Originally posted by RefMinor Originally posted by BadSpock Originally posted by MMOExposed

Wow GW2 had a population drop in beta?

We are really going to have a conversation about population in a game's beta? Really?

It is good thing to keep it on the graph to show the flat earthers that XFire does mirror trends, beta weekend finishes population drops to 0. Some of them are quite stubborn because they cannot string thoughts together so well.

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

Were not looking for actual numbers, were looking for trends

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

100% wrong and you keep ignoring all the posts that show you otherwise lizardbones; dross frankly.

The XFire player numbers being tracked could be used to do what you say without assuming any additional number. You use the official numbers given out by EA e.g. 1M on 23rd December, 1.7M twice, average player hours on different occasions. No assumed numbers necessary.

The hard bit - if you do make any projections - would be deciding how accurate the projection was.

Now you may want the total hours played yesterday to the exact second but observers of this thread just go with the trend but I haven't seen anyone of late try to use the numbers in the way you suggest. Sorry to pull you up on that point but we have gone beyond that - if there still were I would be at your side telling them why they shouldn't.

Next week we may get more data - depends what EA say.

Maybe EA say 450k and it turns out that XFire is a superb tool at this point in time! Maybe they say 600k - so we have a large margin of error but not that bad. Maybe they say 1.7M in which case we all scratch our heads and look to see exactly what EA said! How many trials?

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

100% wrong and you keep ignoring all the posts that show you otherwise lizardbones; dross frankly. The XFire player numbers being tracked could be used to do what you say without assuming any additional number. You use the official numbers given out by EA e.g. 1M on 23rd December, 1.7M twice, average player hours on different occasions. No assumed numbers necessary. The hard bit - if you do make any projections - would be deciding how accurate the projection was. Now you may want the total hours played yesterday to the exact second but observers of this thread just go with the trend but I haven't seen anyone of late try to use the numbers in the way you suggest. (Sorry to pull you up on that point.) Next week we may get more data - depends what EA say. Maybe EA say 450k and it turns out that XFire is a superb tool at this point in time! Maybe they say 600k - so we have a large margin of error but not that bad. Maybe they say 1.7M in which case we all scratch our heads and look to see exactly what EA said! How many trials?

Then do it. Anyone on these forums, do it. I would like to see it done without assuming any numbers. ** edit starting here ** Calculate a margin of error other than "large". You can't do it and neither can anyone else. There's not enough information there to do it.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

Originally posted by Blackwater56 Originally posted by lizardbones

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

Were not looking for actual numbers, were looking for trends

Look at gervaise1's post. When you say, "We", make sure you know who you're including in the "We".

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

100% wrong and you keep ignoring all the posts that show you otherwise lizardbones; dross frankly.

The XFire player numbers being tracked could be used to do what you say without assuming any additional number. You use the official numbers given out by EA e.g. 1M on 23rd December, 1.7M twice, average player hours on different occasions. No assumed numbers necessary.

The hard bit - if you do make any projections - would be deciding how accurate the projection was.

Now you may want the total hours played yesterday to the exact second but observers of this thread just go with the trend but I haven't seen anyone of late try to use the numbers in the way you suggest. (Sorry to pull you up on that point.)

Next week we may get more data - depends what EA say.

Maybe EA say 450k and it turns out that XFire is a superb tool at this point in time! Maybe they say 600k - so we have a large margin of error but not that bad. Maybe they say 1.7M in which case we all scratch our heads and look to see exactly what EA said! How many trials?

Then do it. Anyone on these forums, do it. I would like to see it done without assuming any numbers. ** edit starting here ** Calculate a margin of error other than "large". You can't do it and neither can anyone else. There's not enough information there to do it.

Last time you said this I told you I had already done it and the answer came out at c. 20%. Again you ignored the post. Now on Monday we get more data and we can all have more fun. When EA announce that subs are 3M and rising you can come and say how right you were.

Edit: And sorry about the we - I mean those people who are not after absolutes, happy now? (Probably not).

And because I obviously need to be super accurate I had better say that what we have is more complicated than "simple" polling but the analogy is 'good enough' for this forum. Just so you know however.

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

Then do it. Anyone on these forums, do it. I would like to see it done without assuming any numbers. ** edit starting here ** Calculate a margin of error other than "large". You can't do it and neither can anyone else. There's not enough information there to do it.

I have to agree that you can't use the SWTOR numbers to calculate a margin of error, it would end up being so large that a random guess would have a bigger chance of getting the number of players correct.

I have been following the xfire numbers for AoC for a couple of years and if you get one anchor point that isn't in the middle of a large change in population, you can use that to get a nice ballpark number. Funcom haven't released any actual number of players since ... forever, and I was more interested in the income, so I just calculated the income pr xfire player.

Anyway, what I discovered was that if you correct the xfire numbers for the number of total xfire players you could predict the income within maybe 20% margin of error for AoC. The xfire numbers after F2P and large changes in the AoC population has made this pretty unreliable.

My conclusion is that even with a really small number of xfire players for AoC I got a pretty reliable number, the same should be true for SWTOR which has a much larger sample. To me it looks like SWTOR has at least 500k players. The maximum I feel is a bit harder to calculate, so I can only guess that is about 1 million players. The number of subscribers can be higher due to longer subscriptions.

I have characters on Shadow Hand which ranks #13 out of 123 North American servers on www.torstatus.net

The first month SWTOR launched, during primetime the Sith Fleet would have 250+ players. The current Sith Fleet population during primetime is 110+ players which is a loss of 56% of the playerbase. Rebel Fleet went from 80+ to 30+. My guild would have 20+ members online and now just me or 1 other person. ALL FACTS

Based on the above statistics SWTOR would have a subscriber base of roughly 750k.

Yes the naysayers will say, "not all servers will reflect the same statistics." True, but we can atleast get a close approximation based on a popular server.

I cannot speak to xfire margin of error, etc. as previously mentioned, but the overall trend is a significant decline in subscriptions. Bioware/EA is completely full of it to say they have retained 1.7 million subscribers. Story after story on the boards at MMORPG.com and SWTOR.com of complete guilds and servers as ghost towns.

Just my 2 cents, and very worried about SWTOR's future. Why can't anyone come out with a great sci-fi mmo, we have way too many fantasy based. jeesh. peace out.

Oh, a continuation of a useless thread claiming the useless data from a useless application has meaning. How useless. Seriously is there anything left to be said?

Yes, what a useless comment.

Hey Ref, did you like GW2? I was looking for your opinion on it. All I saw was something about Salem

I restrict my GW2 comments to its collective of fans "The Hivemind". I don't actually comment on the game because I haven't played it, looks reasonably fun, I don't have a total rejection of cash shops on principle so I may play it in future but I doubt it will be the second coming of Jebus. I am currently doing a couple of small beta's, one of which is Salem. awaiting ArcheAge and WoD and an Alpha of an old friend.

wow it's the same three to four haters pounding this horse into sludge. Wouldn't it be easier to take it to PM since tis basically the 4 of you bumping your on thread.

Thank you for your comment, you seem to be getting to be quite a regular here, I guess it's like when you drive past a car crash, you can't help but slow down to have a look. It's a free forum, no one one makes you click, the title tells you what you are clicking on, there's no excuse.

Originally posted by Blackwater56 Originally posted by lizardbones

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

Were not looking for actual numbers, were looking for trends

Look at gervaise1's post. When you say, "We", make sure you know who you're including in the "We".

wow it's the same three to four haters pounding this horse into sludge. Wouldn't it be easier to take it to PM since tis basically the 4 of you bumping your on thread.

Thank you for your comment, you seem to be getting to be quite a regular here, I guess it's like when you drive past a car crash, you can't help but slow down to have a look. It's a free forum, no one one makes you click, the title tells you what you are clicking on, there's no excuse.

Wow impressed you bumped the thread 3 times in a row.

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

100% wrong and you keep ignoring all the posts that show you otherwise lizardbones; dross frankly.

The XFire player numbers being tracked could be used to do what you say without assuming any additional number. You use the official numbers given out by EA e.g. 1M on 23rd December, 1.7M twice, average player hours on different occasions. No assumed numbers necessary.

The hard bit - if you do make any projections - would be deciding how accurate the projection was.

Now you may want the total hours played yesterday to the exact second but observers of this thread just go with the trend but I haven't seen anyone of late try to use the numbers in the way you suggest. (Sorry to pull you up on that point.)

Next week we may get more data - depends what EA say.

Maybe EA say 450k and it turns out that XFire is a superb tool at this point in time! Maybe they say 600k - so we have a large margin of error but not that bad. Maybe they say 1.7M in which case we all scratch our heads and look to see exactly what EA said! How many trials?

Then do it. Anyone on these forums, do it. I would like to see it done without assuming any numbers. ** edit starting here ** Calculate a margin of error other than "large". You can't do it and neither can anyone else. There's not enough information there to do it.

XFire is the best we got. Almost the only thing we got.

But seeing its earlier history, where it has predicted the trends of competitors, in spite of their own grossly untrue statements, I am pretty confident in it.

But then again, I don't want to know the exact number of subscribers down to single-digits, I only want a trend. Whether the current number is 100.000 more or less, doesn't matter to me, when the game claims a number almost 2 millions.

Looks like the lull before next xpac comes out. Lots of people are playing on the MoP test server, didn't blizz sell something like 1.4 million annual passes? That's a lot of people who have access to beta.

Also, pretty much all the lines are trending downward, everyone's just waiting for some of the new stuff to hit. D3 comes out in 11 days, GW2 is on the horizon, Tera is out there. Lots of options + people have leveled and geared their alts means they're waiting or doing something else until MoP.

Looks like the lull before next xpac comes out. Lots of people are playing on the MoP test server, didn't blizz sell something like 1.4 million annual passes? That's a lot of people who have access to beta.

Also, pretty much all the lines are trending downward, everyone's just waiting for some of the new stuff to hit. D3 comes out in 11 days, GW2 is on the horizon, Tera is out there. Lots of options + people have leveled and geared their alts means they're waiting or doing something else until MoP.

But it lost 1/4 of players in 3 days... something happened 1-2 may.

Looks like the lull before next xpac comes out. Lots of people are playing on the MoP test server, didn't blizz sell something like 1.4 million annual passes? That's a lot of people who have access to beta.

Also, pretty much all the lines are trending downward, everyone's just waiting for some of the new stuff to hit. D3 comes out in 11 days, GW2 is on the horizon, Tera is out there. Lots of options + people have leveled and geared their alts means they're waiting or doing something else until MoP.

But it lost 1/4 of players in 3 days... something happened 1-2 may.

Also i heard that you had to manually add GW2 to xfire for it to register. I dont use xfire myself so i wouldnt know but if true, that s a lot of people that went trough the hassle.

Just over 2500 - it will be very interesting to see what EA have to say next week.

As for WoW could it be D3 early access? Those that took up the offer will still be WoW subscribers even if they are playing D3.

And financially Blizzard are probably happy to have 12 months @ $7.50 and a D3 sale vs. 6 months (or 2 lots of 3 months) @ $15 less discount and maybe a D3 sale.

To put it in perspective 24M customers playing an average 6 months = a headline 12M subs. 24M customers playing an average 5 months = headline figure of 10M. i.e. customers burning through content quicker. So getting the equivalent of 6 months from people probably makes good business sense. (It will be way more complicated than this but they seem to be seeking to shift the business model away from a pure 'monthly sub' type basis. More like SoE's old access pass.

Just over 2500 - it will be very interesting to see what EA have to say next week.

As for WoW could it be D3 early access? Those that took up the offer will still be WoW subscribers even if they are playing D3.

And financially Blizzard are probably happy to have 12 months @ $7.50 and a D3 sale vs. 6 months (or 2 lots of 3 months) @ $15 less discount and maybe a D3 sale.

To put it in perspective 24M customers playing an average 6 months = a headline 12M subs. 24M customers playing an average 5 months = headline figure of 10M. i.e. customers burning through content quicker. So getting the equivalent of 6 months from people probably makes good business sense. (It will be way more complicated than this but they seem to be seeking to shift the business model away from a pure 'monthly sub' type basis. More like SoE's old access pass.

I know exactly what they're going to say.

"Most of the 1.7 million as mentioned is still with us and were in a good position to grow after patch 1.2"

## Comments

10,910MemberWe are really going to have a conversation about population in a game's beta?

Really?

It is good thing to keep it on the graph to show the flat earthers that XFire does mirror trends, beta weekend finishes population drops to 0. Some of them are quite stubborn because they cannot string thoughts together so well.

Calculate any actual numbers from XFire without assuming some additional numbers. You can't. There is no way to get from XFire's numbers to an actual subscriber count, actual hours played by the player base or any other actual number. You can't even say that the total number of players dropped by a certain percentage. The closest you can get is "Less" or "More" or "No Change".

It's just a poor quality tool to use the way many people on these forums use it.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.122MemberWere not looking for actual numbers, were looking for trends

2,163Member Uncommon100% wrong and you keep ignoring all the posts that show you otherwise lizardbones; dross frankly.

The XFire player numbers being tracked could be used to do what you say without assuming any additional number. You use the official numbers given out by EA e.g. 1M on 23rd December, 1.7M twice, average player hours on different occasions. No assumed numbers necessary.

The hard bit - if you do make any projections - would be deciding how accurate the projection was.

Now you may want the total hours played yesterday to the exact second but observers of this thread just go with the trend but I haven't seen anyone of late try to use the numbers in the way you suggest. Sorry to pull you up on that point but we have gone beyond that - if there still were I would be at your side telling them why they shouldn't.

Next week we may get more data - depends what EA say.

Maybe EA say 450k and it turns out that XFire is a superb tool at this point in time! Maybe they say 600k - so we have a large margin of error but not that bad. Maybe they say 1.7M in which case we all scratch our heads and look to see exactly what EA said! How many trials?

10,910MemberThen do it.

Anyone on these forums, do it.I would like to see it done without assuming any numbers. ** edit starting here ** Calculate a margin of error other than "large". You can't do it and neither can anyone else. There's not enough information there to do it.I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.10,910MemberLook at gervaise1's post. When you say, "We", make sure you know who you're including in the "We".

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.2,163Member UncommonLast time you said this I told you I had already done it and the answer came out at c. 20%. Again you ignored the post. Now on Monday we get more data and we can all have more fun. When EA announce that subs are 3M and rising you can come and say how right you were.

Edit: And sorry about the we - I mean those people who are not after absolutes, happy now? (Probably not).

And because I obviously need to be super accurate I had better say that what we have is more complicated than "simple" polling but the analogy is 'good enough' for this forum. Just so you know however.

2,664Member UncommonTabula Rasa has 0 subcribers and actual played hours 0. http://www.xfire.com/games/tr/Tabula_Rasa/

It'll be intresting to see if you can refute that.

811MemberI have to agree that you can't use the SWTOR numbers to calculate a margin of error, it would end up being so large that a random guess would have a bigger chance of getting the number of players correct.

I have been following the xfire numbers for AoC for a couple of years and if you get one anchor point that isn't in the middle of a large change in population, you can use that to get a nice ballpark number. Funcom haven't released any actual number of players since ... forever, and I was more interested in the income, so I just calculated the income pr xfire player.

Anyway, what I discovered was that if you correct the xfire numbers for the number of total xfire players you could predict the income within maybe 20% margin of error for AoC. The xfire numbers after F2P and large changes in the AoC population has made this pretty unreliable.

My conclusion is that even with a really small number of xfire players for AoC I got a pretty reliable number, the same should be true for SWTOR which has a much larger sample. To me it looks like SWTOR has at least 500k players. The maximum I feel is a bit harder to calculate, so I can only guess that is about 1 million players. The number of subscribers can be higher due to longer subscriptions.

4MemberI have characters on Shadow Hand which ranks #13 out of 123 North American servers on www.torstatus.net

The first month SWTOR launched, during primetime the Sith Fleet would have 250+ players. The current Sith Fleet population during primetime is 110+ players which is a loss of 56% of the playerbase. Rebel Fleet went from 80+ to 30+. My guild would have 20+ members online and now just me or 1 other person.

ALL FACTSBased on the above statistics SWTOR would have a subscriber base of roughly 750k.

Yes the naysayers will say, "not all servers will reflect the same statistics." True, but we can atleast get a close approximation based on a popular server.

I cannot speak to xfire margin of error, etc. as previously mentioned, but the overall trend is a

significant declinein subscriptions. Bioware/EA is completely full of it to say they have retained 1.7 million subscribers. Story after story on the boards at MMORPG.com and SWTOR.com of complete guilds and servers as ghost towns.Just my 2 cents, and very worried about SWTOR's future. Why can't anyone come out with a great sci-fi mmo, we have way too many fantasy based. jeesh. peace out.

3,452Member UncommonYes, what a useless comment.Hey Ref, did you like GW2? I was looking for your opinion on it. All I saw was something about Salem

3,452Member Uncommon3,452Member UncommonLook at gervaise1's post. When you say, "We", make sure you know who you're including in the "We".

114MemberWow impressed you bumped the thread 3 times in a row.

688MemberThis thread is great, nothing like a little schadenfreude. +1

Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!

I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

122Memberhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3_DjiLLDfo

604Member UncommonXFire is the best we got. Almost the only thing we got.

But seeing its earlier history, where it has predicted the trends of competitors, in spite of their own grossly untrue statements, I am pretty confident in it.

But then again, I don't want to know the exact number of subscribers down to single-digits, I only want a trend. Whether the current number is 100.000 more or less, doesn't matter to me, when the game claims a number almost 2 millions.

1,436Member CommonWhat on earth is happening to WoW.

A honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)

2,247Member UncommonLooks like the lull before next xpac comes out. Lots of people are playing on the MoP test server, didn't blizz sell something like 1.4 million annual passes? That's a lot of people who have access to beta.

Also, pretty much all the lines are trending downward, everyone's just waiting for some of the new stuff to hit. D3 comes out in 11 days, GW2 is on the horizon, Tera is out there. Lots of options + people have leveled and geared their alts means they're waiting or doing something else until MoP.

1,436Member CommonBut it lost 1/4 of players in 3 days... something happened 1-2 may.

A honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)

149MemberThe GW2 effect.

Edit:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/349411

Also i heard that you had to manually add GW2 to xfire for it to register. I dont use xfire myself so i wouldnt know but if true, that s a lot of people that went trough the hassle.

779Member UncommonSummer?

We had 30° here :P

1,436Member CommonAre you implying that WoW players are the most outdoor-loving persons in all MMO players?

A honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)

2,163Member UncommonJust over 2500 - it will be very interesting to see what EA have to say next week.

As for WoW could it be D3 early access? Those that took up the offer will still be WoW subscribers even if they are playing D3.

And financially Blizzard are probably happy to have 12 months @ $7.50 and a D3 sale vs. 6 months (or 2 lots of 3 months) @ $15 less discount and maybe a D3 sale.

To put it in perspective 24M customers playing an average 6 months = a headline 12M subs. 24M customers playing an average 5 months = headline figure of 10M. i.e. customers burning through content quicker. So getting the equivalent of 6 months from people probably makes good business sense. (It will be way more complicated than this but they seem to be seeking to shift the business model away from a pure 'monthly sub' type basis. More like SoE's old access pass.

1,436Member CommonSo after a patch some players stop using xFire forever?

A honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)

122MemberI know exactly what they're going to say.

"Most of the 1.7 million as mentioned is still with us and were in a good position to grow after patch 1.2"