I can see where people would feel like melee is at a disadvantage with range. I also from what I've been getting from my play time as thief that melee DPS does out shine the range in the actual speed you can put out the dps.
When in PVE at least I can really feel a difference between taking a mob down with melee when compared to range. It is alot more dangerous since you have to watch for mob abilities also but you do alot more meltface up close instead of ranging them for a bit.
/shrug
Sure there's some overall balancing to do still though.
I basically just use melee when i'm fighting trash mobs unless i get way out numbered then I pull out my bow and use it to take there numbers down some then I pull out my daggers again to finish the stragglers off. Also I use bow on storyline bosses because they hit so dang hard and usually get lucky with hits sometimes if I try and kite with melee, so I just use bow and kite to make it a little easier on myself.
I think the combat over all needs changed. GW2 combat is too much of a tab targetting game for mobs in it to deal the damage they do. Even with a dodge mechanic, it's too easy to get hit especially by ranged enemies and litterally makes being melee pointless. The damage needs toned down a lot for the combat that this game uses. I understand what they were going for but it's pretty badly implemented. I was playing PSO2 more over the weekend then GW2 cause of the poor combat. PSO2 is a real action combat game that is challenging. GW2 is a tab targetting game that is more like an arcade game to suck in your quarters with unfair combat mechanics that down you more then it should.
Wait.... so melee classes in this game have animation lock while ranged classes can bunny hop and jump while using skills with no problem? isn't this going to be a kite fest?
Or do they also have animation lock?
I have to say... it's kinda ironic to see so many people defending this when 2 weeks they where all bashing Tera for having animation lock (like all action games do).
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time." otacu
First of all, there are very few abilities that actually root you in place. The rest of them, even the ones that are channeled and have a casting time can be cast while moving.
Melee is a bit harder to master than ranged but it's not impossible. The thing that a lot of people don't understand, yet is that this game is made for you to switch weapons on the fly and it's not a good idea to be just melee or just ranged for most classes.
There are some really hard encounters though, like that shaman that wiped 30+ people, but most other encounters are not too hard at all. Keep in mind that this is beta and ANet is buisy gathering various metrics and things will change for release.
Edit: also, a lot of people seem to fail to grasp this concept but in GW2 you have to MOVE.
Basically it comes down to this, you brought a knive to a gun fight."
Fortunately in GW2 every class has range attacks. So use them and use melee when it is appropriate.
DAOC didn't have this issue ! (Thane vs Eldritch anyone?)
Everquest didn't have this issue ! (Monk vs Wizard anyone?)
ShadowBane somewhat had this issue, but it depended on your build !
I'm worried that people are experiencing the wrong games !
Really? In larger scale PvP range owns. It's like that in very game. I just played DAOC and it was the same thing.
From what I could stomach playing of DAOC, GW2 WvWvW trumps it in every way.
That's a pretty strong statement from someone who used to praise SWTOR and hate on GW2. I guess Anet must be doing something right. DAOC trumped in every way by GW2 WvWvW, that's saying something.
I've been doing a lot better on a Guardian than on an Engineer, and I mean A LOT. Just gotta play it smart and not charge into huge crowds of enemies on your own. The auras and support skills are fantastic, the damage is quite decent ( I'm using Mace+Board and Greatsword ) and the overall package seems much more well rounded than the Engineer, whose kits I found to be somewhat underwhelming to be honest.
I think melee is fine for attacking, but yea the casted abilities probably should be spread out, not all on one weapon. I have only played the ranger and I have NEVER liked melee ranger until now.. but thats more because greatsword does way more damage than either bow.. my weapons are nearly the same lvl btw. So for me I liked the melee set up except for one thing.. damage from PVE. There needs to be less normal damage so that you dont die fighting normal attacks.. yes of course still dodge the big stuff that needs to stay, perhaps make them more noticable.. cast bars on the mobs would be nice so that its easier to see when there are alot of bodies.
I thought I should add that ranger greatsword only has a 3 string 1 ability and a bleed for attacks, otherwise its a charge/leap, counterattack and a stun from behind or daze.
oye MMORPG is dying.. its taken me 3 min+ to fix this typo!
Wait.... so melee classes in this game have animation lock while ranged classes can bunny hop and jump while using skills with no problem? isn't this going to be a kite fest?
Or do they also have animation lock?
I have to say... it's kinda ironic to see so many people defending this when 2 weeks they where all bashing Tera for having animation lock (like all action games do).
there is no animation lock I think the OP is speaking of a stutter when you first use an ability.. or like how if your using an ability that is channeled you cant change abilities.. you can still move while channeling it though.
I personally had no real problems with my warrior on that point. I could bash stuff in melee range and dodge carefully, or go range with a rifle and blast stuff from afar without any real danger (but it took twice as long).
I know, however, that the Guardian has a pretty different approach, but I did not experience it with the Thief. You should also note that Guardians are support and not pure melee -- they can also attack from range (both of them).
There is absolutely NO reasons to say melee is broken. It is not; would you jump into an army of armed centaurs with one sword and some mail armor and expect to survive? It's just a matter of logic.
This is one time I might agree with this guy. Ranged players have no obvious disadvantages when pitted against melee, and then melee is forced to stop, thereby losing critical catch-up time, leaving them even more exposed to ranger arrows or the niggling little spells from scholar classes. I like melee, it's fun but it does need to be changed if they want better balance. This isn't even getting into the PvE, where mobs mow you down if you're melee and you're almost forced to use a gun or a bow if you want to live (I'm referring to big mobs where it's impossible to see all the telegraph animations in order to use your dodge carefully).
I don't know about guardian, but I played a warrior, and it was one of the most fun experiences I've had in a long time.
GW2... I'll give you that! :P
I could move while casting, except for killshot i believe (F1 skill with rifle)... I don't remember if dual axes had any cast time, but I was constantly moving, the only problem i had was skills going off even though I weren't in range of my target (that's a good thing!) just because I didn't know the class all that well yet.
Using a skill out of range of your target will set that ability on cooldown.
But I quickly figured out that your abilities' hotkey will turn white if you're in range of your oponent with a particular skill, so I did fairly well with the warrior in the end, that was in instanced PvP mind you, never went to the mist.
Might be a different story in the mist, with 50 players around you, don't know.
if Guardian can't move while casting, maybe his skills are more powerful to make up for the loss of mobility? Or maybe a bug, no idea?...
my experiance is very similar to yours, apart from i only played WvWvW on my warrior, im not usually into PvP play in MMO's usually leave it for games like TF2 etc but i had a blast to day, played about 8 hours of WvWvW if not longer, as for people running away, just use the utility skill "throw bolas" imobilizers the target for 4 sec's.
I didn't see my Thief or my Warrior being forced to stand still with cast skills, they were perfectly able to move while casting ... wtf are you talking about ?
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
I didn't see my Thief or my Warrior being forced to stand still with cast skills, they were perfectly able to move while casting ... wtf are you talking about ?
The guardian has certain skills that root him in place. It depends on the weapons though. Not all weapons work all of the time and certain weapon combos are situational. Apparently OP found such a combo and is whining that it does not work 100% of the time.
Do people not realize melee does as much as 2X damage as ranged weapons? I use Sword + Warhorn on my Ranger most of the time and only switch to bow when I need to kite for a while and avoid damage. Melee is actually more powerful in Conquest most of the time (though timing your weapon switches between both is the best way to ensure the most damage) due to it's high damage. Use of dodge rolls and evasion/tanky abilities is important in melee range.
Melee cannot be more powerful than it is now. If they buff it, it will be over the top.
From my 2 days of beta testing, here is my thought on melee vs ranged.
When I'm playing melee, I tend to take more damage, and sometimes way more damage. It was frustrating at first, but then I realized that it wasnt quite so much of a "stand there and kill this toe to toe" type of combat. You cant do the WOW thing and just run up to a mob, and trade hits.
Now that I've REALLY started paying more attention to timing of enemy swing, attacking while moving, and dodging + skills that help defend, I've found it to be quite enjoyable! Additionally, I think that melee has an easier chance of pulling adds than range just because of being able to see things visually. And usually when I get 3 shotted, it's because I'm playing crappy. The OP still may be right that it is easier for melee, so maybe they will tweak things, but right now I feel that I need to get more combat under my belt before I could say with any authority.
Another point is that when you group with even 1 more person, 2 on 1 versus mobs and even 2v2 becomes WAY easier in a pve setting.
Comments
I basically just use melee when i'm fighting trash mobs unless i get way out numbered then I pull out my bow and use it to take there numbers down some then I pull out my daggers again to finish the stragglers off. Also I use bow on storyline bosses because they hit so dang hard and usually get lucky with hits sometimes if I try and kite with melee, so I just use bow and kite to make it a little easier on myself.
Wait.... so melee classes in this game have animation lock while ranged classes can bunny hop and jump while using skills with no problem? isn't this going to be a kite fest?
Or do they also have animation lock?
I have to say... it's kinda ironic to see so many people defending this when 2 weeks they where all bashing Tera for having animation lock (like all action games do).
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu
First of all, there are very few abilities that actually root you in place. The rest of them, even the ones that are channeled and have a casting time can be cast while moving.
Melee is a bit harder to master than ranged but it's not impossible. The thing that a lot of people don't understand, yet is that this game is made for you to switch weapons on the fly and it's not a good idea to be just melee or just ranged for most classes.
There are some really hard encounters though, like that shaman that wiped 30+ people, but most other encounters are not too hard at all. Keep in mind that this is beta and ANet is buisy gathering various metrics and things will change for release.
Edit: also, a lot of people seem to fail to grasp this concept but in GW2 you have to MOVE.
That's a pretty strong statement from someone who used to praise SWTOR and hate on GW2. I guess Anet must be doing something right. DAOC trumped in every way by GW2 WvWvW, that's saying something.
I think melee is fine for attacking, but yea the casted abilities probably should be spread out, not all on one weapon. I have only played the ranger and I have NEVER liked melee ranger until now.. but thats more because greatsword does way more damage than either bow.. my weapons are nearly the same lvl btw. So for me I liked the melee set up except for one thing.. damage from PVE. There needs to be less normal damage so that you dont die fighting normal attacks.. yes of course still dodge the big stuff that needs to stay, perhaps make them more noticable.. cast bars on the mobs would be nice so that its easier to see when there are alot of bodies.
I thought I should add that ranger greatsword only has a 3 string 1 ability and a bleed for attacks, otherwise its a charge/leap, counterattack and a stun from behind or daze.
oye MMORPG is dying.. its taken me 3 min+ to fix this typo!
there is no animation lock I think the OP is speaking of a stutter when you first use an ability.. or like how if your using an ability that is channeled you cant change abilities.. you can still move while channeling it though.
You can melee and kill stuff twice as fast but run the risk of getting 1 or 2-shot.
You can range and take twice as long to kill stuff but take little to no damage.
This is for PVE of course as i destroy people with melee in PVP. You just need to pick your battles and not run into packs of people.
Seems fine to me but i haven't seen some of the large boss encounters later on so my opinion may change.
how in the world do you use Ring of Warding with queued melee attack in WvW if everybody is moving?
come on
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I just tried this again with Hammer.
Mighty Blow can be interrupted by Movement. WTF!!!
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Doesn't sound like a good PvP weapon choice.
I personally had no real problems with my warrior on that point. I could bash stuff in melee range and dodge carefully, or go range with a rifle and blast stuff from afar without any real danger (but it took twice as long).
I know, however, that the Guardian has a pretty different approach, but I did not experience it with the Thief. You should also note that Guardians are support and not pure melee -- they can also attack from range (both of them).
There is absolutely NO reasons to say melee is broken. It is not; would you jump into an army of armed centaurs with one sword and some mail armor and expect to survive? It's just a matter of logic.
my experiance is very similar to yours, apart from i only played WvWvW on my warrior, im not usually into PvP play in MMO's usually leave it for games like TF2 etc but i had a blast to day, played about 8 hours of WvWvW if not longer, as for people running away, just use the utility skill "throw bolas" imobilizers the target for 4 sec's.
"They will balance, nerf, buff, and adjust as necessary."
they can balance,but theres a difference between balancing pvp right.and balancing it wrong
That Circle of Warding is nearly impossible to trap players because the cast time. usually players are on edge and can walk over it.
if I move, it gets interrupted and CD goes off!!!
I thought this game suppose to allow moving while casting as a major feature. guess they left out melee attacks on that list...
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
ya it doesnt really make sense that a melee cant cast and move anyway
thats like,taking out the entire reason why ive loved melee dps over ranged and casters in other mmorpgs.oh well,mesmer seemed like a fun class
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The guardian has certain skills that root him in place. It depends on the weapons though. Not all weapons work all of the time and certain weapon combos are situational. Apparently OP found such a combo and is whining that it does not work 100% of the time.
Do people not realize melee does as much as 2X damage as ranged weapons? I use Sword + Warhorn on my Ranger most of the time and only switch to bow when I need to kite for a while and avoid damage. Melee is actually more powerful in Conquest most of the time (though timing your weapon switches between both is the best way to ensure the most damage) due to it's high damage. Use of dodge rolls and evasion/tanky abilities is important in melee range.
Melee cannot be more powerful than it is now. If they buff it, it will be over the top.
Kinda like how Warhammer turned out in the later levels
I'll add in my vote into the overwhelming "melee is fine learn 2 play" category.
PLayed guardian and it was fine. ran around with mace shield and sword shield most of the time in WvW.
From my 2 days of beta testing, here is my thought on melee vs ranged.
When I'm playing melee, I tend to take more damage, and sometimes way more damage. It was frustrating at first, but then I realized that it wasnt quite so much of a "stand there and kill this toe to toe" type of combat. You cant do the WOW thing and just run up to a mob, and trade hits.
Now that I've REALLY started paying more attention to timing of enemy swing, attacking while moving, and dodging + skills that help defend, I've found it to be quite enjoyable! Additionally, I think that melee has an easier chance of pulling adds than range just because of being able to see things visually. And usually when I get 3 shotted, it's because I'm playing crappy. The OP still may be right that it is easier for melee, so maybe they will tweak things, but right now I feel that I need to get more combat under my belt before I could say with any authority.
Another point is that when you group with even 1 more person, 2 on 1 versus mobs and even 2v2 becomes WAY easier in a pve setting.
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