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Another Misconception about Guild Wars 2

KrimzinKrimzin Fort Worth, TXPosts: 545Member Uncommon

There are no Tanks, healers, dps... Bull

Its true that there are no professions that can only heal, or only tank. There are however professions that can be tanks and healers.

Example.

Guardian is going to be one of the best healers in the game.
When you picking your abilities and skills, you pick the healing over dps/tank.
When you choosing armor/weapons, you simply pick items that have +healing on them.

Same goes for tanking.

So in a sense there are no true tanks/healers, however both are more than viable and will be required in some of the 5-man content.

Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.


It's an Orange thing
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Comments

  • Cod_EyeCod_Eye jarrowPosts: 1,016Member

    Originally posted by Krimzin

    There are no Tanks, healers, dps... Bull

    Its true that there are no professions that can only heal, or only tank. There are however professions that can be tanks and healers.

    Example.

    Guardian is going to be one of the best healers in the game.

    When you picking your abilities and skills, you pick the healing over dps/tank.

    When you choosing armor/weapons, you simply pick items that have +healing on them.

    Same goes for tanking.

    So in a sense there are no true tanks/healers, however both are more than viable and will be required in some of the 5-man content.

    How are you going to keep hate?

  • LostarLostar Johnstown, PAPosts: 901Member
    More viable, yes, but not required.  The part of it "not being required" is the exciting part.
  • SomsbalSomsbal somsbalPosts: 222Member

    I'd love to see someone tank when he can't even keep the attention of the mob on him, because there's no "tank threat system"

    There will be professions that will be able to take more damage then others and professions that will be better at healing the group then others, but there won't be tanks or healers.

  • KrimzinKrimzin Fort Worth, TXPosts: 545Member Uncommon

    Everyone that i spoke with about the 5mans said the same thing. You need a healer. Without one its nothing but a wipefest.

    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.


    It's an Orange thing
  • AlotAlot BredaPosts: 1,948Member

    A tank being more viable? Okay, first play a dungeon in Explorable Mode, then come back.

  • NaeviusNaevius Houston, TXPosts: 334Member Uncommon
    Based on my experience, 5 Rangers can complete anything. :)
  • DeolusDeolus DoncasterPosts: 392Member

    Let us know how it works out for you next BWE :)

     

  • SomsbalSomsbal somsbalPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Everyone that i spoke with about the 5mans said the same thing. You need a healer. Without one its nothing but a wipefest.

    Then that means they were playing badly, or the dungeon was tuned too hard. It doesn't mean they need a healer. If they said they needed more support in their group, then that's a different case.

  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLPosts: 1,288Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Somsbal

    I'd love to see someone tank when he can't even keep the attention of the mob on him, because there's no "tank threat system"

    There will be professions that will be able to take more damage then others and professions that will be better at healing the group then others, but there won't be tanks or healers.

    I did it on my guardian all thru BWE. It's called proximity aggro. I coordinated with my group so I was in the lead the whole time. When damage drew aggro I would press on, and dps would halt momentarily and start backing up alot. It is still aggro management, albeit way more group orientated and FUN! So no longer do you have to PUSH a button for aggro, instead you have to coordinate with your group.

    Our second run of fun I switched weapons and became the support/healer for our group on my guardian. The Ele with us switched to staff/water and helped heal as well because our melee were getting banged on hard during certain fights.

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Krimzin

    There are no Tanks, healers, dps... Bull

    Its true that there are no professions that can only heal, or only tank. There are however professions that can be tanks and healers.

    Example.

    Guardian is going to be one of the best healers in the game.

    When you picking your abilities and skills, you pick the healing over dps/tank.

    When you choosing armor/weapons, you simply pick items that have +healing on them.

    Same goes for tanking.

    So in a sense there are no true tanks/healers, however both are more than viable and will be required in some of the 5-man content.

    How do you tank when the MOB doesn't attack you, how can you heal when you can't outheal damage taken.

    And who to heal you when you are being chased by the MOB that doesn't want to attack anyone but you. Because if you played BETA you will realize that they chase you till you are dead when you are low in health, they will go straight at you.

    And trust me, when you have a choice, you won't be going for those specific classes, even if you do, they will probably end up doing other rotations and other weapons based on situation. And you will probably end up with Elementalist tanking with Earth while others revives your fallen allies. Then back to your thiefs melee tanking, or engineer tanking, or wait......so everyone is tanking and healing and dpsing.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • ThomsonThomson DortmundPosts: 243Member

    I don't know where to start.

    Arenanet never said they removed the idea of Tank/DPS/Heal.
    You can tank (take/mitigate damage), DPS (mainly deal damage) and heal.


    But they want to remove the concept that mostly all MMO's currently use.
    "The Holy Trinity", you form a group and every person in your group is assigned
    a one of the three roles and his only mission is to fullfill his role in the group.


    GW2 won't have that to the this extend, first off every class can heal, mitigate damage
    in a certain way and deal damage. Sure there are certain classes that can do certain
    things better than others but there won't be any class that is really effective when
    trying to play only one role.


    Now the main ideas behind this are that you don't need a specific combination of classes
    in order to be successfull and that every player has to be on his toes and look out
    for himself because there won't be someone healing him up every time he takes damage.


    In general you are trying to avoid damager rather than the usual tank&spank mechanic.

  • AlotAlot BredaPosts: 1,948Member


    Originally posted by Naevius
    Based on my experience, 5 Rangers can complete anything. :)

    I have heard many stories about those you call Rangers, is it true that they can shatter one's dreams of becoming an adventurer with a single arrow the knee?

  • Zeus.CMZeus.CM ZagrebPosts: 1,788Member

    Guardian a Healer and Tank?

    First of all like others said, there's no way to keep aggro on yourself.

    Second of all, all support skills have huge cooldowns (min 30 sec up 120+) so no. No heal.

    Third, you can't target specific ally.

  • SomsbalSomsbal somsbalPosts: 222Member

    Originally posted by Nevulus

    Originally posted by Somsbal

    I'd love to see someone tank when he can't even keep the attention of the mob on him, because there's no "tank threat system"

    There will be professions that will be able to take more damage then others and professions that will be better at healing the group then others, but there won't be tanks or healers.

    I did it on my guardian all thru BWE. It's called proximity aggro. I coordinated with my group so I was in the lead the whole time. When damage drew aggro I would press on, and dps would halt momentarily and start backing up alot. It is still aggro management, albeit way more group orientated and FUN! So no longer do you have to PUSH a button for aggro, instead you have to coordinate with your group.

    Our second run of fun I switched weapons and became the support/healer for our group on my guardian. The Ele with us switched to staff/water and helped heal as well because our melee were getting banged on hard during certain fights.

    That's still different then what i meant with the "tank threat system". If people find a way to keep the attention of the mob on them through tactics like you described, then i say it's not really tanking, just clever use of game mechanics (yes i know that sounds cliché).

    I doubt that it will keep working though, and i think Anet said on the official forums something about reducing the rate at wich mobs favor melee targets.

  • FinitFinit Smithsburg, MDPosts: 145Member

    Originally posted by Thomson

    I don't know where to start.

    Arenanet never said they removed the idea of Tank/DPS/Heal.

    You can tank (take/mitigate damage), DPS (mainly deal damage) and heal.



    But they want to remove the concept that mostly all MMO's currently use.

    "The Holy Trinity", you form a group and every person in your group is assigned

    a one of the three roles and his only mission is to fullfill his role in the group.



    GW2 won't have that to the this extend, first off every class can heal, mitigate damage

    in a certain way and deal damage. Sure there are certain classes that can do certain

    things better than others but there won't be any class that is really effective when

    trying to play only one role.



    Now the main ideas behind this are that you don't need a specific combination of classes

    in order to be successfull and that every player has to be on his toes and look out

    for himself because there won't be someone healing him up every time he takes damage.



    In general you are trying to avoid damager rather than the usual tank&spank mechanic.

    This is spot on, as well as this: http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/guild-wars-2-attempting-healer-build/

    Yes you can tank for a brief period of time, at this time the guardian seems capable of holding on to a mob for a little while, which may be readjusted.  The article shows that you can't just be one role in the fight.  Yes, the elementalist can specialize in healing, etc. but they will have to do more than just heal.  The guardian can specialize in tanking, etc, but they will need to do more than just heal.  An engineer lays down a healing turrent, but he does more than just heal.  I think you get the point. No profession can just be the "tank" or the "healer" the "dps", everyone has to be a mixture of all 3, and are able to adapt to the situation.

    Note:  As for whether one person could hold aggro on a mob.  Yes, it has been confirmed that most mobs in the game are based on a proximity threat system.  The person closest to the mob is who the mob attacks.  This means as long as whoever wants to tank the mob will have to be closest to the mob.  However, it has also been confirmed that some mobs, particularly boss mobs will change targets based on who is most "annoying" including as a dev pointed out, the elementalist just spamming fireballs in the back.  

    My Guild Wars 2 Blog can be found here: Divinity's Reach

  • ariboersmaariboersma Yankton, SDPosts: 1,802Member
    I take it you missed it when Anet said that groups trying to take a "trinity" grp to an explorable dungeon would never be able to complete it. You simply cannot go all heals or defensive and succeed. You cannot take hits and be a "tank" you cannot heal others who insist on trying to do so. 

    image

  • AvatarBladeAvatarBlade BucurestiPosts: 770Member Uncommon
    I remember in a interview, a guy (I have no idea how the people that work on this game are called or look like) said that the threat system in GW2 is preety basic. An enemy will attack the target closest to him. So you could keep aggro in a certain way.
  • AlotAlot BredaPosts: 1,948Member


    Originally posted by AvatarBlade
    I remember in a interview, a guy (I have no idea how the people that work on this game are called or look like) said that the threat system in GW2 is preety basic. An enemy will attack the target closest to him. So you could keep aggro in a certain way.

    Yeah, but you can't really sustain all that much damage so you'll have to keep moving, which may cause you to lose aggro.

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Calgary, ABPosts: 1,323Member

    Originally posted by Alot

     




    Originally posted by AvatarBlade

    I remember in a interview, a guy (I have no idea how the people that work on this game are called or look like) said that the threat system in GW2 is preety basic. An enemy will attack the target closest to him. So you could keep aggro in a certain way.



     

    Yeah, but you can't really sustain all that much damage so you'll have to keep moving, which may cause you to lose aggro.

    I saw characters tank all the time in WvWvW. Keep lords that could 2 shot my character managed to be tanked. This wasn't the exception. This happened all the time in WvWvW situations and was a common occurrence.

  • ariboersmaariboersma Yankton, SDPosts: 1,802Member

    Originally posted by Alot

    Originally posted by AvatarBlade

    I remember in a interview, a guy (I have no idea how the people that work on this game are called or look like) said that the threat system in GW2 is preety basic. An enemy will attack the target closest to him. So you could keep aggro in a certain way.



    Yeah, but you can't really sustain all that much damage so you'll have to keep moving, which may cause you to lose aggro.

    mostly correct, however its not basic, some mobs use proximity, others damage or a mixture but proximity seems to be the biggest source of threat for sure.

    image

  • AvatarBladeAvatarBlade BucurestiPosts: 770Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Alot

     




    Originally posted by AvatarBlade

    I remember in a interview, a guy (I have no idea how the people that work on this game are called or look like) said that the threat system in GW2 is preety basic. An enemy will attack the target closest to him. So you could keep aggro in a certain way.



     

    Yeah, but you can't really sustain all that much damage so you'll have to keep moving, which may cause you to lose aggro.

    Yes, was just saying you can keep aggro for a certain ammount of time, posted it because some people were asking how you could keep it.

  • JesseBFoxJesseBFox Tallahassee, FLPosts: 134Member

    This is a little silly. I have played a lot of GW2 always in a group, and this is how I see it. 

    Say you want to "tank" and you want to hold aggro. Essentially you are trying to peel a squishy build (ele, "healer" whatever). The most effective way to get aggro off of your buddy is to do this: knock the mob around. launch it away from your buddy, knock it down, immobilize it etc. You can go stand next to it and bash all day and have your buddy run away from it, but odds are it will just follow your buddy around unless you have a way of stopping/slowing/launching/pulling the mob. After it has seperate from your buddy you have options and the aggro can change. In the meantime, it isn't hurting your buddy which was your objective.

    This is what the devs mean when they say there is a 'control' role. It works very well against melee mobs. Against range mobs it is much more simple. stand between the ranged mob and your buddy. you take the hits.

    Now about healing, I had an engineer I got to level 15. Thru crafting and rewards I pushed healing power as much as possible. Also every trait bump was to healing power. At level 15 I got a trait that my healing power went up even further when i was low on health. My heal skill was a heal turret. My first utility was an elixer gun, which also has an aoe heal as the #5. I noticed bumping the heal power traits made a big difference in my healing but even with all the push towards healing, my heal turret gave regen to everyone in the area of 14 points a second. I had 1300 hps. 1% of my hps were recovered every second. This was not enough, not even close to keep anyone standing who is going toe to toe with a mob and letting themselves be hit. The heal skill on the elixer would do a one shot of about 60 health and then a regen area. I never felt anything close to a healer.

    However I had other tools. I had a shield that i could use to block ranged attacks and push back melee attackers. If I went rifle I could launch single targets or immobilize them. I had other shots with my elixer gun that would remove conditions or give swiftness to allies while making the enemy vulnerable (swiftness allows you to run faster so you can get away from mobs). My flame thrower could launch opponents OR pull them to me. 

    In short I felt like I was a great SUPPORT character. Pretty much the whole time I was contributing to damage as well. 

    Yes, there is a big misconception about gw2, and that is that you will be effective trying to play solely as a healer, dps, or tank in gw2 and be an effective teammate. 

     

  • PrecusorPrecusor PalmaPosts: 4,733Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Everyone that i spoke with about the 5mans said the same thing. You need a healer. Without one its nothing but a wipefest.

    Has anyone tried GW2 5 mans yet?

  • sidhaethesidhaethe Corona, CAPosts: 861Member
    Excellent post, JesseBFox, and thanks for crunching the numbers to show how it works in detail. I see people often glibly saying "oh I'll just roll a guardian/water ele and put all my trait points into +healing" but the fact is you will never have enough trait points or runes to out-heal the damage dealt in an encounter. (If it were possible, people would know it from PvP, remember, we had access to all those trait lines and runes at max level to test at our leisure!)

    image

  • FinitFinit Smithsburg, MDPosts: 145Member

    Originally posted by Precusor

    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Everyone that i spoke with about the 5mans said the same thing. You need a healer. Without one its nothing but a wipefest.

    Has anyone tried GW2 5 mans yet?

    Most likely not.  The press have played them.  However, I put in a good 30 hours this weekend and I got to level 25.  (i was doing other things than leveling though).  The highest person on our sever was level 43.  The first dungeon is at 30.  So, while theoretically possible, the vast majority were doing other things than just leveling.  Many were re-rolling classes, trying out WvW (while yes it does level you, I don't think its as fast as PvE content), and 5v5s.  

    My Guild Wars 2 Blog can be found here: Divinity's Reach

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