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My thoughst are GW2 does it better.. because in GW2 the skills still go off whether you are in range or not.. so there is a sense of aiming to that degree without it getting clunky or outta control like in TERA. It also lets the skills in GW2 be more flashy and do more interesting effects than what you can do in TERA.
Originally posted by natuxatu My thoughst are GW2 does it better.. because in GW2 the skills still go off whether you are in range or not.. so there is a sense of aiming to that degree without it getting clunky or outta control like in TERA. It also lets the skills in GW2 be more flashy and do more interesting effects than what you can do in TERA.
But skills in TERA can be cast whether or not you are in range. However skills in GW 2 are more flashy. This is both good in that it's prettier to look at but bad in that it can be harder to distinguish what is going on, especially in pve if you have a large group of people doing your DE.
I prefer GW2's combat honestly. I can see what certain people are saying about some skills not 'feeling weighty enough', but that is definitely a skill-skill, basis. Some of the skills in GW2 do have animation lock, while nearly all of them in TERA do. While I do agree for some things, having animation lock does make sense, I feel it ultimately accomplishes nothing but to slow down the combat. I prefer GW2's method, because you are basically free to move for weaker spells, but if you want to land a harder hitting attack, you need to set yourself (and the enemy) up for it. A good example of this would be using bull's strike -> hundred blades. You literally charge & knockdown the enemy, then follow up by slicing him up like processed meat. It feels impactful, and it makes combat more engaging.
Imho, when it comes to the whole 'momentum' argument, I feel like TERA overexaggerates it (it's a lot of swing - pause, swing - pause), which is nice, but again doesn't really switch up the combat a whole lot. You especially feel this on classes like the slayer / berserker. There are some classes that can speed up their attacks quite a bit (sorcerer), but hen that happens it also looses it's impact. It feels spammy, and not because other people are spamming skills, but because you are.
Yes, GW2 can get a little zergy, but it also rewards smart play. TERA's combat just feels a bit easy imho, and there are a lot of telegraphs going on, which you don't get as much of in GW2.
As for the WvW that some people are talking about. Here is an excellent example of a battle in which an inferior (but more organized) team was able to take out a much larger force. Just a heads up, it's long (about an hour and a half).
http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654818 - part1
http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654335 - part2
There's another version of part2, from the strike team inside the keep, but it has a long intro commentary. Game footage starts @ 5:30.
I would have liked Tera's combat a lot better if it wasn't for the animation root. You can say what you want about it but I didn't like it. GW2's combat may be not as action oriented but it felt more action oriented because of that animation root in Tera.
Originally posted by Zen_Blade Originally posted by RKameL For me the fact that at Tera you gotta stay still to do skills puts me out of the game. Im a bit tired of that. I played GW2 beta and was surprised how the combat system works, always moving, dodging, jumping and doing skills at same time, it turns it very fluid and was what i most liked. Its harder at beginning but it has a lot more action going arround, and makes it much better IMO.
Interesting point about some skills "stopping" your movement. I have been hearing a lot of complaints in GW2 about ranged being overpowered vs. melee, and wonder if that's the single biggest reason. If you can kite everything, why have melee for the most part? That could also by why TERA chose to restrict the movement on many abilities (Some you can move and execute).
You would think that it should be the opposite but unfortunately you cannot dodge in Guildwars and most MMORPGs.
My biggest worry about GW2 is that I won't be able to have an original build that works and that no one else uses (like we can in the first one).
The vids of TERA that I saw didn't make me want to play the game . ... so thats why I am in here reading comments. Having to stand still while casting usually bugs me enough to prevent a game from being my favorite.
NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.
Originally posted by aesperus http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654818 - part1 http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654335 - part2 There's another version of part2, from the strike team inside the keep, but it has a long intro commentary. Game footage starts @ 5:30. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZHsfa6gEs&feature=player_embedded
Those vids look pretty cool but what scared me most was the amount of times that I saw one button pressed continuously while attacking. This worries me a lot. That would never happen in the first one pretty much.
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious Originally posted by Zen_Blade Originally posted by RKameL For me the fact that at Tera you gotta stay still to do skills puts me out of the game. Im a bit tired of that. I played GW2 beta and was surprised how the combat system works, always moving, dodging, jumping and doing skills at same time, it turns it very fluid and was what i most liked. Its harder at beginning but it has a lot more action going arround, and makes it much better IMO.
You can both rest assured. I'll answer you in order.
First I'd like to reiderate that this is beta. Being so latency issues and especially balancing issues are everywhere. The game will go through the same "beta flux" stage that all games with a respectable beta period go through. By the next beta ranged will likely be nerfed, then buffed the next time, and nerfed again until it is just right for release.
Given that the ranged was actually fine. You can't kite everything. All characters backpeddle slower than they do running forwards. This means you will almost always end up in melee anyways. Melee also does more than three times the damage ranged does. The only time you could possibly stay as ranged is if you have some kind of melee fence blocking you. If you've played skyrim then the ranged balancing is similar. Yes you can kite to some degree but backpeddling is slow so you can only do it for so long or if you appropriately use and land snares and reposition, etc.
The only time playing ranged is easier than melee is if you are doing a DE against a boss enemy. If the melee characters are up front holding the bosses attention and you stand outside of AoE range then you can just sit there letting off arrows/bullets/etc. As you are at range though you are not contributing or damaging the boss nearly as much as the melee characters which means you get less DE points to spend on the good rewards. Ultimately it's a risk/reward system.
All characters are given ranged options for a reason. Most melee skill sets involve distance closers or ranged attacks even. For example, my theif double dagger came with a move on slot 4 to throw one of the daggers and cripple up to four enemies.
You can't just kite everything unless you begin really far away, its a small mob, and you use snares. Otherwise they will catch up to you eventually. Again though ranged damage is pitiful in comparison to melee damage. So if you really want to take something down you stab it or hack at it.
Ranged only becomes viable to use as a sole method of combat if you are accompanied by others to distract the enemy. It really is a genius pay off method. Melee takes more risk and thus deals more damage. Ranged takes WAY longer to kill things and eventually gets caught up with anyways unless you do some crafty gymnastics to keep at ranged.
Ranged has drawbacks and plusses just like every other weapon. They deal far less damage but are generally safer.
Again though, they are definately going to be subject to the beta flux. Anet already commented on them and noted that they are "too safe" even though they deal way less damage. They were going to experiment with threat and ranged characters apparently. The biggest issue is that they are only too safe when you have a fence of melee in front of you. You can just stand behind them and shoot, safe from all the AoE. Your not doing any damage but as a player some don't care. Thus the next beta will feature a ranged aggro I believe (or at least it was something Anet was considering). Meaning if you are just standing behind your melee buddies firing arrows AoE's and cripples will start comming your way. We'll see how it develops. I think its fine as is though.
Now then, on to the second concern. You can definately play with a unique build. The problem in GW1 was that all the options made it impossible to balance. Here Anet has a specific set of abilities with criteria (heals, utilities, weapon skills, etc) to help keep them balanced. Given that I didn't feel any ding in customizable play. You can do whatever you want with four weapon slots (main and off hand plus switch) and then you have full customizability of your heal skills, three utilities, and your elite skill.
I often found people with combo's I'd never even think of. There was a thief with a dagger in his main and a shortsword in his off hand. The dagger gave him mobility and the shortsword gave him many damager attacks. It was very interesting. You will definately be able to experiment with many builds.
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious Originally posted by aesperus http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654818 - part1 http://www.twitch.tv/okuraku/b/316654335 - part2 There's another version of part2, from the strike team inside the keep, but it has a long intro commentary. Game footage starts @ 5:30. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZHsfa6gEs&feature=player_embedded
You can set one attack to be your auto attack. For example most attacks with a thief use initiative. So the first attack is generally devoid of this cost to allow you to build up. Guardians have long cool downs, etc. That's not you actually spamming an attack so much as it is you doing a combo. Its akin to hitting square in GoW. Its just the basic attack button.
Ya, honestly I wouldn't pay too much attention to that. That 1 button you're talking about is pretty much always the auto-attack.
Except, in the first game you had to equip a combo (like slash, gash, final thrust), in GW2 that's been combined into one skill. While on the surface it might seem more simple, what it does is actually allow you to build your character for more versatility. In the first game, the vast majority of the builds cenetered around doing 1 thing. There were some balanced builds, but not many.
Also, a lot of the times the 1st attack (auto-attack) is being used to either save cooldowns for later strikes, or because the CDs are already being used. (talking about the elementalist here). For other classes, the 1st attack can be comboed to also get some nice effects, if you know what you're doing.
If we are talking just about the combat then is a hard decision for me, GW2 have a much faster combat but the response of the skills is not that good, Tera have better concept on aiming but the skills are very limited.
Just the combat "per se" and not taking in mind what are you figthing i think GW2 is better, or atleast better for my tastes, much faster and more options is what im looking for, i liked Tera's also but is like playing in slow motion compared to GW2.
This is my exp. with only a BW in GW2 mostly in structured pvp and with a level 36 or so in Tera, dont remeber exaclty because it was more than a year ago.
Anyway both have much better combat system than the average MMO in the market.
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious ... The vids of TERA that I saw didn't make me want to play the game . ... so thats why I am in here reading comments. Having to stand still while casting usually bugs me enough to prevent a game from being my favorite.
That's a weird comment to hear if you expect it from somebody who played a considerable number of mmorpgs. The majority of them root you in place while using skills. A lot have classes that are more mobile than others and some classes have both mobile and immobile skills, but the balance is that the immobile skills are usually much much stronger than the mobile equivalent. All in the name of balance of course.
Combat balance ...
... is something that very few people commented on, despite being one of the most important aspects of an enjoyable combat experience. Tera's combat system, despite their perceived flaws (yes, imo it's a perception thing) is a very balanced game, both in terms of class balance, melee vs ranged, casters vs physical, healers vs non healers, hybrids vs pures and so on. No matter how you perceive their system, it works, it's fun and it seems to be balanced not only at max level but also before, which is not a small feat.
GW2 has obviously no mid game balance to worry about and they are still sturggling to achieve it. Which of course it's fine, the game is still in beta and even if it was out the balancing is an ongoing process.
One last word regarding balance. Both games had to cut certain corners to achieve it (well, one is still struggling but as I said it's natural). Tera is restricting stats variations within each class, something that seem to be the norm in eastern games. GW2 is restricting gear and stat variations and is relying more on skills to provide gameplay variety. In the end, GW2 gives a bigger illusion of variety, but in reality both games restrict players to a certain cap. The difference is that it's a lot harder for Tera players to reach that cap (max level, best gear, best crystals & glyphs) than it is for GW2 players (instant max with best gear with the press of a button).
Originally posted by Xasapis Originally posted by Sid_Vicious ... The vids of TERA that I saw didn't make me want to play the game . ... so thats why I am in here reading comments. Having to stand still while casting usually bugs me enough to prevent a game from being my favorite.
Thanks for your feedback. You only "instant max" in PvP. This insures nobody is frusterated out of their skull and is what makes WvWvW possible. Otherwise WvWvW would be locked to everyone under max level less they want to be frusterated to hell.
I didn't quite understand the statement that there's no mid game balance? Excuse my density but what do you mean? It's always been much harder to balance GW games because your never sure what skills a player has chosen. They could come into combat with any combination of skills.
In a normal MMO you know that they are comming into combat with all of them basically. This makes things more difficult because your not really sure what the player has or doesn't have.
I wouldn't really call either game cutting corners but they do sacrifice systems to achieve balance, absolutely. Your absolutely right too about stat restrictions.
How does GW2 restrict gear? Unless you mean only in PvP? I found lots of gear on my travels.
It matters little to the mobs you are fighting if your class is balanced or overpowered, thus my previous comment was solely based on PvP. By mid game balance, I was referring to the open world PvP and how you have to defend yourself in the world in a PvP server. GW2 offers only structured PvP at max level in a restricted area, therefore they don't have to worry about mid game balance.
Also there is a gear cap in GW2 (and in Tera obviously) that you achieve when you enter the WvWvW zone, which has little to do with what you're wearing in the PvE world. That was the cap I was talking about.
Originally posted by Jayaris People don't understand why there is Animation lock, they think you should have full control of your character at all times. If you don't like animation lock (there are a multitude of games that are designed to include it) then you won't like this combat system, chances are you don't like action games in general. I like animation lock for the following reasons : - It makes attacks more tangible, being able to hurl spells while running just feels implausible a warrior would realistically have momentum to consider. - It makes landing your attacks more important. - It's helps balance the classes.
First of all to get the GW2 vs Tera out of the Post. Both are better than the traditional tab targeting MMO Combats (WoW and other with Global Cool Downs, or DAoC and other without Global Cool Downs - and i prefered here the version without GCD), but both a far from perfect. The truth is i didnt played one MMO, or Game in general with a really good Melee/Ranged Combat, they are all lacking and try to define to how it could work.
Now to the Quote.
Animation lock is not really the problem, because it is true that any attack should have some amount of momentum and you should not instantly during one attack fire off the other. BUT, the animation, and withit the animation lock is insanly high in TERA and in most so called Action Combat Games(or lets call them Console or Gamepad Games), and that is why a lot of ppl dont like it that much. It is just not realistic to as it is, and even more it is boring and mind rubbing.
Lets forget any technically limitations, and lets talk or discuss how a melee/ranged combat system should be.
As i said no combat system i ever played was perfect, but mount&blade was at least a good move in the right direction, limited, but at least the right direction.
You were able to swing your Sword(or any weapon, or let say attack) in any direction, as much as you could Block/Parry in any direction. You also got some momentum with two different effects. First of all an attack with a 2Handed Sword took more time in execution(but not by any means as long as in Tera or similar games) than with a 1Handed Sword, and you got some extra Dmg if you attacked in full movement(from horse or foot). Also the mounted combat was the first mounted combat worth mentioned, because you could not instant turn your mount back or in any direction, you got the momentum of speed, it felt natural. The ranged combat was FPS like, but your Arrow was influenced by gravitation(but not wind), and again extra dmg for the momentum of the arrow.
All that was good and a move in the right direction. But then they stopped. That is it was lacked with the mound&blade combat. But there were no special moves(Skills), no riposte or anything like that. But how should they look? What skills would be cool or would improve combat? I think it should be reactional styles, similar to real fencing. If you block/parry, you got a chance of a riposte, a fast counter attack.. and so on and so forth. Such a combat system would be a system i want to see in the future. GW2 and Tera are all nice and good, but both are just tiny steps from the traditional mmo combat.
There is nothing to compare TERAs combat is atm the best action combat u can get anyone saying otherwise is a lier or fanboy.
Originally posted by Xasapis It matters little to the mobs you are fighting if your class is balanced or overpowered, thus my previous comment was solely based on PvP. By mid game balance, I was referring to the open world PvP and how you have to defend yourself in the world in a PvP server. GW2 offers only structured PvP at max level in a restricted area, therefore they don't have to worry about mid game balance. Also there is a gear cap in GW2 (and in Tera obviously) that you achieve when you enter the WvWvW zone, which has little to do with what you're wearing in the PvE world. That was the cap I was talking about.
Ahh ok, I see. Yeah GW2 doesn't really have to worry about midgame balance in PvP because everyone is buffed to a similar point.
Yes, your right though. Both have gear caps and GW2 doesn't need to balance PvP at the 40th level, etc.
Originally posted by Otomox There is nothing to compare TERAs combat is atm the best action combat u can get anyone saying otherwise is a lier or fanboy.
Wow. I've explained why calling someone a fanboy is baseless in my other posts. People like what they like and have different values than you do. People are not blind to their own values and thus being a fanboy is impossible in the sense of the word where it is used to mean 'a blind follower'. If someone enjoys a game then they enjoy it.
Moving on though I believe GW2 combat was better because i had more fun with it. I can also admit that Tera is a fun game still, although I had more fun with GW2 Tera is a nice game.
So which of those am I?
I have had a lot of fun playing games where I had to stand still during attacks but my point is that all of my favorite games that I have played for years and still love all allow me to move while I attack. I guess that it is just a preference of mine but I have noticed others here sharing the same experience. I generally think that it is funner to be able to move around while attacking. AoC was able to make up for it by having awesome graphics and fatalities so that my standing still may be shoving a sword through someone's face but all in all I am more likely to subscribe longer to games that allow me to move freely during combat. Running around while tab-targeting auto-attack may be funner than having to stand still while fighting with a manual aim in my opinion . .. and this is coming from someone who prefers manual aim. I hate having to stand still while attacking . .....!! I think that I enjoy it the most in the original Guildwars but its pretty rare that I use any skills that freeze me up like that (I am 99% PVP in that game).
Tera - needs aiming - not interested
GW2 - limited to 12(?) or some such abilities max - not interested
Originally posted by Nightshade55 Now then, on to the second concern. You can definately play with a unique build. The problem in GW1 was that all the options made it impossible to balance. Here Anet has a specific set of abilities with criteria (heals, utilities, weapon skills, etc) to help keep them balanced. Given that I didn't feel any ding in customizable play. You can do whatever you want with four weapon slots (main and off hand plus switch) and then you have full customizability of your heal skills, three utilities, and your elite skill. I often found people with combo's I'd never even think of. There was a thief with a dagger in his main and a shortsword in his off hand. The dagger gave him mobility and the shortsword gave him many damager attacks. It was very interesting. You will definately be able to experiment with many builds.
Somehow I think that it will be limited compared to the first one because to be honest I have more fun with the game being imbalanced everytime people discover a leet build. Its especially cool discovering a leet build that you do not share and keep to yourself in the first one. This is always the funnest after patches when things may be imbalanced.
Do I care about bringing some PVE toon into combat? No. This is not why I play Guildwars and not why I think its one of the best MMORPGs out there today. I have had the most fun in that game whenever changes were made when I was able to create a unique build that was highly overpowered until it was nerfed. Somehow I doubt that GW2 will have as many OP builds to discover. Sure you can call me a poor-sport but experimenting with builds and coming up with one that was overpowered was extremely fun. It especially feels good knowing that the developers are keeping unique builds in mind as they came across them and even came out with additional skills useful mostly for that particular build. I feel that way about starburst since as far as I know, I was the first successful AOE-toucher that I had come across. I came up with an assassin build that was ridiculously over-powered as well that made me want to play for a couple weeks straight because it felt like I always earned glad points no matter what fail team I was in. For over a year I have been farming RA with a necro build that nobody else uses but I have a lot of luck with . .. and the only reason that I feel that its not overpowered is because of the weakness vs Eles. I have had moments with this build I currently use though when I soloed a team 1vs4 many times (vs melee since Im mostly anti-melee) and had people gaping over it. Hehehe I hope I get the same experiences in the 2nd one. The only reason its so cool is because NOBODY ELSE DOES IT! There are other build that have and can today but its a pretty good feeling when I am one-of-a-kind and have been for years.
Originally posted by Adamantine Tera - needs aiming - not interested GW2 - limited to 12(?) or some such abilities max - not interested
I will try both games - Tera tonight
However, the above statement about GW2 is wrong. You have 17+ abilities in GW2 available in any given combat. Some classes have much more (especially the elementalist).
Another erroneous data point in this thread is that GW2 is a tab-target game. It is not. Many people played like that during the week end - but it does not actually work like that. Having a target does two things:
(1) Enables information about that mob in your target window (health, buffs, debuffs) as well as showing whether your abilities are in range or out of range of the selected target.
(2) With a range attack it is the beacon or direction of that ranged attack. Please observe that it does not mean that the ranged attack will hit that target - it is just the 'aim' direction.
In melee you hit whatever is in front of you with your melee attacks - it has nothing to do with what you have as a target.
With a ranged attack, your arrow/fireball whatever is shot in the direction of your selected target but will hit the first structure on the way (barrel, other enemy, wall) - if the 'target' moves fast enough the ranged attack will hit thin air. If someone moves into the line of fire they can be like the secret service and eat the bullet.
Net-net: There is no tab target in GW2.
Looking forward to play Tera tonight
I'll be in the Samael EU PvP server if anyone is interested or got questions.
What I have experienced:
First off I played Tera before the BWE of GW2. I was really really hyped about GW2 and watched over 100+ hours of YouTube content about this game. Tera however.... I came across by coincidence.I thought well lets pre-purchase this game since it looked nice on graphics and the combat system was refreshing for me to say the least. I first participated in the closed beta of Tera and I have to say that I had a lot of fun, with the game itself and the community in the game. Very helpful peeps! So the beta was over and I thought well I like this game, this I will be playing until GW2 is released.
Yeeeaaah GW2 BWE is started. I joined a guild way before the BWE begun and we started playing. After 3 hours non stop login issues and DC's we finally logged in successful :P. Then the slaps in the face begun:
1. The performance of this game is straight-out CRAP. I run a 2600k @ 5.1 ghz and two 7970's on water oc'd to 1300/1600, a beast i would say. This game (Beta) runs @ 35 fps average utilizing 30% max of my machine. Before anyone starts bragging it is Beta, I know that but if they launch this game in a couple of months IT WILL NOT significantly improve, mark my words. I have enough experience with this shizzle. Also lmao when ppl say they do this on purpose hehehe..... what? You choose to slap ppl's faces on purpose so they go off to other games? mmm yeah I can see the logic of that.... NOT.
2. I was really really positive about the fact that GW2 is skill based. The scaling to lvl 80 in PvP sounded like music in my ears. So after 2 hours PvE I needed to test the PvP. SLAP SLAP SLAP.......... boring as .....[fill it in yourself].
3. The personal story OMG. This is another "Unique Selling Point". Well it is hyped big time IMO. It is instanced all the way and it feels fake and clunky.
4. WvW?! I was so waiting for this massive massive bg where servers compete................well it is one big lagfest where everybody is just hitting random skills because everybody is running like 10 fps and can't see sh*t what is happening. It just doesn't feel like a organised battle when there are over 50 ppl involved.
I can go on 4 ever unfortunately but this is just my expierence. The fact that I played Tera before GW2 made me realize that Tera is the game for me. It is much more polished and the combat system is better 4 me. Also I think that Tera is a good hybrid of gear and skill based. It's just my opinion and I really think everybody should determine based on OWN EXPERIENCE. I just can't stand ppl judging one game or another if they lack any experience. I was a true GW fan but now?? No sorry............. Elvis left the building.
(I'm not a native speaker of English so sry if I made stupid mistakes in the WOT above! Peace and have fun with either of the games.)
shoulda just wrote. who has more fanboys on this site. saying gw2 combat is better then teras LMAO!!! Anet paying you guys to say that or what?! again...LMAO
Hero EvermoreGuild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
Originally posted by deziwright shoulda just wrote. who has more fanboys on this site. saying gw2 combat is better then teras LMAO!!! Anet paying you guys to say that or what?! again...LMAO
The combats work better for the games they're built around. GW2's combat is fast, flowing and full of action in the GW2 universe. Tera's is the same in the Tera universe. There really are no valid comparisons when you look at the overall picture. One's designed for a trinity-free, self-reliance, with active dodging and controlling and mitigory skills to avoid damage, shared support to help allies, targetting for skills that require it (but most don't), etc. The other is built to give an action based combat but around a more traditional style of MMO. It's like trying to argue which is better at combat, an Apache helicopter or an F14 fighter. Each is great in their designed roles.
If you tried to overlay Tera combat in GW2, or GW2 combat in Tera, they both would fail. The games are built with different core values, and the combat styles reflect that.
Oderint, dum metuant.