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Combat in GW2 for Melee HAS TO CHANGE!!

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  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 583Member Uncommon

    From my 2 days of beta testing, here is my thought on melee vs ranged.

     

    When I'm playing melee, I tend to take more damage, and sometimes way more damage.  It was frustrating at first, but then I realized that it wasnt quite so much of a "stand there and kill this toe to toe" type of combat.  You cant do the WOW thing and just run up to a mob, and trade hits. 

     

    Now that I've REALLY started paying more attention to timing of enemy swing, attacking while moving, and dodging + skills that help defend, I've found it to be quite enjoyable!  Additionally, I think that melee has an easier chance of pulling adds than range just because of being able to see things visually.  And usually when I get 3 shotted, it's because I'm playing crappy.  The OP still may be right that it is easier for melee, so maybe they will tweak things, but right now I feel that I need to get more combat under my belt before I could say with any authority. 

    Another point is that when you group with even 1 more person, 2 on 1 versus mobs and even 2v2 becomes WAY easier in a pve setting.

     

     

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,472Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    That Circle of Warding is nearly impossible to trap players because the cast time. usually players are on edge and can walk over it.

     

    if I move, it gets interrupted and CD goes off!!!

     

    I thought this game suppose to allow moving while casting as a major feature. guess they left out melee attacks on that list...

    so there are zero spells that can be cast on the move?  Do I understand this correctly?

  • HeadBytorHeadBytor F, ALPosts: 93Member

    i moved around just fine in melee and i used the guardian, mesmer and ranger to do so. The only problem I had was the ranger short sword attacks always got me stuck to the enemy due to secondary effects, and it was hard to roll out when i wanted to.

    ranger greatsword was by far the easiest to move around (and most damaging) because it would damage everything in front of you. i'd just keep swinging my sword while trying to get as many enemies in my hit radius as possible.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member

    Originally posted by waynejr2

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    That Circle of Warding is nearly impossible to trap players because the cast time. usually players are on edge and can walk over it.

     

    if I move, it gets interrupted and CD goes off!!!

     

    I thought this game suppose to allow moving while casting as a major feature. guess they left out melee attacks on that list...

    so there are zero spells that can be cast on the move?  Do I understand this correctly?

    No, not even close.  It's mostly the melee classes and it's only a few skills per class.

  • VirgoThreeVirgoThree Tarzana, CAPosts: 1,220Member

    I mostly played as a Guardian this entire weekend and I had no issues with melee combat. My two weapon sets were Mace + Shield, and Sword + Torch. I did not die that often in PvP or PvE because I had plenty of ways of getting out of the fire so to say. Additionally, I did not have many issues with grinding range down with that setup.

    Basically in PvP I used my sword + torch spec to catch up to enemies with the sword gap closer and used the torch for some close up AoE damage. If I started getting surrounded or needed to bolster my defense I would switch to Mace + shield and stand my ground or retreat. It also helped that I used "Stand Your Ground" to get away when needed or pursue the enemy.

    I had slightly the opposite experience on my short bow ranger and that was in PvP I was consistently being murdered by melee. Granted I did not have as many skills as my guardian at that point so it may be something I could build up to and get better at.

  • TGSOLTGSOL Idaho City, IDPosts: 274Member

    I've played as a Mesmer and Ranger using Swords/Greatswords (i.e. I was using melee with light armored, non-melee focused classes) and had not only a lot of fun, but been very effective.

     

    Granted, this was for PvE; not sure how it would hold up in PvP.

  • QSatuQSatu WarsawPosts: 1,735Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    how in the world do you use Ring of Warding with queued melee attack in WvW if everybody is moving?

    come on

    I start with a sword and use charge attack to teleport to enemie. then switch weapon to hammer. use the ability to stop my enemy from moving and then use ring of warding. takes some practice but i managed to kill some kiters this way =]

    I agree that melee seems a little underpowered right now and I wish they will improve it but there are always options to get closer to enemy.

  • goldiewilsongoldiewilson Baton Rogue, LAPosts: 90Member
    This sounds like QQ about not having autoattack with swing timers like WOW, just waiting for that to be his "solution" to the "problem". Or I cant get it to work just like my cheese paladin in WOW the humanity.
  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member

    I'll be blunt.   On Friday I would have agreed with you.   Now it's Sunday and I've stopped using my old MMO melee habits and I think I've learned the RIGHT HABITS for GW2.

     

    Which gets me to:  melee is not underpowered.   It doesn't get you dead by its nature.   You have to learn how to do it in this game, not how you did it in your old game.   Hit-and-move, hit-and-move, hit-and-move.   That's what you have to do.

     

    And for crap sakes, use the weapon swtich!    Even if you're melee, you have ranged options!   A guardian with a staff has a sweet AOE ranged attack you can soften those charging mobs up with.    YOu have AoE melee attacks.   Use them.   Hit and move.  Hit and move.   Soften up groups of enemies.   Don't let them focus on you.   Dodge.  Circle strafe.   Kite.  

     

    And develop your traits.   You'd be surprised how they help.   And you'd be surprised how well using all your tools, instead of acting like it's WoW or LOTRO or some such and you're the tank who needs to stand there and grab aggro, works...   This ain't them.   You keep playing it like them, you're going to keep dying.

     

    Let me make an analogy.

     

    100 years ago boxers got in the ring and beat each other until one couldn't go on.    There was nothing fancy.  It was a brutal beat-down by two guys standing there.   That's most MMO 'warrior/paladin/knight' archetype melee combat.   You just get in there and beat and get beaten on.

     

    Now, for the most part, boxers move in the ring.  You don't move in modern boxing, you're dead meat.   That's GW2.   Learn to jab.  Learn to move.   Or play a ranged class.   Oh wait, they'll get you if you're ranged and don't move...  Sadly, it seems to me that the mobs get smarter as the game goes on.   They understand it's a good idea to trample/shoot the archers and mages.   I know I got shot a lot on my elementalist...   And my ranger...

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    Originally posted by Eir_S

    This is one time I might agree with this guy.  Ranged players have no obvious disadvantages when pitted against melee, and then melee is forced to stop, thereby losing critical catch-up time, leaving them even more exposed to ranger arrows or the niggling little spells from scholar classes.  I like melee, it's fun but it does need to be changed if they want better balance.  This isn't even getting into the PvE, where mobs mow you down if you're melee and you're almost forced to use a gun or a bow if you want to live (I'm referring to big mobs where it's impossible to see all the telegraph animations in order to use your dodge carefully).

     

    lol... I dont usualy agree with him either, but on this one I do.

    The melee needs something to cut the distance in a fight, or a special dodge for range attacks.

    image
  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member

    Originally posted by Fadedbomb

     

    "Rehashing" is repeating without thought or information, that is not what I've done. You can easily get enough information from multiple sources to converge on a reasonable opinion and be informed. It's how I avoided RIFT, SWTOR, ALLODS, and AION. I knew what I was getting from hands on previews on youtube, forum posts, friends who played, and review posts. I never take one opinion over the other, but I "merge" them with common sense to get an answer.

     

    I also was NOT directly responding to you, but the overall theme of the thread. I just happened to quote you, sorry about that ^--^! I ALSO know that each class can use ranged weapons, but that DOES NOT make them "a jack of all trades". If I choose a WARRIOR or a GUARDIAN class I will expect to use pointy sharp metal things to stab or cut my evil enemies to peices!!!!!!

    I SHOULD NOT, EVER, be forced into using a ranged weapon in order to compete with a class that involves the mindset directly attributed to getting up close and personal in order to smash some faces in. Seriously, poor form if that REALLY is what's going on. Again however, I can't land a Beta key into my hands just yet :(.

     

    =)

     

    You still got it wrong.   YOu haven't played game.   You've read some whining.   The people who are whining don't get the combat system yet.  

     

    You are NOT forced to go range to be successful or on par with ranged combat users.   You have the OPTION to use ranged because you choose to put that tool in your box and utilize it.

     

    Some people do and point that out.   Other's don't and point that out.   You cherry pick and get affronted when called out.

     

    Once you get it, you realize it's not unbalanced.   It's just not like old-fashioned MMO combat.   You have to move in melee or you die.   There's no standing around with 12,000 HP and a 1400 AC laughing at mobs doing 3 points of damage to you because you have 80% mitigation...   

     

    IN this game, many of these mobs are your equal.  They can kill you in a one-on-one fight if you foul up.  Never mind that you're dumb enough to charge a herd of charging centaurs...   That's how this game works.   You're not slaughtering zergs of under-powered cannon-fodder put out there by some dev to stroke your ego and make you feel like a god.    Rather, you're going up against mobs that can, and will, kill you if you act like a fool.

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member

    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Originally posted by Eir_S

    This is one time I might agree with this guy.  Ranged players have no obvious disadvantages when pitted against melee, and then melee is forced to stop, thereby losing critical catch-up time, leaving them even more exposed to ranger arrows or the niggling little spells from scholar classes.  I like melee, it's fun but it does need to be changed if they want better balance.  This isn't even getting into the PvE, where mobs mow you down if you're melee and you're almost forced to use a gun or a bow if you want to live (I'm referring to big mobs where it's impossible to see all the telegraph animations in order to use your dodge carefully).

     

    lol... I dont usualy agree with him either, but on this one I do.

    The melee needs something to cut the distance in a fight, or a special dodge for range attacks.

     

    My guardian does.  



    1. Flashing Blade:   Teleport to the target, strike them.  Blind them and nearby foes.  (Sword skill)


    2. Sheild of Absorbtion:  Creates a dome that knocks back enemies ANd absorbs projectiles. (Shield skill)


    3. Wall of Reflection: Protects an area with a shield that reflects missiles.  (Utility skill)

     

    Believe me, the people who are complaining need to learn to play.   And, to be completely honest, I felt that melee was broken on Friday.  Played an elementalist all Saturday and a Ranger this AM.   But when I went to delete the guardian I said to myself, give it another shot and pay attention.  

     

    In short, I learned to play.    So I'm not saying anything but you need to drop the old MMO habits and learn what works in this game.     Once I learned I found melee worked perfectly well.   Then I did melee on my ranger and found that it's amazingly powerful even with the ranger.   And the ranger is amazing with the bow.   But the class' melee is also quite good and under appreciated.

     

    I'm just glad I didn't go to the forums and make a fool out of myself by whining how melee is so broken and it's all unfair.     

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SnarkRitter

    I play a guardian using mace and the only thing I'm going to say is: melee is fine, the OP is just bad, learn to dodge enemies attack(you don't even need to use the dodge abilities to dodge them). GW2's combat is very different from WoW's. Get that "WoW combat" subconciousness out of your head.



    Congratulations sir!  You are officially "that guy" for Guild Wars 2!  Who is "that guy"?  Well "that guy" (which is you!) is the guy who, no matter how valid the original point of the thread is, simply responds by saying "this game isn't WoW", "OP is just bad", "L2P", "I <3 bronies", ect.

    I hope you have fun being "that guy", because those other guys, who said the same thing when Age of Conan, AIon, Warhammer Online, RIft, and SWTOR came out, certainly showed everybody that their game's combat is PERFECT!!!!!!

  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLPosts: 1,288Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by TheHavok

    Originally posted by SnarkRitter

    I play a guardian using mace and the only thing I'm going to say is: melee is fine, the OP is just bad, learn to dodge enemies attack(you don't even need to use the dodge abilities to dodge them). GW2's combat is very different from WoW's. Get that "WoW combat" subconciousness out of your head.



    Congratulations sir!  You are officially "that guy" for Guild Wars 2!  Who is "that guy"?  Well "that guy" (which is you!) is the guy who, no matter how valid the original point of the thread is, simply responds by saying "this game isn't WoW", "OP is just bad", "L2P", "I <3 bronies", ect.

    I hope you have fun being "that guy", because those other guys, who said the same thing when Age of Conan, AIon, Warhammer Online, RIft, and SWTOR came out, certainly showed everybody that their game's combat is PERFECT!!!!!!

    hilarious! lol and true.

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Boston, MAPosts: 991Member

    Originally posted by Fadedbom

     I also was NOT directly responding to you, but the overall theme of the thread. I just happened to quote you, sorry about that ^--^! I ALSO know that each class can use ranged weapons, but that DOES NOT make them "a jack of all trades". If I choose a WARRIOR or a GUARDIAN class I will expect to use pointy sharp metal things to stab or cut my evil enemies to peices!!!!!!

    I SHOULD NOT, EVER, be forced into using a ranged weapon in order to compete with a class that involves the mindset directly attributed to getting up close and personal in order to smash some faces in. Seriously, poor form if that REALLY is what's going on. Again however, I can't land a Beta key into my hands just yet :(.

     

    =)

    Guardians =/= Paladins

    Warriors =/= Fury or Arms warriors

    You can not apply previous frameworks for understanding classes by the standards set in other MMOs. Like it or not, all classes can be effective both as ranged and as melee because that is the design of the game.

    Tell a mesmer weilding a sword that it can't be melee as it goes to town on you at close range, swap to staff, throw out some clones and bingo, ranged DPS/buff/debuff class. I am sure that we will see content where it makes sense to be one or the other or to be able to switch as needed.

    Just because you are used to playing certain classes in a traditional way does not mean that ANet can't redefine them for GW2. Even I was surprised to find that a Guardian with a staff has some pretty strong protection and healing abilities. Add in some specific talents and you've got one hell of a support class with a staff. Put a scepter in his hands with an OH and he's a decent ranged DPS. Put a greatsword in his hands and he's an up-close beast.

    Maybe you want to try the game before you critique its class design, or at least be open to the possibility of something different.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • CrunkJuice2CrunkJuice2 asdasd, INPosts: 568Member

    "In fact, all classes can be effective both as ranged and as melee because that is the design of the game."

     

    ive heard that before,but i also heard that some classes do better at ranged then they do melee

     

     

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    A BIG part of GW2 is its PvP. But looking over how Skills work in Melee, they use the Queue system that GW1 has.

    this causes players to stop moving at times just to activate melee skills. Many Melee class skills from Guardians and Warrior have cast times.



    Guardians mace skills for example, all have Cast time.



    What happens here is that, with lots of skill spamming going on to get skills to go off after another,



    the Guardian skills can be interrupted by simply moving, or using another skill.



    But the skill will still go on Cooldown even if it didnt activate.



    You basically have to stop moving or else waste a long cooldown (30+ second) skills.



    With Moving while casting being a maor focus in this game, this issue with Melee classes gimps them further since they are usually stuck fighting ranged kiters that can pick and nip at you until dead.

    A lot of skills have a animation charge time or require you to stand still or some skills when activated stop your movement. It feels a lot like GW1 where you basically couldn't move around your target when attacking.



    And as pointed out in another thread, the Dodge mechanics dont work to the Melee fighter's advantage. Since most attacks are AoE/Ground Target, most of the time you simply wont be able to avoid damage from massive AoE spam fest that you will encounter in WvW.





    Cast time needs to be removed from ALL MELEE skills or something.



    Right now

    Range > Melee.

    The only weapon skill in WvW for guardians that is useful for fighting is Scepter sadly.



    the rest are only useful to play Buff bot and support in the back with the rangers on your team. Feels very limiting. 

     

    Learn 2 play thats all i can say, if you would ahve played this weeknd and experience the melee you would not have made this topic unless you just can't play a melee very well.

    Ive played a warrior and caster and both where great to play with in pvp, a friend of mine only played a warrior in PVP no complains from him. Oh and maybe you forget you can switch weapons also warrior can use guns and bows.

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Boston, MAPosts: 991Member

    Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

    "In fact, all classes can be effective both as ranged and as melee because that is the design of the game."

     

    ive heard that before,but i also heard that some classes do better at ranged then they do melee 

    I suppose it is possible, not having played all the classes myself I do not know. Clearly, classes are differentiated, moreso as you level them and pick skills and traits to fit how you want to play them. And I am certain that some classes have a ranged advantage and some melee. What I do know is that traditional frameworks do not apply and getting upset because a warrior may be using a gun or a bow and fighting at range and a mesmer is fighting at melee range with a sword is counterproductive.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • PerfectBlendPerfectBlend Philadelphia, PAPosts: 49Member

    A wise man once told me.... "Dont bring a knife to a gun fight."

     

    Guild wars 2 contains a lot of realism....

    This is not the kind of game where u can just charge in blades swinging and expect a level of success against competent players...

    Guild wars 2 is VERY melee friendly..  It has so many obstructions... walls, gates, stones, ravines, crevices that spells will not go thru.. Try to use these to your advantage getting close to someone using a range weapon or spells....

    As I just said in another thread most organized pvp is not about killing and this is made very clear.... its hella easy to escape and heal... but if you force another guy to leave the "point capture" circle you've effectively won the battle...

    A new attitude goes a long way.

  • k-damagek-damage ParisPosts: 738Member

    Originally posted by MosesZD

    I'll be blunt.   On Friday I would have agreed with you.   Now it's Sunday and I've stopped using my old MMO melee habits and I think I've learned the RIGHT HABITS for GW2.

    Which gets me to:  melee is not underpowered.   It doesn't get you dead by its nature.   You have to learn how to do it in this game, not how you did it in your old game.   Hit-and-move, hit-and-move, hit-and-move.   That's what you have to do.

    And for crap sakes, use the weapon swtich!    Even if you're melee, you have ranged options!  

    This :)

    About my experience as a Thief : there are clearly some weapon/skill combinations that are not obvious at first. For example, it's only by reading Thief forums and articles that I knew about the Backstab skill (= when you're stealthed, your first skill changes to another, with daggers, it's Backstab, which merely does 10x a regular hit).

    Before that I was ok in combat. But when I learned how to handle stealthing and backstabing, I really had a clear advantage. I even went to pure pve mob farming just because it felt so powerful that fighting random enemies was fun. Utility skills, too. Rooting, grappling, vanishing, dodging, swapping weapon in the middle of the fight to put a condition (yes, even to only put one condition) or a root, then switching back, etc ... Every configuration is a different fight against a different class.

    For example, I fought a warrior during 5 minutes. Warrior against Thief, the match that a lot of people would think is lost by design for the Thief. I chosed Dagger/Dagger for pure damage, with Short bow for kiting, slowing down and retreating.

    I won. The fight was super hard as warriors hit like trucks, and the player did play very well, but I won. I started with daggers to inflict bleeding and put the guy down at 50%, and when it started to go bad for me, I switched to bow, retreated and kited/rooted while my healing skill was recharging. I healed, inflicted a root + poison cloud at the rooted place, and returned back to full melee with daggers. I should fraps such fights next time to show the nuances in combat, and how chosing the right configuration does make a difference.

    ***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****

  • QuenchsterQuenchster Monroe, MIPosts: 450Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Guardians mace skills for example, all have Cast time.

    The guardian is very stationary while taking up a support role. They rely heavily on ground placed symbols and that 1h mace reflects it. The mace even has a ground symbol spell that comes with it. That parry ability, which roots you to the floor, can be combined with that symbol if you stand in it to unleash an AoE heal if you parry with it while standing within the symbol.

  • dreldrel san francisco, CAPosts: 918Member
    I agree with the OP, Melee classes were underpowered.  I noticed most people playing this past weekend in beta, including me, were ranged players.  Much better stats with them than melee.
  • HrothaHrotha -Posts: 821Member

    Originally posted by

    Both melee and ranged have its disadvantages...

    Who ever says that has never played a Melee in PvP, getting forked by multiple players.

    You still have the advantage of not being in the middle of the fight, multiple people focusing you, as a ranged. No mather what combat situation. You can not talk around that fact. It IS fact!

     

    On the other hand OP: I have no clue what you mean by canceling "casting" animations from melees. I played warrior melee (abit till I /sigh -out) and maces, hammers all have a couple "castings" but they worked fine while moving around for me.

     

    Still the essence of the Beta, of its PvP: Combat has to change... Melee is not versatile - at all.

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by 4bsolute

    Originally posted by

    Both melee and ranged have its disadvantages...

    Who ever says that has never played a Melee in PvP, getting forked by multiple players.

    You still have the advantage of not being in the middle of the fight, multiple people focusing you, as a ranged. No mather what combat situation. You can not talk around that fact. It IS fact!

     

    On the other hand OP: I have no clue what you mean by canceling "casting" animations from melees. I played warrior melee (abit till I /sigh -out) and maces, hammers all have a couple "castings" but they worked fine while moving around for me.

     

    Still the essence of the Beta, of its PvP: Combat has to change... Melee is not versatile - at all.

    Guardians have an AoE attack number 2 on hammer. When clicking/activating it, then moving, the skill will interrupt.

     

    But though it didn't go off, the Cooldown on the skill will activate, even if nothing happened. This applies for all the Melee skills except the first weapon slot, which is basically auto attack.

    that can be used while moving. The rest will root you, or get interrupted while moving.

     

    Next BWE try out this. You will see what I mean.

    image

  • QuenchsterQuenchster Monroe, MIPosts: 450Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by 4bsolute

    Originally posted by

    Both melee and ranged have its disadvantages...

    Who ever says that has never played a Melee in PvP, getting forked by multiple players.

    You still have the advantage of not being in the middle of the fight, multiple people focusing you, as a ranged. No mather what combat situation. You can not talk around that fact. It IS fact!

     

    On the other hand OP: I have no clue what you mean by canceling "casting" animations from melees. I played warrior melee (abit till I /sigh -out) and maces, hammers all have a couple "castings" but they worked fine while moving around for me.

     

    Still the essence of the Beta, of its PvP: Combat has to change... Melee is not versatile - at all.

    Guardians have an AoE attack number 2 on hammer. When clicking/activating it, then moving, the skill will interrupt.

     

    But though it didn't go off, the Cooldown on the skill will activate, even if nothing happened. This applies for all the Melee skills except the first weapon slot, which is basically auto attack.

    that can be used while moving. The rest will root you, or get interrupted while moving.

     

    Next BWE try out this. You will see what I mean.



    I think the "2" ability for the hammer grants retaliation to all allies within the area of the AoE if you use it within a holy symbol. The guardian has so many support abilities that it kind of gets in the way of their damage. :(

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