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User Generated Content in MMOs: Why not?

2

Comments

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

    Nobody has played Neverwinter Nights...?

    Is the Neverwinter nights MMO going to allow player generated content? that would be great.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Well, judging by the existing examples (CoX, for instance), it's basically much ado about nothing. 

    Same answer as Housing Systems:  Kind of a waste of dev resources, but when everything on the high priority list is done, why not?  It'll catch ya some of the sandbox fans.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • LEmmopeasantLEmmopeasant Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 46Member

    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

    Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

    Nobody has played Neverwinter Nights...?

    Is the Neverwinter nights MMO going to allow player generated content? that would be great.

    ""Build Your Fantasy | With The Foundry, Neverwinter’s robust editing tools, players will be able to create their own quests, zones, and stories within Neverwinter.""

    And this company has been dealing with users creating content w/Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 since 2002. Of course that was tons of seperate private instances and persistent worlds run by players. This is going to be open world. Other than that, I don't know much about the MMO Neverwinter, yet.

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Los Angeles, CAPosts: 2,555Member

    Along with a voting rating system, how about a approval process? Also if they are going to allow for dungeons to be made it should be a seperate component bought so if immature people really want to make poorly designed dungeons they will have to pay for the kit first. Make it where you have to jump thru hoops to obtain the tools, trolls don't like obstacles especially if their under 18 and have to pay for it...

    image

  • jazz.bejazz.be Sint-NiklaasPosts: 820Member Uncommon

    The way I see it: Content <> terrains/maps/world

    Content = scripts, mechanics, items etc

    Terrains/maps/world = hills, world, npc's, bridges, castles, rooms etc...and all will probably be predefined. It will all look the same, but just placed differently.

    Just like you could build maps in Counter Strike with the toolset from Valve.

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Like discussed before, 99.99% of user created content is crap. There is enough professional created fun content that i would not bother sifting through all the crap to get to the 0.01%.

     

    so i guess you never use youtube then.  its just useless, filled with pointless videos.  too much work to find anything good.  

    mmm hmmm

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • DissolutionDissolution APO, NYPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz


    Originally posted by LEmmopeasant

    Nobody has played Neverwinter Nights...?

    Is the Neverwinter nights MMO going to allow player generated content? that would be great.

     

    I was amazed that nobody actually mentioned this. Neverwinter is doing/planning exactly this. Not sure exactly how it will be implemented, or how many penises will be the result of this but it is indeed their plan. In the tradition of the NWN series, player made mods will be a part of the game. They are calling the content creation editor "The Foundry".

    On a side note, I havent played EQ2 in years. EQ2 has player made content now? That is interesting enough to make me look at the game again just to see what kind of content (and/or penises) were created by the playerbase if it is true.

    image

  • spankybusspankybus Orlando, FLPosts: 1,154Member Uncommon

    Not sure if it was already mentioned, but Pirates of the Burning Sea did this for both Flags and Ships.

    Flags were voted on the community at large, though the des reserved the right to reject anything that did not conform to the ToS and code of conduct.

    As you might expect, ships were a far more complex process, involving approval by the art staff for artistic appeal, historic accuracy and professionalism (ie, clean geometry, proper UV's for texture placement, etc). Aother words, if it looked or ran like ship, it was disallowed until it was corrected. I made them a few ships and eventually became a professional 3D artist.

    As mentioned by someone else, this is a pretty big undertaking and does require a here's of talent to achieve. I definitely believe that user context can be a very good thing, so long as the crap is weeded out. This process can be taxing on a developer, who must dedicate personnel to the review process. So, the real question, would enough people generate acceptable context to warrant the expense to the developer?

    Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
    www.spankybus.com
    -3d Artist & Compositor
    -Writer
    -Professional Amature

  • DissolutionDissolution APO, NYPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by spankybus

    Not sure if it was already mentioned, but Pirates of the Burning Sea did this for both Flags and Ships.Flags were voted on the community at large, though the des reserved the right to reject anything that did not conform to the ToS and code of conduct.As you might expect, ships were a far more complex process, involving approval by the art staff for artistic appeal, historic accuracy and professionalism (ie, clean geometry, proper UV's for texture placement, etc). Aother words, if it looked or ran like ship, it was disallowed until it was corrected. I made them a few ships and eventually became a professional 3D artist. As mentioned by someone else, this is a pretty big undertaking and does require a here's of talent to achieve. I definitely believe that user context can be a very good thing, so long as the crap is weeded out. This process can be taxing on a developer, who must dedicate personnel to the review process. So, the real question, would enough people generate acceptable context to warrant the expense to the developer?

     

    I see from your scenario how it would be demanding on the developer. However, in the context of Neverwinters plan I think they are just coming out with an engine for the game that will allow you to create a basic map (dungeon/jungle/dessert etc) and add some mobs and a premise and viola! I imagine there will be a dungeon creation "wizard" so to speak that will simplify it. Sort of like the mod creation for NWN or Morrowinds TES Construction set but with less options. I doubt unique graphics or anything outside of a list of standard models already in game will be an option. I may be wrong though, it would be an amzaing concept if you could dig that deep if you had the knowledge. I see the potential for alot of problems with it if left unchecked and/or monitored as well.

    image

  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    Ryzom does this already, except there is no dev interaction. The player takes a map, from a choice of many, and populate it with NPC's, structures, quests, and items. Then the player "publishes" it on the Ryzom Ring, and other players play it online. The creator can either stay invisible as the DM, or participate.

    This is about the most fun I've ever had in an MMO: to see how other people solve the puzzles and problems you created.

    They got around the abuse mechanisms by not allowing players to get XP, items, or money from any scenario. Only the creator is able to give out rewards. I typically gave out "cats", which are XP potions basically.

    My scenarios had several ways to win, and I would give out varying amounts of rewards, based on how they finished it.

    ------------
    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    despite the votes this is a very bad idea. example: STO: it's been a VERY VERY long time and they only recently advanced the content. They relyed too much on the foundry to create new content which was subpar imo despite what people ranked them because they didn't allow for anyone to advance the gear or the currency to what they would consider end game gear for harder foundry missions and at the same time didn't put out a single new STF mission for the borg, and did the terrible job with the loot handling for these dungeons. There were who sets of people who would drop the entire group (obviously through an outside app) and rejoin the group in order to ensure they would be the only ones to get the loot at the end with the bosses. They should have taken Anet's stance on loot. currency to purchase new items should have been distributed for tier 1 for everyone involved in every dungeon.

    So it is a terrible idea, they make it sound all fun and things but it just really makes the devs even more lazy because they can claim hey look people are rping in these things we don't have to do anything new for a whole 1 yr 6 mo and then at the end we can just break it so no one except the cheaters can get gear they need. 

    I hate gear treadmills because of hacks like this one. It's another reason why i went casual a long time ago, because people cheat to get what they want and they never catch them in time or don't do anything about it to fix it because they don't care as long as the money flows in.

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Some of you posters logic baffles me

     

    So because some games botched it or that it's a difficult thing to balance, it's a terrible idea? That makes no sense.

     

    If that was a valid reason for anything, then mankind wouldn't advance in technology or anything really

     

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Starpower

    Some of you posters logic baffles me

     

    So because some games botched it or that it's a difficult thing to balance, it's a terrible idea? That makes no sense.

     

    If that was a valid reason for anything, then mankind wouldn't advance in technology or anything really

     

    it doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks. when an idea fails in the market, the people who back up these companies that want to try to input those ideas into their new game won't go for it. thus no money for new game.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    yep because it makes the devs who are usually lazy to begin with, even lazier in the current developer climate. The devs would rather let the players make crappy content then actually push something useful and fun out. The only acception i see is Trion. Now if companies were more trustworthy in their use of the monthly sub model then yes i'd be all about it but so far the only provider of a game under a subscription model that's done anything organized, quick, listening to the concerns of the players, and doesn't abuse the player base by using their subs for their yacht parties and nothing more, is Trion. Until the rest of these companies can get on board the ethics train, they don't deserve such a break.

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member

    Originally posted by Starpower

    Some of you posters logic baffles me

     

    So because some games botched it or that it's a difficult thing to balance, it's a terrible idea? That makes no sense.

     

    If that was a valid reason for anything, then mankind wouldn't advance in technology or anything really

     

     

    amen.

     

     

    nobody's made an MMO yet that fulfils the promise of a virtual world either.   8)    

    but it'd be ultra stupid to write off the whole MMO genre just because of the 16 years or so of crap.

     

    MOST good ideas are implemented poorly the first few, or even MANY times that they are utilized.

    ESPECIALLY so with such complex products as MMOs, where there are hundreds and hundreds of fail points, ANY of which can invalidate pretty much THE WHOLE PRODUCT.  its quicker to get a good idea off the ground in simple products where there aren't that many other factors mixed in.

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • DissolutionDissolution APO, NYPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by corpusc


    Originally posted by Starpower

    Some of you posters logic baffles me
     
    So because some games botched it or that it's a difficult thing to balance, it's a terrible idea? That makes no sense.
     
    If that was a valid reason for anything, then mankind wouldn't advance in technology or anything really
     

     

    amen.

     

     

    nobody's made an MMO yet that fulfils the promise of a virtual world either.   8)    

    but it'd be ultra stupid to write off the whole MMO genre just because of the 16 years or so of crap.

     

    MOST good ideas are implemented poorly the first few, or even MANY times that they are utilized.

    ESPECIALLY so with such complex products as MMOs, where there are hundreds and hundreds of fail points, ANY of which can invalidate pretty much THE WHOLE PRODUCT.  its quicker to get a good idea off the ground in simple products where there aren't that many other factors mixed in.

     

    I agree with the disdain for the negativity towards it. However, in the case of Neverwinter and "The Foundry" for player created content, I was unaware that the Foundry was released for STO. I thought this was a new invention for Cryptic. If the same idea did not work for one game with the same company, I am now a little tentative about the concept. But you are right,) I hope that STO was the guinea pig that teaches the Neverwinter team what to do, and what not to do with it. I am rooting for Neverwinter to be a success on the inside but remaining pessimistic on the outside.

    image

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     




    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    City of Heroes actually began doing this a few years ago with their "architecht" system.

    The only problem with the idea is that for every truly good piece of content, and every truly inspired player there is out there, there are 100 pieces of complete trash, and 100 immature "kids" (both adult and young) that will build structures to resemble penises.






    How about adding that Architect Missions were highly abused and people used them to get to max level in a matter of hours.

     



    Because of this few people level normally in CoH and the game now revolves around abusing the player made content.

    That is what I remember about CoH mission architecht too.  I only came back briefly during that time period and haven't been back since.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    I'm not opposed to the idea but I've never seen it done well though.

    The players still must work within the confines of the tools given to them by the game developers.  So there isn't going to be much variation between the content besides the skin.  You could probably acheive equally good results with a random number generator as the average player.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • AzrileAzrile Houston, MDPosts: 2,582Member

    There would be a lot of technical problems.

     

    Graphics -  If players could create models and landscapes completely from scratch, that means every player would have to download all that content.  This worked ok with NWN because usually you knew the quality of the module was worth the download of the extra content.

    But if you don´t want players to have to download custom models and terrain, then the players are going to have to build content using the existing graphics.  While that may seem fine, you are then going to end up with a lot of really REALLY crappy dungeons.  The vast majority of the work for creatign content is creating the graphics.. if the developer is going to create all that, having someone inhouse actually build dungeons and quests is the easy part.

    Also, if you are allowing people to create graphics.. when do the other players have to download them?  How annoying to run across the map, find a dungeon, then have to wait 5 mins to download graphics for a dungeon that might really suck... or are you going to force every player to download all the added graphics?

     

    If you are talking about players adding models, creatures etc..  then it is a great idea and could help save dev time (as it is fairly easy to check specs on a new creature).    But creating dungeons from pre-existing graphics just would not save the devs any time and would result in a host of bad things.



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  • DissolutionDissolution APO, NYPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by Azrile

    There would be a lot of technical problems.
     
    Graphics -  If players could create models and landscapes completely from scratch, that means every player would have to download all that content.  This worked ok with NWN because usually you knew the quality of the module was worth the download of the extra content.
    But if you don´t want players to have to download custom models and terrain, then the players are going to have to build content using the existing graphics.  While that may seem fine, you are then going to end up with a lot of really REALLY crappy dungeons.  The vast majority of the work for creatign content is creating the graphics.. if the developer is going to create all that, having someone inhouse actually build dungeons and quests is the easy part.
    Also, if you are allowing people to create graphics.. when do the other players have to download them?  How annoying to run across the map, find a dungeon, then have to wait 5 mins to download graphics for a dungeon that might really suck... or are you going to force every player to download all the added graphics?
     
    If you are talking about players adding models, creatures etc..  then it is a great idea and could help save dev time (as it is fairly easy to check specs on a new creature).    But creating dungeons from pre-existing graphics just would not save the devs any time and would result in a host of bad things.


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    I doubt we would see that for an MMO anywhere in the near or distant future. At best we are probably looking at an engine that allows you to choose a map (poosiby creating a map) and injecting models which are already in game. I doubt we would see much more than a simplified version of map+pre-existing models+ basic storyline and or/ text via some type of dungeon creation wizard. Rewards would even need to be governed or they would be used as an exploit to farm good items for little to no effort. I think it wil be an option you will be able to enjoy due to the fact that it is player created but never be able to compete with the actual game content. This goes for games planning to have it and games that may consider having it for a great deal of time.

    image

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dissolution

    Originally posted by Azrile

    There would be a lot of technical problems.

     

    Graphics -  If players could create models and landscapes completely from scratch, that means every player would have to download all that content.  This worked ok with NWN because usually you knew the quality of the module was worth the download of the extra content.

    But if you don´t want players to have to download custom models and terrain, then the players are going to have to build content using the existing graphics.  While that may seem fine, you are then going to end up with a lot of really REALLY crappy dungeons.  The vast majority of the work for creatign content is creating the graphics.. if the developer is going to create all that, having someone inhouse actually build dungeons and quests is the easy part.

    Also, if you are allowing people to create graphics.. when do the other players have to download them?  How annoying to run across the map, find a dungeon, then have to wait 5 mins to download graphics for a dungeon that might really suck... or are you going to force every player to download all the added graphics?

     

    If you are talking about players adding models, creatures etc..  then it is a great idea and could help save dev time (as it is fairly easy to check specs on a new creature).    But creating dungeons from pre-existing graphics just would not save the devs any time and would result in a host of bad things.




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    I doubt we would see that for an MMO anywhere in the near or distant future. At best we are probably looking at an engine that allows you to choose a map (poosiby creating a map) and injecting models which are already in game. I doubt we would see much more than a simplified version of map+pre-existing models+ basic storyline and or/ text via some type of dungeon creation wizard. Rewards would even need to be governed or they would be used as an exploit to farm good items for little to no effort. I think it wil be an option you will be able to enjoy due to the fact that it is player created but never be able to compete with the actual game content. This goes for games planning to have it and games that may consider having it for a great deal of time.

    That would difficult at best.  What's stopping me from building a dungeon with one small room.  Packing as many mobs as allowed in that one area.  AOE them down in a few seconds.  Rinse.  Repeat.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • ObraikObraik ChristchurchPosts: 7,261Member

    SWG had user generated content since the beginning.  To begin with it involved the help of SOE event managers but eventually they developed tools that gave that power to the users, such as Storyteller that let people place objects in the world and then Chronicles which let people create their own quests.

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  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAPosts: 2,320Member Uncommon

    Because in nearly every game this has ever been an option, people use these maps purely for farming. Very few people these days  have the mind for DM'ing like the good old days of P&P games, and the idea that user generated content would make games better is idealistic. The only way to prevent that user content from being abused is to either nerf the rewards into the dirt (which has been done, the consequence being no one does them anymore) or for the devs to monitor and balance the content personally, which would be impossible to do for everything everyone makes, ever. If they had the resources to keep up with that much content influx, user-generated content wouldn't be necessary in the first place.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAPosts: 2,320Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Starpower

    Some of you posters logic baffles me

     

    So because some games botched it or that it's a difficult thing to balance, it's a terrible idea? That makes no sense.

     

    If that was a valid reason for anything, then mankind wouldn't advance in technology or anything really

     

    The flaw in your logic however is that few are blaming the technology or the developers. This is one of those cases where the blame is solely on the players who abuse the system, the same way abuse of open PvP has lead to its decline in popularity.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,476Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     




    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    City of Heroes actually began doing this a few years ago with their "architecht" system.

    The only problem with the idea is that for every truly good piece of content, and every truly inspired player there is out there, there are 100 pieces of complete trash, and 100 immature "kids" (both adult and young) that will build structures to resemble penises.






    How about adding that Architect Missions were highly abused and people used them to get to max level in a matter of hours.

     



    Because of this few people level normally in CoH and the game now revolves around abusing the player made content.

    When it first came out it was pretty bad, or awesome depending on your pov.  However that changed long ago.  Architect was heavily nerfed and the other content xp was increased.  Just prior to the f2p transition (haven't played since about a month before f2p) I would say it was pretty even, perhaps a tad more leveling in regular content vs architect.

    MA ruined COH as far as the traditional game goes.  You are quick to bring the the problem/fix but the game world never returned to what it was.  To show you, people still sit in the MA instead of the world goes to the proof that MA is still the most cost effective means in the game.

    Players will exploit anything you give them.

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