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When do we grow stagnant (when do we become those guys)?

124

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  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    As said before, too many mmorpgs are too similar to each other =/= new experiences/allow new experiences while playing with enough frequency. Interesting parallel:

    Holiday Paradox Explains Why Time Flies

    And the article touches indirectly on the "new and shiny" effect as far as video games go.  Why is it that only First Games (call it early games if you feel compelled to object with an anecdote) has that Gosh WoW built into it, making every game the follows somewhat disappointing?

    It seems to be that there just aren't many truly new experiences to be had in this genre, despite innovation that should (in theory anyway) make the experience feel special again.  First Games were a vacation, and they were unique experiences.  At the same time, there really isn't any game fifteen years later that can feel the same, no matter how "innovative" it seems to be.

    It does apprehend that angle as well. Often you see that people sometimes just  "need a break from mmorpgs" before they are then back to being enjoyable again.

    But for how long?

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    Originally posted by Icewhite


    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    As said before, too many mmorpgs are too similar to each other =/= new experiences/allow new experiences while playing with enough frequency. Interesting parallel:

    Holiday Paradox Explains Why Time Flies

    And the article touches indirectly on the "new and shiny" effect as far as video games go.  Why is it that only First Games (call it early games if you feel compelled to object with an anecdote) has that Gosh WoW built into it, making every game the follows somewhat disappointing?

    It seems to be that there just aren't many truly new experiences to be had in this genre, despite innovation that should (in theory anyway) make the experience feel special again.  First Games were a vacation, and they were unique experiences.  At the same time, there really isn't any game fifteen years later that can feel the same, no matter how "innovative" it seems to be.

    It does apprehend that angle as well. Often you see that people sometimes just  "need a break from mmorpgs" before they are then back to being enjoyable again.

    But for how long?

    Well, I haven't put in more than a month into an MMO in over 3 years (and I'm not a content locust either)... so if you find the answer please let me know... /sadpanda

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    Originally posted by MumboJumbo


    Originally posted by Icewhite


    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    As said before, too many mmorpgs are too similar to each other =/= new experiences/allow new experiences while playing with enough frequency. Interesting parallel:

    Holiday Paradox Explains Why Time Flies

    And the article touches indirectly on the "new and shiny" effect as far as video games go.  Why is it that only First Games (call it early games if you feel compelled to object with an anecdote) has that Gosh WoW built into it, making every game the follows somewhat disappointing?

    It seems to be that there just aren't many truly new experiences to be had in this genre, despite innovation that should (in theory anyway) make the experience feel special again.  First Games were a vacation, and they were unique experiences.  At the same time, there really isn't any game fifteen years later that can feel the same, no matter how "innovative" it seems to be.

    It does apprehend that angle as well. Often you see that people sometimes just  "need a break from mmorpgs" before they are then back to being enjoyable again.

    But for how long?

    Well, I haven't put in more than a month into an MMO in over 3 years (and I'm not a content locust either)... so if you find the answer please let me know... /sadpanda

    Same, since 2008. :( Not counting GW1 which I've played off and on since the beginning. I've only purchased one other MMO since 2008 and only played it the first month. Not sure if I am a sad panda. Glad I did take a break, I'm still sort of on my break in fact :)

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member

    You become those guys when MMOs are so easy they are actually boring to play and you would rather be doing yard work than playing the MMO.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by OberanMiM

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by OberanMiM


     

     

    As opposed to what? Today's Instance/Daily grind games that have a story that hardly anyone reads because its too time consuming and they have a pointer that shows you exactly how to complete a quest? Sure Raids could happen at any time because of no instances, but that also meant you werent raiding constantly and had a reason to log in outside of raiding.

     

    I prefered the heavily social games, they didn't feel like a grind to me, they felt like i was hanging out with friends, nowadays people don't even bother to get to know the players outside of their small circle (many players don't even know their own guildmates). To contrast i still keep in touch with more players from UO/EQ than i ever did from the games afterwards.

    And i prefer a hack-n-slash combat game. I don't play games to make friends. Sure, i got to know some people from EQ, and WOW, but they are not real friends, just good play partners.

    Plus, why do anyone has to *read*? Do you have a thing called VOICE OVER? TOR has it, DC Universe has it .. WOW should have more of it.

    If I do not have to read in SKYRIM or Deus Ex, i do not see a good reason why i have to in a MMO.

     

    You mean those voiceovers in TOR that lead up to a repetitive "kill x enemies" anyways. From what i understand most people reach a point they just click spacebar to bypass them anyways.  Not listening to them is the same as not reading them.

    Plus i can't stand games that only have voice overs, they completely ruin the atmosphere in some games when some of the Characters don't talk the way you would expect. In my mind its fluff that takes away from improving other parts of the game (plus it slows down adding content unless you are content with all the characters sharing about 12 voices in the whole game)

     

    No difference from the VO in Skyrim which leads to "kill all bandits in this cave" quests. If you like one, you should like the other.

    Plus, the original post is specific about text. And yes, you can spacebar  it, but it still does NOT require any reading.

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by OberanMiM


    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by OberanMiM


     

     

    As opposed to what? Today's Instance/Daily grind games that have a story that hardly anyone reads because its too time consuming and they have a pointer that shows you exactly how to complete a quest? Sure Raids could happen at any time because of no instances, but that also meant you werent raiding constantly and had a reason to log in outside of raiding.

     

    I prefered the heavily social games, they didn't feel like a grind to me, they felt like i was hanging out with friends, nowadays people don't even bother to get to know the players outside of their small circle (many players don't even know their own guildmates). To contrast i still keep in touch with more players from UO/EQ than i ever did from the games afterwards.

    And i prefer a hack-n-slash combat game. I don't play games to make friends. Sure, i got to know some people from EQ, and WOW, but they are not real friends, just good play partners.

    Plus, why do anyone has to *read*? Do you have a thing called VOICE OVER? TOR has it, DC Universe has it .. WOW should have more of it.

    If I do not have to read in SKYRIM or Deus Ex, i do not see a good reason why i have to in a MMO.

     

    You mean those voiceovers in TOR that lead up to a repetitive "kill x enemies" anyways. From what i understand most people reach a point they just click spacebar to bypass them anyways.  Not listening to them is the same as not reading them.

    Plus i can't stand games that only have voice overs, they completely ruin the atmosphere in some games when some of the Characters don't talk the way you would expect. In my mind its fluff that takes away from improving other parts of the game (plus it slows down adding content unless you are content with all the characters sharing about 12 voices in the whole game)

     

    No difference from the VO in Skyrim which leads to "kill all bandits in this cave" quests. If you like one, you should like the other.

    Plus, the original post is specific about text. And yes, you can spacebar  it, but it still does NOT require any reading.

    But in Oblivion Patrick Stewart was hitting on me! He said I was the one from his dreams!...I guess being in prison will do that to you though.

    Really I could do without voiceovers for every character. The youngsters today need more reading practice anyway. Voiceovers technology in video games today I think are a big reason why so many people are crappy at reading.

  • DecemvirusDecemvirus SantosPosts: 52Member

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by OberanMiM


    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by OberanMiM


     

     

    As opposed to what? Today's Instance/Daily grind games that have a story that hardly anyone reads because its too time consuming and they have a pointer that shows you exactly how to complete a quest? Sure Raids could happen at any time because of no instances, but that also meant you werent raiding constantly and had a reason to log in outside of raiding.

     

    I prefered the heavily social games, they didn't feel like a grind to me, they felt like i was hanging out with friends, nowadays people don't even bother to get to know the players outside of their small circle (many players don't even know their own guildmates). To contrast i still keep in touch with more players from UO/EQ than i ever did from the games afterwards.

    And i prefer a hack-n-slash combat game. I don't play games to make friends. Sure, i got to know some people from EQ, and WOW, but they are not real friends, just good play partners.

    Plus, why do anyone has to *read*? Do you have a thing called VOICE OVER? TOR has it, DC Universe has it .. WOW should have more of it.

    If I do not have to read in SKYRIM or Deus Ex, i do not see a good reason why i have to in a MMO.

     

    You mean those voiceovers in TOR that lead up to a repetitive "kill x enemies" anyways. From what i understand most people reach a point they just click spacebar to bypass them anyways.  Not listening to them is the same as not reading them.

    Plus i can't stand games that only have voice overs, they completely ruin the atmosphere in some games when some of the Characters don't talk the way you would expect. In my mind its fluff that takes away from improving other parts of the game (plus it slows down adding content unless you are content with all the characters sharing about 12 voices in the whole game)

     

    No difference from the VO in Skyrim which leads to "kill all bandits in this cave" quests. If you like one, you should like the other.

    Plus, the original post is specific about text. And yes, you can spacebar  it, but it still does NOT require any reading.

    But in Oblivion Patrick Stewart was hitting on me! He said I was the one from his dreams!...I guess being in prison will do that to you though.

    Really I could do without voiceovers for every character. The youngsters today need more reading practice anyway. Voiceovers technology in video games today I think are a big reason why so many people are crappy at reading.

    So you're presuming they will actually stop and read the content?

    I bet only if they get exp or gear for that. Guess what, seems like a nice ideia, the way things are today, I'd rather get experience from the time that I spend reading lore and quests than the awful grinding time we need to spend killing mobs and handling those packed 10 spider-legs to the quest giver. Haha, maybe it would work: "Write a summary on the background story of this quest chain to win a bonus 90k exp"

    :D Cheers!

    "You know, this place makes me wonder. Which would be worse, to live as a monster or to die as a good man?"

  • JimyHumuHumuJimyHumuHumu BilbaoPosts: 250Member

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Doesn't mean we're stagnant at all, if we're going to use analogies it would be better to imagine what would it be like if smart phones didn't actually make phone calls anymore because more people prefer to text/facebook/twitter instead.

    Modern MMO's are more like that example, lots of flash and style, but a bit short on depth and features.

     

    pretty much this.

     

    mmos are getting ... dumbernized, if thats a word. And for people who played a non-retarded version of something, playing dumber, easier, shallower version of same thing doesnt feel that thrilling anymore. MMOS arent stagnating, they are just getting dumber, and a lot easier. Most things tend to grow better and better, mmos are actually going backwards.

     

    Soon enough we'll end up with next wow killer, which is gonna be Super Mario 2 - 3D, with only 2 skills and same features as super nintendo game had. And they are gonna call it next-gen game. 

     

    Dont think its us to blame. Most genres evolved, while mmos are going backwards. Now you have FPS's with rpg elements,  rts with rpg elements. And there are mmos that are actually getting rid of mmo elements, just to make their games easier and brainless friendly.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Doesn't mean we're stagnant at all, if we're going to use analogies it would be better to imagine what would it be like if smart phones didn't actually make phone calls anymore because more people prefer to text/facebook/twitter instead.

    Modern MMO's are more like that example, lots of flash and style, but a bit short on depth and features.

     

    pretty much this.

     

    mmos are getting ... dumbernized, if thats a word. And for people who played a non-retarded version of something, playing dumber, easier, shallower version of same thing doesnt feel that thrilling anymore. MMOS arent stagnating, they are just getting dumber, and a lot easier. Most things tend to grow better and better, mmos are actually going backwards.

     

    Soon enough we'll end up with next wow killer, which is gonna be Super Mario 2 - 3D, with only 2 skills and same features as super nintendo game had. And they are gonna call it next-gen game. 

     

    Dont think its us to blame. Most genres evolved, while mmos are going backwards. Now you have FPS's with rpg elements,  rts with rpg elements. And there are mmos that are actually getting rid of mmo elements, just to make their games easier and brainless friendly.

    Posts like this really shows why people that doesn't understand how game machanics/designs work, should not make games.

    Tedious =/= hard

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • JimyHumuHumuJimyHumuHumu BilbaoPosts: 250Member

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu


    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Doesn't mean we're stagnant at all, if we're going to use analogies it would be better to imagine what would it be like if smart phones didn't actually make phone calls anymore because more people prefer to text/facebook/twitter instead.

    Modern MMO's are more like that example, lots of flash and style, but a bit short on depth and features.

     

    pretty much this.

     

    mmos are getting ... dumbernized, if thats a word. And for people who played a non-retarded version of something, playing dumber, easier, shallower version of same thing doesnt feel that thrilling anymore. MMOS arent stagnating, they are just getting dumber, and a lot easier. Most things tend to grow better and better, mmos are actually going backwards.

     

    Soon enough we'll end up with next wow killer, which is gonna be Super Mario 2 - 3D, with only 2 skills and same features as super nintendo game had. And they are gonna call it next-gen game. 

     

    Dont think its us to blame. Most genres evolved, while mmos are going backwards. Now you have FPS's with rpg elements,  rts with rpg elements. And there are mmos that are actually getting rid of mmo elements, just to make their games easier and brainless friendly.

    Posts like this really shows why people that doesn't understand how game machanics/designs work, should not make games.

    Tedious =/= hard

    Tedious for me  = doing same instance 800 times. For you that might be fun. See, not everyone is like you. :o) Yep, i just made a random accusation of your likes and dislikes. Crazy isnt it.

     

    Btw, I never said games should be hard, or tedious. Somehow you managed to quote my post, ignore it, and give reply to something i never said, so kudos to you :P

    All i said is i dont believe mmos should be playable with just 1 brain cell on,  and most new mmos can be played while watching tv at the same time. 

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Doesn't mean we're stagnant at all, if we're going to use analogies it would be better to imagine what would it be like if smart phones didn't actually make phone calls anymore because more people prefer to text/facebook/twitter instead.

    Modern MMO's are more like that example, lots of flash and style, but a bit short on depth and features.

     

    pretty much this.

     

    mmos are getting ... dumbernized, if thats a word. And for people who played a non-retarded version of something, playing dumber, easier, shallower version of same thing doesnt feel that thrilling anymore. MMOS arent stagnating, they are just getting dumber, and a lot easier. Most things tend to grow better and better, mmos are actually going backwards.

     

    Soon enough we'll end up with next wow killer, which is gonna be Super Mario 2 - 3D, with only 2 skills and same features as super nintendo game had. And they are gonna call it next-gen game. 

     

    Dont think its us to blame. Most genres evolved, while mmos are going backwards. Now you have FPS's with rpg elements,  rts with rpg elements. And there are mmos that are actually getting rid of mmo elements, just to make their games easier and brainless friendly.

    Sorry, but you're wrong. Today's games are more complex than yesteryears. there are far more systems involved, and more work put into them than before.

    Anyone can make an empty world with a bunch of static mobs that respawn and chase you across the entire zone and run faster than you and make you get your corpse. That doesn't mean you've made a complex game.

    image
  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon

    I guess I'd be considered one of the 'new' generation as I started MMOs with SWTOR, but quickly went through a slew of older games including EQ1 and 2 which I instantly found better than SWTOR.

    To me what has changed is when I play EQ1 or EQ2, it felt like a world and honestly like a PC game.  Deep lore that you could sink into, persistent world, sense of complexity,etc.   For me the MMOs they have come out recently remind me of my console games.  Less emphasis on story and more on action and progression. Many, many copy cat/Me too games.  I stopped playing consoles for this very reason.

    In terms of what I think has been removed for the worst, the sandbox elements. The freedom to do the small things that kept you in the world.  The wonder of exploring a virtual world. Not so much grinding, but the sense that it took *time* and invested effort to reach that next level.  Today you get the first 10 levels in a half hour.

    Hopefully some developer will take a risk to return to some of these elements with updated functionality.

    image
  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu


    Originally posted by Kyleran

     

    Sorry, but you're wrong. Today's games are more complex than yesteryears. there are far more systems involved, and more work put into them than before.

    Anyone can make an empty world with a bunch of static mobs that respawn and chase you across the entire zone and run faster than you and make you get your corpse. That doesn't mean you've made a complex game.

    More work goes into removing the complexity to make new games simpler for the end user, and to make the game look prettier..

    Not sure what empty world with static mobs you're talking about. I've certainly never played an older game that fits that description.

    I've played games that make you pay attemtion to your surroundings; games where dark caverns are actually dark and require you to bring a source of light; games where the time of day cycle in game means the difference between trapsing happily through a forest, or having a horde of undead gnawing on your bones.

    I've played games where your race/class combination not only affected your playstyle, but which NPCs did or didn't want you dead; where even when they did want you dead, you had the ability to earn their trust by slaying their enemies; games where a quest was a quest, not a mindless errand to feed a hungry farmer in exchange for some pants; where epic actually meant epic, and wasn't just another word for "purple".

    So yeah...what games were you playing? Or were you just making blind assumptions?

  • BartDaCatBartDaCat Renton, WAPosts: 819Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    I guess I'd be considered one of the 'new' generation as I started MMOs with SWTOR, but quickly went through a slew of older games including EQ1 and 2 which I instantly found better than SWTOR.

    To me what has changed is when I play EQ1 or EQ2, it felt like a world and honestly like a PC game.  Deep lore that you could sink into, persistent world, sense of complexity,etc.   For me the MMOs they have come out recently remind me of my console games.  Less emphasis on story and more on action and progression. Many, many copy cat/Me too games.  I stopped playing consoles for this very reason.

    In terms of what I think has been removed for the worst, the sandbox elements. The freedom to do the small things that kept you in the world.  The wonder of exploring a virtual world. Not so much grinding, but the sense that it took *time* and invested effort to reach that next level.  Today you get the first 10 levels in a half hour.

    Hopefully some developer will take a risk to return to some of these elements with updated functionality.

    It's true.  you have to look at today's MMOs and realize that it's not just veteran gamers being "stodgy", but that game developers are trying to increase their revenue, because surprise surprise, making games is an industry, and people gotta eat! 

    So, games are being made to cater to a broader audience, and some features are being thrown to the wayside in order to hold their interest, and sadly they take away from the complexity of the game as it COULD have been.

    Personally, I don't look at it as a "veteran gamer vs. new gamer" situation, but as a "game developer underestimates their audience" situation, or potentially a "the executives are pushing us to scrap some of the more complex features because they are holding up development" situation.  SW:TOR is a prime example.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    Really I could do without voiceovers for every character. The youngsters today need more reading practice anyway. Voiceovers technology in video games today I think are a big reason why so many people are crappy at reading.

    That is irrelevant for video games. Video games are ENTERTAINMENT products, not education aid to help youngsters to learn to read. Plus, many gamers are adults (for example, a majority of WOW players are over 21). There is no reason to force people to read in an ENTERTAINMENT product.

    Are you going to suggest going back to silent movie and we should READ the dialogue next?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

     

    More work goes into removing the complexity to make new games simpler for the end user, and to make the game look prettier..

    So? Simpler is not necessarily bad.

    Chess is MUCH simplier than WOW (less rules, fewer pieces, less complex game board). Does that make chess worthless?

    And prettier is of course good. We are talking about VIDEO games, not TEXT games.

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm



    Really I could do without voiceovers for every character. The youngsters today need more reading practice anyway. Voiceovers technology in video games today I think are a big reason why so many people are crappy at reading.

    That is irrelevant for video games. Video games are ENTERTAINMENT products, not education aid to help youngsters to learn to read. Plus, many gamers are adults (for example, a majority of WOW players are over 21). There is no reason to force people to read in an ENTERTAINMENT product.

    Are you going to suggest going back to silent movie and we should READ the dialogue next?

    I wasn't trying to say that games should be educational, simply that they were more educational before voiceovers came along.

    Part of the problem, still, is laziness. Your reaction to the thought of a little bit of reading is really saddening. Dont forget, books have always been, and still are, an entertainment product as well.

    Also, a product doesn't need to be made with education in mind for its patrons to learn something from it. Far more kids are playing far more video games these days than when I was coming around, and what they're learning from them today is far different as well, intentional or not. So the next time you or someone you know complains about "idiot kids" dropping F-bombs and racial slurs in voice chat, misspelling and mispronouncing every other word they say/type, and just being all-around less intelligent than desired, have a good think about where they might get that from.

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


     

    More work goes into removing the complexity to make new games simpler for the end user, and to make the game look prettier..

    So? Simpler is not necessarily bad.

    Chess is MUCH simplier than WOW (less rules, fewer pieces, less complex game board). Does that make chess worthless?

    And prettier is of course good. We are talking about VIDEO games, not TEXT games.

    And while we're on the subject of lack of reading, if you'd read the post I replied to, the point in question was whether or not newer games are  more complex than older games, not whether simple is good or bad. I was making a point that newer games are contrarily much simpler than those that came before.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

     

    I wasn't trying to say that games should be educational, simply that they were more educational before voiceovers came along.

    Part of the problem, still, is laziness. Your reaction to the thought of a little bit of reading is really saddening. Dont forget, books have always been, and still are, an entertainment product as well.

    Also, a product doesn't need to be made with education in mind for its patrons to learn something from it. Far more kids are playing far more video games these days than when I was coming around, and what they're learning from them today is far different as well, intentional or not. So the next time you or someone you know complains about "idiot kids" dropping F-bombs and racial slurs in voice chat, misspelling and mispronouncing every other word they say/type, and just being all-around less intelligent than desired, have a good think about where they might get that from.

    I read novels (more precisely sci-fi & myster novels) for fun too. But still, text is NOT a optimal medium in VIDEO games. It break the pace of the game. It feels out of place. Plus, VO is 100x more immensive than text (and i thought u guys like immension).

    I don't want to read dialogue in a movie. I don't want to read quest text in a game. I *will* read books for fun. Those are totally different medium, and the enjoyment is different.

    Lastly, while one *can* learn from an entertainment product, the focus should ALWAYS be on entertaining and fun. If it happens to have some value in education as a SIDE EFFECT, that is ok. But sacrificing even a bit of fun for it .. is bad design.

    And while we're on the subject of lack of reading, if you'd read the post I replied to, the point in question was whether or not newer games are  more complex than older games, not whether simple is good or bad. I was making a point that newer games are contrarily much simpler than those that came before.

    Certainly NOT true. Just compare EQ mage combat mechanics (at least till Kunark while i was playing) to WOW mage combat mecahnics. There is no CDs, no procs, no rotation, no mana management (like arcane mage), and only DD. Just on the DPS mechanics side, WOW is 10x mroe complex.

    Resource is another example. How many type of resources are used in EQ? How many are used in WOW (each with its own mechanics).

     

     

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

     

    I wasn't trying to say that games should be educational, simply that they were more educational before voiceovers came along.

    Part of the problem, still, is laziness. Your reaction to the thought of a little bit of reading is really saddening. Dont forget, books have always been, and still are, an entertainment product as well.

    Also, a product doesn't need to be made with education in mind for its patrons to learn something from it. Far more kids are playing far more video games these days than when I was coming around, and what they're learning from them today is far different as well, intentional or not. So the next time you or someone you know complains about "idiot kids" dropping F-bombs and racial slurs in voice chat, misspelling and mispronouncing every other word they say/type, and just being all-around less intelligent than desired, have a good think about where they might get that from.

    I read novels (more precisely sci-fi & myster novels) for fun too. But still, text is NOT a optimal medium in VIDEO games. It break the pace of the game. It feels out of place. Plus, VO is 100x more immensive than text (and i thought u guys like immension).

    I don't want to read dialogue in a movie. I don't want to read quest text in a game. I *will* read books for fun. Those are totally different medium, and the enjoyment is different.

    Lastly, while one *can* learn from an entertainment product, the focus should ALWAYS be on entertaining and fun. If it happens to have some value in education as a SIDE EFFECT, that is ok. But sacrificing even a bit of fun for it .. is bad design.

    And while we're on the subject of lack of reading, if you'd read the post I replied to, the point in question was whether or not newer games are  more complex than older games, not whether simple is good or bad. I was making a point that newer games are contrarily much simpler than those that came before.

    Certainly NOT true. Just compare EQ mage combat mechanics (at least till Kunark while i was playing) to WOW mage combat mecahnics. There is no CDs, no procs, no rotation, no mana management (like arcane mage), and only DD. Just on the DPS mechanics side, WOW is 10x mroe complex.

    Resource is another example. How many type of resources are used in EQ? How many are used in WOW (each with its own mechanics).

     

     

    Well said. While Nariusseldon seems far too invested in the status quo, I would take that any day over the majority of the vocal posters here who are so invested in the backass quo that they have no frame of reference to even validly critique a game any more.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Sythion

     

     

    Well said. While Nariusseldon seems far too invested in the status quo, I would take that any day over the majority of the vocal posters here who are so invested in the backass quo that they have no frame of reference to even validly critique a game any more.

    Actually i am always looking for new games to play. I am pretty sure in another 2 weeks, my main game will be D3 instead of WoW.

    Granted i don't like those VW non-games, but that does not mean i don't want new games.

    BTW, i just started DCUO for a week or so and it has been great. Good action combat, cool costume customization, nice instanced quests (with DC heroes showing up to help!), and nice little touches like quest to tour gotham city. A pretty good GAME, IMHO.

  • OberanMiMOberanMiM Chicago, ILPosts: 236Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

     

    I wasn't trying to say that games should be educational, simply that they were more educational before voiceovers came along.

    Part of the problem, still, is laziness. Your reaction to the thought of a little bit of reading is really saddening. Dont forget, books have always been, and still are, an entertainment product as well.

    Also, a product doesn't need to be made with education in mind for its patrons to learn something from it. Far more kids are playing far more video games these days than when I was coming around, and what they're learning from them today is far different as well, intentional or not. So the next time you or someone you know complains about "idiot kids" dropping F-bombs and racial slurs in voice chat, misspelling and mispronouncing every other word they say/type, and just being all-around less intelligent than desired, have a good think about where they might get that from.

    I read novels (more precisely sci-fi & myster novels) for fun too. But still, text is NOT a optimal medium in VIDEO games. It break the pace of the game. It feels out of place. Plus, VO is 100x more immensive than text (and i thought u guys like immension).

    I don't want to read dialogue in a movie. I don't want to read quest text in a game. I *will* read books for fun. Those are totally different medium, and the enjoyment is different.

    Lastly, while one *can* learn from an entertainment product, the focus should ALWAYS be on entertaining and fun. If it happens to have some value in education as a SIDE EFFECT, that is ok. But sacrificing even a bit of fun for it .. is bad design.

    And while we're on the subject of lack of reading, if you'd read the post I replied to, the point in question was whether or not newer games are  more complex than older games, not whether simple is good or bad. I was making a point that newer games are contrarily much simpler than those that came before.

    Certainly NOT true. Just compare EQ mage combat mechanics (at least till Kunark while i was playing) to WOW mage combat mecahnics. There is no CDs, no procs, no rotation, no mana management (like arcane mage), and only DD. Just on the DPS mechanics side, WOW is 10x mroe complex.

    Resource is another example. How many type of resources are used in EQ? How many are used in WOW (each with its own mechanics).

     

     

     

    Wow did you even play EQ? EQ mages were a pet class, not a primary ranged dd spell class. You had to chose the type of pet appropriate for the encounter (earth pets were more tankish for instance). You had to summon items to equip the pet (many of them had procs) You had to learn how control your dd spells so that you didn't pull aggro from your pet or you would get attacked.

    In a raid you were not only responsible for doing dd, you also had to summon various items like modulation rods to help convert the users hp to mana.

    Compare that to WoW mage who is basically more like the EQ wizard (and even the EQ wizard had to adjust what spells they used because certain mobs were more vulnerable to certain types of spells)

    And i laugh at your perposterous notion that you didn't have to manage mana as caster in EQ. Without potions you had to manage your mana FAR more carefully than you ever did in WoW.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Certainly NOT true. Just compare EQ mage combat mechanics (at least till Kunark while i was playing) to WOW mage combat mecahnics. There is no CDs, no procs, no rotation, no mana management (like arcane mage), and only DD. Just on the DPS mechanics side, WOW is 10x mroe complex.

    Resource is another example. How many type of resources are used in EQ? How many are used in WOW (each with its own mechanics).

     

     

    Yes and no, yes because there are certainly more skills and mechanics involved, especially in combat, no because their IMPACT is rather small (especially in crafting) , most of the time you just need to mindlessly mash your memorized primary rotation (or craft the latest thing in your list) and have some situational awareness, and you end up performing at 80-90% of your maximum possible output, which is sufficient for everything besides some hardmodes, compared to older systems, where you would either die or do no output.

    In a way it is like saying this particular white wall is more complex just because you painted it with a 1 inch brush instead of a roller.

    Side note on the arcane mage, the ab stacking and so on is a nice mechanic, but unfortunately within the game system it is nothing more than pacing yourself, because even "burn phases" are few and their impact is small and you have actually no way of capitalizing on the possibility of increased damage output due to very strict mana input restrictions (no more potion spamming, for example) in pve and the overall fragility of the arcane mage in pvp (paranoia doesnt help either, there were times when i casted slow on someone and in 2 seconds i had three pets and a rogue on me, regularly).

    Flame on!

    :)

     

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    I read novels (more precisely sci-fi & myster novels) for fun too. But still, text is NOT a optimal medium in VIDEO games. It break the pace of the game. It feels out of place. Plus, VO is 100x more immensive than text (and i thought u guys like immension).

    I don't want to read dialogue in a movie. I don't want to read quest text in a game. I *will* read books for fun. Those are totally different medium, and the enjoyment is different.

    Lastly, while one *can* learn from an entertainment product, the focus should ALWAYS be on entertaining and fun. If it happens to have some value in education as a SIDE EFFECT, that is ok. But sacrificing even a bit of fun for it .. is bad design.

    Don't get me wrong, every once in a while I like to fire up Saints Row 3 and just go on a mindless bloody murderous rampage. I'll even admit to bleating out the occasional maniacal cackle while I'm at it. But text is no less valid in a video game than voice overs. It largely depends on the genre of the game. RPGs, and other story-heavy games, lend themselves well to text.

    Even in some other cases, I would even go so far as to say text is preferable to voice overs. Take The Legend of Zelda for example. I whole-heartedly believe if Nintendo ever added full voiceovers to it, it would ruin the series from an aesthetic point of view.

    In the end, though, I still think its a shame that some people treat reading like leprosy. I really think its a sign of the falling literacy rate in North America.

    As always, though, just because you dislike something you instantly label it as "bad design" and not "optimal". You're totally entitled to your preferences, but you really have this problem with believing everything that doesn't fall under your preferece is somehow systematically wrong.

  • VocadiVocadi SH, MIPosts: 205Member

    Text vs cut scenes in a game are merely a matter of preference. For some it adds to the immersion, for others it ruins it.  I don't think the addition of cut scenes in itself kills the genre, more its the simplifiying of content overall. The dumbing down of skills and the fact that developers seem to be removing player choices under the guise of streamlining content.

    My 15 year old nephew plays all sorts of video games like a fiend. He also reads at least a book a week and is working on developing a game using excel.. (don't ask me how I have no idea.)  But my point is, kids will advance and learn regardless of medium.  

     

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  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Yes and no, yes because there are certainly more skills and mechanics involved, especially in combat, no because their IMPACT is rather small (especially in crafting) , most of the time you just need to mindlessly mash your memorized primary rotation (or craft the latest thing in your list) and have some situational awareness, and you end up performing at 80-90% of your maximum possible output, which is sufficient for everything besides some hardmodes, compared to older systems, where you would either die or do no output.

    While I don't actually agree with it, I accept this point of view as entirely valid.

    However, the point still stands that there is more work going into today's gameplay mechanics than ever was in the past. This is not a situation of developers being lazy, either from a design or content perspective, and they are not simply leaving things out and dumbing down games.

    They are just intentionally making games in a way you don't like, which is a lot different than just being lazy and stealing children's money.

     

     


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    In the end, though, I still think its a shame that some people treat reading like leprosy. I really think its a sign of the falling literacy rate in North America.

    As much of a shame as you think it is, claiming that you can only appreciate a game style because others are too stupid usually speaks to elitism more than realism.

     

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