Don't go by these forums. These forums have far too many nutbars that throw about the "sandbox mmo" term, but neglect the basic fact that a "sandbox mmo" simply isn't viable. It simply can't attract enough subscribers.
These people are hanging around the wrong genre, simple as that.
Utter nonsense swg was doing fine until they tried to change it into a wow clone .
So, after frequenting these forums I get the impression that people are not happy with themepark MMOs. [...]
SOME people here are sandbox fans, yes. Their main pastime on this site: complaining that theres no good sandbox around. Except maybe EVE. And the original Ultima Online. And there was, once, the original SWG, before the NGE disaster ...
... personally I have informed myself about SWG and found out pretty fast that I would never have wanted to play it, NGE or not. EVE is just nothing that makes me really interested in the first place. As a singleplayer where I could explore a huge galaxy, preferably as a Jedi or something - sure. But a huge economy simulation ? Ugh, thanks but no, thanks. And Ultima Online has hopelessly outdated graphics anyway.
I play games for entertainment. Not for having another job - one is enough, thanks. I want a nice story told to me. Thus I prefer themeparks.
Originally posted by GPrestige
When it comes down to it, do you think that themepark MMOs are boring in general, or that they could be good, but are just executed poorly?
I prefer themeparks over sandboxes, but yes, what I get described here about some themeparks is frightening. I certainly dont want "gaming on rails". If I want that, I could play Tomb Raider, I dont need a MMO for that.
I want themeparks like Vanguard: many different quest areas at any level, and a huge gameworld to explore. Quite frankly VG has still not enough of the later, for my taste.
So, after frequenting these forums I get the impression that people are not happy with themepark MMOs. I personally have begun to get bored of certain aspects of the themepark-style MMO, such as repetitiveness... but I do not hate it like I see a lot of people here do.
What I want to know is if people actually HATE themepark MMOs, or they are just sick of seeing that a majority of MMOs coming out fit into that category. A lot of MMOs that have been released in the last few years seem to have something wrong with them, but the themepark complaint seems to only be pre-release. Post-release, people completely forget about it, and start to complain about something else.
When it comes down to it, do you think that themepark MMOs are boring in general, or that they could be good, but are just executed poorly?
That is the problem..you base your opinion of multi million MMO business and what is in demand or not on basis of these forums.
I think a lot of people dont hate every possible themepark. But the problem is that they are all the same. And also that some general MMORPG features that could be part of a Themepark are missing. Because those features are not mainstream enough, not streamlined enough, are to harsh, to hardcore or to tedious and so on... The games are really action multiplayer games and not true MMORPG:s.
But yes, I have been staying away from most modern themeparks. They're focusing to much on soloplay.
Aion - Free to play
AoC - Free to play
STO - Free to play
CO - Free to play
LOTRO - Free to play
EQ2 - Free to play
DCUO - Free to play
WAR - Free to play
I mean sure.... people play themeparks in there current state, but not enough seem to stick around for the game to be profitable off of subs.
But nah, I'm just playing devils advocate here. I'm actually looking forward to a themepark GW2 :P
WAR is not Free to play.....
Is it really worth having more than level 10 twinks?
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Don't go by these forums. These forums have far too many nutbars that throw about the "sandbox mmo" term, but neglect the basic fact that a "sandbox mmo" simply isn't viable. It simply can't attract enough subscribers.
These people are hanging around the wrong genre, simple as that.
The thing is, developers aim too high for subscriber numbers. Games like Darkfall have a tiny population in comparison to the AAA themeparks, yet it is making a profit.
I think a sandbox is should take much less resources to create as you don't have to focus on story and quests. You just create a world and players do their own thing. And if you attract only 100k players, then you run it on just a few servers and let it chug along.
I predict that in 10 years time, when we have 3 gazillion MMOs out there, developers will have to be content with a smalled sub base in any case.
It depends upon investment and yes DF is a low budget sandbox. If there was a demand for AAA Sandbox title you think developers wouldn't make it? who would want to sink millions into a project only because some people complain on forums about themepark MMOS?
Low budgest and shoddy production values is what we get with sandbox titles. MO is barely surviving, DF is going down under to re surface as DF 2.0 which is tryign to attract more casual players. Earth Rise was shut down. Ryzom has been re surrected twice..Xyson is barely surviving and so many other sandbox titles which are just forgotten.
Prime another example of 3 faction sandbox titles which couldn't even complete its development and is dead even before release. How many examples do players need to see the obvious truth?
Eve Online is the only exception to the rule but then again it is not your typical sandbox run of a mill MMO.
I think a lot of people dont hate every possible themepark. But the problem is that they are all the same. And also that some general MMORPG features that could be part of a Themepark are missing. Because those features are not mainstream enough, not streamlined enough, are to harsh, to hardcore or to tedious and so on... The games are really action multiplayer games and not true MMORPG:s.
I still think a Themepark can be a good game.
A true MMORPG is themepark. If you're talking about RPGs. There are only 2 popular sandbox games, and neither of them would be considered an RPG if you took the multiplayer aspect away.
If you were playing a solo game, and the whole game was about building a house or a city, guess what, u're not playing an RPG, youre playing either a simulation or a strategy game. This is like complaining about having more jumping puzzles in the game or the game should be more like a platform game.
I keep hearing people say "i want to write my own story". HOw in the world are you writing your own story building a house, what story did u write? U got wood to build a house it got stolen? That sounds like an awful story compared to i slayed the big ole dragon and saved the world.
It depends upon investment and yes DF is a low budget sandbox. If there was a demand for AAA Sandbox title you think developers wouldn't make it? who would want to sink millions into a project only because some people complain on forums about themepark MMOS?
Low budgest and shoddy production values is what we get with sandbox titles. MO is barely surviving, DF is goign down udner to re surface as DF 2.0 which is tryign to attract more casual players. Earth Rise was shut down.
Eve Online is the only exception to the rule but then again it is not your typical sandbox run of a mill MMO.
Wondering what your typical sandbox run of the mill MMO would be? I think the point of sandbox is they don't have to follow a set rule, offering content a and content b. As to your other question who would want to sink millions into a sandbox project? CCP, again. World of Darkness Online if it comes out (hope!).
EVE is just nothing that makes me really interested in the first place. As a singleplayer where I could explore a huge galaxy, preferably as a Jedi or something - sure. But a huge economy simulation ? Ugh, thanks but no, thanks.
Why on earth would you choose to concentrate on the aspect of a game you dislike? If you don't want to manufacture, kill things, get political, explore, let the crafters deal with the economy, it is clear you don't understand how a sandbox works. People play EvE for years and don't make a single bullet, others don't fire a single shot.
It depends upon investment and yes DF is a low budget sandbox. If there was a demand for AAA Sandbox title you think developers wouldn't make it? who would want to sink millions into a project only because some people complain on forums about themepark MMOS?
Low budgest and shoddy production values is what we get with sandbox titles. MO is barely surviving, DF is goign down udner to re surface as DF 2.0 which is tryign to attract more casual players. Earth Rise was shut down.
Eve Online is the only exception to the rule but then again it is not your typical sandbox run of a mill MMO.
Wondering what your typical sandbox run of the mill MMO would be? I think the point of sandbox is they don't have to follow a set rule, offering content a and content b. As to your other question who would want to sink millions into a sandbox project? CCP, again. World of Darkness Online if it comes out (hope!).
A typical sandbox would be FFA pvp set in fantasy settings (add permadeath to it if you so desire)...and that is why EVE is a success because it is not a sandbox RPG in traditional sense.
Yes CCp with already one successful sandbox MMO under their belt who are again not making a typical FFA fanatsy sandbox with WOD.
It depends upon investment and yes DF is a low budget sandbox. If there was a demand for AAA Sandbox title you think developers wouldn't make it? who would want to sink millions into a project only because some people complain on forums about themepark MMOS? Low budgest and shoddy production values is what we get with sandbox titles. MO is barely surviving, DF is goign down udner to re surface as DF 2.0 which is tryign to attract more casual players. Earth Rise was shut down. Eve Online is the only exception to the rule but then again it is not your typical sandbox run of a mill MMO.
Wondering what your typical sandbox run of the mill MMO would be? I think the point of sandbox is they don't have to follow a set rule, offering content a and content b. As to your other question who would want to sink millions into a sandbox project? CCP, again. World of Darkness Online if it comes out (hope!).
It depends upon investment and yes DF is a low budget sandbox. If there was a demand for AAA Sandbox title you think developers wouldn't make it? who would want to sink millions into a project only because some people complain on forums about themepark MMOS?
Low budgest and shoddy production values is what we get with sandbox titles. MO is barely surviving, DF is goign down udner to re surface as DF 2.0 which is tryign to attract more casual players. Earth Rise was shut down.
Eve Online is the only exception to the rule but then again it is not your typical sandbox run of a mill MMO.
Wondering what your typical sandbox run of the mill MMO would be? I think the point of sandbox is they don't have to follow a set rule, offering content a and content b. As to your other question who would want to sink millions into a sandbox project? CCP, again. World of Darkness Online if it comes out (hope!).
A typical sandbox would be FFA pvp set in fantasy settings (add permadeath to it if you so desire)...and that is why EVE is a success because it is not a sandbox RPG in traditional sense.
Yes CCp with already one successful sandbox MMO under their belt who are again not making a typical FFA fanatsy sandbox with WOD.
To be honest I am bored to tears with fantasy if you mean knights, dwarves, elves etc. SWG where did that fit in? RPG doesn't = fantasy.
It depends upon investment and yes DF is a low budget sandbox. If there was a demand for AAA Sandbox title you think developers wouldn't make it? who would want to sink millions into a project only because some people complain on forums about themepark MMOS?
Low budgest and shoddy production values is what we get with sandbox titles. MO is barely surviving, DF is goign down udner to re surface as DF 2.0 which is tryign to attract more casual players. Earth Rise was shut down.
Eve Online is the only exception to the rule but then again it is not your typical sandbox run of a mill MMO.
Wondering what your typical sandbox run of the mill MMO would be? I think the point of sandbox is they don't have to follow a set rule, offering content a and content b. As to your other question who would want to sink millions into a sandbox project? CCP, again. World of Darkness Online if it comes out (hope!).
A typical sandbox would be FFA pvp set in fantasy settings (add permadeath to it if you so desire)...and that is why EVE is a success because it is not a sandbox RPG in traditional sense.
Yes CCp with already one successful sandbox MMO under their belt who are again not making a typical FFA fanatsy sandbox with WOD.
To be honest I am bored to tears with fantasy if you mean knights, dwarves, elves etc. SWG where did that fit in? RPG doesn't = fantasy.
I never said RPG means fantasy all i said was that EVE isn't your typical traditional RPG and neither is WOD.
When it comes down to it, do you think that themepark MMOs are boring in general, or that they could be good, but are just executed poorly?
For me it all comes down to why I play MMORPGs: to experience a virtual world that I cannot experience in real life. Please get me right: there's nothing wrong with real life (on the contrary, I love it!), but to be able to jump into an alternate world is exciting in itself.
Sadly, themeparks do not provide worlds. Themeparks provide a cheap facade of a world like in a b-movie. You can grab a bag of popcorn and watch the actors for an hour - and after that you're proclaimed a hero like every other of the 1000s of people who pressed a few buttons on their keyboard.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
A typical sandbox would be FFA pvp set in fantasy settings (add permadeath to it if you so desire)...and that is why EVE is a success because it is not a sandbox RPG in traditional sense.
Yes CCp with already one successful sandbox MMO under their belt who are again not making a typical FFA fanatsy sandbox with WOD.
To be honest I am bored to tears with fantasy if you mean knights, dwarves, elves etc. SWG where did that fit in? RPG doesn't = fantasy.
I never said RPG means fantasy all i said was that EVE isn't your typical traditional RPG and neither is WOD.
Perhaps I should have said sandbox doesn't = fantasy rpg. I'm not overtly defending CCP. I don't even play EVE. But I am a big sci fi fan and in other areas except gaming it's lumped in with fantasy. It's all someone's ideas from imagination right? When we limit in our mind what subject a typical "sandbox" or "rpg" is, then we limit what we expect. Not necessarily you in particular, we as gamers I mean.
P.S. Otherland is another example, the books at least. No idea how that will all work in a game or if there are sandbox elements involved in it. But the opportunity was there at least. And to the original question, themeparks are bad if you are stuck in someone else's imagination with no room for your own to take hold as well. I don't demand FULL sandbox, or full anything else. But I do think options are nice. As for WoD I believe it will have themepark/coffee-shop/sandbox elements all rolled into one. As someone who likes sandbox, I don't mind sharing space with other playstyles. Salem looks cool too btw.
So, after frequenting these forums I get the impression that people are not happy with themepark MMOs. [...]
SOME people here are sandbox fans, yes. Their main pastime on this site: complaining that theres no good sandbox around. Except maybe EVE. And the original Ultima Online. And there was, once, the original SWG, before the NGE disaster ...
... personally I have informed myself about SWG and found out pretty fast that I would never have wanted to play it, NGE or not. EVE is just nothing that makes me really interested in the first place. As a singleplayer where I could explore a huge galaxy, preferably as a Jedi or something - sure. But a huge economy simulation ? Ugh, thanks but no, thanks. And Ultima Online has hopelessly outdated graphics anyway.
I play games for entertainment. Not for having another job - one is enough, thanks. I want a nice story told to me. Thus I prefer themeparks.
Originally posted by GPrestige
When it comes down to it, do you think that themepark MMOs are boring in general, or that they could be good, but are just executed poorly?
I prefer themeparks over sandboxes, but yes, what I get described here about some themeparks is frightening. I certainly dont want "gaming on rails". If I want that, I could play Tomb Raider, I dont need a MMO for that.
I want themeparks like Vanguard: many different quest areas at any level, and a huge gameworld to explore. Quite frankly VG has still not enough of the later, for my taste.
The way I see it, you could play a themepark mmorpg and enjoy that - but your second mmorpg themepark and so on might be for the rest of them too similar to that first enjoyable one. Why is this especially undesirable in the mmorpg genre? Whereas in other genres it's not such a problem?
1) Lots of Time played in these games and some sort of proportional change in mmorpg virtual worlds/avatar influence as the reward of gameplay invested.
2) development of communities and ecosystems of interactions between players that makes mmorpg genre uniquely social experience and collective gameplay.
If themepark don't do these very well, the time put into them is too much for same rewards you'd get in other games for less time eg fun combat, exploration of a level, some co-op teamwork against another team etc.
GW2 looks like it will be a fun game, but mainly because you can dabble so much in it for short bursts of gameplay. But it does not seem to provide a mmorpg experience that you see build indefinitely so much as a large shared experience of lots of good elements of gameplay which is quite a good model come to think about it!
EVE is just nothing that makes me really interested in the first place. As a singleplayer where I could explore a huge galaxy, preferably as a Jedi or something - sure. But a huge economy simulation ? Ugh, thanks but no, thanks.
Why on earth would you choose to concentrate on the aspect of a game you dislike? If you don't want to manufacture, kill things, get political, explore, let the crafters deal with the economy, it is clear you don't understand how a sandbox works. People play EvE for years and don't make a single bullet, others don't fire a single shot.
You take the whole package or you don't. Eve's strongest suit is the economy simulation, but other games do space combat better. Even exploration is at its best in a single player game. If you don't enjoy the economy simulation or any of the other aspects of that game, it is fine to look for a game with better space combat/exploration. Then again there is very little to choose from in that front...
It matters how well something is made and who does it best. Nothing to do with sandboxes, except usually sandboxes do many things but do them poorly whereas other games may do only few things but they do them well. Themeparks are good with combat, co-op play, and story. Other features are secondary if they make it to the game at all.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I hate the shallow products of most of the last eight years. They mostly happen to be theme parks. Many (most) were also rushed to market.
Developers see one winning formula, and make bad sequels. Eventually, enough of the sequels will fail and the industry will move on. There are signs that's already happening, but encouragement with your gaming dollars is in order.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
They don't have to be that bad. Its just that themeparks have been where the worst dynamics of MMO's are introduced. Turning many modern MMO's, a genre that was supposed to be about world simulators and rpg's, into shallow hollow affairs at best, or lobby games at worst.
So, after frequenting these forums I get the impression that people are not happy with themepark MMOs. I personally have begun to get bored of certain aspects of the themepark-style MMO, such as repetitiveness... but I do not hate it like I see a lot of people here do.
What I want to know is if people actually HATE themepark MMOs, or they are just sick of seeing that a majority of MMOs coming out fit into that category. A lot of MMOs that have been released in the last few years seem to have something wrong with them, but the themepark complaint seems to only be pre-release. Post-release, people completely forget about it, and start to complain about something else.
When it comes down to it, do you think that themepark MMOs are boring in general, or that they could be good, but are just executed poorly?
Really sir, if you need to come here to work this out your never going to find the answer. So I'll do you a favor and just give it to you.
It's personal choice that determines if you like themepark or sandbox and any hybrid of the two. Personal choice. Neither one is good or bad in itself. It's PERSONAL CHOICE.
Just like which TV shows your watch, books you read, car you drive. There's no magical, mystical cause that says Themepark's suck.
Come on. Deep down, you have to know this naturally right?
Themeparks are like Charlie Sheen: I don't hate them, I'm just so sick of seeing them everywhere I turn.
I'd like something with a bit more freedom and more challenge, but I dont want FFAPVP.
I enjoy exploration in MMOs. Some people contend that Sandboxes are all about exploration, but when there's nothing to find because everything is based on player-created content, exploration becomes rather pointless in my opinion.
I dont want players creating my content. This is because players, in a collective sense, are not game designers, and (with a few exceptions) completely suck at creating content.
Originally posted by Kitane heh Don't go by these forums. These forums have far too many nutbars that throw about the "sandbox mmo" term, but neglect the basic fact that a "sandbox mmo" simply isn't viable. It simply can't attract enough subscribers. These people are hanging around the wrong genre, simple as that.
Utter nonsense swg was doing fine until they tried to change it into a wow clone .
SWG was not "doing fine". Within 3 months of release SWG had already lost fully 3/4 of the people that had bought the box, and was losing 10 000+ subscribers a month when the decision was made to change the game.
Furthermore, when the changes were made, only half of the remaining subscribers got all up in arms about them, so approximately 100 000. Even furthermore, of that 100 000, a very large chunk weren't mad about "all" the changes. In fact, those people knew the game had to be changed. They were upset about the [u]specific[/i] change made to how Jedi status was achieved. People forget that.
That other half of subscribers that didn't nerd rage away were happy about the changes, and they were the ones that kept the game alive.
Of course, WoW had already taken everyone else, and SWG didn't stand a chance of getting people to switch/switch back. That, and that alone, is why people like yourself can pretend that it was "the changes" that almost killed SWG.
So in the end, it was somewhere around 30 000 people worlwide, maybe (and that's being generous) that liked SWG the way it was before the changes.
As for EvE? Heh heh to anyone thinking EvE is a sandbox game that's viable to any company other than CCP.
The game wouldn't exist if it hadn't been made by a development house that, at the time, was very very small. 21 people small. People also forget that EvE actually tanked hard when it was released. So hard it was going to be closed down until CCP bought the rights outright, and then it was again only because the company was so small, and had such low overhead, that the game survived. Then it barely survived for years after that. It wasn't till changes were made to actually make the game more "themepark" that it started to get a population increase. Even so, your gaming experience in EvE is controlled by a handful of large Corps whether you realize it or not. So your game time is just being dictated by someone else instead of the designers.
The company itself can still only claim 300 000K subs, with the actual number being somewhere around 120k, and it's only that big because of CCP working with some of the Corps for so many years now.
RPers have consistently twisted what RPG means. In doing that, and consistently being the most vocal minority on pretty much every gaming related site, they are slowly killing the genre.
Theme parks are not bad but the problem is that everyone and their cousin is making one. You get tired fo theme parks really quick nowadays. Noone has the guts to make a sanbox mmo for the masses.
Comments
Utter nonsense swg was doing fine until they tried to change it into a wow clone .
SOME people here are sandbox fans, yes. Their main pastime on this site: complaining that theres no good sandbox around. Except maybe EVE. And the original Ultima Online. And there was, once, the original SWG, before the NGE disaster ...
... personally I have informed myself about SWG and found out pretty fast that I would never have wanted to play it, NGE or not. EVE is just nothing that makes me really interested in the first place. As a singleplayer where I could explore a huge galaxy, preferably as a Jedi or something - sure. But a huge economy simulation ? Ugh, thanks but no, thanks. And Ultima Online has hopelessly outdated graphics anyway.
I play games for entertainment. Not for having another job - one is enough, thanks. I want a nice story told to me. Thus I prefer themeparks.
I prefer themeparks over sandboxes, but yes, what I get described here about some themeparks is frightening. I certainly dont want "gaming on rails". If I want that, I could play Tomb Raider, I dont need a MMO for that.
I want themeparks like Vanguard: many different quest areas at any level, and a huge gameworld to explore. Quite frankly VG has still not enough of the later, for my taste.
WAR is not Free to play.....
That is the problem..you base your opinion of multi million MMO business and what is in demand or not on basis of these forums.
I think a lot of people dont hate every possible themepark. But the problem is that they are all the same. And also that some general MMORPG features that could be part of a Themepark are missing. Because those features are not mainstream enough, not streamlined enough, are to harsh, to hardcore or to tedious and so on... The games are really action multiplayer games and not true MMORPG:s.
I still think a Themepark can be a good game.
Is it really worth having more than level 10 twinks?
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
It depends upon investment and yes DF is a low budget sandbox. If there was a demand for AAA Sandbox title you think developers wouldn't make it? who would want to sink millions into a project only because some people complain on forums about themepark MMOS?
Low budgest and shoddy production values is what we get with sandbox titles. MO is barely surviving, DF is going down under to re surface as DF 2.0 which is tryign to attract more casual players. Earth Rise was shut down. Ryzom has been re surrected twice..Xyson is barely surviving and so many other sandbox titles which are just forgotten.
Prime another example of 3 faction sandbox titles which couldn't even complete its development and is dead even before release. How many examples do players need to see the obvious truth?
Eve Online is the only exception to the rule but then again it is not your typical sandbox run of a mill MMO.
A true MMORPG is themepark. If you're talking about RPGs. There are only 2 popular sandbox games, and neither of them would be considered an RPG if you took the multiplayer aspect away.
If you were playing a solo game, and the whole game was about building a house or a city, guess what, u're not playing an RPG, youre playing either a simulation or a strategy game. This is like complaining about having more jumping puzzles in the game or the game should be more like a platform game.
I keep hearing people say "i want to write my own story". HOw in the world are you writing your own story building a house, what story did u write? U got wood to build a house it got stolen? That sounds like an awful story compared to i slayed the big ole dragon and saved the world.
Wondering what your typical sandbox run of the mill MMO would be? I think the point of sandbox is they don't have to follow a set rule, offering content a and content b. As to your other question who would want to sink millions into a sandbox project? CCP, again. World of Darkness Online if it comes out (hope!).
the poster formerly known as melangel :P
Why on earth would you choose to concentrate on the aspect of a game you dislike? If you don't want to manufacture, kill things, get political, explore, let the crafters deal with the economy, it is clear you don't understand how a sandbox works. People play EvE for years and don't make a single bullet, others don't fire a single shot.A typical sandbox would be FFA pvp set in fantasy settings (add permadeath to it if you so desire)...and that is why EVE is a success because it is not a sandbox RPG in traditional sense.
Yes CCp with already one successful sandbox MMO under their belt who are again not making a typical FFA fanatsy sandbox with WOD.
Wondering what your typical sandbox run of the mill MMO would be? I think the point of sandbox is they don't have to follow a set rule, offering content a and content b. As to your other question who would want to sink millions into a sandbox project? CCP, again. World of Darkness Online if it comes out (hope!).
ArcheAge has a good budget tooTo be honest I am bored to tears with fantasy if you mean knights, dwarves, elves etc. SWG where did that fit in? RPG doesn't = fantasy.
the poster formerly known as melangel :P
I never said RPG means fantasy all i said was that EVE isn't your typical traditional RPG and neither is WOD.
For me it all comes down to why I play MMORPGs: to experience a virtual world that I cannot experience in real life. Please get me right: there's nothing wrong with real life (on the contrary, I love it!), but to be able to jump into an alternate world is exciting in itself.
Sadly, themeparks do not provide worlds. Themeparks provide a cheap facade of a world like in a b-movie. You can grab a bag of popcorn and watch the actors for an hour - and after that you're proclaimed a hero like every other of the 1000s of people who pressed a few buttons on their keyboard.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Perhaps I should have said sandbox doesn't = fantasy rpg. I'm not overtly defending CCP. I don't even play EVE. But I am a big sci fi fan and in other areas except gaming it's lumped in with fantasy. It's all someone's ideas from imagination right? When we limit in our mind what subject a typical "sandbox" or "rpg" is, then we limit what we expect. Not necessarily you in particular, we as gamers I mean.
P.S. Otherland is another example, the books at least. No idea how that will all work in a game or if there are sandbox elements involved in it. But the opportunity was there at least. And to the original question, themeparks are bad if you are stuck in someone else's imagination with no room for your own to take hold as well. I don't demand FULL sandbox, or full anything else. But I do think options are nice. As for WoD I believe it will have themepark/coffee-shop/sandbox elements all rolled into one. As someone who likes sandbox, I don't mind sharing space with other playstyles. Salem looks cool too btw.
the poster formerly known as melangel :P
The way I see it, you could play a themepark mmorpg and enjoy that - but your second mmorpg themepark and so on might be for the rest of them too similar to that first enjoyable one. Why is this especially undesirable in the mmorpg genre? Whereas in other genres it's not such a problem?
1) Lots of Time played in these games and some sort of proportional change in mmorpg virtual worlds/avatar influence as the reward of gameplay invested.
2) development of communities and ecosystems of interactions between players that makes mmorpg genre uniquely social experience and collective gameplay.
If themepark don't do these very well, the time put into them is too much for same rewards you'd get in other games for less time eg fun combat, exploration of a level, some co-op teamwork against another team etc.
GW2 looks like it will be a fun game, but mainly because you can dabble so much in it for short bursts of gameplay. But it does not seem to provide a mmorpg experience that you see build indefinitely so much as a large shared experience of lots of good elements of gameplay which is quite a good model come to think about it!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
You take the whole package or you don't. Eve's strongest suit is the economy simulation, but other games do space combat better. Even exploration is at its best in a single player game. If you don't enjoy the economy simulation or any of the other aspects of that game, it is fine to look for a game with better space combat/exploration. Then again there is very little to choose from in that front...
It matters how well something is made and who does it best. Nothing to do with sandboxes, except usually sandboxes do many things but do them poorly whereas other games may do only few things but they do them well. Themeparks are good with combat, co-op play, and story. Other features are secondary if they make it to the game at all.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Themeparks aint as bad as the dramaqueens make them out to be
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
I hate the shallow products of most of the last eight years. They mostly happen to be theme parks. Many (most) were also rushed to market.
Developers see one winning formula, and make bad sequels. Eventually, enough of the sequels will fail and the industry will move on. There are signs that's already happening, but encouragement with your gaming dollars is in order.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
They don't have to be that bad. Its just that themeparks have been where the worst dynamics of MMO's are introduced. Turning many modern MMO's, a genre that was supposed to be about world simulators and rpg's, into shallow hollow affairs at best, or lobby games at worst.
Really sir, if you need to come here to work this out your never going to find the answer. So I'll do you a favor and just give it to you.
It's personal choice that determines if you like themepark or sandbox and any hybrid of the two. Personal choice. Neither one is good or bad in itself. It's PERSONAL CHOICE.
Just like which TV shows your watch, books you read, car you drive. There's no magical, mystical cause that says Themepark's suck.
Come on. Deep down, you have to know this naturally right?
THINK ABOUT IT.
Themeparks are like Charlie Sheen: I don't hate them, I'm just so sick of seeing them everywhere I turn.
I'd like something with a bit more freedom and more challenge, but I dont want FFAPVP.
I enjoy exploration in MMOs. Some people contend that Sandboxes are all about exploration, but when there's nothing to find because everything is based on player-created content, exploration becomes rather pointless in my opinion.
I dont want players creating my content. This is because players, in a collective sense, are not game designers, and (with a few exceptions) completely suck at creating content.
Furthermore, when the changes were made, only half of the remaining subscribers got all up in arms about them, so approximately 100 000. Even furthermore, of that 100 000, a very large chunk weren't mad about "all" the changes. In fact, those people knew the game had to be changed. They were upset about the [u]specific[/i] change made to how Jedi status was achieved. People forget that.
That other half of subscribers that didn't nerd rage away were happy about the changes, and they were the ones that kept the game alive.
Of course, WoW had already taken everyone else, and SWG didn't stand a chance of getting people to switch/switch back. That, and that alone, is why people like yourself can pretend that it was "the changes" that almost killed SWG.
So in the end, it was somewhere around 30 000 people worlwide, maybe (and that's being generous) that liked SWG the way it was before the changes.
As for EvE? Heh heh to anyone thinking EvE is a sandbox game that's viable to any company other than CCP.
The game wouldn't exist if it hadn't been made by a development house that, at the time, was very very small. 21 people small. People also forget that EvE actually tanked hard when it was released. So hard it was going to be closed down until CCP bought the rights outright, and then it was again only because the company was so small, and had such low overhead, that the game survived. Then it barely survived for years after that. It wasn't till changes were made to actually make the game more "themepark" that it started to get a population increase. Even so, your gaming experience in EvE is controlled by a handful of large Corps whether you realize it or not. So your game time is just being dictated by someone else instead of the designers.
The company itself can still only claim 300 000K subs, with the actual number being somewhere around 120k, and it's only that big because of CCP working with some of the Corps for so many years now.
RPers have consistently twisted what RPG means. In doing that, and consistently being the most vocal minority on pretty much every gaming related site, they are slowly killing the genre.
Theme parks are not bad but the problem is that everyone and their cousin is making one. You get tired fo theme parks really quick nowadays. Noone has the guts to make a sanbox mmo for the masses.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/