P2W is fine for the game makers, its the customers that get screwed by it......I'd imagine alot of the f2p games that have used it have made alot of money from it.......Praying upon the players that "just have to be first, the best, the strongest, etc is a good way to make money....ITs not just cash shops but also pay for beta access, early launch, etc is also a form of p2w that most people dont consider......Many of these people that are crying about cash shop p2w are the same ones that are buying early access so their characters can get a 2-3 day head start......
There is no place for any P2W games on my computers HD at least. Others can do what they want. But I refuse to play games like that or support that business model in any way. My fair play and level playing field principles would prevent me from even thinking about it.
There's a place for p2w....for teh people that want to play that kind of game. And they can stick to the skadillion crappy Adian grinders out there that cater to them, and stay out of the games I like.
What I HATE is games that bill themselves as not being p2w, but turn out to be just that. APB...looking at you.
they all got it wrong. wow was the last bastion of hope. i feel like they tried to get it right and failed but we all bought it and they've all since become lethargic. Entropia is the worst pay to play game ever.
to me the next best attempt was company of heroes which failed before the lead designer unfortunatley died.
these copycat browser games in the grind model suck so bad it seems hopeless.
Another massive cash grab is MTGO
It s our fault really for playing and paying for inferior products
I really have to wonder why it's acceptable to spend hundreds of hours in a game - to get the best gear/buffs/etc - and that be considered OK, while others who spend hundreds of dollars in a game to get the best gear/buffs/etc are looked down upon?
Up until the late 90's - ALL games were effectively pay to win - and during those times of vastly smaller populations and far more robust communities - most of us never looked down upon those who could spend more money - and thus more time.
What's changed, and why?
While I don't look down on people who bought their way to power, I can explain why it is ok for people to spend time to get their equips: because we have accepted that you gain stuff inside the game by playing it. It has been that way at least since NES was released.
I don't like the pay to win system, because A. I cannot buy myself advantages without personally feeling like I've undermined my achievements since money is not an issue for me and B. it automatically makes me ask myself: should I spend 10 hours inside the game or just 1 hour of real work (random numbers, just pointing out the large difference in effort).
I really have to wonder why it's acceptable to spend hundreds of hours in a game - to get the best gear/buffs/etc - and that be considered OK, while others who spend hundreds of dollars in a game to get the best gear/buffs/etc are looked down upon?
Up until the late 90's - ALL games were effectively pay to win - and during those times of vastly smaller populations and far more robust communities - most of us never looked down upon those who could spend more money - and thus more time.
What's changed, and why?
pretty sure people who spend 100s of hours are looked down on too
is there a place where people stop complaining about how other people want to go about there lives? apparently not.
good article. maybe it'll make one of the anti-f2p troll brigade think for the first time in their lives. maybe i'll wake up able to spit rainbows tomorrow.
is there a place where people stop complaining about how other people want to go about there lives? apparently not.
good article. maybe it'll make one of the anti-f2p troll brigade think for the first time in their lives. maybe i'll wake up able to spit rainbows tomorrow.
Not as long as what an individual does affects the rest, which clearly happens in MMORPGs.
I don't want to burst your bubble, but it's just not the way the world works. You have games that are full cash shop get your advantage here games from the standard devs. It's who they are, it's what they do, there is no surprise you get what you get and you know it when you play. In these games, you have those who pay and those who don't. And frankly, in the eyes of those who pay and the developers, those who don't pay ARE the content for the paying customer. That's how it is and that's how it should be. WTF do you want for free? Why the hell should you be able to log into a game that someone else makes happen so that you can have a fair game? You want someone else to pay for the cake and you expect the same size slice? Hehe.
GW2 will be in it's own class. Boxed fee, no sub, cash shop. Don't think it's been done by anyone else as of yet. TBH I am a bit concerned. They say nothing "evil" but that's not a very descriptive definitiion and we all would describe it differently. They Mike O also used the term "Unfair advantage" not "advantage", but "Unfair Advantage" So what 's a "fair advantage"? Again, not a good definition and very subjective.
There are games that had/have/still want subs but also have a free trial. They have to be very careful how they generate revenue since they still want subs. So they basically give you what amounts to a limited-extended "free" trial of the game.
Then you have the total non P2W/Non-cash shop/Non-RMT games that charge a sub. Only 1 to 2 years ago, anything other than this was Taboo.....That is until a certian new game comming out announced a cash shop. And the more info about it we got, the more acceptable cash shops became.
Which brings me to the double and tripple dippers. Yeah FunCom, I'm looking at you with your AAA sub fees and P2W cash shops in the same game. LOL...Fail. Hybrid games suck IMO, the only P2W there is for the developers. Or people with lots of money.
We pay Subs for Equal Opprotunity and to throw a cash shop in there while charging a sub is outrageous and I'll never play a game like that again.
Funny thing is, I'd even consider an all out P2W game if 15-20 a month would give me loads of fun playing it. Just not sure of any.
As the industry looks contentedly upon their successful promotion of the pure profit cash shop model to the gullible guy that actually believes the shilling hogwash and thinks it's being done to actually benefit them...
Desensitisation is complete . Part 2 of the plan is initiated.
Start moving Project 'Pay to Win is OK' forward.
Start slowly though, let the build up be gradual. We don't want those frogs jumping out of the water.
Activate the alt accounts and creative marketers and send them in.
Is there a place for it. Sure as long as there are customers willing to pay for it.
The thing for me is though, nothing in a game is real so pretty much everything in game is a trophy for what each person has done. When you can simply buy something, it devalues what people work for... cosmetic, vanity, or actual strength the difference to me is pretty meaningless, because in online games one is just as important as the other they all symbolize effort put forth by the player. When the only meaning items hold in the game is $ paid for, then we are stuck with a bunch of pixels that don't really stand for anything but who has the fattest wallet. I am not particularly interested in the game of who has the fattest wallet so it would be a no go for me.
It is understandable that some people want to be able to just jump right in and do the things that somebody playing for years can do, but it seems like a very shallow experience to me. If the game was filled with like minded players though, in and of itself is not a big issue if everybody is having fun.
Since I don't play PvP I don't care what advantages other players can get. I've met clueless players who were powerleveled long before cash shops were standard fare, and frankly someone who bought gear is more helpful in a party than that. Some people will always take shortcuts, and I have no problem with these being offered by the developers. As long as I'm not severely crippled by not paying I have no problem playing such a game.
probably there is a place for it, though not for me personally. For the same reasons I would never use a GodMode code (do those still exist? ). I never understood the fun of doing that?! Some people seem to WANT a game to end as fast as possible.
As the industry looks contentedly upon their successful promotion of the pure profit cash shop model to the gullible guy that actually believes the shilling hogwash and thinks it's being done to actually benefit them...
"Desensitisation is complete . Part 2 of the plan is initiated.
Start moving Project 'Pay to Win is OK' forward.
Start slowly though, let the build up be gradual. We don't want those frogs jumping out of the water.
Activate the paid opinion formers and 'creative marketers' and their multiple alt accounts and send them in."
This is the truth.
Remember the time when all MMO devs were ethically against what we are seeing now? When the integrity of the game itself was on equal footing with the profit line and games companies were extremely vocal about how bad RMT was for us and their creation both?
I miss those times.
I hate this gradual movement we are seeing, moving MMOs out of the 'games' categroy and more and more into the much broader and much vaguer 'entertainment product' category. Most don't see it, but the shift is actually profound.
I think players have gotten the meaning of success!! For some reason your all thinking the success of the game is based of the developing companies profit on the game hahahahahaha why why why !!! Surely the success of a product is based off the continued satisfaction of its first and potential customers!!! After all! Once every one that is going to try said types of games become bored anmd sick to death with the capitalisation on games revenue there will simply be a huge decline in said games player base effectively ending the game... It is for a face why game such as eve, swg , and other subscription based games seem to last an awefully long time and always seem to be far better waulity much fairer and genrally more entertaining !!! So I ask again!!! Why do players judge a games succes by the amount of cash the developing company makes !!! Its not like your getting any of that money!!
If people judged success correctly games developers wouldn't be ab le to get away with games like swtor, lotro, or even sto !! In short- half hearted money spinning short term ventures! And your all kidding your selves if you think swtor will last another 4 years let alone its predicted 25 year plan lol I suggest you all wake up and smell the roses and start trying to fixc mmo games rather than defending them and endorsing them!!
I am just amazed that every discussion, article or debate about so-called free to play games always gravites towards what players PAY. If the games in question were truly F2P, wouldn't it mean that players/developers/press would be talking about all the things you can do for free? Instead the arguement is couched in terms like "small payments" or "packages" that all cost real money. Where oh where dose that "free" come in again? Free to play is a scam.....wake up.
Comments
Seriously don't evenknow where to begin.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Its pay to win, once the free to play games came to North America...
I retired retroactively..Haha
It was "pay to win" long before there even was such a thing as a 'korean' grinder
P2W is fine for the game makers, its the customers that get screwed by it......I'd imagine alot of the f2p games that have used it have made alot of money from it.......Praying upon the players that "just have to be first, the best, the strongest, etc is a good way to make money....ITs not just cash shops but also pay for beta access, early launch, etc is also a form of p2w that most people dont consider......Many of these people that are crying about cash shop p2w are the same ones that are buying early access so their characters can get a 2-3 day head start......
No, there is NEVER a "place" for Pay-To-Win. We play video games to get away from RealWorld imbalances because of money, actions, etc.
Pay-To-Win will always be frowned upon, sorry.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
There is no place for any P2W games on my computers HD at least. Others can do what they want. But I refuse to play games like that or support that business model in any way. My fair play and level playing field principles would prevent me from even thinking about it.
Reality is Pay 2 Win.
Thats enough of that.
There's a place for p2w....for teh people that want to play that kind of game. And they can stick to the skadillion crappy Adian grinders out there that cater to them, and stay out of the games I like.
What I HATE is games that bill themselves as not being p2w, but turn out to be just that. APB...looking at you.
they all got it wrong. wow was the last bastion of hope. i feel like they tried to get it right and failed but we all bought it and they've all since become lethargic. Entropia is the worst pay to play game ever.
to me the next best attempt was company of heroes which failed before the lead designer unfortunatley died.
these copycat browser games in the grind model suck so bad it seems hopeless.
Another massive cash grab is MTGO
It s our fault really for playing and paying for inferior products
While I don't look down on people who bought their way to power, I can explain why it is ok for people to spend time to get their equips: because we have accepted that you gain stuff inside the game by playing it. It has been that way at least since NES was released.
I don't like the pay to win system, because A. I cannot buy myself advantages without personally feeling like I've undermined my achievements since money is not an issue for me and B. it automatically makes me ask myself: should I spend 10 hours inside the game or just 1 hour of real work (random numbers, just pointing out the large difference in effort).
pretty sure people who spend 100s of hours are looked down on too
is there a place where people stop complaining about how other people want to go about there lives? apparently not.
good article. maybe it'll make one of the anti-f2p troll brigade think for the first time in their lives. maybe i'll wake up able to spit rainbows tomorrow.
Not as long as what an individual does affects the rest, which clearly happens in MMORPGs.
I don't want to burst your bubble, but it's just not the way the world works. You have games that are full cash shop get your advantage here games from the standard devs. It's who they are, it's what they do, there is no surprise you get what you get and you know it when you play. In these games, you have those who pay and those who don't. And frankly, in the eyes of those who pay and the developers, those who don't pay ARE the content for the paying customer. That's how it is and that's how it should be. WTF do you want for free? Why the hell should you be able to log into a game that someone else makes happen so that you can have a fair game? You want someone else to pay for the cake and you expect the same size slice? Hehe.
GW2 will be in it's own class. Boxed fee, no sub, cash shop. Don't think it's been done by anyone else as of yet. TBH I am a bit concerned. They say nothing "evil" but that's not a very descriptive definitiion and we all would describe it differently. They Mike O also used the term "Unfair advantage" not "advantage", but "Unfair Advantage" So what 's a "fair advantage"? Again, not a good definition and very subjective.
There are games that had/have/still want subs but also have a free trial. They have to be very careful how they generate revenue since they still want subs. So they basically give you what amounts to a limited-extended "free" trial of the game.
Then you have the total non P2W/Non-cash shop/Non-RMT games that charge a sub. Only 1 to 2 years ago, anything other than this was Taboo.....That is until a certian new game comming out announced a cash shop. And the more info about it we got, the more acceptable cash shops became.
Which brings me to the double and tripple dippers. Yeah FunCom, I'm looking at you with your AAA sub fees and P2W cash shops in the same game. LOL...Fail. Hybrid games suck IMO, the only P2W there is for the developers. Or people with lots of money.
We pay Subs for Equal Opprotunity and to throw a cash shop in there while charging a sub is outrageous and I'll never play a game like that again.
Funny thing is, I'd even consider an all out P2W game if 15-20 a month would give me loads of fun playing it. Just not sure of any.
/agree
I'd buy that for a dollar.
Brrrflp!
Is there a place for it. Sure as long as there are customers willing to pay for it.
The thing for me is though, nothing in a game is real so pretty much everything in game is a trophy for what each person has done. When you can simply buy something, it devalues what people work for... cosmetic, vanity, or actual strength the difference to me is pretty meaningless, because in online games one is just as important as the other they all symbolize effort put forth by the player. When the only meaning items hold in the game is $ paid for, then we are stuck with a bunch of pixels that don't really stand for anything but who has the fattest wallet. I am not particularly interested in the game of who has the fattest wallet so it would be a no go for me.
It is understandable that some people want to be able to just jump right in and do the things that somebody playing for years can do, but it seems like a very shallow experience to me. If the game was filled with like minded players though, in and of itself is not a big issue if everybody is having fun.
No.
/locked
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Since I don't play PvP I don't care what advantages other players can get. I've met clueless players who were powerleveled long before cash shops were standard fare, and frankly someone who bought gear is more helpful in a party than that. Some people will always take shortcuts, and I have no problem with these being offered by the developers. As long as I'm not severely crippled by not paying I have no problem playing such a game.
probably there is a place for it, though not for me personally. For the same reasons I would never use a GodMode code (do those still exist?
). I never understood the fun of doing that?! Some people seem to WANT a game to end as fast as possible. 
the poster formerly known as melangel :P
+1
After years of Pay to Grind, it is very cheering there are some alternatives.
More choices, the better.
Remember the time when all MMO devs were ethically against what we are seeing now? When the integrity of the game itself was on equal footing with the profit line and games companies were extremely vocal about how bad RMT was for us and their creation both?
I miss those times.
I hate this gradual movement we are seeing, moving MMOs out of the 'games' categroy and more and more into the much broader and much vaguer 'entertainment product' category. Most don't see it, but the shift is actually profound.
If people judged success correctly games developers wouldn't be ab le to get away with games like swtor, lotro, or even sto !! In short- half hearted money spinning short term ventures! And your all kidding your selves if you think swtor will last another 4 years let alone its predicted 25 year plan lol I suggest you all wake up and smell the roses and start trying to fixc mmo games rather than defending them and endorsing them!!
I am just amazed that every discussion, article or debate about so-called free to play games always gravites towards what players PAY. If the games in question were truly F2P, wouldn't it mean that players/developers/press would be talking about all the things you can do for free? Instead the arguement is couched in terms like "small payments" or "packages" that all cost real money. Where oh where dose that "free" come in again? Free to play is a scam.....wake up.
Let's party like it is 1863!