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SWTOR Is A Win For Sandbox Players & MMOs

24

Comments

  • ZhauricZhauric Houston, TXPosts: 293Member

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

    Here's the problem with your statement...

    Developers don't care about SWTOR's failure so it means absolutely little to them in regards to starting sandbox games. What they look for are the 'successful' MMO's. Just like with many things in life if someone sees another using a certain method that gains them success they tend to try to immulate that direction for themselves to gain that success. If they try to learn anything from SWTOR's difficulties (as I won't call it a failure with the amount of subs it has) it will be the innovate their direction more like GW2 or TSW is doing. It won't be 'Let's chunk the whole theme park idea altogether and go completely against the main stream!'

    For AAA companies that is too much of a risk and gamble. They can't go to their boards and executivies pitching an idea that has not shown an inkling of success other than a niche market and say 'Hey! Give me your money for me to try this completely revolutionizing idea even if we have no data to back it up!' Business doesn't work like that. Smaller or indie companies can take that type of gamble but for AAA's it's a heavy risk that most won't come toward with a ten foot pole.

    So no, SWTOR's failures does nothing for sandboxers but it may do something for innovation toward the themepark direction.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Professor78

    There ya go, server populations not doing great.
    http://www.torstatus.net/shards/eu/trends

    It does not? Seems fairly stable.

  • warmaster670warmaster670 Simcoe, ONPosts: 1,384Member
    whether or not ToR fails, sandboxes are still niche, and most people dont care about them, so if you call people not caring about it winning then ya sure, snadboxers win.

    Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
    Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

    Not sure what this has to do w/ sandboxers, but I'm all for more innovative / interesting games. So far I'm really enjoying GW2. While I've played sandboxes in the past that I really enjoyed, I feel like they tend to have more problems than they solve. For one I hate dealing w/ gankers & griefers. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I tend to always bump into them, and it's always very annoying.

    That said, GW2 kinda puts itself somewhere inbetween the standard themepark & sandbox. It's not completely open, but it has a lot of freedom, in a balanced sort of way.

    However, if what you're looking for is an actual sandbox, Archage is looking to be a pretty decent one from what I've heard.

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    Originally posted by Tranquilliti

    Are you trolling? This is absolutely the worst possible game for sandbox players. It takes everything sandbox players hate and makes them even worse. This is the most mainstream game ever made with one of the biggest pay to win cash shop's in any western MMO. 

    Go back and re-read my post. Not just the Title.

     Well, the title is a bit misleading. SWTOR is a win for sandbox players and MMO's. The other side (themepark) losing doesn't necessarily mean a win for the Sandbox or even MMO's in general. When MMO = big risk, stay away, then all MMO's could lose if TOR fails as badly as you claim.

    imageimage
  • MARTYB2KMARTYB2K AthensPosts: 167Member
    The thing everyone needs to be aware is. Check the SWTOR figures after GW2 comes out. Many people are just using it has a place to hang out and have no home, or are tied in for 3-6 months. Lets face it. if you are burned out on WOW, after LOTRO they are not a lot of alternatives... until now (Tera, GW2). SWTOR's figures will be half in 3 months.
  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

    I think SWTOR will ruin the chance of a game company spending this much money on a AAA MMO again.  I think they've found their cost ceiling for the genre. 

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Professor78

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

    Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.

    Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/ratings (Look at all the talk of empty Planets)

    Also: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/forum/893/General-Discussion.html (Unhappy people)

    Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?

     

    So, bascially, you have no data of any kind and your entire argument is based on your personal assumption clouded by bias. Got it.  Thank you for clearing that up. 

    You do see the humor in using forum posts to prove your point in a forum post that is a stellar example of how forum posts are not necessarily based on any level of fact or reality, right? 

    There ya go, server populations not doing great.

    http://www.torstatus.net/shards/eu/trends

    They said server pops were low a while ago.. That's nothing new. The OP's argument was based on the statement that SWTOR was a costly failure - a claim that can neither be confirmed nor refusted by PCU.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AbdarAbdar Thunder Bay, ONPosts: 400Member Uncommon
    The OP is either trolling, or honestly doesn't know what a sandbox MMO is.. either way, SWTOR is probably the most opposite sandbox MMO out there.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by dontadow

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

    I think SWTOR will ruin the chance of a game company spending this much money on a AAA MMO again.  I think they've found their cost ceiling for the genre. 

    I agree. I'd speculate that we're going to be looking at future MMOs being developed for a fraction of that cost, probably in the range of whatever they feel they can recouperate from initial box sales and preorders.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BizkitNLBizkitNL Posts: 2,280Member

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    Originally posted by BizkitNL

    Originally posted by Tranquilliti

    Are you trolling? This is absolutely the worst possible game for sandbox players. It takes everything sandbox players hate and makes them even worse. This is the most mainstream game ever made with one of the biggest pay to win cash shop's in any western MMO. 

    What he means, is that because of his assumption of SWTOR being an utter failure, it somehow proves that people want sandboxes.

    Thats why its a win for sandbox players.

    Or maybe even just a game that isn't totally Dumbed Down and sold as something it's not.

    Yumm

    10
  • silverreignsilverreign Whitehouse, TXPosts: 401Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by comrademario

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K
    Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:
    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/ratings (Look at all the talk of empty Planets)
    Also: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/forum/893/General-Discussion.html (Unhappy people)
    Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?
     
    Not saying you're wrong on the main point, as I didn't play SWTOR for one minute (I prefer original worlds to explore, not Star Wars, Middle Earth, the Seven Kingdoms or any other spin offs) but on the point of 'the customer is always right'
     
    No they aren't, the customer usually hasn't a clue what they're talking about and mouths off about anything and everything :P
     
    Plus, official forums are always negative, simply because the complainers will talk louder, and at greater length, than those who enjoy the game,


    Plus, official forums are always negative, simply because the complainers will talk louder, and at greater length, than those who enjoy the game

    couldnt agree more. all u hear from r the complainers because the ones enjoying the game r playing, not posting.

    image

  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Rasputin

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

    Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.

    There are good indicators: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/thread/349680/Seems-like-the-game-has-peaked-on-XFire-Part-2.html

    I'd been avoiding that thread because XFire threads around here usually get really weird. Will go check that out.

    Metenso has been hard at work collecting statistics.

    Of course it is x-fire, and there are problems with using it, but it has proven itself at showing trends IMO.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4937471

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by MARTYB2K
    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.
    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.
    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.


    My guess is that all the money they've made off of SWToR says you're wrong. That's just a guess though.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member

    Well yes, I disagree with this threads basic idea too.

    SWTOR is an example for an expensive MMO that was developed with a bad idea about what the gamer wants.

    But just because there is a bad themepark out there, that wont motivate ANYONE to play more sandboxes. Being a themepark was not the problem of SWTOR, after all.

    If somebody wants more sandbox fans, obviously what we need would be more and better sandbox games.

     

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

    Why are you not playing DarkFall or Mortal Online if you like sandbox type MMOs.

     

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon ParisPosts: 1,066Member

    Originally posted by Abdar

    The OP is either trolling, or honestly doesn't know what a sandbox MMO is.. either way, SWTOR is probably the most opposite sandbox MMO out there.

    I would say it's the latter.

  • GruugGruug Chillicothe, ILPosts: 1,311Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

     

    Three weeks? Really? That means what? Sure, you can have a opinion of a game in three weeks but to make such uninformed comments represents more a bias against the genre then against the game itself.

    Let's take one example, "I want a living, breathing immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty sith Spells." So you are comparing SWTOR to CoD? What? I see NO first person shooter in SWTOR. What in the world does that quote even mean? Obviosly, it was meant more to highlight YOUR opinioin but is in fact incorrect in usage.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • HricaHrica Mocksville, NCPosts: 1,125Member Uncommon
    I finks he is describing the desert on Tatooine as da sandbox
  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Sylvarii

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

    Why are you not playing DarkFall or Mortal Online if you like sandbox type MMOs.

     

    Both DF and MO are poor games. DF has abysmal game design, MO is... a clusterf*ck.

  • ZippyZippy NY, NYPosts: 1,412Member

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by MARTYB2K

    I played SWTOR for about 3 weeks. It wasn't bad, but it sums up everything that is wrong with gaming today. Dumbing Down.

    I find it in-excusable that games like SWG and Everquest had much more innovation and were out a Decade ago. WOW built up the Theme Park, SWTOR will help kill it. The spectacular and costly failure of SWTOR will force games developers to go back to the drawing board and not give us a single player game with a chat channel anymore. I want living, breathing, immersive worlds. Not a Call of Duty with Spells.

    I've got my eye on Guild Wars 2. It might be Theme Parky, but at least the developers are trying to give is something new. Good luck to them. I don't expect it to be as much as a Sandbox like SWG was, but at least it might cater to us Sandbox player in a small way.

    Can you link to the data you are basing this on? Specifically, the fact that SWTOR is a "costly and spectacular failure" since your entire argument is based on that part in particular.

    Sure, you ever heard of "The customer is always right". Well the public have spoken. The vast majority are negative:

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/ratings (Look at all the talk of empty Planets)

    Also: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/forum/893/General-Discussion.html (Unhappy people)

    Finally, just look at the Offical Forums for lots more negativity. everyone isn't lying, not too mention it's probably going Free-2-Play soon. What else do you want?

     

    So, bascially, you have no data of any kind and your entire argument is based on your personal assumption clouded by bias. Got it.  Thank you for clearing that up. 

    You do see the humor in using forum posts to prove your point in a forum post that is a stellar example of how forum posts are not necessarily based on any level of fact or reality, right? 

    Look at Tor Status and you will see the data.  Notice that Tor has been hemoragimng subs everyday since January.  There is a numvber at the bottom that shows total decline/gain for all servers over the over the last week. They had a gain for 3 consecutive days when 1.2 was released but that has quickly ended and they are again hemoraging subs every day.  There are 10 NA servers left with a moderate population.  Look at the numbers most servers are dead.  If they merge now they could likely  merge into 30 total NA and Euro servers but at the rate they are going they will be down to 3-4 vialble servers in a couple of months.

  • IndolIndol O''Fallon, MOPosts: 189Member

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    Ok so by all accounts the second most popular western mmo is a failure financially?



    What does a game have to do to succeed? Triple wows numbers on launch day?

    SWTOR was initially successful due to two things: 1) It's Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.

     

    If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.

     

    Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.

     

    I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.

     

     

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Indol

    SWTOR was succesful initially due to two things: 1) It is Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.
     
    If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.
     
    Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.
     
    I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.
     
     

    You still did not answer his question nor addressed his point tho... You only rephrased that SWTOR is "failure"...due some arbitrary untold reasons..

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,047Member Uncommon

    As I always said

    SWTOR must die so the MMOS might live !

    image

  • IndolIndol O''Fallon, MOPosts: 189Member

    Originally posted by Gdemami

     




    Originally posted by Indol



    SWTOR was succesful initially due to two things: 1) It is Star Wars. 2) It has the word Bioware printed on it.

     

    If those two things were not the case the game would have 100% flopped right out the gates based on it's own merit as a game.

     

    Just because something sells well initially that doesn't mean it is a quality product, it can simply be a result of marketing and the general assumption of quality based on associations.

     

    I can definitely see SWTOR's post-release dissapointment positively influencing the development of future mmo's. Which I think is a pretty excellent result for a lackluster title.

     

     




     

    You still did not answer his question nor addressed his point tho... You only rephrased that SWTOR is "failure"...due some arbitrary untold reasons..

    It was clearly successful at generating sales. That's what he was saying and i'm not disputing that. It's the longevity of the game that's important now.

     

    Initial sales mean less and less over time. Eventually the game has to show it's own worth to ensure continued success.

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