I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
Here's the problem with your statement...
Developers don't care about SWTOR's failure so it means absolutely little to them in regards to starting sandbox games. What they look for are the 'successful' MMO's. Just like with many things in life if someone sees another using a certain method that gains them success they tend to try to immulate that direction for themselves to gain that success. If they try to learn anything from SWTOR's difficulties (as I won't call it a failure with the amount of subs it has) it will be the innovate their direction more like GW2 or TSW is doing. It won't be 'Let's chunk the whole theme park idea altogether and go completely against the main stream!'
For AAA companies that is too much of a risk and gamble. They can't go to their boards and executivies pitching an idea that has not shown an inkling of success other than a niche market and say 'Hey! Give me your money for me to try this completely revolutionizing idea even if we have no data to back it up!' Business doesn't work like that. Smaller or indie companies can take that type of gamble but for AAA's it's a heavy risk that most won't come toward with a ten foot pole.
So no, SWTOR's failures does nothing for sandboxers but it may do something for innovation toward the themepark direction.
whether or not ToR fails, sandboxes are still niche, and most people dont care about them, so if you call people not caring about it winning then ya sure, snadboxers win.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
Not sure what this has to do w/ sandboxers, but I'm all for more innovative / interesting games. So far I'm really enjoying GW2. While I've played sandboxes in the past that I really enjoyed, I feel like they tend to have more problems than they solve. For one I hate dealing w/ gankers & griefers. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I tend to always bump into them, and it's always very annoying.
That said, GW2 kinda puts itself somewhere inbetween the standard themepark & sandbox. It's not completely open, but it has a lot of freedom, in a balanced sort of way.
However, if what you're looking for is an actual sandbox, Archage is looking to be a pretty decent one from what I've heard.
Are you trolling? This is absolutely the worst possible game for sandbox players. It takes everything sandbox players hate and makes them even worse. This is the most mainstream game ever made with one of the biggest pay to win cash shop's in any western MMO.
Go back and re-read my post. Not just the Title.
Well, the title is a bit misleading. SWTOR is a win for sandbox players and MMO's. The other side (themepark) losing doesn't necessarily mean a win for the Sandbox or even MMO's in general. When MMO = big risk, stay away, then all MMO's could lose if TOR fails as badly as you claim.
The thing everyone needs to be aware is. Check the SWTOR figures after GW2 comes out. Many people are just using it has a place to hang out and have no home, or are tied in for 3-6 months. Lets face it. if you are burned out on WOW, after LOTRO they are not a lot of alternatives... until now (Tera, GW2). SWTOR's figures will be half in 3 months.
I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
I think SWTOR will ruin the chance of a game company spending this much money on a AAA MMO again. I think they've found their cost ceiling for the genre.
I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.
Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:
Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?
So, bascially, you have no data of any kind and your entire argument is based on your personal assumption clouded by bias. Got it. Thank you for clearing that up.
You do see the humor in using forum posts to prove your point in a forum post that is a stellar example of how forum posts are not necessarily based on any level of fact or reality, right?
They said server pops were low a while ago.. That's nothing new. The OP's argument was based on the statement that SWTOR was a costly failure - a claim that can neither be confirmed nor refusted by PCU.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
I think SWTOR will ruin the chance of a game company spending this much money on a AAA MMO again. I think they've found their cost ceiling for the genre.
I agree. I'd speculate that we're going to be looking at future MMOs being developed for a fraction of that cost, probably in the range of whatever they feel they can recouperate from initial box sales and preorders.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Are you trolling? This is absolutely the worst possible game for sandbox players. It takes everything sandbox players hate and makes them even worse. This is the most mainstream game ever made with one of the biggest pay to win cash shop's in any western MMO.
What he means, is that because of his assumption of SWTOR being an utter failure, it somehow proves that people want sandboxes.
Thats why its a win for sandbox players.
Or maybe even just a game that isn't totally Dumbed Down and sold as something it's not.
Not saying you're wrong on the main point, as I didn't play SWTOR for one minute (I prefer original worlds to explore, not Star Wars, Middle Earth, the Seven Kingdoms or any other spin offs) but on the point of 'the customer is always right'
No they aren't, the customer usually hasn't a clue what they're talking about and mouths off about anything and everything :P
Plus, official forums are always negative, simply because the complainers will talk louder, and at greater length, than those who enjoy the game, Plus, official forums are always negative, simply because the complainers will talk louder, and at greater length, than those who enjoy the game
couldnt agree more. all u hear from r the complainers because the ones enjoying the game r playing, not posting.
I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.
Originally posted by MARTYB2K I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down. I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells. I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
My guess is that all the money they've made off of SWToR says you're wrong. That's just a guess though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well yes, I disagree with this threads basic idea too.
SWTOR is an example for an expensive MMO that was developed with a bad idea about what the gamer wants.
But just because there is a bad themepark out there, that wont motivate ANYONE to play more sandboxes. Being a themepark was not the problem of SWTOR, after all.
If somebody wants more sandbox fans, obviously what we need would be more and better sandbox games.
I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
Why are you not playing DarkFall or Mortal Online if you like sandbox type MMOs.
I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
Three weeks? Really? That means what? Sure, you can have a opinion of a game in three weeks but to make such uninformed comments represents more a bias against the genre then against the game itself.
Let's take one example, "I want a living, breathing immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty sith Spells." So you are comparing SWTOR to CoD? What? I see NO first person shooter in SWTOR. What in the world does that quote even mean? Obviosly, it was meant more to highlight YOUR opinioin but is in fact incorrect in usage.
I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
Why are you not playing DarkFall or Mortal Online if you like sandbox type MMOs.
Both DF and MO are poor games. DF has abysmal game design, MO is... a clusterf*ck.
I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.
Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.
Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:
Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?
So, bascially, you have no data of any kind and your entire argument is based on your personal assumption clouded by bias. Got it. Thank you for clearing that up.
You do see the humor in using forum posts to prove your point in a forum post that is a stellar example of how forum posts are not necessarily based on any level of fact or reality, right?
Look at Tor Status and you will see the data. Notice that Tor has been hemoragimng subs everyday since January. There is a numvber at the bottom that shows total decline/gain for all servers over the over the last week. They had a gain for 3 consecutive days when 1.2 was released but that has quickly ended and they are again hemoraging subs every day. There are 10 NA servers left with a moderate population. Look at the numbers most servers are dead. If they merge now they could likely merge into 30 total NA and Euro servers but at the rate they are going they will be down to 3-4 vialble servers in a couple of months.
Ok so by all accounts the second most popular western mmo is a failure financially?
What does a game have to do to succeed? Triple wows numbers on launch day?
SWTOR was initially successful due to two things: 1) It's Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.
If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.
Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.
I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.
Originally posted by Indol SWTOR was succesful initially due to two things: 1) It is Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.
If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.
Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.
I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.
You still did not answer his question nor addressed his point tho... You only rephrased that SWTOR is "failure"...due some arbitrary untold reasons..
SWTOR was succesful initially due to two things: 1) It is Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.
If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.
Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.
I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.
You still did not answer his question nor addressed his point tho... You only rephrased that SWTOR is "failure"...due some arbitrary untold reasons..
It was clearly successful at generating sales. That's what he was saying and i'm not disputing that. It's the longevity of the game that's important now.
Initial sales mean less and less over time. Eventually the game has to show it's own worth to ensure continued success.
Comments
Here's the problem with your statement...
Developers don't care about SWTOR's failure so it means absolutely little to them in regards to starting sandbox games. What they look for are the 'successful' MMO's. Just like with many things in life if someone sees another using a certain method that gains them success they tend to try to immulate that direction for themselves to gain that success. If they try to learn anything from SWTOR's difficulties (as I won't call it a failure with the amount of subs it has) it will be the innovate their direction more like GW2 or TSW is doing. It won't be 'Let's chunk the whole theme park idea altogether and go completely against the main stream!'
For AAA companies that is too much of a risk and gamble. They can't go to their boards and executivies pitching an idea that has not shown an inkling of success other than a niche market and say 'Hey! Give me your money for me to try this completely revolutionizing idea even if we have no data to back it up!' Business doesn't work like that. Smaller or indie companies can take that type of gamble but for AAA's it's a heavy risk that most won't come toward with a ten foot pole.
So no, SWTOR's failures does nothing for sandboxers but it may do something for innovation toward the themepark direction.
It does not? Seems fairly stable.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Not sure what this has to do w/ sandboxers, but I'm all for more innovative / interesting games. So far I'm really enjoying GW2. While I've played sandboxes in the past that I really enjoyed, I feel like they tend to have more problems than they solve. For one I hate dealing w/ gankers & griefers. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I tend to always bump into them, and it's always very annoying.
That said, GW2 kinda puts itself somewhere inbetween the standard themepark & sandbox. It's not completely open, but it has a lot of freedom, in a balanced sort of way.
However, if what you're looking for is an actual sandbox, Archage is looking to be a pretty decent one from what I've heard.
Well, the title is a bit misleading. SWTOR is a win for sandbox players and MMO's. The other side (themepark) losing doesn't necessarily mean a win for the Sandbox or even MMO's in general. When MMO = big risk, stay away, then all MMO's could lose if TOR fails as badly as you claim.
I think SWTOR will ruin the chance of a game company spending this much money on a AAA MMO again. I think they've found their cost ceiling for the genre.
They said server pops were low a while ago.. That's nothing new. The OP's argument was based on the statement that SWTOR was a costly failure - a claim that can neither be confirmed nor refusted by PCU.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree. I'd speculate that we're going to be looking at future MMOs being developed for a fraction of that cost, probably in the range of whatever they feel they can recouperate from initial box sales and preorders.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yumm
Not saying you're wrong on the main point, as I didn't play SWTOR for one minute (I prefer original worlds to explore, not Star Wars, Middle Earth, the Seven Kingdoms or any other spin offs) but on the point of 'the customer is always right'
No they aren't, the customer usually hasn't a clue what they're talking about and mouths off about anything and everything :P
Plus, official forums are always negative, simply because the complainers will talk louder, and at greater length, than those who enjoy the game,
Plus, official forums are always negative, simply because the complainers will talk louder, and at greater length, than those who enjoy the game
couldnt agree more. all u hear from r the complainers because the ones enjoying the game r playing, not posting.
Metenso has been hard at work collecting statistics.
Of course it is x-fire, and there are problems with using it, but it has proven itself at showing trends IMO.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4937471
My guess is that all the money they've made off of SWToR says you're wrong. That's just a guess though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well yes, I disagree with this threads basic idea too.
SWTOR is an example for an expensive MMO that was developed with a bad idea about what the gamer wants.
But just because there is a bad themepark out there, that wont motivate ANYONE to play more sandboxes. Being a themepark was not the problem of SWTOR, after all.
If somebody wants more sandbox fans, obviously what we need would be more and better sandbox games.
Why are you not playing DarkFall or Mortal Online if you like sandbox type MMOs.
I would say it's the latter.
Three weeks? Really? That means what? Sure, you can have a opinion of a game in three weeks but to make such uninformed comments represents more a bias against the genre then against the game itself.
Let's take one example, "I want a living, breathing immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty sith Spells." So you are comparing SWTOR to CoD? What? I see NO first person shooter in SWTOR. What in the world does that quote even mean? Obviosly, it was meant more to highlight YOUR opinioin but is in fact incorrect in usage.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Both DF and MO are poor games. DF has abysmal game design, MO is... a clusterf*ck.
Look at Tor Status and you will see the data. Notice that Tor has been hemoragimng subs everyday since January. There is a numvber at the bottom that shows total decline/gain for all servers over the over the last week. They had a gain for 3 consecutive days when 1.2 was released but that has quickly ended and they are again hemoraging subs every day. There are 10 NA servers left with a moderate population. Look at the numbers most servers are dead. If they merge now they could likely merge into 30 total NA and Euro servers but at the rate they are going they will be down to 3-4 vialble servers in a couple of months.
SWTOR was initially successful due to two things: 1) It's Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.
If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.
Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.
I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.
You still did not answer his question nor addressed his point tho... You only rephrased that SWTOR is "failure"...due some arbitrary untold reasons..
As I always said
SWTOR must die so the MMOS might live !
It was clearly successful at generating sales. That's what he was saying and i'm not disputing that. It's the longevity of the game that's important now.
Initial sales mean less and less over time. Eventually the game has to show it's own worth to ensure continued success.