were horrible to each other. But it just highlights how greedy and self absorbed we humans are. if you can send someone death threats over a few pixels then god help us.
+1 from me, though im having a hard time trying to sell the idea to my friends and not being called a care bear.
but hey, removing the things that just piss you off but have no real use from a game that's has such as high skill cap in PVP is fine by me.
was playing tera last night and the amount of KS i was getting (and doing) followed by a "HAHAHA, NOOB" just pointed this out to me even more so, cant wait for the next BWE and the live date!
Yes! It was really special. And since it's the fundamental premise of the game - various races having to band together to fight a greater threat - it shouldn't have been done any other way. Other games may have varying degrees of this, or at least may not penalize you for helping someone, but none of them that I've seen have actually made you feel that you could trust your potential ally. Why would I want to ally with someone who just tried to kill me and steal my stuff? Or someone who saw me running for a resource and snagged it before me?
I've played LotRO quite a bit over the last year and I gotta say it gets really annoying when someone steals a resource from you that you were obviously just about to grab. Or that helping someone out doesn't do anything for you unless you are fellowed with them. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but those things don't make much sense if everyone is supposed to be on the same side.
I also think that wanting to stick around to help others is partially a result of not having the need to hurry up and finish the game so you can get to "endgame". You can take your time with the game and truly experience it.....and still get rewarded. Truly amazing!
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
I read an article that very brilliantly said that in most MMOs it seems from the moment of character creation they are seperating players based on faction or race and forcing competition and a "hatred" of most of the people on your server before you even log in.
It really is amazing how much it changes things to not have factions and seperate players.
Look at two of the most "social" MMOs of all time with the best communities. See any trends?
LOTRO, FFXI....
Single player faction.
*Stands up*
*Starts vigorously clapping*
GW2 is going to put the MMO world on notice. You can make a game fun for casuals and hardcore alike, without the horrible gear grind that only awards those who have nothing else to do put play the game for 8-10 hours a day, and punishes those who like to play alts, have family and work demands, or join a game after launch.
Not only will GW2 rock for all of us who already preordered, it will be just as fun as someone who starts 6 months after launch, no need to worry about being undergeared or left out.
I have not played in the BWE at all, waiting for the finished game. With that being said, i have kept up on all the new's and video's i could find about GW2 (LMAO call me a fan boy). I really hope it's lives up to all the hype, as the last few mmo's i've played have been depressing to say the least. With no appearant penalties for helping other's out in PVE, i hope that will build a really awesome community. On the other side of the coin i really hope W v W v W turn's out to be a really awesome experience. Don't know if anyone ever played RF-online, had 3 races and a 3 way pvp war for mining right's in the best area, unfortunately was also a lag fest from hell. My personal beliefe is play what you like, if you don't like it don't play it.
I hit rock bottom in SWTOR.
I caught myself, at a quest point, literally being a aholeand tryng to outrace the other people from destroying the object for the quest. I had a hard day at work anddidnt want to spend another hour on this. I lead some mobs to him and when he took care of them i completed the quest.
And i realized how horrible MMORPGs are. What the hell was I playing. This isnt the multiplayer RPG> This isn't DND online, this is some poor escuse for playing with someone else. Someone out there thinks, that the only way to play with others is if someone screws someone else.
That is what RPG must mean to them. UO started it. It was suppose to be a bunch of people in the game all on the quest for the avatar. A design flaw allowed players to attack others and that started off MMOrpgs on the wrong fooot, competition tools instead of grouping tools.
I remember seeing it in play and thinking, why would i want to play that its nothing like ultima. I mean, we're talking about agame where the end boss was solving a group of puzzles. Then wow wratched it up a notch jand, hoping to at least organize pvp it just created more tropes that divided and forced people to compete.
Every other game maker has been trying to profit. Hoping to put lipstick on a pig. Rift (i'll add rifts to the pig, taht will make it pretty), tera (i'll add a crosshair that will make it pretty) , SWTOR (i'll add stories that will make it pretty). In the end doing a pig is still doing a pig.
So here comes GW2 saying screw all that andits a breath of fresh air.
I stopped playing everything after i realized how much i was enslaved to this gamel . There was no way i was going to be able to appreciate gw2 if i stayed in the transse of stupidity.
Rifts in RIFT were/are a gimmick, something put on top of a very familiar game in every single other aspect.
Take away the Rifts and what does RIFT have?
Level grind, quest hub, Trinity based combat, instanced PvP, mediocre crafting, end-game heroics/raiding etc. etc.
GW2 has the Heart quests which are like PQ's in WAR, and the DE's which are more advanced version of Rifts in RIFT - but NO quest hub grind underneath it all.
No trinity based combat, active/action mechanics, fully open/cooperative play style, end-game PvP from level 1 on, and dynamic content based on exploration (puzzles, hidden DE's/hearts, etc.)
At first I was like a lion lol.. watching and hunting mobs and yelling stop killing my mobs. I am mostly pve dont give a rats butt for pvp... all I care is killing mobs... then I got use to the idea of people hitting my mobs didnt matter as long as I did enough damage to get the kill I was happy and I saw I was getting my share of xp as well as they did so who cares. After I realize that I enjoyed the game more and more like when I started to play Rift Online the feeling of open raid no waiting for x player to be ready or the guild to be ready just get up and join the mayhem it was cool till elistism got in the game and parser freaks got in the game to make it go sour then too many freaking events too much gear change to gain 0.001% increase.
Current MMO's got too much clutter gear and greedy players example Aion. People in Aion even sell vendor stuff items for millions I am like why all this crap in ah that you can get at vendors for less.. but in AH selling for 5-10million a pop even every player shops selling the same crap that can be purchase on deva vendors..
In the end I am waiting for a game that teaches people the old eq game ethics in grouping skills.. A game with an efficient craft system that keeps crafters entertainent as well as useful to the player base.. sort of like ultima was back in the early days so I heard I never played ultima was too much money for me compare to eq.. I wish the days when playing skills where more intricate then having top gear..
ITs cool, i get it, slavery is now your choice, so if this is what u want have fun with your endgame grinds. Have fun working 80 hours a week for a game so you can do... oh work another 80 hur the next week for the next piece of armor.
GW2 shows communism can actually work and benefits the community as a whole , even if is just a game.
The fact that they managed to make a MMORPG where players of the same side are encouraged to work together instead of forcing them to fight each other over loot, resources, spawns is the thing that impressed me the most during that first beta week end. It's an impressive achievement that completely breaks the WoW clone loot whore model.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Some of us strive to be good in games where there is the OPTION of being evil. That is the point of having a choice; the decisions you make mold your avatar in character as well as stats.
So to be blunt, you're still "an asshole", you just don't have the motivation to be one in this game.
I can live with that - one has to endure enough assholes in "real life" to have to also endure them when playing games they pay for to have good time. If the usual griefer player category doesn't play this game, nobody will miss them.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I understand your sentiment sir, but you really don't speak for everyone. I'm playing a game where I'm routinely attacked and can be looted, yet I go out of my way to help new people all the time, because I know some of them will help me one day.
I want to play GWII and I think they went the right route for THIS game, but it bothers me when people make broad statements about what works and what doesn't. In some games, certain other players are their bad guys and its fun to be a beacon in the darkness.
I'll add that I think its ridiculous to think that you found some deeper truth or meaning about all of gaming because you are starry eyed about the next big mmo. That isn't directed towards anyone in particular. Just a general statement.
You're in super bitter mode arn't you? I used to read what you replied in threads ... I'm not sure what game ruined you so.