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Finally someone that looks past the first expereince ?
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx5OTz2JYzg&feature=player_embedded
Finally someone that looks past the first experience.
Not having any real rewards will make many people leave the game. Maybe Arenanet doesn't really care for that as they allready sold their boxes, but most players will care. In DAoC PvP many people started complaining about their WvW (RvR) after a few weeks as they realised their wasn't any personal reward for playing RvR. then after a few more weeks people started actually leaving because of that. Loosing subs made the DAoC crew that they actually needed things to reward people personal experience for PvPing. And they came up with the realmpoints system. A very grindy system in its core, that didn't feel grindy because the PVP was that much fun. With realmpoints you could buy abbilities and you got titles. Most important is that the system did not unballance PvP, as the first few points (up to about 40%) where easy atainable.
On top of that another point of proof is that when reaching max level in GW and finishing the story, many many people left the game because they felt like not being rewarded for their playtime. I saw some graphics that most of the players left after finishing the Story in PvE between 1 month and 3 months of buying the game. And they almost all left because there werent any rewards. Maybe i am one of those that dares to admit it, but i do like the taste of carrots on a stick. (as long as progression is kept to a minimum and not overdone like in WoW) This goes for PvP and PVE. if people leave the game, this will be the reason number one, because most of the gaemplay is just awesome. Minor rewards can work without unballancing the game, DAoC prooved that pre atlantis expansion. and getting 5 realmpoints feels totally different then geting 53 cupper.
Another point of outright criticisme is not having player names shown in WvW. again you need to think back to DAoC as thats clearly the system they wanted to copy. Players where named in the killspam where very important for immersion intoo the RvR. You knew who was fighting you and who you where fighting with. Certain names kept popping up all the time in killspam. And this renown was very very important for the community building in DAoC. There where no player names on top of the players heads, but only their realmtitels. So while copying this part of DAoC they forgot about the thing that replaced it. Killspam, this allowed people to get renown and a name in PvP without being griefed because of their name getting recognised all the time. Things like this shows me that Arenanet hasn't fully understood what small things made RvR in DAoC so very very special. As allways it was the small things.
THen the criticisme on kjeep doors taking to long to take down. actually she is not complaining about the keepdoors taking to long to take down, but she is complaining about the lack of action during this periode(espescially with undefended keeps), I think they should make the combat around keep doors (NPC part) more action involved. On top of that she complains that mellee people have no place in keep doors action, but she forgets there is no real mellee people (except the guardian) every player should have stacked a ranged weapon when RvRing and doing keep attcks/defenses.
Good to finally hear someone that looks beyound the greatness of the first hours of this tremendous game. People that still think this game will be perfect are so wrong. However it will still be the best available MMO when it releases by far. And everyone will enjoy the game a lot. But i think there are certain things missing that will keep people from leaving.
Sad thing is with the no sub system, Anet will care less about people leaving then games with a subsystem, so i do not think these things will be repaired. DAoC did a tremendous job, changing the game to make it more and more atractive to players aover the first year after release. They added things making the game more attractive to people with criticisme and not making it less attractive to people that allready where happy.
So if Arenanet is truelly listening, they should also listen to this criticisme and not say its not going to happen.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
you watched the vid and what you came away with was you dont get rewarded enough? How about the amount of fun the player gets from it, is this not reward enough for money spent. When i pay to go to the cinema i dont expect to be rewarded with a back massage from the manager while i watch a film i wanna see.
And again i have to be the 1 to say it, Beta is beta, all this was tweeks that can be easy fix's, not game destroying mechanics.
how do we know how long it is going to take for me to get all the end game gear i need?
Yes, from past experiences i have learned that rewards are necessary to keep most of the MMO community playing for more then a few hundred hours.
(your cinema comparisson goes wrong, as vissiting a cinema only takes about 2 hours, which still got you intoo the initial phase of the process. Now compare it with a Harry Potter movie marathon with all the HP movies showing one after the other, is that still enough fun to keep most of the people seated for like 20 hours?)
There is no real endgame gear in GW2. You will find out when you are max level.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Some making the assumption everyone expects to play this game for 7 years.
If my first 150 hours on this game are going to be as amazing as i think they will be. It'll be money good spend.
remember how great old shooters were? guess how many of them you unlocked items in.
guess how many people liked cod 1-2
guess how long people played that (some still do) do they play because of rewards?
hell no
You don't need the reward or achievment in the gameplay in GW2, they have a shop where you can buy it, also works in case you don't have the skill to do it in game aswell. They've thought of everything and it all runs through their shop, for a reasonable price ofc.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
how did you find out?
i read that all the gear you get for doing stuff is statistically equivalent at end game but i saw nothing to indicate how long it would take me to get all the gear i need to optimize, for example, my condition damage based thief in every slot.
edit: a link will do, don't mind reading up somewhere. thx
Rewards scale with level. She was low level.
I do agree with that.
However, many people wil get upset, as they still want to play the game with the best game mechanics after those 150 hours. but they are missing the rewards system. It will give a very unruly community of MMO ers with no place to go. Playing the best game, and still feeling empty after playing it. Just fun is not enough for the majorrity of the MMO players. and there will be an uprise as they dont want to leave the world of Tyria, but still feel unhappy and uncomplete in it.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I remember playing Doom for many many hours, never once did i level up or get rewarded a new shiny to keep me playing. I come from the time when you played games for fun, i started on my dads old spectrum, you played to try and do better than before, this was my reward. To make the assuption that every one needs new shiny stuff to keep us interested is very arogant. yes some people do need this type of incentive its true and fine for them, but im not sure every one is so shallow.
By this logic GW1 would have been a failure... But it wasn't. So, your theory doesn't really hold up to reality so far.
All Valid Points For Sure.
However, what is expressed is a true minority amongst today's gaming populous. If it isn't instant gratification with the ever pursuit of the dangling carrot on a stick, most people wont grasp the concept. "Play for... FUN? What is this nonsense you speak!?! GIVE ME PURPLES OR BLAH BLAH BLAH......" Yea, you get the idea.
We'll see how it goes - but hell, even games today with the 'gear grind' at the end can't seem to retain people anymore. So who knows...
Hey TSW Players http://www.unfair.co/ for Mission guides, Lore Locations and stuff....
i played gw1 when it first came out and played on and off until last year. throughout the years theyve come out with new innovations and always continued to surprise me. even though it was not a true mmorpg, the storytelling and missions were great, the classes were great, the pvp was extremely solid and was constantly being balanced and improved upon, and it had the best grouping/coop experience i've had in an online rpg. even though it is an mmo, when you play gw2, its not to be played like a hardcore mmorpg with a ton of grinding like wow, rift, or aion. you play it because its genuinely fun, not because you feel obligated to because you need to keep up with the rest of your guild in terms of leveling and gear. if you feel like you have finished all what has to be offered in gw2 then great, you can put it down and wait for the next expansion, which in my experience is always extremely fun and well worth the money paid for it.
its already been stated that arenanets purpose is not to suck the soul out of your body and force you to play their game 24/7. heck, they dont even want to drop your main MMO if you dont really want to. just have fun. arenanet doesnt benefit that much from you logging into their gaming 80 hrs a week for the next 2 years. instead they would rather you play until you are done with the content now, then come back whenever they release an expansion (which is the gw1 business model).
if you absolutely need elite items with marginal stats boosts to justify you putting hundred of hours into a game each month, then theres always other traditional and older mmo's you can play to satisfy that need.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
I've never gotten any piece of loot for beating every final fantasy game, dragon quest, elder scroll, fallout 3 and other rpgs. I still love playing this games. This concept of fun and exploration must be foreign.
Again you are basing everything on your assumptions.
Have you seen what level 30 - 80 contents all about?
Also you don't need to be chasing after gears to have fun.
That is one of the most negative concept of how WOW brainwashing players to make them stay in sub.
You need to get away from the stupid WOW braindead P2P mthly subs grinding mindsets.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
This game will seperate those who actually like Role playing games from those who, well like loot treadmills. So i don't expect u guys to like it. I don't expect folk who need "Loot" to enjoy a real role playing game. I don't expect them to have played single player games like fallout 3 or final fantasy or any game where the adventure is what hte game is.
It's amazing to observe these types of players and wonder how this genre lost its way to people who would never even play the single player supposed, ins[iration for these games.
I feel the same. No matter how much many people hate the "WoW" model, with progression based on gear, i really feel that the uniformization of gear at max level, combined with no personal WvW rewards will bore lots of people, even if they do not feel it / admit it now. Sure, it is fun, for a month, or three, but the personal rewards are core elements of RPG games. And not everyone is interested in cosmetic rewards only (i would say "most people are not interested", but i cannot prove it, it's just my feeling). I'm not a gear whore, but i feel that GW2's success really depends on high populated servers.
Could you maybe define 'reward system' please.
My guess if you talking either about, end-game raiding, PvP gear system, PvE gear system.
If your talking end-game raiding for the 2% that actually does it. Your right there is non. However there is still the hardmode dungeons for them. If those are not rewarding enough for them. Then yes this game is not for them.
If your talking PvP with gear rewards. Well, all i can say is this. The fact PvP will be great is because there really isn't a gear grind. PvP gear BREAKS the balance in PvP. Many pvp'ers in for example WoW (gear dependent game) don't give a rats ass about gear. Trust me when i tell you that the PvP gear system GW is using is 10x better. Also in the long run.
If your talking PvE gear system. Yea well maybe. People like to progress their character However many people also know that better gear make previous content obsolete so i doubt they'll care about it in the end. Don't forget the gear sets you can grind from hardmode dungeons eh. Because that is basicly the same thing.
What reward system do you want to see OP?
I hope it's not the traditional one...
SexuaLobster's Grease Portal
The reward for Structured PvP is Glory which is used to buy cosmetic PvP armor.
The main reward for WvW is Influence which is used to buy buffs for your guild. Another big reward you get from WvW is the Power of the Mists which gives your entire server buffs. You can also gain Orbs of Power which give your entire WvW team a buff.
Does every game need to have the same type of reward system or can a game have a unique reward system for their game?
You as a player may not get known by the other team but your guild can capture keeps in WvW that will fly your banners. That may not be as personal but the game is called Guild Wars 2 not Single Dude Who is a Badass 2.
Does every game need the same reward system or endgame system to keep players? Isn't it possible that players who genuinly love the game and are having fun playing it can play without the grind carrot at the end of the stick? If you are open to new ways of playing MMO's and games in general than what they offer will probably be enough for you as long as you are having fun. If you have your blinders on and are only interested in what every other game has given you then maybe this isn't the game for you.
Of course beta is beta and Anet is looking for feedback.
GW1 actually still have plenty of players even though a lot quit after clearing one of the campaigns.
But what keep most going there is fun, titles and PvP honor. If you want to grind gear there is almost every other MMO out there.
I don´t play for any of the above reasons, I play for the challenge. As long as the game keep challenging me I will play it, but if you get bored after 150 hours and quit until the next expansion that is fine too.
It is not really about being greedy as some people here say, it is about making a game for people who want something different, and for the ANET fans.
Some comments on the vid:
First... I'm surprised she didn't talk about more. I actually watched a recording of her GW2 stream, and part of it was... painful is a bit of an understatement. She definitely was playing like a WoW player (and I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, just that the game is setup quite a bit differently, and has a completely different mindset to go with it.) I found myself at times thinking 'omg...please loot the mobs you just killed, you're complaining about not having enough money / loot and there's like 15 dead things around you waiting to be looted, lol'. It was hard to watch at times, and reminded me a lot of some of the other livestreamers that didn't seem to understand the game in the slightest.
That said, I'm very surprised she had such a positive video for GW2. I was expecting the usual 'it's not dynamic, quests are all the same, I couldn't log in, bla bla bla'. This video actually had some good points:
1) Rewards. I'm going to assume that she's mostly talking about money. She makes a point to gribe about the 50 copper, and I have to say that I agree. In WvW it's very easy to go broke, even if you are the one doing the roflstomping. What I feel needs to be done is both A) increase the gold rewards for capturing a keep (even just a few silver would be fine. You should have at least enough for a few repairs, after taking a major keep). And it would be good to have an auto-loot feature in WvW. It's really easy to miss looting the enemy players you kill, and in big battles, you don't want to stop just to loot everyone you've killed. You want to stay focused on the objective at hand. Making this a togglable feature would be best.
2) Melee vs. Ranged. I'm really getting tired of this, but I suppose I have to bring this up again. While yes, it is easier to stand back and spam AoE (you can basically do that w/ out thinking), it doesn't mean melee are weaker, or less useful. While I don't think it'll happen, I think these same people that are whining about melee, will be the same people that whine about melee being overpowered when they get buffed.
Melee, as of right now, DESTROY anything they get in range. Unless you make your melee 100% defensive specced, you can kill a character, as it stands right now, in a couple seconds as a melee. Hell a properly specced warrior can 1-shot you if you aren't careful. Furthermore, melee have skills to ignore damage, conditions, and reflect projectiles. What a lot of people are complaining about (when it comes to the PvP) are zerg mentallity. It's easy to get rocked as a melee in a zerg, if you or your teamm8s are clueless (which is most of the time, in a zerg). An organized group is another story entirely.
Furthermore, I can speak from experience, that melee are very useful in WvW, you just need to be more clever about it. There's the obvious (get on the ram w/ a guardian or some friends), and your teamm8s should be taking the oil out ASAP, making that not a problem. If you want to be smarter, though, what I was doing during part of the beta weekend, was rolling with thief's, necros, and mesmers. A good thief / necro can pull people off the walls using either a fear or a grapple. This not only puts them in melee range, but makes them extremely vulnerable, and puts them in a spot that's nearly impossible to be ressed from. Furthermore (depending on the keep) there are some tricks you can do to teleport your allies either inside the walls, or on top of them. How long do you think those defenders are going to last when they have a melee train charging their flanks?
- My point is basically there are strategies that exist in WvW, that favor melee over ranged. Currently, most players weren't using these, and I only saw 1 or 2 organized guilds using these (team legacy was one of them). Most people were still figuring things out, and I think these players should not be commenting on balance, when it comes to things like this. Pokket shows me a video of her mind-numblingly banging on a reinforced keep door, I show her a video of a team that knows how to do that quickly. Trying to balance around short-sighted assumptions, will not make the game more even, it will do the exact opposite. Which brings me to:
3) Keep Doors. I'm sure she's not alone in this complaint, however. Keeps are supposed to be difficult to take. It's not something you should easily be able to do w/ a small PUG. Balancing for that would result in keeps being almost worthless to defend, and would quickly turn into a base trading game.
Furthermore, you may have noticed that as she's talking about it, the footage shows them attacking a REINFORCED GATE. I know she just pulled that off the web, but i'm not sure she knows what that means. You can upgrade your keeps defenses (for a price) to make it harder to take. Upgraded keeps are not supposed to be easy. There's a number of things you can do against an upgraded keep, but a lot of the time it means you're going to need siege weapons (yet another thing melee is good for). You can try and brute force the door. You can bombard the defenders on the walls. You can say 'screw the gate' and bombard one of the actual walls (and quite a few people have taken keeps this way. It's harder to defend against).
If someone is repair spamming a keep, 1 or 2 things needs to happen. You need to cut off their supply (they can't repair w/ out supply). Or you need to attack multiple points (spread out the supply they are using). Again, it all comes down to strategy. Here's an example of some intelligent WvW play, with a smaller guild going up against a much larger force. Just to give you guys some perspective on what is possible. (heads up, it's long)
http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654818
http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654335
This. For a lot of people the WvWvW and competitive PvP will be enough to play for a long time. There is a lot to do. The OP talks about people getting bored after 150-200 hours. Bloody hell, if I get that much hours out of a game I only pay for the box, then I'm already glad. It's money well spent! To be honest, I'm done with most MMORPG after 200 hours. That is, if they don't release new content. I can't imagine ArenaNet NOT releasing new content. So no, I don't believe that the reasoning of the OP will hold.
You are syaing that people do not play games purely for cosmetic rewards? Do you actually game much outside of gear based MMOs? People will play for HOURS for cosmetic reasons. Hell, even for achievements. Not everyone is motivated by the gear treadmill.
As for the review... it's Pokket... the girl who found it so difficult to be crtiical of SWtOR for whatever reason... /shrug
You are absolutely right in what you say. Some of us just feel that this approach is not enough to keep the people interested for long. This, combined with the fact that the game mechanics favor group play. Running in empty zones handling events on your own is not my idea of fun (and i guess most of us agree here).
As for previous posters: the comparison with Doom and FF and whatever single player game with no loot is just plain wrong. Yes you had progression in those games. Your character progressed thru the game, thru the story. Until you killed the final boss or whatever. Then it was over. After you "finished" Doom, did you just reload the last floor 100 times to play it again and again and again, because "it was fun"? It was fun, no doubt, but now you did it, it's done.
It's not about loot or level-ups. With uniformized gear and only buffs as rewards at the endgame, you have no progression for your character. Once you experienced every aspect of winning, you're done, you have no progression, just repeating what you already did. That usually turns off RPG players. Not trying to bash anyone's ideas here, actually i'd like to be proven wrong, i guess we'll have to wait and see.
Yes, gears and levels bring a false sense of progression, but that's at least something to keep people interested and not jump to other games. Even in the over-criticized WoW, they have to bring content updates (new dungeons, new raids) for the people to log. I agree, GW2 being B2P has an advantage here, as you can go back to it along with content updates. My bet is we're not gonna see many free content updates, but expansions, either classical style or a la GW1 style.