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GW2 is apparently PayToWin based on this video... :(

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  • VidirVidir GothenburgPosts: 944Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    VideoLink

     

    The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

    -Keys [edit]

    -Apparently keys drop in-game according to posters below, editing this out :P!

     

    -XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 

     

     

    -Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

     

    /end rant :(

     

     

    That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.

    I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!

     

    Thanks for reading!

     RL is pay to win,games we play today are less pay towin than RL is. lick some b..t to win and you are happy,live sucks.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member

    Originally posted by colddog04

    Originally posted by k-damage

    My god it's crazy, people still repeating either what I wrote on page 8, either asking themselves the questions which I answered to in this very page ...

    When you open a thread, gents, please do yourself a favor, read all the posts.

    So quoting it for the 4th time, maybe it will end the redundancies this time (thanks Jiveturkey12 for the forwarding) :

     


    Originally posted by k-damage

    Re : Keys 

    I looted 2 mystic keys during my first 10 levels of beta.

    What is the drop rate in comparison to mystic boxes?

     

    Re : XP Boosts

    In the second Norn zone, one history quest reward was a +50% XP boost for one hour.

    Someone that had cash could buy 8 of those and have the buff up for 8 hours instead of 1.

     

    Re : Gold

    Gold can only let you purchase "white" gear.

    Gold can be spent on the market to buy better than white gear.

     

    /thread

    That is part of the reason the thread has not ended. Your perception of how "/thread" your statements were was not how all other people percfieved your comments.

    Dear me, okay first of all you guys keep complaining that you can buy gold  with gems and vice versa, yet turn around and forget that very thing when it suits you.

    Sure... someone could buy 8 of those XP buffs with real cash just as someone with gold could turn around and buy the gems to buy 8 of those XP buffs...... so again, whats your point?

    Chests...... again the chests don't even matter, you get a gathering/harvesting tool, one of the buffs you can buy with gold, cash or get in game as quest rewards etc. and some costume potions. Now as far as drop rates I ended up with 3 chests from drops and 2 keys and I got a 3rd key from a quest. Seems most others had similar experiences.

     

    As far as the whole gold thing goes.... you keep harping on this, Karma isn't hard to get first off and it builds up fast. Your better off buying karma gear with karma. You should have enough Karma to buy level appropriate gear without difficulty if things stay the same as they were in the BWE. Why you would spend money to buy something you can already get with a fair amount of ease is beyond me.

     

    I know you have an agenda but... it's just not cutting it man. At some point you need to think about cutting your losses and just let it go.

  • khameleonkhameleon Miami, FLPosts: 372Member

    None of the stuff  he mentioned is true.

    Gold cannot buy the good gear, it is not purchased with gold, you have to earn it with other in game currency that cannot be bought on the market either.

    Getting to 80 1st means nothing, you are lvl 80 in PVP no matter what.  If you xp boost through PVE you probably will just enjoy less of the beautiful game world by fast forwarding and missing content.

    The keys is not even worth mentioning as its an item that drops in the game.

     

    GAME TIL YOU DIE!!!!

  • KalferKalfer HappylandPosts: 779Member
    It's not pay 2 win. Pay 2 convenience. 
  • diabisdiabis Lawrenceville, GAPosts: 35Member
    Well let us all say, that on this one we are dealing mostly with Trolling.  if what we see in gem store is the way of things heck unless you want a little fluff it will not be a draw by any large means, I bought magic drop boot some mini pets and some more mini pets because the where random, and I wanted to see how often I got the same thing  out of 3 packs I only got 1 match up out of 9 and 3 out of 9 that made me giggle so I kepted them.  Drops are decent so I did not see a large scale increase in using them. I love all the stuff I was getting to do so a XP boost nah I had no desire to level out of the areas fast with boost. In the end no P2W here and the game is to much fun to worry about boosting my levels and because of level up I could go play in PvP  worlds anytime I wanted. At this point no one had alot of time with any of the skills so all of us where low going into PvP.

    Look for the Rose with the Thorn.

  • askdabossaskdaboss LondonPosts: 631Member Common

    The only item that would be "Pay2Win" - if at all - would be the resurrection orb (which OP didn't even mention).

    Technically, this is the only item I see that helps winning a challenge - like finishing a dungeon or boss or whatever (so that would be "p2w a dungeon more easily" rather than "p2w"). Also, I suspect that if you want to kill boss X before all other guilds on the server, then having a few of these orbs could make your guild "win" this challenge.

    I don't know how they work though (didn't try them), and I think I can live with the thought that someone is going to kill a boss before me.

  • Skarecrow7Skarecrow7 Oshkosh, WIPosts: 339Member Uncommon

    Oh boy.. ANOTHER cash shop thread, havent had one of these in ages (ages does mean hours, right?)

     

    Dont like it, vote with your wallet. Please stop using the term "pay2win". Like you said, the xp boost is a point of view thing.. and so is the gem for gold. In YOUR opinion this is pay2win... this is NOT a fact no matter how much you and the vocal minority claim. If you say you dislike these things so much that your are not buying this game, I respect that. I am not going to buy Diablo 3 because of the always having be be on-line to play single player. A lot of other will buy it even if they dont like that, but it wasnt a big enough hurtle for them like it is for me.  Do I wish it wasnt there so I could play the game how I want it.. YES. Am I going to crusade to try to make them change it for me? Come on, this is a video game. There are real problems in the world, if you need to fix something, fix one of those. Might I suggest trying to make sure the homless have enough food and blankets.

    image

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon

     

    This thread is so backwards. This is the first item shop I have seen where you can use in game money to buy items from the item shop. Nothing in the item shop makes you more powerful, NOTHING. Sure there are some time savers like exp boost. Even the items you get from the boxes that drop in game and you need to buy the key on the item shop, is not any better quality of an item then what you can earn in game. I think people need to learn what "Pay to win" means.

    PAY TO WIN: Where spending real life money gives you an advantage people can’t get in game that makes your char more powerful in combat by (1) damage boost (2) healing (3) items that are more powerful then dropped in game. 

    GW2 has none of the above listed!!!!! Get over it, ANet has to make money somehow and if you don’t want to spend RL money on in game advantages. Then you don’t have to, as it will not leave you left out of a PvE groups for being gimped or leave you at a disadvantage in PvP as your drop gear is just as powerful. END GAME!!!! You lose.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    Originally posted by askdaboss

    The only item that would be "Pay2Win" - if at all - would be the resurrection orb (which OP didn't even mention).

    Technically, this is the only item I see that helps winning a challenge - like finishing a dungeon or boss or whatever (so that would be "p2w a dungeon more easily" rather than "p2w"). Also, I suspect that if you want to kill boss X before all other guilds on the server, then having a few of these orbs could make your guild "win" this challenge.

    I don't know how they work though (didn't try them), and I think I can live with the thought that someone is going to kill a boss before me.

    I believe that the resurrection orb puts you back into a downed state instead of completely reviving you. In other words, if you use one near mobs, you'll get killed as mobs have no issues with attacking downed players.

    image

  • angrymimeangrymime hacienda heights, CAPosts: 154Member

    I will get more satisfaction beating people in pvp with cash shop purchased cosmetic items.  They will leave a pretty corpse.

     

  • ArthasmArthasm LoznicaPosts: 754Member Uncommon
    To the OP:



    Did you played beta this weekend and tried cash shop? Cause I did and I DON'T THINK it's pay 2 win in this state. If you played and used items from cash shop, then we can discuss. You just watched random dude with his opinion, you didn't touched game and tried cash shop and you basically telling me something different that I already experienced. It's like you talking my wife is bad in sex, but I know she is the best bitch in bed and I know she is the best, but you still talking she is bad. You didnt ever touched her, but you know she is bad even if u never seen her live or even touched her...



    /end of rant.
  • OnomicOnomic TønsbergPosts: 196Member

    Gems->Gold is a much better system overall, sure you can buy gold but its far more important that people can buy cs items for gold then it is to prevent people from buying gold(to no avail as you have goldfarmers in every mmo title). There will be alot of people that will play gw2 that have no access to CC or simply cant afford to spend rl money on it since gw2 has no sub. Its a good evil for the game. The few they will loose to this system is nothing compared to what they gain.

    Xp boost, if you think thats a real benefit you didt play this weekend period. it only boost your monster kill xp. Sure it helps a little but it is so little. If someone can play 1h more then you they have an advantage on you no matter if you use an xp boost or not.

    Karmaboost sounds good on paper for sure, but i had so much karma at level 15 that i couldt spend em all. Another completly useless item

    The entire shop needs a rework to be honest, they have been way to fair with this one. Only worthy items in there was the cosmetic costums, bag space, and content when it arrive.

    Everything else was overpriced and useless.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member

    I wonder if people that make these threads actually played true P2W game.

    I wonder if anyone calls EvE P2W? It sure is by these standards. But...yeah.

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

    VideoLink

     

    The three things in this video that make the cash-shop P2W:

    -Keys [edit]

    -Apparently keys drop in-game according to posters below, editing this out :P!

     

    -XP Boosts, these are exchanged for RL currency in order to decrease the amount of TIME you're spending to level than another person. Standard, cut and paste, advantage over another player in order to level faster, get to other content quicker, yada yada yada. I've seen these very same "hourly boosts" in Asian Grinder MMOs (most of whom have generally failed completely, btw...like 9-Dragons). Time after time it's been proven that uses "hours" instead of "DAYS" for XP boosts has been shown to be pay-to-win. Simple fix if you want to keep it fair is to treat these like a "paid customer" title similar to a $15/month sub. That way you're supporting the game in a meaningful way each month for an exp boost of like 25% rather than getting 50% normal experience for an hour as it currently stands. Again, NOT cool ArenaNet, not cool. 

     

     

    -Lastly, we have the end-all, be-all to the PayToWin situation. If you watch said video you can, in fact, buy in-game gold FOR RL CURRENCY! All it takes is a swipe of the CC to buy gems and THEN convert them into gold. I don't care if the conversion rate is $10 for only 10 gold any time you allow in-game currency purchasing to happen it INCREASES outside source popularity because they tend to massively undercut the in-game prices. Look at StarTrek Online!! The DAY they started a similar exchange system Gold Farming purchases increased by almost DOUBLE!! Seriously ANET, wtf here? I understand the need to allow players to convert gold into gems so they can play for free and still benefit from the store, BUT DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TURN GEMS BACK INTO GOLD UNLESS IT WAS GOLD TO BEGIN WITH!!!!

     

    /end rant :(

     

     

    That being said, I have money to burn and i could easily benefit from this cash shop. However, I wouldn't use it to begin with, but the fact it's there means others will, and that's NOT cool.

    I was planning to buy GW2 a week prior to launch if nothing else came out to hold my interest, however the odds keeping stacking up against me as I'm fervently against supporting PayToWin :(!

     

    Thanks for reading!

    1. Keys

    Thanks for the edit on the keys. In the 38 hours, or so, I spent testing this weekend, I think I had two more chests drop than keys. If you are patient, you'll get keys. The items inside were mostly just some one use functions or buffs, nothing that was a big deal.  I was also able to get a key some where around level 12 for doing the personal story for each character.

    I'm going to assume that during game play you will get slightly more boxes than keys, but you can sell the boxes or even buy the keys, on the Marketplace, so not a real issue imo.

    2. XP Boost

    A 50% increase in XP sounds like a big deal, because in most games, it would be a big deal. However, this buff provides the 50% XP bonus only to XP from kills. The thing is that GW2 deliberately gives very little XP for kills and relies on players doing tasks, events, exploration, gathering and story to earn the bulk of their XP.

    One big reason for this is that some classes have a huge advantage in AoE capability and the game awards XP and loot to everyone that does damage to a foe. By minimizing XP for kills, the imbalance caused by AoE is largely nullified.

    Leveling by grinding mobs is just not viable in this game, even if you have deep pockets and maintain a continual 50% XP buff on kills.

    Since tasks/events/exploration/gathering/story are by far the more efficient way to earn XP, you'd probably level faster focusing on exploiting these avenues for game play than trying to find situations where you would get the most of your 50% Kill XP bonus. It might make sense to pop one of these at the beginning of a long event that you know will feature waves of hostiles, but even if you did this a few times a day your over all leveling rate would not be much faster than it would be with out them.

    Just to give an example of how minimal this might be, let's say 20% of your XP is earned via kill XP (I'm not sure it's even that high). If you kept the buff up for every hour you spent playing the game, you might advance 10% faster, over all, than you would have with out it. If it takes an average of 110 hours to reach the level cap, which is about in line with estimates, you might pay ~$150.00 to make it to the cap in 100 hours of play, rather than 110!

    So, if "Bob" levels with out buffs as efficiently as "John" levels while continually popping XP buffs, at the 100 hour mark Bob would be level 74 and John would be level 80. The only place where level provides a competative advantage is in WvW and the difference between level 74 and level 80 would be miniscule. With the flat leveling curve, Bob would catch up by another level every 1 1/2 hours and a day or two later will have completely erased what ever level advantage John bought for $150!

    In short, it just is not a big deal!

     

    3. Gold for Gems, Gems for Gold on the marketplace

    As long as gems can't be turned back into $$$Cash, there really isn't an issue. Supply/demand/value will set prices and the exchange rate will set a ceiling for illicit RMT, which in turn limits RMT created inflation.

    It is very important to note that gems do NOT create new Gold in the economy. The only way to get gold for gems is for someone to buy those gems off of the marketplace. (Also, there is no way to just trade gems to another player).

    As far as gold farmers, in general, Arenanet have designed the game in a way that makes it very difficult for gold farmers to operate. No direct player to player trades outside the easily tracked mail system. No ability to buy a particular item from a particular seller off of the marketplace for a price higher than the current lowest price. Dynamic Events and active, dynamic content, along with the auto leveling down of characters, to make botting difficult, if not impossible.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • engellenengellen liberty, IAPosts: 83Member
    if they didnt offer it in the cash shop someone would just sell gold online anyway

    played a million mmo's

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon

    I may be looking for reason to not play, idk. 

    I do know cash for gold aint cool any way you spin it. Buying gold is buying gold.

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member

    The way i see it:

    RMT will exist (in myriad of ways) no matter what "type" of MMO is it. It only needs to be "successful enough"

    If you havent bought gold or services till now, you wont need to do it or feel urge to start doing it now.

    OTOH, those who would use RMT services anyway will now give their money to company that made the game, which, hopefully, translates to better game overall.

    And, if you really like the game and want to support it, youll throw a bit of money at them and buy yourself that awsome looking bathrobe that your character wanted so much :)

    So yah, if done right, CS is not really that big a deal, some people dramatize a bit too much.

    Theres 2 games that pretty much prove it: EvE and LOTRO.

  • LeodiousLeodious Abingdon, VAPosts: 773Member

    No, it isn't pay to win. We know basically what's in the shop, and have seen it in action. Nothing there helps you win. You can't be more powerful via anything in the shop. You can't pay for an advantage.



    We know this.

    "There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."

    — John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman

  • strangepowersstrangepowers Chiacgo, ILPosts: 602Member Common

    Originally posted by bcbully

    I may be looking for reason to not play, idk. 

    I do know cash for gold aint cool any way you spin it. Buying gold is buying gold.

    That's a snazzy opinion and all, but as subjective as it is... nuh uh.

    Here is a spin, it gives gold sellers no footing, so less incentive to steal accounts for stock.

    If you want to get real technical, when you "buy" a subscription you are essentially buying the option to access everything within the software program including the currency; you just have to grind/quest/etc. for it.

    And it's not pay to win, how are you going to win with extra gold, throw coins at their eyes?

     Folks making this claim have no idea how the game works.

    The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    Personally I refuse to play any game with a advantage cash shop. XP-potions, Crafting potions, Faction Potions, Resurection Potions, Travel potions, stat boost books and so on....  It could be anything.

    If its any type of advantage that saves time I think its bad. And there is no way I will play that game. Ever. It really makes no difference if you can grind and find the items when you play. If anything it makes it worse, IMO. From my POV its just a credit cards online competition. Or a pay to win fest...

    If someone is higher level, have better gear, can do things I cant do because the person payed for it it makes me upset. And I think its unfair. I just dont like it when it works like that. There is no way I can have fun playing a game like that. And I play games to have fun.

  • wrightstufwrightstuf Carlsbad, CAPosts: 655Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Personally I refuse to play any game with a advantage cash shop. XP-potions, Crafting potions, Faction Potions, Resurection Potions, Travel potions, stat boost books and so on....  It could be anything.

    If its any type of advantage that saves time I think its bad. And there is no way I will play that game. Ever. It really makes no difference if you can grind and find the items when you play. If anything it makes it worse, IMO. From my POV its just a credit cards online competition. Or a pay to win fest...

    If someone is higher level, have better gear, can do things I cant do because the person payed for it it makes me upset. And I think its unfair. I just dont like it when it works like that. There is no way I can have fun playing a game like that. And I play games to have fun.

    Dont you think you're overreacting a bit?

    Do you really think someone that bought and used a 50% for an hour exp potion will have better gear and be able to do things you cant? They are letting you play for FREE forever. Dont you think they should be able to generate some revenue? I havent seen anything on the cash shop, nor do i believe i ever will, that will have any bearing on my gameplay whatsoever.

    AAA title MMOs cost money...Alot of money.. Recooping development costs with box sales prob do the most for them financially. They may even make a profit. But, there is also the ongoing costs to keep the game going. Servers dont run themselves, they require maintenance, you need programmers, billing staff, customer service, and on and on. They dont work for free.

    dont fret it, jump in and enjoy the game.

  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member

    On the whole gems to gold to gear issue - Tell me why would I want to do it, if more often then not I can get equal or better gear for just playing and getting karma? Karma vendors in 15-25 zone already sell green (master crafted) items. If You just play the game and do the content you will never find yourself in a situation where you don't have level appropirate gear. Never. 

     

    On the XP boost  - It's somehting I'd neve ruse in game like GW. It pretty much makes you skip content and thus loose on the fun. You get downleveled to range of the mobs in every area anyway so the benefit of being higher level is dimisnihed. Furthermore you already get exp scaled up to your level even in lower zones, so it's not like it becomes more grindy.

     

    On Keys and Chests - I got 3 keys drop during my playtime. Opened 3 chests. Items i got were tonics that morphed me into creatures without attacks, 2 hourly karma boosts, 1 hourly xp boost and higher tier gathering gear (better pickaxes/sickles/etc). Hardly gamebreaking. 

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    Originally posted by wrightstuf

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Personally I refuse to play any game with a advantage cash shop. XP-potions, Crafting potions, Faction Potions, Resurection Potions, Travel potions, stat boost books and so on....  It could be anything.

    If its any type of advantage that saves time I think its bad. And there is no way I will play that game. Ever. It really makes no difference if you can grind and find the items when you play. If anything it makes it worse, IMO. From my POV its just a credit cards online competition. Or a pay to win fest...

    If someone is higher level, have better gear, can do things I cant do because the person payed for it it makes me upset. And I think its unfair. I just dont like it when it works like that. There is no way I can have fun playing a game like that. And I play games to have fun.

    Dont you think you're overreacting a bit?

    Do you really think someone that bought and used a 50% for an hour exp potion will have better gear and be able to do things you cant? They are letting you play for FREE forever. Dont you think they should be able to generate some revenue? I havent seen anything on the cash shop, nor do i believe i ever will, that will have any bearing on my gameplay whatsoever.

    No I prefer the P2P business model. And if it is a true B2P game there should be no CS that sell any type of advantage or convinience item. Its not free if you pay $60 for the game. And if they need revenue they should release more content that you can buy, IMO.

  • heartlessheartless Brooklyn, NYPosts: 4,993Member

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Originally posted by wrightstuf

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Personally I refuse to play any game with a advantage cash shop. XP-potions, Crafting potions, Faction Potions, Resurection Potions, Travel potions, stat boost books and so on....  It could be anything.

    If its any type of advantage that saves time I think its bad. And there is no way I will play that game. Ever. It really makes no difference if you can grind and find the items when you play. If anything it makes it worse, IMO. From my POV its just a credit cards online competition. Or a pay to win fest...

    If someone is higher level, have better gear, can do things I cant do because the person payed for it it makes me upset. And I think its unfair. I just dont like it when it works like that. There is no way I can have fun playing a game like that. And I play games to have fun.

    Dont you think you're overreacting a bit?

    Do you really think someone that bought and used a 50% for an hour exp potion will have better gear and be able to do things you cant? They are letting you play for FREE forever. Dont you think they should be able to generate some revenue? I havent seen anything on the cash shop, nor do i believe i ever will, that will have any bearing on my gameplay whatsoever.

    No I prefer the P2P business model. And if it is a true B2P game there should be no CS that sell any type of advantage or convinience item. Its not free if you pay $60 for the game. And if they need revenue they should release more content that you can buy, IMO.

    So I guess you don't play any MMOs at all? I mean almost all of the P2P ones have cash shops as well.

    image

  • wrightstufwrightstuf Carlsbad, CAPosts: 655Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Originally posted by wrightstuf

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Personally I refuse to play any game with a advantage cash shop. XP-potions, Crafting potions, Faction Potions, Resurection Potions, Travel potions, stat boost books and so on....  It could be anything.

    If its any type of advantage that saves time I think its bad. And there is no way I will play that game. Ever. It really makes no difference if you can grind and find the items when you play. If anything it makes it worse, IMO. From my POV its just a credit cards online competition. Or a pay to win fest...

    If someone is higher level, have better gear, can do things I cant do because the person payed for it it makes me upset. And I think its unfair. I just dont like it when it works like that. There is no way I can have fun playing a game like that. And I play games to have fun.

    Dont you think you're overreacting a bit?

    Do you really think someone that bought and used a 50% for an hour exp potion will have better gear and be able to do things you cant? They are letting you play for FREE forever. Dont you think they should be able to generate some revenue? I havent seen anything on the cash shop, nor do i believe i ever will, that will have any bearing on my gameplay whatsoever.

    No I prefer the P2P business model. And if it is a true B2P game there should be no CS that sell any type of advantage or convinience item. Its not free if you pay $60 for the game. And if they need revenue they should release more content that you can buy, IMO.

    I see, so if its not P2P, then it should be 0 for the game, 0 monthly, and 0 cash shop, but then make you pay for expansions? dude!...sign me up!

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