Last weeks Extra Credits was along these lines but more about harassment and what could be done to stop it. I found it an intresting watch http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment see what you think.
My own view is that it's up to the communites to take the power back. I mean most of the assholes(Not all) that I have encounterd in games that behave like ass hats have been kids, morons or adults with a very bad anti social tendencies. Surely if we started a dialogue with the games companys we could outwit these idiots?
Last weeks Extra Credits was along these lines but more about harassment and what could be done to stop it. I found it an intresting watch http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment see what you think.
My own view is that it's up to the communites to take the power back. I mean most of the assholes(Not all) that I have encounterd in games that behave like ass hats have been kids, morons or adults with a very bad anti social tendencies. Surely if we started a dialogue with the games companys we could outwit these idiots?
I watched the video and have to say I'm disappointed that censorship is all they really came up with.....I can do that now its called the ignore function....I believe on these forums its called the block function......Why does everything have to be a crusade? I choose a crusade of one.....If I don't like you....Ignore/block With that said I hope you all have a most awesome day!
The real solution is to simply report the user exhibiting bad behavior. That's all we can do as a community. What Moderators and GMs needs to do however is to be more strict on what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Make it clear what isn't tolerated, and be quick to punish those who break it. That is what's needed to set the tone in a community, if you don't have at least this much, it will just get out of hand like it does in LoL or any other game or platform (Xbox Live anyone?).
The group "Fat, Ugly or Slutty" made a website that posts many of those encounters in gaming (mostly XBL), and they also had a panel at PAX of this 2011 and 2012 on online harassement called "N00dz or GTFO! Harassment in Online Gaming" which is a pretty interesting video (can be found on Youtube, about 55 minutes long). They also mention that, based on their experience, the average age of those immature players is actually far higher than what most would think (meaning that a large amount of the harassement comes from grown adults, which in turn may influence younger kids to act the same way)
As for Trolling, the word gets thrown around far too easily nowadays and should just be ignored. It's an overused term that's being used to described anyone with an opinion that goes against yours nowdays (this forum is a great example if you look at the sub-forums of popular/recent titles like SWTOR or GW2).
I may be wrong here, I have no hardcore data, but it could be that there are more kids playing than back in the day and with more kids you get more kid like behavior. Back when eq2 came out it was basically the only game in town(no offense asheron's call and lord british) BUT it required such a high end machine to run properly that the more immature elements of our society couldn't gain access to the game, and those of us playing were truly dorks in a niche market.(and I mean that in the best possible way)in wow you have high school kids and younger running around like little zerglings with unlimited access to you via barrens chat......................in swtor the community is similarly toxic and once i again I suspect l33t dood and youngsters are the reason. The last game i played with a good community was eq2(small but good) and I suspect that is going to become more and mroe the exception.
I can't be the only one who doned my GM cape in a smokefilled room back in the 90's to do some serious RP
Back in those days you'd BETTER use a polite tone when speaking to the fearsome GM, or you would suffer horrible and embarresing perma-deaths to the remotest generation of chars.
I can't believe the stuff GMs and modeators take in games and forums today; they sell out their dignity and the whole PROFESSION to trash-talking sour grapes. Here's what it would be like if I was hired as GM in a MMORPG:
Player: "You need to fix something for me."
GM-me: "Don't speak to me in that tone of voice. I'm a GM in this game, not your personal servant. If you need my help, ask politely and remember the magic word.
Player: "I'm a paying customer, you F%%%k miserab¤%#¤ fail¤#%# ...."
GM-me: "Not anymore, you aren't. You will be auto-logged out in ten sec because your account have been closed and your IP banned from our servers. If you have a problem with that, read page 43 in the user agreement you agreed to when giving us your money. Now stop talking to me, oh, that's right, you can't. Auto-log out. tish-tish."
Last weeks Extra Credits was along these lines but more about harassment and what could be done to stop it. I found it an intresting watch http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment see what you think.
My own view is that it's up to the communites to take the power back. I mean most of the assholes(Not all) that I have encounterd in games that behave like ass hats have been kids, morons or adults with a very bad anti social tendencies. Surely if we started a dialogue with the games companys we could outwit these idiots?
I watched the video and have to say I'm disappointed that censorship is all they really came up with.....I can do that now its called the ignore function....I believe on these forums its called the block function......Why does everything have to be a crusade? I choose a crusade of one.....If I don't like you....Ignore/block With that said I hope you all have a most awesome day!
I agree with you that censorship seems to be the go to move as an idea when subjects like this are talked about. That's not always the best way of solving a problem. I did like the idea about a players behaviour reflecting on the rest of the players in his/her guild. Think that should be looked at more, especially in mmorpg's.
What's funny is that all of you are imagining penalties applied only to other people.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
What's funny is that all of you are imagining penalties applied only to other people.
Just trying to solve an unsolvable problem. Really, I wish they'd make a game tht would only run on a very high end machine, that was high fantasy, didn't allow for mods, and keybinds, that would pretty much eliminate the kids and doods. Not going to happen, just my wish.
What's funny is that all of you are imagining penalties applied only to other people.
Just trying to solve an unsolvable problem.
Not so much unsolvable, but the cost may be too high.
We all want our game to be Massive, like the downtown bustling heart of a huge city.
But we always want our games to be Communities, in the small town sense of the word.
Maybe it isn't feasible to have both at once.
What happens when you pack too many primates in too small a space?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I have played a few games where the community was really good......Ryzom, EQ, EQ2, and a few others have really good, friendly, helpful communities......Thats not to say there isnt the occasional jerk or two, but for the most part these games have pretty good people.....It seems that certain types of games seem to draw in certain types of players......In general, most games I have played that had PVP also had bad communities......
What's funny is that all of you are imagining penalties applied only to other people.
Just trying to solve an unsolvable problem.
Not so much unsolvable, but the cost may be too high.
We all want our game to be Massive, like the downtown bustling heart of a huge city.
But we always want our games to be Communities, in the small town sense of the word.
Maybe it isn't feasible to have both at once.
What happens when you pack too many primates in too small a space?
Of course these punishments don't apply to us, we're practically perfect in every way.
I think you might be right, perhaps you can't have the two, but I recall playing DAOC back in the day and our servers averaged around 1500 - 2500 players online (remember when games told you the exact number) and bots notwithstanding we seemed to get along pretty well. (well, except for all the killing each other stuff)
I do think it will take some real creativity to help improve our communities, basically you have to find some means to encourage respect for others, and that's no easy feat for sure.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The early days of Everquest had nearlly no troll/grienfers for a few simple reasons ~ Most classes were forced to group, regardless of level, progression was very group-dependant, even if you were one of those classes that could solo (Druids, Necs, Wiz, Mag, SK), you still needed things from other players, buffs, teleports, ect ~ If you were an asshat, noone would be there for you, and if anything else, corpse run ? need someone to drag your body? what a ressurection (VERY Valuable) Better not be an asshat
Not to mention the economey was fully player driven, asshats could not sell or buy wares... it was very effective, but like all good things bore in Everquest, they were wiped out by WoW and the birth of "Barren''s chat".
Fansy the Famous Bard is one of the most prolific trolls/griefers that I know of.
I think you missed my point.. i never said trolls, and griefers didn't exist, i said very "Few" in relative terms of comparision to the server's population, in comparision now, it's almost as if today 1 out of 3 people are either a troll, or griefer, 33%~ in comaprision to those days it was maybe 1 out of 20, or 5% of the relative population of the server, now consider the fact that millions play compared to hundreds of thousands, 5% of 100,000? 33% of 10.5 Mil? (WoW's population).. you see.. the point i'm making is sure, there were trolls/griefers back in those days, running trains to zones, kill stealing, camping spawns.. SURE~ But they were some what rare in mostily has it made them social outcasts even Vanilla WoW had -some- social outcasting of ninja's, and trolls but somewhere it changed...
Coming from someone who played Everquest in 1999, communities sucked back then to. Sure, you didn't have as much of the spamming general chat with whatever the 1999 equivalent of Chuck Norris jokes was (though some low level popular zones like Oasis and Lake of Ill Omen could have quite annoying /ooc chat), you still had people that would do any or all of the following to annoy you:
Kill steal.
Camp steal.
Train.
Ninja loot.
Kill progression mobs they didn't need just to keep other people from advancing.
Granted, the fact that there was no instancing, no server transfers, no name changes, and no cross server anything, combined with the fact that soloing wasn't possible for most classes, did give some incentives for people to be civil, but it certainly didn't stop a lot of people from being complete toolbags.
1. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
2. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
3. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
4. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
5. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
I really didn't see any of those problems when i played EQ during its prime (1999-2004ish). As i've said in other threads. There was a reason why Rallos Zek was the only server to kill the sleeper. Its because got along (for the most part) because of actual ingame reprecussions.. That was the peer pressure that acted as the glue to keep our server together. The biggest problem we had was people using the $tormhammer server to bypass the social blocks we had setup to prevent the social deviants from advancing...
Kids now days are raised in a world of no consequences for bad behavior. Society lets them off easy and this carries on into adulthood where they are amazed that things change.
If you try to use PvP to control them in a game eventually the PvP'ers go to far and become labeled as "gankers" and they can never shake that. The games with PvP controls get labelled as gank fests and people start to avoid them.
If the game starts to use their mod powers to ban, suspend, or otherwise handle people the company gets labeled as Nazi's and that is bad for press on the web.
Really till people are actually raised to respect others atleast superficially nothing can really be done.
Coming from someone who played Everquest in 1999, communities sucked back then to. Sure, you didn't have as much of the spamming general chat with whatever the 1999 equivalent of Chuck Norris jokes was (though some low level popular zones like Oasis and Lake of Ill Omen could have quite annoying /ooc chat), you still had people that would do any or all of the following to annoy you:
Kill steal.
Camp steal.
Train.
Ninja loot.
Kill progression mobs they didn't need just to keep other people from advancing.
Granted, the fact that there was no instancing, no server transfers, no name changes, and no cross server anything, combined with the fact that soloing wasn't possible for most classes, did give some incentives for people to be civil, but it certainly didn't stop a lot of people from being complete toolbags.
1. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
2. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
3. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
4. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
5. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
I really didn't see any of those problems when i played EQ during its prime (1999-2004ish). As i've said in other threads. There was a reason why Rallos Zek was the only server to kill the sleeper. Its because got along (for the most part) because of actual ingame reprecussions.. That was the peer pressure that acted as the glue to keep our server together. The biggest problem we had was people using the $tormhammer server to bypass the social blocks we had setup to prevent the social deviants from advancing...
Kids now days are raised in a world of no consequences for bad behavior. Society lets them off easy and this carries on into adulthood where they are amazed that things change.
If you try to use PvP to control them in a game eventually the PvP'ers go to far and become labeled as "gankers" and they can never shake that. The games with PvP controls get labelled as gank fests and people start to avoid them.
If the game starts to use their mod powers to ban, suspend, or otherwise handle people the company gets labeled as Nazi's and that is bad for press on the web.
Really till people are actually raised to respect others atleast superficially nothing can really be done.
I dunno, if kids are raised bad it is the parents fault, not society or their generation.
If a game community becomes bad it is really the games fault as well. MMOs tend to reward players for being jerks instead of rewarding them for working together.
All the games that had the best communities over the years have been more social than the ones with bad communities, that can't be a coincidense.
As someone who has been playing League of Legends for a few years, among other MMOG's, i'm gettin concerned.. the communities are degradating so fast... and the mods seem to be going after the wrong people....
This articles makes me think... What do we do about it as the community? Can we do anything?
As someone who has been playing League of Legends for a few years, among other MMOG's, i'm gettin concerned.. the communities are degradating so fast... and the mods seem to be going after the wrong people....
This articles makes me think... What do we do about it as the community? Can we do anything?
There are many reasons for the communities being more toxic.
Voice Chat, PVP Focus, Solo Focus, Strong Guilds and even the current culture in general
There are things that could help fix it though:
1) Every time someone puts you on ignore you should get a status message that you were ignored by someone. This could stop people from going off the deep end.
2) Some kind of system that rewards people for being helpful
3) More Chat Channels than just region guild world and local and possibly level ranges. If there were dedicated help and newbie and other channels it would be better.
All the people who can't get around in real life because there they get their butt kiced. Basically you just need to do the same, in one way or another, in your gaming community.
But it's funny that you say it in a forum which has exactly that problem.
All the people who can't get around in real life because there they get their butt kiced. Basically you just need to do the same, in one way or another, in your gaming community.
But it's funny that you say it in a forum which has exactly that problem.
You know, i work in Law Enforcement, and it always boggles my mind when i meet someone during while working thats in their 40s, and still runs their mouths to strangers, and then they finally get their first assault.. and usually by that point it's also their last because once you get into that age, people become more erractic with their violent responses.
For example, i was dealing with this guy who was in his 40s, small guy no more then 160 lbs, (He made a funny statement about me bullying him because my arms were bigger then his legs), he ran his mouth to his neighbor about something and the neighbor decided to take a Louiville Sluggar to his head... now heres this guy in the hospital, mouthing off to the nurses, and a fellow officer.. hes wearing a helmet similar to a football helmet, because of his traumatic brain injury, part of his skull was removed, his head sewn back together, staples running the length of his entire head, and here he is STILL running his mouth to people physically superior to him even if he was in 100% perfect health, but hes not.. hes half dead, and the people caring for him are the targets of his real-life trolling.. it boggles my mind how vile poeple can be, and it's not to just other people they are screwing themselves ~ You know why? Guess what we did with him - We handcuffed him to the bed, since he couldn't get out of bed to use the bathroom, he got a catherter stuck down his penis so he would be automaticlly drained of any urine, it's very painful process... done by the nurse he bad mouthed, and she chose to use a bigger tube then required, and used less luberication then she should could have... See how his actions hurt himself more then anything.
Why can't internet trolls realize the same thing... you are destorying not just communities but your own communities.. who will you troll when people get so jaded to MMOGs that they return to offline- SP games?
Comments
Last weeks Extra Credits was along these lines but more about harassment and what could be done to stop it. I found it an intresting watch http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment see what you think.
My own view is that it's up to the communites to take the power back. I mean most of the assholes(Not all) that I have encounterd in games that behave like ass hats have been kids, morons or adults with a very bad anti social tendencies. Surely if we started a dialogue with the games companys we could outwit these idiots?
I watched the video and have to say I'm disappointed that censorship is all they really came up with.....I can do that now its called the ignore function....I believe on these forums its called the block function......Why does everything have to be a crusade? I choose a crusade of one.....If I don't like you....Ignore/block With that said I hope you all have a most awesome day!
The real solution is to simply report the user exhibiting bad behavior. That's all we can do as a community. What Moderators and GMs needs to do however is to be more strict on what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Make it clear what isn't tolerated, and be quick to punish those who break it. That is what's needed to set the tone in a community, if you don't have at least this much, it will just get out of hand like it does in LoL or any other game or platform (Xbox Live anyone?).
The group "Fat, Ugly or Slutty" made a website that posts many of those encounters in gaming (mostly XBL), and they also had a panel at PAX of this 2011 and 2012 on online harassement called "N00dz or GTFO! Harassment in Online Gaming" which is a pretty interesting video (can be found on Youtube, about 55 minutes long). They also mention that, based on their experience, the average age of those immature players is actually far higher than what most would think (meaning that a large amount of the harassement comes from grown adults, which in turn may influence younger kids to act the same way)
As for Trolling, the word gets thrown around far too easily nowadays and should just be ignored. It's an overused term that's being used to described anyone with an opinion that goes against yours nowdays (this forum is a great example if you look at the sub-forums of popular/recent titles like SWTOR or GW2).
Game masters.
I can't be the only one who doned my GM cape in a smokefilled room back in the 90's to do some serious RP
Back in those days you'd BETTER use a polite tone when speaking to the fearsome GM, or you would suffer horrible and embarresing perma-deaths to the remotest generation of chars.
I can't believe the stuff GMs and modeators take in games and forums today; they sell out their dignity and the whole PROFESSION to trash-talking sour grapes. Here's what it would be like if I was hired as GM in a MMORPG:
Player: "You need to fix something for me."
GM-me: "Don't speak to me in that tone of voice. I'm a GM in this game, not your personal servant. If you need my help, ask politely and remember the magic word.
Player: "I'm a paying customer, you F%%%k miserab¤%#¤ fail¤#%# ...."
GM-me: "Not anymore, you aren't. You will be auto-logged out in ten sec because your account have been closed and your IP banned from our servers. If you have a problem with that, read page 43 in the user agreement you agreed to when giving us your money. Now stop talking to me, oh, that's right, you can't. Auto-log out. tish-tish."
I agree with you that censorship seems to be the go to move as an idea when subjects like this are talked about. That's not always the best way of solving a problem. I did like the idea about a players behaviour reflecting on the rest of the players in his/her guild. Think that should be looked at more, especially in mmorpg's.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Just trying to solve an unsolvable problem. Really, I wish they'd make a game tht would only run on a very high end machine, that was high fantasy, didn't allow for mods, and keybinds, that would pretty much eliminate the kids and doods.
Not going to happen, just my wish. 
Not so much unsolvable, but the cost may be too high.
We all want our game to be Massive, like the downtown bustling heart of a huge city.
But we always want our games to be Communities, in the small town sense of the word.
Maybe it isn't feasible to have both at once.
What happens when you pack too many primates in too small a space?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Not everybody. I have been known for some bad behavior myself on ocasion
Of course these punishments don't apply to us, we're practically perfect in every way.
I think you might be right, perhaps you can't have the two, but I recall playing DAOC back in the day and our servers averaged around 1500 - 2500 players online (remember when games told you the exact number) and bots notwithstanding we seemed to get along pretty well. (well, except for all the killing each other stuff)
I do think it will take some real creativity to help improve our communities, basically you have to find some means to encourage respect for others, and that's no easy feat for sure.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think you missed my point.. i never said trolls, and griefers didn't exist, i said very "Few" in relative terms of comparision to the server's population, in comparision now, it's almost as if today 1 out of 3 people are either a troll, or griefer, 33%~ in comaprision to those days it was maybe 1 out of 20, or 5% of the relative population of the server, now consider the fact that millions play compared to hundreds of thousands, 5% of 100,000? 33% of 10.5 Mil? (WoW's population).. you see.. the point i'm making is sure, there were trolls/griefers back in those days, running trains to zones, kill stealing, camping spawns.. SURE~ But they were some what rare in mostily has it made them social outcasts even Vanilla WoW had -some- social outcasting of ninja's, and trolls but somewhere it changed...
1. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
2. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
3. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
4. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
5. Solved through PvP on Rallos Zek
I really didn't see any of those problems when i played EQ during its prime (1999-2004ish). As i've said in other threads. There was a reason why Rallos Zek was the only server to kill the sleeper. Its because got along (for the most part) because of actual ingame reprecussions.. That was the peer pressure that acted as the glue to keep our server together. The biggest problem we had was people using the $tormhammer server to bypass the social blocks we had setup to prevent the social deviants from advancing...
Kids now days are raised in a world of no consequences for bad behavior. Society lets them off easy and this carries on into adulthood where they are amazed that things change.
If you try to use PvP to control them in a game eventually the PvP'ers go to far and become labeled as "gankers" and they can never shake that. The games with PvP controls get labelled as gank fests and people start to avoid them.
If the game starts to use their mod powers to ban, suspend, or otherwise handle people the company gets labeled as Nazi's and that is bad for press on the web.
Really till people are actually raised to respect others atleast superficially nothing can really be done.
Rallos Zek ftw
Life IS Feudal
I dunno, if kids are raised bad it is the parents fault, not society or their generation.
If a game community becomes bad it is really the games fault as well. MMOs tend to reward players for being jerks instead of rewarding them for working together.
All the games that had the best communities over the years have been more social than the ones with bad communities, that can't be a coincidense.
find them and shoot them.
I find this tactic agreeable, ecnomical, realistic, and finally.. satisfying
+1
There are many reasons for the communities being more toxic.
Voice Chat, PVP Focus, Solo Focus, Strong Guilds and even the current culture in general
There are things that could help fix it though:
1) Every time someone puts you on ignore you should get a status message that you were ignored by someone. This could stop people from going off the deep end.
2) Some kind of system that rewards people for being helpful
3) More Chat Channels than just region guild world and local and possibly level ranges. If there were dedicated help and newbie and other channels it would be better.
Right, because the only games with bad communities are blizzard games. Suuuuure.
They arent eventhe worst offenders. By far.
Most sandbox full loot PvP games have far more vile communities than anything blizzard makes. That's a fact.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
All the people who can't get around in real life because there they get their butt kiced. Basically you just need to do the same, in one way or another, in your gaming community.
But it's funny that you say it in a forum which has exactly that problem.
You know, i work in Law Enforcement, and it always boggles my mind when i meet someone during while working thats in their 40s, and still runs their mouths to strangers, and then they finally get their first assault.. and usually by that point it's also their last because once you get into that age, people become more erractic with their violent responses.
For example, i was dealing with this guy who was in his 40s, small guy no more then 160 lbs, (He made a funny statement about me bullying him because my arms were bigger then his legs), he ran his mouth to his neighbor about something and the neighbor decided to take a Louiville Sluggar to his head... now heres this guy in the hospital, mouthing off to the nurses, and a fellow officer.. hes wearing a helmet similar to a football helmet, because of his traumatic brain injury, part of his skull was removed, his head sewn back together, staples running the length of his entire head, and here he is STILL running his mouth to people physically superior to him even if he was in 100% perfect health, but hes not.. hes half dead, and the people caring for him are the targets of his real-life trolling.. it boggles my mind how vile poeple can be, and it's not to just other people they are screwing themselves ~ You know why? Guess what we did with him - We handcuffed him to the bed, since he couldn't get out of bed to use the bathroom, he got a catherter stuck down his penis so he would be automaticlly drained of any urine, it's very painful process... done by the nurse he bad mouthed, and she chose to use a bigger tube then required, and used less luberication then she should could have... See how his actions hurt himself more then anything.
Why can't internet trolls realize the same thing... you are destorying not just communities but your own communities.. who will you troll when people get so jaded to MMOGs that they return to offline- SP games?
I guess the real problem is that troll is like cancer, one person on three will have.
Nobody thinks, Hey i might have cancer and it's always the other one.
As a second similarity, cancer is not a classical desease but the body of a person create it, like the body of gamer would create trolls.
It's not possible to fight it, just accept it and go on, take the good and leave the bad, you might end up trolling about trolls otherwise.
Diablow 3, it sucks ...