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Let's talk retention

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  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by allegria

    a. I have not tried Gw2 yet but anxious to do so.

    b. have read quite a bit about the structure/gameplay etc...

    For those more experienced or in the know, what do you think about GW2 will hold people ? 

    The obvious that comes to mind is the WvWvW stuff, but being a "separate game" I question how much personal interest I would have in that...

    Love to hear others thoughts on "retention" and things GW2 brings that will keep people around after they "see the content".

    A lot of people downplay it, but the original Guild Wars is actually very successful. It's still around to this day (~7 years after it's release).

    The point about 'WvWvW being a separate game', I don't think really has any negative impact on the subs. That statement basically points out part of how this game is all about choice. You aren't forced to do anything. You can lvl in WvW, and in PvE. You can choose to try and play the game like a standard quest grind, or you can explore and see what hidden events & things you can find. You can choose to ignore the PvP aspect of the game entirely, and focus on crafting / playing the market. There's a LOT to do in the game, and none of it is forced on you.

    That's the beauty of this game, and it will hold a lot of people. I have no doubt about that. I can't comment on how many, but I would be VERY surprised if it wasn't at least 1million +.

    Now, the flip side to this, is because the game is so open, there is very little handholding. This is a potential problem, because some people have shown that they really need this, even if they don't like to admit it. For example, some people were playing this game in beta as a strictly lvl / quest grind. They felt they had to stick to the 'hearts that are my same lvl', and only do those events. These same people didn't do a whole lot of exploration (of any kind), and many missed key parts of the game, through most of their play experience. Some went for hours without realizing they had new skills unlocked, or that they weren't wearing armor, etc.

    Because of this, some people will have a rough time w/ the game. I think when you couple the explorative nature of the game, with the challenging combat, it will ultimately make this game harder to swallow for the average gamer. It'll still be very popular, as was the first game, but a lot of the 'elitist' criticisms comes from the fact that both games are very challenging, and are not as friendly to more casual players as most MMOs are. There is definitely a skill curve.

  • I'd pretty high.  It has high replay value and the PvP will keep alot of people too.

     

    But I think the better question is how many people buy the x-pac since this is no a sub game.

  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,922Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by colddog04

     

    His name makes me think he's naked.

    Oh great, thanks for the visual....now I need to bash myself with a hammer to try to forget that.

    Anyway. I imagine that many raiding folks either won't purchase or will leave within 6 months, unless they are really looking for something different. There really isn't much of a carrot stick approach to PvE. If the PvP is balanced, I imagine that this will be THE place for it. Can effectively PvP from the word go, and can do nothing but PvP for the entire career of your toon, with the exception of the starting tutorial event (which lasts maybe 15 min).

    I could see achievers and explorers enjoying the game as well. Getting every area to 100%, running all over finding neat challenges.

    Additionally, you can't discount the folks who raid during the week and GW2 on the weekends (I personally have 2-3 friends who have this intention). So it could even be a "weekend warrior" type of game.

  • grimm6thgrimm6th Overland Park, KSPosts: 973Member

    Originally posted by allegria

    a. I have not tried Gw2 yet but anxious to do so.

    b. have read quite a bit about the structure/gameplay etc...

    For those more experienced or in the know, what do you think about GW2 will hold people ? 

    The obvious that comes to mind is the WvWvW stuff, but being a "separate game" I question how much personal interest I would have in that...

    Love to hear others thoughts on "retention" and things GW2 brings that will keep people around after they "see the content".

    You know, I would have to say the retention will be effected by the large number of different things to do.  I think all games try to do this a bit, but I think GW2 has this particularly in the bag.  If you like one thing, you can do that one thing, and this in no way hiders your enjoyment of the game.

    Explorers will love this game, ask an explorer why, as I am not purely an explorer and cannot adequately explain how awesome GW2 is for explorers.

    Completionists will have a large number of different things to do one their characters to satisfy their urges, such as the achievements, world completion points, and gathering the gear that they like the most.

    Mob killers should like that the combat is engaging and fun (once you get the hang of it...and please, don't bring tera into this.  They are different systems, some like one over the other for whatever reason, and thats a fine opinion.)  They have large bosses to kill, and some players needs are that simple.  Give me something fun to do.

    PvP is great, and the fact that you don't have to PvE to do PvP is also great.

    Group play (dungeons) should prove to be fun for the people who like having themselves challenged while playing in a group.  Well...explorable mode should at least.

    Story...you may like it, you may not, it doesn't have to be your thing, and you can choose to just skip the cutscenes if that is your thing.  I loved the personal story, especially for the charr.  I don't mind the dialogue or the VO, I just love the connection I get for my character and the NPCs around me.

     

     

    I could go on, but It is all about how you can find the thing you like to do, or do all the things you like to do.  This game is going to be an altaholic's dream (or nightmare if you are short on time).  Not having a sub helps.

    I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,911Member Uncommon

    I see retention working very well for GW2.

     

    The beauty of Buy 2 Play is that one can put it down if it gets boring or to play something else, and then come back at any time and pick it up again.  Given the response to the pre-purchase campaign, I doubt that it could ever die off in significant numbers.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • allegriaallegria San Francisco, CAPosts: 682Member

    Originally posted by RizelStar

    If we pretend they won't add nothing to the game, it won't have years of retention in the PVE area, that's if we just say they won't add nothing to the game.

    There is plenty to keep me retained but that's [me] and not [you] so it depends on what you look for, I've decided that it'll be my MMO that first place a home in, since it's a themebox and I'll just wait for a sandpark to come out for example ArchAge which will be atleast a year or 2 I think, but who knows A-NET might bring a more "end game" incintive  rather thanraids, I mean they luckily done it with the scale down feature meaning every thing they add they can add to the entire game for everyone to enjoy rather than having to grind to it. Holiday events and GW 1 methods.

    After all they copied GW 1 more than any game, I can elaborate if one wants me too, I never thought about it myself until Torv said something but I also realised where they [most] likely got their ideas from PVE wise.

    Hope this helps :/

    I like your terms !

     

    Sandpark and Themebox !

  • allegriaallegria San Francisco, CAPosts: 682Member
    Thank you for the responses guys !! 
  • allegriaallegria San Francisco, CAPosts: 682Member

    Just a final note.. ( and i am well aware of GW1 success, it was a huge hit for sure although I didnt like it ).

    The reason I ask this is, i am an old mmo type where my MMOs were supposed to be worlds ( yeah, long time ago ) or inherently complex enough for a long term stay. From what I hear, gw2 solves at least one of those problems ( living breathing world) very well...

    However what I am curious about is, of course with no subscription ( maybe cash shop does this ) will there be frequent content updates in the old style ala RIFT / DDO or will this be more like the old GW1 model where its expansion based stuff.

  • NBlitzNBlitz ZwollePosts: 1,904Member

    Originally posted by BarCrow

    Originally posted by Saxx0n

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by Mephster

    Well look at it this way, 5+ years later after the original game releases people still came in droves to play Guild Wars. I suspect it will be the same thing for Guild Wars 2 if not better.

    GW1 was a ghost town before the HoM hype info came out regarding GW2

    LOL! ....love this.

    *giggles* me too. Debbie Downer.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Originally posted by allegria

    Just a final note.. ( and i am well aware of GW1 success, it was a huge hit for sure although I didnt like it ).

    The reason I ask this is, i am an old mmo type where my MMOs were supposed to be worlds ( yeah, long time ago ) or inherently complex enough for a long term stay. From what I hear, gw2 solves at least one of those problems ( living breathing world) very well...

    However what I am curious about is, of course with no subscription ( maybe cash shop does this ) will there be frequent content updates in the old style ala RIFT / DDO or will this be more like the old GW1 model where its expansion based stuff.

    In addition to the expansions there will be continual content added to the game in the form of more and more events, and they'll do these without telling the players to basically keep surprising them with new things appearing in the world. Not only that, but they'll be doing this in all zones, not only max level zones, so you'll have reason to go back and experience those zones again for the first time.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member

    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

    Originally posted by allegria

    a. I have not tried Gw2 yet but anxious to do so.

    b. have read quite a bit about the structure/gameplay etc...

    For those more experienced or in the know, what do you think about GW2 will hold people ? 

    The obvious that comes to mind is the WvWvW stuff, but being a "separate game" I question how much personal interest I would have in that...

    Love to hear others thoughts on "retention" and things GW2 brings that will keep people around after they "see the content".

    I really don't think it will hold people PVE wise. I think it will end up being a side game that people play when they have some free time or want something different after they have completed the majority of the events a few times on some alts. I just didn't see something that different in the dynamic events. I don't see what would keep people playing the events over and over when there isn't a treadmill of rewards. Sure the events were fun the first time, but I don't think they are so fun that I would want to keep doing them too many times. Also, even though it was kind of neat to see people working together, the soft grouping really kills some of the social aspects of the game. Since you don't really have to group in the traditional sense, people don't really communicate......though this might be a plus for those who like to solo everything and not have to directly interact with the people around them. The one meta event I experienced also was a bit of a let down as it was more of a spam fest zerg as opposed to a coordinated effort. I think the PVP people will love the game though.......  Anyway, this is just my opinion for what it is worth.

    But you'll do the same raid over and over again? AT least with dynamic events you can produce various diffferent outcomes and there are hundreds of them. 

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,777Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

    Originally posted by allegria

    a. I have not tried Gw2 yet but anxious to do so.

    b. have read quite a bit about the structure/gameplay etc...

    For those more experienced or in the know, what do you think about GW2 will hold people ? 

    The obvious that comes to mind is the WvWvW stuff, but being a "separate game" I question how much personal interest I would have in that...

    Love to hear others thoughts on "retention" and things GW2 brings that will keep people around after they "see the content".

    I really don't think it will hold people PVE wise. I think it will end up being a side game that people play when they have some free time or want something different after they have completed the majority of the events a few times on some alts. I just didn't see something that different in the dynamic events. I don't see what would keep people playing the events over and over when there isn't a treadmill of rewards. Sure the events were fun the first time, but I don't think they are so fun that I would want to keep doing them too many times. Also, even though it was kind of neat to see people working together, the soft grouping really kills some of the social aspects of the game. Since you don't really have to group in the traditional sense, people don't really communicate......though this might be a plus for those who like to solo everything and not have to directly interact with the people around them. The one meta event I experienced also was a bit of a let down as it was more of a spam fest zerg as opposed to a coordinated effort. I think the PVP people will love the game though.......  Anyway, this is just my opinion for what it is worth.

    Whats keeping you from grouping in the "traditional sense"? You can still do it and communicate. People keep picking the game apart because it's different but that doesn't mean you have to stop all your traditional play styles. 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • gt4980bgt4980b Doraville, GAPosts: 112Member

    Originally posted by dontadow

    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

    Originally posted by allegria

    a. I have not tried Gw2 yet but anxious to do so.

    b. have read quite a bit about the structure/gameplay etc...

    For those more experienced or in the know, what do you think about GW2 will hold people ? 

    The obvious that comes to mind is the WvWvW stuff, but being a "separate game" I question how much personal interest I would have in that...

    Love to hear others thoughts on "retention" and things GW2 brings that will keep people around after they "see the content".

    I really don't think it will hold people PVE wise. I think it will end up being a side game that people play when they have some free time or want something different after they have completed the majority of the events a few times on some alts. I just didn't see something that different in the dynamic events. I don't see what would keep people playing the events over and over when there isn't a treadmill of rewards. Sure the events were fun the first time, but I don't think they are so fun that I would want to keep doing them too many times. Also, even though it was kind of neat to see people working together, the soft grouping really kills some of the social aspects of the game. Since you don't really have to group in the traditional sense, people don't really communicate......though this might be a plus for those who like to solo everything and not have to directly interact with the people around them. The one meta event I experienced also was a bit of a let down as it was more of a spam fest zerg as opposed to a coordinated effort. I think the PVP people will love the game though.......  Anyway, this is just my opinion for what it is worth.

    But you'll do the same raid over and over again? AT least with dynamic events you can produce various diffferent outcomes and there are hundreds of them. 

    I think it unfair to just dismiss the smaller beginner dynamic events.  Those events were zerg fest at first but as the population spread out, they became more challenging. 

    You also have the larger and more complex events such as the dragon at the Pax and you will have dungeons with 4 different modes.   Others have said there will be at least 10 dungeons at launch.  If that is true, GW2 will launch with more PVE content that most MMOs launch with.

    But honestly, no game has PVE content to support players.  Even WOW has players that wander to try other MMO's while they wait for the next update.  I think we are long past the days where one game is going to engross us year round....hence f2p movement.

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    Originally posted by Amjoco

    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

    Originally posted by allegria

    a. I have not tried Gw2 yet but anxious to do so.

    b. have read quite a bit about the structure/gameplay etc...

    For those more experienced or in the know, what do you think about GW2 will hold people ? 

    The obvious that comes to mind is the WvWvW stuff, but being a "separate game" I question how much personal interest I would have in that...

    Love to hear others thoughts on "retention" and things GW2 brings that will keep people around after they "see the content".

    I really don't think it will hold people PVE wise. I think it will end up being a side game that people play when they have some free time or want something different after they have completed the majority of the events a few times on some alts. I just didn't see something that different in the dynamic events. I don't see what would keep people playing the events over and over when there isn't a treadmill of rewards. Sure the events were fun the first time, but I don't think they are so fun that I would want to keep doing them too many times. Also, even though it was kind of neat to see people working together, the soft grouping really kills some of the social aspects of the game. Since you don't really have to group in the traditional sense, people don't really communicate......though this might be a plus for those who like to solo everything and not have to directly interact with the people around them. The one meta event I experienced also was a bit of a let down as it was more of a spam fest zerg as opposed to a coordinated effort. I think the PVP people will love the game though.......  Anyway, this is just my opinion for what it is worth.

    Whats keeping you from grouping in the "traditional sense"? You can still do it and communicate. People keep picking the game apart because it's different but that doesn't mean you have to stop all your traditional play styles. 

    Communication in MMOs is overrated anyway. I don't really have anything to say to most people I PUG with. Unless someone is doing something stupid.

    What this game needs is /say and chat bubbles. That's it. Local chat has a much bigger area so the people chatting in it are not really in your event "group."

    One thing I noticed is that because the game revolves around cooperation, people are much nicer and helpful. They go out of their way to resurect your character, even risking the death of their own. They come to your aid when you're fighting a particularly tough mob. This game doesn't need grouping in a traditional sense in order to facilitate community building, it does that on it's own already just based on how the game is set up.

    image

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by heartless

    Communication in MMOs is overrated anyway. I don't really have anything to say to most people I PUG with. Unless someone is doing something stupid.

    What this game needs is /say and chat bubbles. That's it. Local chat has a much bigger area so the people chatting in it are not really in your event "group."

    One thing I noticed is that because the game revolves around cooperation, people are much nicer and helpful. They go out of their way to resurect your character, even risking the death of their own. They come to your aid when you're fighting a particularly tough mob. This game doesn't need grouping in a traditional sense in order to facilitate community building, it does that on it's own already just based on how the game is set up.

    I'd mostly agree, except for one thing.

    I think an open grouping system would go a long way in this game. Either that, or have the map show more of where people are. I know in WvW at least it sucks trying to get people organized when they are all running around solo. It's much easier as an official group (for the most part). It would also make the chat channels more viable as you could issue orders to your team, squad, or party.

    In PvE it's less needed, but would still be helpful for some of the harder events. There have been situatiosn where I outlvl the people I'm playing w/, and want to try some of the harder content. When I get there it's usually difficult to try and follow the other players and help out w/ some of the harder events.

    Again, you're right, it's not necessary, but I do think it would help.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member

    Originally posted by heartless

    What this game needs is /say and chat bubbles.

    Hell to the yeahhhhh.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,903Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Originally posted by Rusque

    I don't see permanent and consistent retention. People will ebb and flow in and out of the game, and since it's B2P that's totally fine for ANet.

     

    This.

    It's a good game but it's not the end-all MMO like some people are making it out to be. The end game might be fun but it too will get stale after awhile. There's only so many points you can earn in PvP/WvW before you think, "I'm done with this, starting to feel grindy".

    Hmm I can still pop in BF1942 and have fun in it, I really don't think I'll ever run into this problem. PVP is about working with people and having some competitive fun, points mean little in the end.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • bookworm438bookworm438 Detroit, MIPosts: 647Member
    No matter what Anet does, the game will grow stale at some point. This happens with every game out there. The time a game no longer seems fun is different for everyone. The beauty of the buy-to-play system and Anet's model, you are free to take a break whenever you want. If after playing the game for 6 months (in which case you got more than your money's worth), and just don't really want to play any more, take a break! It's perfectly OK. When Anet release an expansion or additional content (they do release additional content for free sometimes in GW1), you will know about it. If you want to come back for it, you are free to. If not, well that's perfectly fine. You'll never fall behind the rest of the playerbase in terms of power. 
  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    Originally posted by aesperus

    Originally posted by heartless

    Communication in MMOs is overrated anyway. I don't really have anything to say to most people I PUG with. Unless someone is doing something stupid.

    What this game needs is /say and chat bubbles. That's it. Local chat has a much bigger area so the people chatting in it are not really in your event "group."

    One thing I noticed is that because the game revolves around cooperation, people are much nicer and helpful. They go out of their way to resurect your character, even risking the death of their own. They come to your aid when you're fighting a particularly tough mob. This game doesn't need grouping in a traditional sense in order to facilitate community building, it does that on it's own already just based on how the game is set up.

    I'd mostly agree, except for one thing.

    I think an open grouping system would go a long way in this game. Either that, or have the map show more of where people are. I know in WvW at least it sucks trying to get people organized when they are all running around solo. It's much easier as an official group (for the most part). It would also make the chat channels more viable as you could issue orders to your team, squad, or party.

    In PvE it's less needed, but would still be helpful for some of the harder events. There have been situatiosn where I outlvl the people I'm playing w/, and want to try some of the harder content. When I get there it's usually difficult to try and follow the other players and help out w/ some of the harder events.

    Again, you're right, it's not necessary, but I do think it would help.

    I don't think that open grouping is really needed for PvE, to be honest. The way the game is set up, you're basically already are in an open group with everyone who's participating in the same event. What is needed is a better way of communicating with the players in the event and /say and chat bubbles will wok just fine. The whole premise of GW2's PvE set up is working with other players without forced grouping. Open groups would take away from that.

    I do see the need for them in WvWvW and squads are going to be basically like public groups. I don't think that they were implemented in the last BWE but hopefully will be in the next one.

    image

  • stevebmbsqdstevebmbsqd Orlando, FLPosts: 448Member

    Originally posted by heartless

    Originally posted by Amjoco

    Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

    Originally posted by allegria

    a. I have not tried Gw2 yet but anxious to do so.

    b. have read quite a bit about the structure/gameplay etc...

    For those more experienced or in the know, what do you think about GW2 will hold people ? 

    The obvious that comes to mind is the WvWvW stuff, but being a "separate game" I question how much personal interest I would have in that...

    Love to hear others thoughts on "retention" and things GW2 brings that will keep people around after they "see the content".

    I really don't think it will hold people PVE wise. I think it will end up being a side game that people play when they have some free time or want something different after they have completed the majority of the events a few times on some alts. I just didn't see something that different in the dynamic events. I don't see what would keep people playing the events over and over when there isn't a treadmill of rewards. Sure the events were fun the first time, but I don't think they are so fun that I would want to keep doing them too many times. Also, even though it was kind of neat to see people working together, the soft grouping really kills some of the social aspects of the game. Since you don't really have to group in the traditional sense, people don't really communicate......though this might be a plus for those who like to solo everything and not have to directly interact with the people around them. The one meta event I experienced also was a bit of a let down as it was more of a spam fest zerg as opposed to a coordinated effort. I think the PVP people will love the game though.......  Anyway, this is just my opinion for what it is worth.

    Whats keeping you from grouping in the "traditional sense"? You can still do it and communicate. People keep picking the game apart because it's different but that doesn't mean you have to stop all your traditional play styles. 

    Communication in MMOs is overrated anyway. I don't really have anything to say to most people I PUG with. Unless someone is doing something stupid.

    What this game needs is /say and chat bubbles. That's it. Local chat has a much bigger area so the people chatting in it are not really in your event "group."

    One thing I noticed is that because the game revolves around cooperation, people are much nicer and helpful. They go out of their way to resurect your character, even risking the death of their own. They come to your aid when you're fighting a particularly tough mob. This game doesn't need grouping in a traditional sense in order to facilitate community building, it does that on it's own already just based on how the game is set up.

    It might be overrated to you, but I know a lot of people that play MMOs because they want a giant interactive chat room. They look forward to meeting people in game. To me, that is more of a community than a random person giving a rez and spamming skills to help finish an event.

    The other thing is that if I don't need to comment or talk to other players, it says something about the difficulty of the content. If there is no need for direct communication or planning and it can be beaten by spamming and constant rezzing...........

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member

    I'm pretty sure i'll play this game next year.

    Retention? ye i think they are a lot of quality stuff, i think it will be high. They are also giving for many play style, i think pretty much all the mmo play styles are covered in this game, open world pvp (ye i know, i know whatever), competitive pvp, pve, mass  pve/pvp content, story telling. And all those aspect seam to be well enough made so that if you are very much in a style, well trying an other one might in fact convert you, so yes at this state i think its aiming for high retention.

  • jondifooljondifool cphPosts: 1,114Member

    here is a post i made of how to spend 1000+ hours in GW2 the first year.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4865078#4865078

    Don't get to caught up in the exsact hours- instead see the big picture - there is alot to do.

    i am not worrying about retention- I am worying about having time to do it all.

    read how to create a succesfull mmo before posting about GW2. And read tao of ArenaNet before talking about innovation in GW2

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