Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

Sandbox vs Themepark Discussion Thread

1679111220

Comments

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    A good game should be both themepark and sandbox. It should be possible for players to create content and perhaps also to build things. But there should also be developer created content like quests and events. But you should need to explore to find it. No questhubs and no rails!

    The virtual world must be open and big. No instances! There must be a harsh death penelty and delevelling should be possible. Corps runs should be long and naked. Travelling must be interesting and meaningful. There should be boats and other transports. Travelling from one part of the world to another should feel like a big project. It should be dangerous and take time.

    The games main focus should be exploring the virtual world. Everything you do should be related to that.

    Im sure a lot of players that only play modern themeparks would call this game a sandbox. But its not. Its a real MMORPG that can be both sandbox and themepark depending on what you want to do.

  • Heinz130Heinz130 sao pauloPosts: 227Member

    Originally posted by Camthylion

    Give me sandbox, period.

     

    The problem, companies that make sandbox MMOs are B grade, and small.  If a giant like EA would stop the cookie cutter MMO market they have going on?  Well then MAYBE we could get a well polished sandbox MMO.   I HIIGHLY enjoyed SHADOWBANE, but wolfpack back in the early 00's was a small company with low funding.  Shadowbane was forced to be rushed way to early, and it failed because of lack of funds, and lack of time to to be finished by wolfpack studios.

    Darkfall, Mortal Online, etc. etc. all of these games LIKE Shadowbane have small 1 game company owners, those games are their bread and butter.  This is the problem with sandbox games, we have allowed World of Warcraft set the standards for MMO gaming.  Its not completely our fault because WoW is a very polished, maintained, fun game.  However, WoW being as cool as it was back in the day just didn't fullfill my MMO needs.  Since the launch of WoW every company that has launched a high budget MMO has tried to copy the leading giant, but they have failed.  They failed because no one wants to move FROM Wow to ANOTHER WoW!!!!  Seriously?  Its sad that Sony, EA, and the rest of the companys that have funding want to copy off someone elses success.  It just don't work like that in the MMO world, fans are going to give up their piece of gold for a lesser copy cat clone.

     

    All that said, I am personally sick of games like WoW! I have had my fill, all these games copying its playstyle need to stop! Someone needs to step up and take the thick unwondered path.  I want something different, and as of right now the ONLY MMO I will buy in the future is Archeage.  Until it launches I will probably just pass my time on DAOC doing RVR etc. a game that was one of the first solid MMOs.... but sad a company like EA now owns it and the rights to one of the Godfather MMOs will be lost, never to surface a new and improved sequel!  And no I don't mean that PoS garb some call WAR, what a crap game...  but I have said my piece, and its how I feel, after playing MMOs since EQ1, I have given up hope for the MMO world.  I will be happy when the day comes that a mainstream MMO doesn't make my stomach turnover, and my temper raise because its a WoW cookie cutter MMO.

    True story

    But i dont think they shuld cut off themepark for time at once,some of us have kids

    Themepark is a good kids initiation for sandbox,so they will not end up likea n00b in a good sandbox forun or in game

    WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
    FH1942 best tanker for 4years
    Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
    many other for some months

  • otacuotacu BolzanoPosts: 547Member

    Simply put.

     

    I'd like to play sandbox games but i can't.

    Too much timesink.

    Sandbox games while good require too much time to be fully enjoyed. 

    And that's why they will always be a niche market.

  • LEmmopeasantLEmmopeasant Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 46Member

    Originally posted by otacu

    Simply put.

     

    I'd like to play sandbox games but i can't.

    Too much timesink.

    Sandbox games while good require too much time to be fully enjoyed. 

    And that's why they will always be a niche market.

    They don't have to be designed like that.

  • JupstoJupsto englandPosts: 2,087Member

    My ideal game is a sandbox by FAR, but I would still enjoy a themepark if its an extremely good one.

    like guildwars 2 is looking to better than pretty much all sandbox mmos!

    My blog: image

  • ChakaidoChakaido AucklandPosts: 3Member

    I agree. Who has 5 hours day to play in a sandbox design?

    What I'd love to see is better (more creative, innovatively) designed "themepark" approaches with some sandbox elements. The sandbox elements allow you could spend a bit more time on when you have it. 

    Perhaps the next generation development is customised gaming?  If there are developers out there that need assistance designing it. I'd be happy to. But I'm not a developer...just a gamer  :-)

     

  • LEmmopeasantLEmmopeasant Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 46Member

    Why are people saying you must spend long sessions playing sandbox games to get anything out of them?

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

    Why are people saying you must spend long sessions playing sandbox games to get anything out of them?

    Because there's nothing to get out of them other than interactions with other players and what you make and build.

     

    Sandbox games will get really big numbers if and only if someone finds out how to make these games instantly and constantly engaging, instead of forcing players to search desperately for something to do, or make their own fun.

    image
  • LEmmopeasantLEmmopeasant Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 46Member

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

    Why are people saying you must spend long sessions playing sandbox games to get anything out of them?

    Because there's nothing to get out of them other than interactions with other players and what you make and build.

     

    Sandbox games will get really big numbers if and only if someone finds out how to make these games instantly and constantly engaging, instead of forcing players to search desperately for something to do, or make their own fun.

    I understand what you're saying. Not all sandboxes take hours to engage. Though a lot of bad ones do. So people think it's the norm for sandboxes.

  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member
    People always say they want the sandpark. I want the themebox.

    Shadow's Hand Guild
    Open recruitment for

    The Secret World - Dragons

    Planetside 2 - Terran Republic

    Tera - Dragonfall Server

    http://www.shadowshand.com

  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    Originally posted by otacu

    Simply put.

     

    I'd like to play sandbox games but i can't.

    Too much timesink.

    Sandbox games while good require too much time to be fully enjoyed. 

    And that's why they will always be a niche market.

    In a sandbox you create your own timesinks. You really cant blame the game. Its possible to figure out a playstyle and things to do in game that means you can play in small chunks if you prefer that. The game is not designed one way or the other. It will give you the tools and you can decide what to do.

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Originally posted by otacu

    Simply put.

     

    I'd like to play sandbox games but i can't.

    Too much timesink.

    Sandbox games while good require too much time to be fully enjoyed. 

    And that's why they will always be a niche market.

    In a sandbox you create your own timesinks. You really cant blame the game. Its possible to figure out a playstyle and things to do in game that means you can play in small chunks if you prefer that. The game is not designed one way or the other. It will give you the tools and you can decide what to do.

    I disagree. Almost by definition a sandbox game needs long periods of time spent playing in order to nurture in game relationships. If you're playing for any other reason, either you aren't really playing a sandbox (no, EQ and Vanguard are not sandbox), or you are better off playing a AAA themepark game.

    image
  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by Hurvart


    Originally posted by otacu

    Simply put.

     

    I'd like to play sandbox games but i can't.

    Too much timesink.

    Sandbox games while good require too much time to be fully enjoyed. 

    And that's why they will always be a niche market.

    In a sandbox you create your own timesinks. You really cant blame the game. Its possible to figure out a playstyle and things to do in game that means you can play in small chunks if you prefer that. The game is not designed one way or the other. It will give you the tools and you can decide what to do.

    I disagree. Almost by definition a sandbox game needs long periods of time spent playing in order to nurture in game relationships. If you're playing for any other reason, either you aren't really playing a sandbox (no, EQ and Vanguard are not sandbox), or you are better off playing a AAA themepark game.



    You can be anything or anyone you want. Perhaps all I want is to be able to craft the best swords on the server. And be famous for that. I can log in and play one hour and perhaps sell a few swords. Then log in the next day and buy some materials I need for my sword crafting. I dont have to be part of a team focused on progression that depend on me and wants me to play all the time.

    Sandbox games are perfect if you want to be able to play in small chunks. You just have to find the right role that fits that preference.

    Some themeparks have raids that lasts for 5 hours. If you cant play 5 hours you can forget that raid. If you want to be good and get the absolute best gear your often forced to play alot and for several hours each session in themeparks. But a sandbox is not focused on raids or gear grinding. A big difference. You can of course play all day if you want. But there is no need. There is no linear on rails progress that force you to do that.

  • SythionSythion Salem, ORPosts: 422Member

    Originally posted by Hurvart

     Perhaps all I want is to be able to craft the best swords on the server. And be famous for that. I can log in and play one hour and perhaps sell a few swords.

    What is this game where you can play 1 hour a day and be the best crafter on your server? Must not have many players, if that's possible to do.

    image
  • HurvartHurvart ystadPosts: 565Member

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by Hurvart

     Perhaps all I want is to be able to craft the best swords on the server. And be famous for that. I can log in and play one hour and perhaps sell a few swords.

    What is this game where you can play 1 hour a day and be the best crafter on your server? Must not have many players, if that's possible to do.

    Some days you will probably have to play more. But you can play in smaller chunks. You are not forced to finish raids or events that lasts 4-5-6 hours like you are in some themeparks. I can perhaps play 6 hours/day if I play 1 hour in the morning, 3 hours in the afternoon and 2 hours before I go to bed late evening. But perhaps its not possible for me to ever play 5-6 hour sessions.  My point is that you have more freedom to plan your time and figure out and find something that works for you if you play a sandbox. Because you are not on rails and there is more freedom and more options in general.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by Hurvart

     Perhaps all I want is to be able to craft the best swords on the server. And be famous for that. I can log in and play one hour and perhaps sell a few swords.

    What is this game where you can play 1 hour a day and be the best crafter on your server? Must not have many players, if that's possible to do.

    Some days you will probably have to play more. But you can play in smaller chunks. You are not forced to finish raids or events that lasts 4-5-6 hours like you are in some themeparks. I can perhaps play 6 hours/day if I play 1 hour in the morning, 3 hours in the afternoon and 2 hours before I go to bed late evening. But perhaps its not possible for me to ever play 5-6 hour sessions.  My point is that you have more freedom to plan your time and figure out and find something that works for you if you play a sandbox. Because you are not on rails and there is more freedom and more options in general.

     I have played a number of sandboxes.  While yes you can play as little or as long as you want, EVERY activity in a sandbox requires a significant amount of time.  Playing one hour a day you will never be the best or even among the very good ones at anything in the game ever, unless the game has a skill/level cap.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • joocheesejoocheese San Antonio, TXPosts: 845Member

    Eventually (hopefully) the mmo gaming industry will turn their gaze towards sandbox gaming platforms. Maybe the mmo world is not ready for it yet, but I do hope that sometime in the future we'll have an epic sandbox mmorpg with millions and millions of players turning the tide of world pvp every day, building massive cities, and witnessing battles (world pvp) of epic proportions. (*sigh) someday!

  • LEmmopeasantLEmmopeasant Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 46Member

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by Hurvart


    Originally posted by Sythion


    Originally posted by Hurvart

     Perhaps all I want is to be able to craft the best swords on the server. And be famous for that. I can log in and play one hour and perhaps sell a few swords.

    What is this game where you can play 1 hour a day and be the best crafter on your server? Must not have many players, if that's possible to do.

    Some days you will probably have to play more. But you can play in smaller chunks. You are not forced to finish raids or events that lasts 4-5-6 hours like you are in some themeparks. I can perhaps play 6 hours/day if I play 1 hour in the morning, 3 hours in the afternoon and 2 hours before I go to bed late evening. But perhaps its not possible for me to ever play 5-6 hour sessions.  My point is that you have more freedom to plan your time and figure out and find something that works for you if you play a sandbox. Because you are not on rails and there is more freedom and more options in general.

     I have played a number of sandboxes.  While yes you can play as little or as long as you want, EVERY activity in a sandbox requires a significant amount of time.  Playing one hour a day you will never be the best or even among the very good ones at anything in the game ever, unless the game has a skill/level cap.

    Yes, someone could play sandbox one hour a day and eventually max out their craft. Once they max, they will be equal with other maxed crafters. Why is there debate over this?

    Uninterrupted session time required to progress is not dependent on themepark/sandbox. It's just game design. Either game archetype can be designed to suit long or short sessions.

    VengeSunsoar, in ANY game without a skill/level cap, you will always be overcome by someone playing 5x more hours than you.

  • LEmmopeasantLEmmopeasant Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 46Member

    Originally posted by joocheese

    Eventually (hopefully) the mmo gaming industry will turn their gaze towards sandbox gaming platforms. Maybe the mmo world is not ready for it yet, but I do hope that sometime in the future we'll have an epic sandbox mmorpg with millions and millions of players turning the tide of world pvp every day, building massive cities, and witnessing battles (world pvp) of epic proportions. (*sigh) someday!

    Things don't have to be of epic proportions to be epic. ;P

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Originally posted by Sythion

    Originally posted by Hurvart

     Perhaps all I want is to be able to craft the best swords on the server. And be famous for that. I can log in and play one hour and perhaps sell a few swords.

    What is this game where you can play 1 hour a day and be the best crafter on your server? Must not have many players, if that's possible to do.

    Some days you will probably have to play more. But you can play in smaller chunks. You are not forced to finish raids or events that lasts 4-5-6 hours like you are in some themeparks. I can perhaps play 6 hours/day if I play 1 hour in the morning, 3 hours in the afternoon and 2 hours before I go to bed late evening. But perhaps its not possible for me to ever play 5-6 hour sessions.  My point is that you have more freedom to plan your time and figure out and find something that works for you if you play a sandbox. Because you are not on rails and there is more freedom and more options in general.

     I have played a number of sandboxes.  While yes you can play as little or as long as you want, EVERY activity in a sandbox requires a significant amount of time.  Playing one hour a day you will never be the best or even among the very good ones at anything in the game ever, unless the game has a skill/level cap.

    Yes, someone could play sandbox one hour a day and eventually max out their craft. Once they max, they will be equal with other maxed crafters. Why is there debate over this?

    Uninterrupted session time required to progress is not dependent on themepark/sandbox. It's just game design. Either game archetype can be designed to suit long or short sessions.

    VengeSunsoar, in ANY game without a skill/level cap, you will always be overcome by someone playing 5x more hours than you.

     I never said you wouldn't be overcome by someone playing more hours than you in a game without a skill cap. 

    I don't have any issues with that.

    What I said was playing an hour a day will not make you the best at anything in a sandbox.  You may max out your crafting, however in sandbox games most times you have to harvest the material as well which means you need to have more skills than just crafting.  Typically the more rare an item is, the more dangerous an area it is in.  So once again you will not be the best at crafting because you cant' get the materials.

    Or if you try to buy the materials or set up a network of people to buy from you will still fall behind because all of that takes time and the person that plays more will have a wider network, more time to peruse/shop/talk.

    The idea that playing an hour a day in a sandbox will let you be the best at anything with or without a skill cap is completely ludicrous.

    I agree ether type should be suited to suit long or short sessions, however thus far that has not been the case.  While we can argue ideals, and we likely would agree.  In practice that has not been true.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • LEmmopeasantLEmmopeasant Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 46Member

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by LEmmopeasant


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar


    Originally posted by Hurvart


    Originally posted by Sythion


    Originally posted by Hurvart

     Perhaps all I want is to be able to craft the best swords on the server. And be famous for that. I can log in and play one hour and perhaps sell a few swords.

    What is this game where you can play 1 hour a day and be the best crafter on your server? Must not have many players, if that's possible to do.

    Some days you will probably have to play more. But you can play in smaller chunks. You are not forced to finish raids or events that lasts 4-5-6 hours like you are in some themeparks. I can perhaps play 6 hours/day if I play 1 hour in the morning, 3 hours in the afternoon and 2 hours before I go to bed late evening. But perhaps its not possible for me to ever play 5-6 hour sessions.  My point is that you have more freedom to plan your time and figure out and find something that works for you if you play a sandbox. Because you are not on rails and there is more freedom and more options in general.

     I have played a number of sandboxes.  While yes you can play as little or as long as you want, EVERY activity in a sandbox requires a significant amount of time.  Playing one hour a day you will never be the best or even among the very good ones at anything in the game ever, unless the game has a skill/level cap.

    Yes, someone could play sandbox one hour a day and eventually max out their craft. Once they max, they will be equal with other maxed crafters. Why is there debate over this?

    Uninterrupted session time required to progress is not dependent on themepark/sandbox. It's just game design. Either game archetype can be designed to suit long or short sessions.

    VengeSunsoar, in ANY game without a skill/level cap, you will always be overcome by someone playing 5x more hours than you.

     I never said you wouldn't be overcome by someone playing more hours than you in a game without a skill cap. 

    I don't have any issues with that.

    What I said was playing an hour a day will not make you the best at anything in a sandbox.  You may max out your crafting, however in sandbox games most times you have to harvest the material as well which means you need to have more skills than just crafting.  Typically the more rare an item is, the more dangerous an area it is in.  So once again you will not be the best at crafting because you cant' get the materials.

    Or if you try to buy the materials or set up a network of people to buy from you will still fall behind because all of that takes time and the person that plays more will have a wider network, more time to peruse/shop/talk.

    The idea that playing an hour a day in a sandbox will let you be the best at anything with or without a skill cap is completely ludicrous.

    I agree ether type should be suited to suit long or short sessions, however thus far that has not been the case.  While we can argue ideals, and we likely would agree.  In practice that has not been true.

    Now we are talking what it takes to become "famous" in an mmo. I really don't want to talk about this, but I can use the highlighted sentence again. In ANY online game, you will always be less famous than someone playing 5x as often as you. Doesn't matter what kind of game it is.

    If you don't think that's accurate, I need to understand how, in themeparks, 5 hours progress can be equal to one hour of progress?

    I think originally, the heart of our little back-n-forth was whether or not it's possible to make any progress in a one hour session. For example, a raid that takes two hours to finish can't be completed. Or, if our sandbox crafter has to travel 2 hours to get to an ingredient, but everytime they log out, they have to respawn at a point that's no closer.

  • norbertdickenorbertdicke Dwight, AKPosts: 1Member

    Why cant these mmorpgs get it right the first time? Why is it when I see all these advertizements of mmorpgs saying return look at all our improvements, look at all our changes. You been in development for 4 to 5 years, probably even earlier than that, you have waves after waves of closed beta testing, open beta testing, internal testing, etc. Then you still release a half assed product and then you tell us well dont worry about the crap now, we have so much potential, you as a player voice your opinion on the half assed products flaws and you get free month fan boys telling you your a troll (half of which wont even be playing after the free month is up and its time to pay). Then they say, well you shouldnt blast its flaws because it has so much potential, potential that doesnt get realized until months later and the games half dead. polo ralph lauren

    Then here come the banners, here comes the advertizements, come join us now, give us your time and money and see all the improvements we made. No, we need companys that need to start delivering on products at release, no nothing has to be 100% perfect it never will, but the rate and the quality of products being released now can be immensily improved.

  • ShaydrynShaydryn Boise, IDPosts: 14Member

    I'm confused by all these people saying "Oh, themeparks are better because I have real life obligations and don't have much time to play."

    Seriously?

    Have any of you ever been on some of the top-tier raids in WoW? 

    Yeah...they don't take any time at all... *rollseyes*

    Sometimes I wonder if the majority of the people on these forums actually play any games, or just sit here and try to be armchair developers all day long. Discussion is good, sure, but the prevailing attitudes toward specific aspects of games on these forums is mind-boggling at best.

    P.S. Sandbox ftw.

  • EmwynEmwyn MoatshirePosts: 546Member

    Originally posted by Shaydryn

    I'm confused by all these people saying "Oh, themeparks are better because I have real life obligations and don't have much time to play."

    Seriously?

    Have any of you ever been on some of the top-tier raids in WoW? 

    Yeah...they don't take any time at all... *rollseyes*

    Sometimes I wonder if the majority of the people on these forums actually play any games, or just sit here and try to be armchair developers all day long. Discussion is good, sure, but the prevailing attitudes toward specific aspects of games on these forums is mind-boggling at best.

    P.S. Sandbox ftw.

    Like you I feel that sandboxes are less demanding on my time.  True even sandboxes can take up huge chunks of time, heck any passtime can if you let it.

    the poster formerly known as melangel :P

  • XeronnXeronn TimisoaraPosts: 44Member

    If a game is demanding your time you`re doing it wrong imho . You alocate what time you can to a game , and that`s that . That the game is a themepark , a sandbox or a rts or even chess is irrelevant (or should be) to how much time you alocate to it


     


    What is relevant is the nejoyment you get from that game though . And this is where things get complicated


     


    Some see enjoyment where others see a waste of time , and the other way around , but in the end  , when you draw the line , it`s still you sitting on your ass in front of a pc screen staring at pixels . gaming time is gaming time...it`s "wasted" anyway in the sense that you dont do something better in that time , but hey as long as you (an me and everyone here) enjoys it , all`s cool


     


    Now then , only now , i think , do we get to talk about the details and tehniqualities of them pixels . Some love beeing told they are great over and over . Some love a "physical" challange . Some love maximizing there immersion in another world . I dont think there`s something wrong with any of them objectively speaking...


     


    But subjectively , i believe that video games and mmorpg`s in special should not try to emulate other forms of media (movies , music) but rather creat something new and different...unfortunatelly i`m in a very small minority, most people apparently want mmo`s that feel as cinematic as possible and with complex scripted stories


     


    For me though , if i want to read a story , i dont see any reason why i should settle for a subpar story in a video game rather then a book? sooooo many books i plan on reading...if i want a few hours of that sort of enjoyment....


     


    Same for movies .


     


    and if you`ll say it`s about combining those experiences , then i`ll say i`m gona go and watch a playthrough on youtube instead of iterrupting my cinematic experience with (ussualy) tedious game mechanic . I`m in a certain state of mind when i`m watching a movie , relaxed , etc , that`s never compatible with a state of mind i havce when playing a twitch rts/fps etc , so i dont end up enjoying the experience at it`s maximum potential


     


    Games like starcraft , DOTA and it`s kids , involving , focused , balanced , skill -based , etc ...and most importantly you fight players not npc`s . But the issue with these is..I `m of an age , job , etc etc...you all know the story...but for me i spend 8 hours / day beeing involved in tasks that require skills and decision making....i very rarely feel like playing something that requires me to stay focused and uber-involved and on the edge when i get home


     


    games like wow are the exact antithesis of what i`m looking for . I still cant wrap my head around things like binding gear and instances and no loot pvp...but then again i cant wrap my head around the reason why people listen to bieber...and i`m a minority so that`s that..


     


    And i`ve played eve for exactly the reasons why most people seem to hate the game . It`s most of the times a very relaxing game , it doesnt push you and point you and nag you and spam you with yellow dots and millions of icons. And you have full controll over how far you want to push the"dificulty" , whenever you want to do that


    The skill system , skills over time not by xp , allso made eve a lot more casual friendly then most mmo`s today  . Once you get out oof that psihologycal roadbloack of "neet to lvl" , you`ll soon learn to chill about skill lvls and just play the game


    Soo...what if an older player will beat you (allways they say...false)...it`s not suposed to be a world populated by still npc`s and thousands of super-human-god-things like all other mmo`s , If you want a really epic and memorable battle , you`ll have to accept that a lot of soldiers will die and a lot of them wont be able to do anything about it . War was allways like that . It`s not about "me vs you" ...thats mortal combat...

Sign In or Register to comment.