GW2 won't end the subscription model on its own but it's another nail in the coffin. LotRO was the first successful AAA sub based game to show that it was possible to increase revenues by switching to a different pricing model and since then, many other games have copied them to revive themselves.
There are so many quality F2P games available now, it will take an exceptional game to ever entice me to pay a subscription for more than a few months again. SWTOR wasn't it for me, I quit before the first months sub was due. I have TSW on pre order but I fear I won't be prepared to pay monthly to pay for that either when I will have a game as good as GW2 available around the same time without a monthly sub.
One way or another, P2P is a dying pricing model. I can't see it lasting much longer.
Guild Wars 2 isn't the first online RPG with no subscription fees. In fact, you could argue that free to play is all the rage right now. What about the Buy to Play model? Well, on May 15th, a "likely" better game will be released upon the world that uses this same model. But let me save you the suspense. The subscription model isn't going anywhere. Quite frankly, we don't even know how Anet will support the game post-launch. If they do a poor job with updates and such, perhaps one could argue that it's the end of the "Buy to Play" model as we know it. At the end of the day though, there'll be room for both and both can be justified. But people want to pretend that Guild Wars 2 is the 2nd coming of Jesus. It's not. Not even close. I think it'll be good but there is some rabid, illogical thinking in a lot of what I'm seeing.
You can't really compare Diablo 3 to GW 2 in terms of price model. Diablo 3 is offering a small group (4 player) experience that is not even remotely MMORPG. The game is going to be great, don't get me wrong, and it will probably throw games like Tera and SWTOR under the rug...but it won't touch GW2. Guild Wars 2 fans who were interested in buying D3 will still buy both. The games will come out far enough a part that this is not a factor. Not to mention that GW2 will have content patches just like every other MMORPG, whereas Diablo 3 won't. I would be suprised if the first Diablo 3 expansion comes out before the 2nd GW2 expansion.
Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 2 are not in the same gaming category. Sure some people will play Diablo 3 for a while, but it won't have the lasting power of a true MMORPG. It is not really fair to compare them, on either side of the line.
Having just played beta weekend and seeing how this game lives up to its hype and delivers far more in terms of challenging and innovative PVE, balanced and skillbased PVP and a WvW system that is essentially DAOC reborn at last, I now have no idea how subcription based MMO can justify asking a monthly fee in the face of the GW2 onslaught.
Q: But GW1 was buy to play too and that didn't kill the subcription based mmo?
Yeah but GW1 wasn't really an MMO and wasn't a persistent world, it was small group play and not nearly as fun or immersive as GW2. It was in a category of its own.
Q: Theres been tons of free to play games and none of them put a dent in games with subscriptions like WoW.
Key difference here is that none of them were as good as WoW or Swtor or other major sub-games. Most free to play or buy to play mmo's have either been korean grindy games with pay to win business models, games developed by small amateur companies or subsciption games that where so subpar that the only way to keep some customers was to make it free. And the few games that are halfdecent give you very little options and lock away content and class choice behind a cashshop.
If however you wanted to enjoy the highest quality gameplay you have been forced to pay for a subscription based mmo has so far been the only way to go.
Until now.
Guild Wars 2 offers basically the best current gameplay in both PVE and PVP and won't ask subscription money for it. The AAA games so far have been able to ask subscription because only they delivered the high quality that is expected from a subcription based money. But after the release of GW2 how will other gamecompanies now justify asking you to pay 15 euro per month when Arenanet is offering something bigger and better for just the one time price of the box? GW2 would have been revolutionary and likely become market leader in a few years if it had been a subcriptionbased MMO, but because it isn't, it won't just dominate the market, it will change the pricing method of mmo's.
My predictions, with the current global economic downturn people aren't all to happy with having to spend money on a monthly fee. GW2 will already be causing a massive migration from the classic MMO's by offering a better game. The bussiness model however means that there will be pressure on the existing subscription based games to go free. Failing to do that will mean their populations will dwindle quickly as players ask themselves why they should pay for something other people get for free and better.
New games that get released and want to stand a chance against the GW2 onslaught will stand no chance with a subcription based model.
My problem is not with the pricing. The companies have to rake money in somehow. My problem is that if I buy a game...I want to still be able to access it somehow.
I have so many MMORPG boxes sitting in my desk and I won't try them again. Because I'd have to struggle to find a key or resub. I ain't doing that. Some have gone F2P, which is handy but others haven't.
I want access to what I purchased no matter when! Allow me to decide how I pay for it.
All companies needto make money. So no there will never be free mmos. Especially if we want them develop the game further. And what is 15 dollars anyway?? In an economic downturn then more people will stay Home and Play a game then going out and spending more. 15 dollars is nothing.
I d expect maybe more advertisements in game which could take away subscriptions. Not all mmos could have this. Wouldnt make sense to have a Nike commercial in gw2 but Tsw with its real world could easily incorporate that.
I think P2P is more profitable for very popular AAA games. I think the next Blizzard MMO will be P2P. If you can get enough subscribers it means more profit.
F2P is a good idea if a game starts to lose subscribers. If there is 300k subs and probably less than 100k a year from now changing business model from P2P to F2P(P2W really) will be the right thing to do.
But if you can expect 10 million subs and a positive trend P2P makes much more sense.
Nope. Not if D3 RMT will be any success. Blizzard is aiming at F2P+RMT model and they aren't very subtle about that.
I think a RMAH like in D3 is better than a CS. But I doubt it would work in a game like WoW. All the best gear is BOP( no drop). You cant sell it. And if you could sell everything like the best raid gear/pvp gear there would be other problems. Raiders and elite PvP players would not like that at all.
LOL another thread about GW2 changing everything and after the beta weekend as well... wow i would have thought most people have now tested have realised.. yes GW2 is a good game but there is nothing amazingly ground braknig about it..
So no GW2 is not going to change the way MMOS work and i hope we never see the end of MMORPGs with subs..
It will not kill off subscription based mmorpgs, while I do not doubt that GW will be good, you have to remember they charge a premium for every expansion pack.
The standard version of GW2 is very expensive compared to a lot of games, (pc games uk normal price £30, GW2 £50) yes I know the argument of the fact I will not have to pay subscription but lets say I get bored in a month or two months.then it still cost more than other games.
Long term viability has me concerned especially with ncsoft as the publisher, if you check out ncsofts last couple of years finances they could be better.
I am myself going to the secret world and in about 6 months if GW proves itself viable comes down in price, then I will venture into it.
I currently play EVE and SWTOR as my pay mmorpg's, if secret world draws me in then I will cancel swtor.
Many p2p games I have cancelled in the past and resubscribed 6 months later to see improvements.
So I hope tsw catches my interest and if not in 6 months or so I will give GW a chance.
I saw this thread and made this. Say goodye to sub fees ladies and gentlemen.
LOL! Somewhat of a strange analogy but I'm sure the competition felt the impact from the BWE. I however think that F2P games might suffer even more than P2P games. You should have seen the empty servers in AO and the people already saying their goodbyes after having had a blast of a time in the beta weekend. Guild merges all around because everybody knows the exodus is coming.
The people that keep F2P games afloat know they're paying more than they should and many are preparing to move on. Many F2P games will suffer blows like this. When the minority of players that actually spends money on F2P goes, there's not many alternatives other than a radical CS change or simply close shop.
Its amazing just how many superpowers or dread consquences are imagined up for every new game.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Hurvart I think a RMAH like in D3 is better than a CS.
You need to think more about it then. How exactly can you be sure that an item was placed in RMAH by a player and not by a Blizzard bot? RMAH is just a CS in disguise as no sane corporation would pass on a chance to make more money this way.
Originally posted by Hurvart Raiders and elite PvP players would not like that at all.
Who said there will be raids? We have very little info so far but it's not inconceivable that the next Blizzard MMO either won't have traditional raids at all or they won't be the overshadowed by some other endgame activity. What is certain is that Blizzard will gladly sacrifice the vocal minority for a possibility to expand the playerbase once again.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
It really is going to be hard to justify paying 15$ a month after GW2 comes out. The game rivals all the other big games in terms of content and has no monthly fee....can't go wrong there, really. Regardless of if you like it or not, it will sell like hot cakes and they will make a ton of money off it. (Just like the original GW, i mean...they sold 7 million copies i believe and went from a like 7 man dev team to 250+ man dev team, so they clearly made money) This money will be used to create expansions and content patches to further bring new and old players into the game who continue to pay money for cash shop stuff as well as the expansions.
A few months from now when GW2 is out it will be hard to justify an MMO charging a sub.
Not at all, with any luck GW2 will draw off most of the 'unwashed' masses of MMO players and leave the sub based titles to the rest of us. I'd pay $ 20 a month for that benefit.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I saw this thread and made this. Say goodye to sub fees ladies and gentlemen.
im sure after the millionth time you've gotten annoyed at the just fine community that free mmos have.you will probably think differently,just wait.you'll see sooner or later
how's that kool aide taste anyway.i never rode the hype train for swtor,and im not riding it for gw2
Originally posted by Adamantine As this is another of these GW2 threads: Can ANY of these GW2 fanbois PLEASE explain why exactly anyone would bother playing GW2 ? I bought GW1 and I didnt even finished the standard missions. It was just so mindnumbing superboring really quick. The classes are primitive and boring with only 8 skills, crafting was primitive beyond belief, and levelup was pointless too. No complexity at all, basically you grabbed your three followers and mindlessly kept killing stuff. Even Diablo 2 has a better motivation for gaming, because of the item drops. But D2 couldnt keep hold of me, either. And PvP isnt any better. What you fight about is irrelevant anyway. There is no sense of accomplishment or loss, like with Lineage 2 castle sieges. One just gains a bit ressources, nothing remotely permanent. Meh. I utterly fail that anything substantial has changed with GW2. Quite on the contrary - they even trivialized the combat system even more, by removing a dedicated healer class. Other than that, they added fluff stuff like ugly races I wont bother playing anyway. I really think the whole trick of GW1/GW2 is roping people into playing that very quickly are getting bored by it.
Why should we explain to you who already hates GW1/2 why you should play GW2, why? Buy the game and find out yourself im not wasting my time and yours explain something you prolly dismiss and never accept anyway as you prolly say its a fanboism opinion that can't be true.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
You need to think more about it then. How exactly can you be sure that an item was placed in RMAH by a player and not by a Blizzard bot? RMAH is just a CS in disguise as no sane corporation would pass on a chance to make more money this way.
Originally posted by Hurvart
Raiders and elite PvP players would not like that at all.
Who said there will be raids? We have very little info so far but it's not inconceivable that the next Blizzard MMO either won't have traditional raids at all or they won't be the overshadowed by some other endgame activity. What is certain is that Blizzard will gladly sacrifice the vocal minority for a possibility to expand the playerbase once again.
There can be no store exclusive items in a RMAH. That is a very important difference. They could never sell things like xp-potions unless monsters in game also started to drop them(or quest reward or ingame vendor). In a CS it is possible to sell a lot of boosts and other items that are not loot that drops or rewards you can get from quests when you play or buy from vendors for gold/tokens.
This is why I think a RMAH is a lesser evil compared to a CS. Even if a Blizzard bot started to sell gear in the RMAH it would have to be gear that players also can find and sell.
Enjoying a game for 3 days during beta where you can make the constant excuse of "it's beta, wait for release" and you still have a few hopes for improvements is very different from 3 years down the line.
I like GW2 now, how will I feel years from now? I don't know, but I can't shake that nagging feeling that I'll be bored with it. And amusingly enuogh, I also have a feeling the WoW will still be here going strong.
Originally posted by Hurvart There can be no store exclusive items in a RMAH.
This is true. Drop rates can be prohibitively low however. And even better, they can be fine tuned to be just low enough that the best items are slightly out of reach for the majority of players.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Comments
GW2 won't end the subscription model on its own but it's another nail in the coffin. LotRO was the first successful AAA sub based game to show that it was possible to increase revenues by switching to a different pricing model and since then, many other games have copied them to revive themselves.
There are so many quality F2P games available now, it will take an exceptional game to ever entice me to pay a subscription for more than a few months again. SWTOR wasn't it for me, I quit before the first months sub was due. I have TSW on pre order but I fear I won't be prepared to pay monthly to pay for that either when I will have a game as good as GW2 available around the same time without a monthly sub.
One way or another, P2P is a dying pricing model. I can't see it lasting much longer.
You can't really compare Diablo 3 to GW 2 in terms of price model. Diablo 3 is offering a small group (4 player) experience that is not even remotely MMORPG. The game is going to be great, don't get me wrong, and it will probably throw games like Tera and SWTOR under the rug...but it won't touch GW2. Guild Wars 2 fans who were interested in buying D3 will still buy both. The games will come out far enough a part that this is not a factor. Not to mention that GW2 will have content patches just like every other MMORPG, whereas Diablo 3 won't. I would be suprised if the first Diablo 3 expansion comes out before the 2nd GW2 expansion.
Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 2 are not in the same gaming category. Sure some people will play Diablo 3 for a while, but it won't have the lasting power of a true MMORPG. It is not really fair to compare them, on either side of the line.
My problem is not with the pricing. The companies have to rake money in somehow. My problem is that if I buy a game...I want to still be able to access it somehow.
I have so many MMORPG boxes sitting in my desk and I won't try them again. Because I'd have to struggle to find a key or resub. I ain't doing that. Some have gone F2P, which is handy but others haven't.
I want access to what I purchased no matter when! Allow me to decide how I pay for it.
I d expect maybe more advertisements in game which could take away subscriptions. Not all mmos could have this. Wouldnt make sense to have a Nike commercial in gw2 but Tsw with its real world could easily incorporate that.
I think P2P is more profitable for very popular AAA games. I think the next Blizzard MMO will be P2P. If you can get enough subscribers it means more profit.
F2P is a good idea if a game starts to lose subscribers. If there is 300k subs and probably less than 100k a year from now changing business model from P2P to F2P(P2W really) will be the right thing to do.
But if you can expect 10 million subs and a positive trend P2P makes much more sense.
The subscription based MMO will survive.
It is hilarious people think GW2 will make Blizzards next MMO B2P also.
You guys are straight loco
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I think a RMAH like in D3 is better than a CS. But I doubt it would work in a game like WoW. All the best gear is BOP( no drop). You cant sell it. And if you could sell everything like the best raid gear/pvp gear there would be other problems. Raiders and elite PvP players would not like that at all.
LOL another thread about GW2 changing everything and after the beta weekend as well... wow i would have thought most people have now tested have realised.. yes GW2 is a good game but there is nothing amazingly ground braknig about it..
So no GW2 is not going to change the way MMOS work and i hope we never see the end of MMORPGs with subs..
It will not kill off subscription based mmorpgs, while I do not doubt that GW will be good, you have to remember they charge a premium for every expansion pack.
The standard version of GW2 is very expensive compared to a lot of games, (pc games uk normal price £30, GW2 £50) yes I know the argument of the fact I will not have to pay subscription but lets say I get bored in a month or two months.then it still cost more than other games.
Long term viability has me concerned especially with ncsoft as the publisher, if you check out ncsofts last couple of years finances they could be better.
I am myself going to the secret world and in about 6 months if GW proves itself viable comes down in price, then I will venture into it.
I currently play EVE and SWTOR as my pay mmorpg's, if secret world draws me in then I will cancel swtor.
Many p2p games I have cancelled in the past and resubscribed 6 months later to see improvements.
So I hope tsw catches my interest and if not in 6 months or so I will give GW a chance.
LOL! Somewhat of a strange analogy but I'm sure the competition felt the impact from the BWE. I however think that F2P games might suffer even more than P2P games. You should have seen the empty servers in AO and the people already saying their goodbyes after having had a blast of a time in the beta weekend. Guild merges all around because everybody knows the exodus is coming.
The people that keep F2P games afloat know they're paying more than they should and many are preparing to move on. Many F2P games will suffer blows like this. When the minority of players that actually spends money on F2P goes, there's not many alternatives other than a radical CS change or simply close shop.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
Not at all, with any luck GW2 will draw off most of the 'unwashed' masses of MMO players and leave the sub based titles to the rest of us. I'd pay $ 20 a month for that benefit.
Alas, that probably won't happen.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
you can have your crappy community
ill take my better community in pay to play mmos.you think wow has a bad community? you wont really find much better in a mmo that isnt pay to play
I saw this thread and made this. Say goodye to sub fees ladies and gentlemen.
im sure after the millionth time you've gotten annoyed at the just fine community that free mmos have.you will probably think differently,just wait.you'll see sooner or later
how's that kool aide taste anyway.i never rode the hype train for swtor,and im not riding it for gw2
Why should we explain to you who already hates GW1/2 why you should play GW2, why? Buy the game and find out yourself im not wasting my time and yours explain something you prolly dismiss and never accept anyway as you prolly say its a fanboism opinion that can't be true.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
There can be no store exclusive items in a RMAH. That is a very important difference. They could never sell things like xp-potions unless monsters in game also started to drop them(or quest reward or ingame vendor). In a CS it is possible to sell a lot of boosts and other items that are not loot that drops or rewards you can get from quests when you play or buy from vendors for gold/tokens.
This is why I think a RMAH is a lesser evil compared to a CS. Even if a Blizzard bot started to sell gear in the RMAH it would have to be gear that players also can find and sell.
But I certainly prefer if there is no RMT at all.
Enjoying a game for 3 days during beta where you can make the constant excuse of "it's beta, wait for release" and you still have a few hopes for improvements is very different from 3 years down the line.
I like GW2 now, how will I feel years from now? I don't know, but I can't shake that nagging feeling that I'll be bored with it. And amusingly enuogh, I also have a feeling the WoW will still be here going strong.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I'm surprised nobody raised an eyebrow at this but... a GW2 thread on a GW2 forum... now that's a strange concept, isn't it?
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023