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How would the way EvE handles its world, translate into a 3D fantasy themed MMO
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,387
How would the way EvE handles its world, translate into a 3D fantasy themed MMO?
EvE world is huge space. But can something like this be pulled off with fantasy theme on the ground and fully 3D like World of Warcraft?
EvE world is huge space. But can something like this be pulled off with fantasy theme on the ground and fully 3D like World of Warcraft?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
There is several world builder softwares that is designed for making really huge worlds.
i can give you two links.
Grome.
http://www.quadsoftware.com/
VWorld
http://www.vworld.fr/
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Would probably be similar to Mortal Online/SWG...it would certainly need to be big if it allows castle building or territory control.
They (CCP) are making one already. World of Darkness Online. Not Fantasy with elves and dwarves, it's modern with Vampires.
the poster formerly known as melangel :P
one key concept and success-factor of EVE is, that the huge space is divided into 2 areas: the mostly safe and huge Empire and the even larger PvP-space. this allows PvE-players to play the game their way and channels new PvP-players into the PvP-guilds, because they can just test the open PvP without a big risk. and you would be astonished, how many people like it finally. at least from time to time.
looking to a planet-based fantasy theme, you would need 1 continent as big as usually an entire game packed with developer created content, in order to keep all the PvE players happy and safe. of course its a sandbox with a player driven economy which rules everything. so also the quest-system has to be adjusted in order to work within a sandbox correctly (loot drops & rewards are different). on the PvE continent you could also find arenas and battlegrounds for pvp-esports, which is also just a theme, or tool in a sandbox.
in the even larger PvP-space, which could be a combination of additional continents / islands, you dont need many developer created content. all what you need is landscape, a bit of fauna and flora and a lot of ressources to mine / gather. this is mainly to keep the economy running. so creating this huge pvp-space should be less effort per squaremile than the theme-packed PvE space. a lot of this waste PvP-space could be done with good generators. the players will change their world anyways soon.
now the players start to change this PvP-space with terraforming and buildings & cities, ships, streets, agriculture, forestry ... and more. you could even introduce biogenetics as a crafting profession in order to allow players to develop new animal and plant races, within limitations. in a fantasy theme you would call it breeding.
this is all a PvP player needs: making money with the given ressources, changing his world persistently and fighting about ressources via conquering more territory and defend it. the core of the succesful EVE-model is pretty simple.
of course the devs could place dynamic events all over the place. i would prefer this over quests in the PvE-space and also in the PvP-area it would help, if NPCs would start invasions and building their own territory driven by high AI.
this is what i call an AAA-sandbox. i doubt, we will see it anytime soon. World of Darkness, ArchAge ...? we will see ....
coming back to the OPs initial question: yes, i guess huge landscapes could be done via generators roughly. just give the players great tools to change the world and the world will look pretty nice and different very soon.
PS: i doubt the 1 server concept of EVE would work technically in a planet based game with all the structures around. but the worlds would be huge. and perhaps even a gigantic 1 one-server-world could be possible with a genious software-architecture.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
There would be a lot more objects to draw on screen when there's terrain involved - something Eve lacks. Usually its just the ships and a pretty skybox.
Also I don't think people would accept the same type of detached movement and controls of Eve. Players are used to having direct control of their characters and that means more client-server traffic. Can you imagine similar combat in a Fantasy game? Using /follow command to stay with the group and pressing F1 to activate auto attack on called targets... Yeah, doesn't sound good to me either.
I'd Imagine cities would have to work much the same way as stations do in Eve. And that would be a big turn-off for players that are use to seeing their fellow players too. How would area transition even work? -Gates?
Eve-like huge battles and high player concetrations in a fantasy MMO? -Highly unlikely.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
CCP's WoDO is being made on a single shard. Just like CCP's EVE. They have used the EVE engine, modified I believe somewhat and instead of planets there will be cities. The character engine itself is impressive. I think, if done right it has the potential to be a really amazing game with sandbox/themepark elements intermixed. PvP with politics, one huge player world
Learn to love vampires.
the poster formerly known as melangel :P
I am reminded of AC, and DAOC, which my brother played. I did not have the money or time to play MMO's in those days. But, what I remembered watching him were large open worlds. It would appear to me that the one-open world idea was out there for quite a while.
The graphics were not as good, even for the standards back in those days, but there was a deeper sense back then for the online games. With todays standards I would see major technological advancement in the area before we start seeing compainies go for this again. After that, we would have to see the company go for the nitche crowd. Right now, money and trending are speaking for themselves, people are still buying the current model. Once this trend stops or that the developers realize that they are in a super-staturated the chance we start seeing more of this increases.
as far as i did understand the OP, he asks, if a huge world like EVE is possible in a fantasy / planet-based game. the idea was not to transfer the gamemechanic from the EVE-space to a fantasy setting. this does not make any sense at all, and there is no need to do so.
a stargate is a teleporter in a fantasy-setting. a player owned structure is perhaps an outpost or a fort and a station is a city. a zone might match perhaps to a constellation in EVE. so this world becomes huge! but the way things do work on a planet are fully different, than how they do in space. this is the truth in RL as it is neccessary in a virtual world.
and regarding fights of hundreds vs hundreds: this can work. of course 2000 vs 2000 like i saw in EVE most propably not. actually it did not work in EVE as well. at least our battles in 2008 did not run very well. but this is a question of rulesets, which limit the number of players even in open pvp. there are opportunities to do so. perhaps even a technology.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
Asheron's Call would be one example of how that is currently done.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I fully agree that is a key concept of the PVE->PVP gaming in EVE, but... I wouldn't fully isolate the PVP grounds from the PVE "continent". I'd make it so that the PVE (relatively safe) zones would be interspersed with the low-sec zones and the 0.0 zones. So, as in EVE, when you were going to some other zone, you'd sometimes have to make the decision to either:
a) pass through a dangerous low-sec zone, or;
b) take a really long detour to "safely" get to your destination.
To the effect that sometimes you might need hired escorts, perhaps.
This might actually be even more fun in a 3D fantasy MMO world than it is in EVE.
could be done by a clever zone design. some zones are safe, because the guards (Concorde) are watching you, others are not.
another key-aspect of EVEs player driven economy are regional warehouses. this means you really have to transport goods from point A to B. some people are specialized in doing so. this creates a new role beside the pure crafter: the crarrier or hauler. and the game supports it via a tool for transportation contracts. if you have to cross pvp-zones, you need another role: mercenaries in order to secure your caravan. also a pure trader makes now a lot of sense. without global auction houses you can make your profit out of the different regional prices. in a theme-park there are no traders usually. this is just dumb brokerage based on a global auction house.
even in PVE-zones i could imagine danger for the goods. just let pop-up dynamic-events with robberish strong NPCs near the main trade routes. and if traders like to avoid roads and go thru the wilderness, things become even worse.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
You totally missed his point. He is referring to the size of player concentrations and how the fighting system creates less drain on the system thus allowing larger fights.
i guess i did not. the question was, how thousands of avatars like in WOW can work in one zone without lag. but this does not mean, that you transfer EVEs movement-mechanics, combat-mechanics or stargates to a fantasy game. there are fantasy games out there supporting mass-pvp already.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
I have often wondered this myself, since I love the design setting of EVE, but hate the theme.
However in reality, you cannot have complete sandbox MMO within a fantasy setting, since that would require the ability to tear down mountains.
Now my preference would be something like a sandpark, designinged like EVE and DAoC. This includes the designated PvE and PvP areas, very deep crafting, player driven economy and focus on PvP with no factions.
This could be done in various ways, but in my mind it should structured something like this. This just comes off the top of my head.
A huge open world with different capitals. Areas around capitals are "safe" zones and controlled by AI gaurds, almost unkillable which is the themepark. When moving out into the sandbox, you would still have different zones with different themes, jungles, forrest, deserts and mountains. In these zones, there are certain control points at which you can build a keep. You should be able to create look-out camps and towers, to spot intruders, hire NPC guards etc to occupy these. Now the reason, why you would be intrested in holding these keeps, should be income from mines, factories, workshops and likewise, that should help you add to your power. And you should be able to control more than one area. However you should not be able to teraform like minecraft.
There should also, be PvE content in the PvP area, where you would fight huge bosses drops things used in crafting, dragon scales, tooths or something like it. So controlling a certain area, makes you better able to farm thoses mobs. PvE content should be alot more like EQ and DAoC, where it took time and effort to bring down a mob. There should be group oriented classes and solo-classes.
The crafting part, here it should be innovative - I dont have an idea of making it, but it should just be collect this, click this button wait 10sec and done. Also, I think that some labour system should be applied. So that all players have a labour bar, that will drain from crafting and slowly regen over time - it can be replenished by "hiring NPC work force" or buying labour from other players. It would furthermore require, that items have a durability that will wear off, so that the crafters can keep manufactoring and sell items - this will in turn also increase the realisme.
Skill and leveling system, should be a mix between the traditional EQ and EVE. In which we have a leveling system and small trainable attributes. So that you will have actual levels and experience unlocking new skills and improve your character, but you should also increase your power by doing something over and over, like melee combat will increase by doing actual melee combat. When you go offline, you can set your character to train a certain skill, like in EVE.
Anyhow, this might seem messy, but as I stated it was off the top of my head. Tell me your opinion and ideas
why not?
in the PvP area it does not hurt. well, if you introduce static PVE-content in the pvp-zones, than you may cause conflicts. but with dynamic PVE content it may work. and you still may forbid terraforming in parts of the zones.
of course, terraforming is not a must have. but it seems to be an approach in order to build really huge worlds with generators and let the players do the fine-tuning. if not, there will not be enough money to design all the details and diversity of a great landscape. so at the end, the zones will become too small and could not hold territories for hundreds of guilds like in EVE. look at SWTORS Illum or GW2s WvW-area. way too small for territorial PvP.
i am also concernded about "safe zones around cities, where the guards patrol". if this means, a small area like in DarkFall, then this is not sufficient. you need huge safe zones, to keep the PVE players happy or buying the game at all.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
I think it may be possible with the planescape setting but you essentially need dynamically created terrain (or other stuff, Limbo and elemental planes would be somethin other than terrain per se).
Its not possible if you expect static terrain.
Eve works fine for the way Eve is set up, but I dont see it translating well to a fantasy world.