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PVP moves to the forums

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  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,870Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by cahendersonSo, there's some guerrilla forum posting going on over in the PVP forums on the Official site. One of the subcribers posted a constructive thread where he made suggestions on what they could change to 'fix' pvp. His original post was outright deleted after significant community activity. Now, various posters are engaged in a game of whack-a-mole with the mods (always a good sign) and continue to post the original thread content in differing titled threads. Here's the original post:
     
     
    When mods get down into the dirt like this, it never ends well. Teala was right, "TORtanic" indeed.

    Do you find that post constructive? I think I just found your problem...


    Adequate moderation, I say.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member

    Quite an interesting conversation in this video with Totalbiscuit's friends about the issue, clearly this is not the only example, just the most recent one:

     

     

    "when it [swtor] did the beta... and you came up with any criticism on the beta forums... they just banned you... because of course you're a troll"

    image

  • DanitaKusorDanitaKusor AdelaidePosts: 549Member Uncommon

    That isn't a full quote of the post that was deleted.  That's actually a quote of the second post in the thread.  The first one was twice as long and was basically "I told you so" where the poster quoted comments he had made in pervious weeks.  Then he posted what the opening poster here has quoted.

    A lot of valid points in his second post, just kinda ruined by the big "I told you so" post he did first.  Had he posted just the second post it might not have been deleted.

    The Enlightened take things Lightly

  • BoatsmateBoatsmate Springfield, MOPosts: 208Member

    It sounds like the real Republic is the forum posters, and the Imps are the staff censoring them. Rise up Rebels, overthrow the Tyrant! Pvp in that game is a series of ranged stuns. One time my Smuggler hung in the air being stunned long enough for me to walk the dog it seemed.

    Ballerinas are always on their toes. Why don't they just get taller ballerinas?

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    In written mediums, what you say is often less important than how you say it.

    Every time you see a poster having a meltdown like that "take on the mods, mano-a-mano by god!", you get an example; his original message, lost to his delivery.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AntariousAntarious Greenville, SCPosts: 2,802Member

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    In written mediums, what you say is often less important than how you say it.

    Every time you see a poster having a meltdown like that "take on the mods, mano-a-mano by god!", you get an example; his original message, lost to his delivery.

     

    I'd agree with that.

     

    I'd also say I'm not sure what bringing the discussion here is supposed to accomplish.   If the community over there *points at TOR* is really that upset... you know how you send a mesaage?   You all cancel your accounts and see how much the mods love their forums with no income.

     

    Its really pointless to complain about how a company runs a game.. which you don't have to play.. while you keep funding their ability to act the way they do.

     

    Its like these forums .. likely the largest complaint is what the MMO market has turned into.   Yet we keep buying the games (I'm very guilty of this too).   The only messages companies understand are...   +$  and -$....   -$ sends the best message  when you are unhappy.

     

    *edit*  I'd also say this works best when nobody actually posts they are going to cancel.   They simply cancel and leave.

    Moderator's on this site allow certain posters to create endless troll threads. Yet "warn" people for giving recommendations... account *pending* deletion because.. why bother.

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member

    Originally posted by Antarious

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    In written mediums, what you say is often less important than how you say it.

    Every time you see a poster having a meltdown like that "take on the mods, mano-a-mano by god!", you get an example; his original message, lost to his delivery.

     

    I'd agree with that.

     

    I'd also say I'm not sure what bringing the discussion here is supposed to accomplish.   If the community over there *points at TOR* is really that upset... you know how you send a mesaage?   You all cancel your accounts and see how much the mods love their forums with no income.

     

    Its really pointless to complain about how a company runs a game.. which you don't have to play.. while you keep funding their ability to act the way they do.

     

    Its like these forums .. likely the largest complaint is what the MMO market has turned into.   Yet we keep buying the games (I'm very guilty of this too).   The only messages companies understand are...   +$  and -$....   -$ sends the best message  when you are unhappy.

     

    *edit*  I'd also say this works best when nobody actually posts they are going to cancel.   They simply cancel and leave.

     

    What if you don't want to damage the game and actually want the game to succeed? Unsubbing doesn't help that.

    Redmarx did also have a post "I told you so" attached to the post in the OP.

    In it, he quoted his old posts from the PTS forum from several weeks before 1.2 came out, in which he accurately predicted all the problems with 1.2 and what the complaints would be.

    It showed he had a good grasp of the problems and warned Bioware on the test server.

    image

  • kb4blukb4blu Fuquay Varina, NCPosts: 683Member Uncommon

    "stop being arrogant, listen to your best players and follow their advice

    That would be a big mistake.

    Translation...

    Make the game the way I want it. Screw everyone else.

    SWTOR is not a game for the Hardcore.  Its was made for casuals.

    Get over it.

     

  • KaocanKaocan Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,270Member

    The gear imblance at cap is the primary problem with PvP in SWTOR. When someone new entering the 50 bracket comes in, hits a power, that on the tooltip says it does 1800-2400 damage over 3 seconds, and sees it hit 5 people for no more that 75 points each on 3 ticks.... I dont care how much class and power balancing you do, it wil never matter to the new guy coming into that bracket if they never have a chance in hell of even being a productive part of a match. Their only hope is to do enough warzones to finsh enough daily and weekly quests to get some gear that will help. But since Tier I PvP gear might as well be paper compared to BM gear, that uselessness for new level 50s will NEVER go away. BW designed level 50 gear with too steep of a stat climb. Thier changes in 1.2 made it even more of a problem, because now those without much of a chance of helping in the match due to the gear disadvantage now get nothing for rewards in a match. Instead of thier new system being something to punish the AFKers, what it did is kil the new level 50s who dont have the gear yet. A broad sweeping change to fix a problem without looking at the side effects beofre it was implimented. They screwed up, and as a result, they are going to lose a TON of players.

    (DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member

    Looks like lots of posters are playing ban-chicken with the mods in protest of the censorship of constructive threads about the 1.2 patch on swtor.com

    Dozens of these keep appearing and getting whack-a-mole deleted:

     

    image

  • RoyalPhunkRoyalPhunk Vancouver, BCPosts: 174Member

    They are definately listening to the wrong person. You want to get ideas for Content or expansion or retuning of instances you listen to casuals you want to do PVP you do NOT listen to casuals. BW Deserve what they got, they earned it.

     

  • BarbarbarBarbarbar Posts: 264Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by cahenderson

    So, there's some guerrilla forum posting going on over in the PVP forums on the Official site. One of the subcribers posted a constructive thread where he made suggestions on what they could change to 'fix' pvp. His original post was outright deleted after significant community activity. Now, various posters are engaged in a game of whack-a-mole with the mods (always a good sign) and continue to post the original thread content in differing titled threads. Here's the original post:

     

     

     









    Originally Posted by redmarx


    allow me to preempt the responses: 



    "biowarea and 1.2 are awesome you just haven't gotten used to the changes yet, well fine you predicted all the issues so biowarea should hire you and fire their lead developers, stop being an egomaniac, you're wrong, i'm an ea employee and i'm loving 1.2 and so are all these fictitious friends of mine, etc..."



    here's the most important response: What is done is done, no use crying over 1.2 now, so what would you do to fix it?



    Fine, i'll give it a shot. I expect to get flamed but alea iacta est, here we go:



    General:



    - put all the ctrl+x type keybinds on the keybinds menu so they can be changed. (looking at you "ambience")

    - add option to remove or move the red text spam in the middle of the screen and its accompanying noise.

    - allow buffs/debuffs to be resized and moved independently from unit frames.

    - reduce some of the costs on the legacy stuff, as an aggregate it is simply too much, this isn't korea.

    - merge the servers: Time to stop being arrogant, admit that you screwed up and the game needs this step to improve and draw new players. Cross-server queueing will only help if people have healthy guilds and a server community to come back to after the warzone is done.



    Pvp rewards:



    - rewards for losing become 75% of the rewards for winning in non-rated, 50% of the reward for winning in rated.

    - if you get vote-kicked or leave a warzone early, you earn no rewards.

    - reduce cost of pvp consumables.

    - return to same credits, xp, etc rewards for warzones as pre-1.2.

    - let unbalanced warzones shut down like they should.

    - reduce the gap between recruit gear and bm gear by boosting the stats on recruit gear to help new players.

    - add mods and enhancements to the pvp vendors covering stat combinations such as crit/surge, crit/power, etc - each costing 1/2 of the value of a bm or wh set piece.

    - add a symbolic +1 to every stat on high rated warzone gear so it is ever so slightly better than war hero gear.



    Class balance:



    - equalise the expertise benefits to mitigation/healing/damage to the same ratios as pre-1.2.

    - revert all class balance changes to pre-1.2 when the overall balance was frankly a lot better.



    - after that (so going from pre-1.2 class balance), specific class balance changes for empire and republic mirror classes (i'll use empire terminology from here on) like so:

    - reduce the duration of the uninterruptible buff on healing spec bounty hunter energy shield from 12 to 6 seconds.

    - increase the number of targets benefiting from kolto missile to 8, increase the heal by 20%, reduce kolto residue to 3%/6%.

    - reduce the cooldown of jolt for deception assassins to 6 seconds talented, and swap the positions of the talents fade and disjunction in their respective trees.

    - for powertech, move puncture talent up to 4th tier of the advanced prototype tree.

    - give snipers the 20% heal debuff, they do need it.

    - remove friendly force pull extrication from sorcerors, give it to healing spec operatives with the same graphic as powertech grapple, replace extrication with a 25% damage reduction for 6 secs every 2mins defensive cooldown.

    - reduce the damage of chain lightning by 10%.

    - make thundering blast instant-cast and creeping terror do the same damage but over 6 seconds instead of 18 to encourage non-hybrid specs.

    - reduce the damage of operative backstab by 20%, reduce its cooldown from 9 seconds to 6 seconds.

    - since they cannot code an actual fix to the double hidden strike bug and the double force bending bug, simply use this bandaid: Dark infusion and hidden strike both have a 1.5 second cooldown (will prevent double dipping)

    - increase the cooldown of undying rage to 3 mins with a talent in tier 4 of carnage tree to make it 90secs, keep camouflage at 50% with no booster talent.

    - change juggernaut talent decimate to increase damage of smash by 5/10% rather than 10/20%.



    Those are all the changes i feel qualified to make. There might be others that i have missed, i'm just writing this post as i go along. Evaluate the changes for 1 week, tweak class balance, then introduce rated warzones pre-season. Evaluate again for 1-2 weeks, tweak class balance, and then launch season 1.



    Finally 2 very important things for biowarea:



    - let people make level 50s on pts: There was no testing done for 1.2 because of this simple yet somehow inexplicably lacking process, give players the tools, add a npc that sells xp for free, it's that simple. The ranked warzone failure was due entirely to this, because all your "ranked warzone focus testing" on 1.2 pts had no participants.



    - stop being arrogant, listen to your best players and follow their advice: They know your game better than you do. You might think you have solid internal metrics but you are wrong, your metrics are ****. Your best players analyse the metagame better than you can, with better contextual knowledge from actual gameplay experience, so listen to them carefully and you won't make mistakes like 1.2 again.



    So many negative changes occurred because biowarea listened to the players who don't really understand the game and don't approach pvp in an analytical manner - learn to filter the feedback so you can ignore the whining of bad/inexperienced/incoherent players and listen to the analysis and experience of good players. 



    How can you differentiate the two? 



    You need to listen to people who have been level 50 in dedicated pvp guilds for a long time, who play in premades and spot the imbalances, and further down the line those with the highest ratings - engage with them and turn pvp class balance matters into a dialogue rather than a soliloquy.



    ...





    Ps: Get ilum working. There's a long and well-written thread on this pvp forum for you to read and use for a full ilum redesign. Why have you ignored that thread? Swallow your misplaced pride, use the solutions savvy players are offering you for free, and get it done.


     


    When mods get down into the dirt like this, it never ends well. Teala was right, "TORtanic" indeed.

    Some guy saying they should do as he say, not as their devs say or other people on the forum, cause they are all dumb. Yeah right.

  • Coltaine00Coltaine00 Calgary, ABPosts: 52Member

    Originally posted by Barbarbar

     

    Some guy saying they should do as he say, not as their devs say or other people on the forum, cause they are all dumb. Yeah right.

    To be fair to the poster, Gabe has ruined PvP as the lead in more games than he has.  So it might not hurt to actually listen to your posters.

     

    It is also a mistake to assume random forum poster = dumb.  This poster has probably logged more hours in SWTOR than 90% of the dev team.

  • TwwIXTwwIX Sacramento, CAPosts: 203Member

    Originally posted by kb4blu

    SWTOR is not a game for the Hardcore.  Its was made for casuals.

    Get over it.

     

    Actually, it's neither. It's a poorly balanced mess and BioWare has not f'ing clue who they should cater to.

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member

    Originally posted by wowfan1996

     




    Originally posted by Alders

    and crunching the numbers, hmm...





    I didn't say anything about numbers. :) Relevant math, logic and statistics should add value to opinions. But this has nothing to do with running a premade or being a member of a specific guild.

     

     

    The people who do the most crunching of numbers are those elitists snobs.  Casual players don't invent tactics in games, at least not intentionally.  They don't sit there in vent arguing theorycrafting or in-depth calculations of damage/mitigation, etc.

    Especially in the pvp world of things.  TOR needs to decide if it is going to be a casual game where "all ye who want to play beyond 2 months abandon hope" or something different.  It can't be all things to all people.  It's main selling points (voice overs, story arcs, companions) are more slated towards the casual audience.  The stuff they've been so hot on lately (pvp, FP's and heroics) are towards the "something different" crowd.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Originally posted by Alders

    Originally posted by wowfan1996

     




    Originally posted by Bardus

    When WAR is the poster child for how hard and fast a MMO can fall, maybe you should have.







    2) Listening to a select minority exclusively will keep only the said minority happy (at best).

    3) It's definitely not fair and not realistic as long as every player pays the same monthly fee.


     

     

    Listen to the players that are on 1-2 hours a night or listen to the ones that are on all the time and crunching the numbers, hmm...

    TOR is in the shape it's in because they're already listening to the wrong people; to the ultra casuals.  It's why there's no community, no long term outlook, no MMO or Star Wars feeling to the game.  When gear is way too easy to get and the content that delivers said gear is either way too easy or just buggy, it's time to start listening to the players that have long term vested interest.

    I'm not saying build a game around hardcore players, i'm just saying they know the game better than anyone else, including BW.

     

    Have to completely disagree with you there. I'm an ultracasual and i wouldn't touch this game for all the money in the world. The reason why? To me it's not an MMO experience. The poor kid in the post is just trying to save the game he loves. Now when it comes to him saying they should only listen to the hardcore i agree only so far as the pvpers are concerned because i see that pvp is usually dominated by the hardcore players.

    HOWEVER, saying that the entire problem with this game comes from them listening to the casuals is just stupid at best. It's a complete and utter lie at it's foundation. The casuals aren't the problem in this title, the devs are because the devs of this game aren't REALLY listening to any of their players they are just carrying on despite everyone's requests in their forums. It shows.

    What gets me is why would anyone bother at this stage? If they didn't listen to you in beta why stay and put yourself through that? I know i wouldn't especially since they are taking my money (hypothetically) for me to even post on something. It's one of the many reasons i left WoW. Arrogant self centered Devs who don't listen to their playerbase do not deserve a dime. The sooner people take back the power from these people by hitting them where it counts, their wallets, the sooner they might actually wake-up and realize it's not all about what they want, it's about the players and what the players want because they are the ones footing the bill post launch. So no, it's definitely not the casuals, it's the Devs not listening to ANYONE.

    If you want to blame a company for listening to casuals, blame (Anet) GW2, that's a casual gamers game and it's one of the many reasons i'm getting it ASAP. SWTOR was definitely not built for casuals or they would have open world events, all the questing would be optional, there would be no dungeons and no gear treadmill. That's ultra casual.

  • wowfan1996wowfan1996 NonePosts: 719Member


    Originally posted by iceman00
    The people who do the most crunching of numbers are those elitists snobs.
    Sorry, I didn't notice any in the post quoted by the TC. Again: elitism never adds credibility. Repeat this mantra 10 times every morning and you'll be cured.

    MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member

    Originally posted by wowfan1996

     




    Originally posted by iceman00

    The people who do the most crunching of numbers are those elitists snobs.





    Sorry, I didn't notice any in the post quoted by the TC. Again: elitism never adds credibility. Repeat this mantra 10 times every morning and you'll be cured.

     

    Most of the time, "elitist" in the gaming world is the equivalent of "fascist" in politics:  what you use to label someone you just don't like.  Many times people who are called "elitist" are simply those who recognize a bad idea when they see it, backing it up, and the person suggesting it gets a lil butthurt.

    And other times, the correct word for them is being a jerk.

    Everytime a game makes bad changes, they claim it was to get rid of "elitism" in the game.  In other words, its a scapegoat.

  • wowfan1996wowfan1996 NonePosts: 719Member


    Originally posted by iceman00
    Most of the time, "elitist" in the gaming world is the equivalent of "fascist"
    Exactly. Elitist is simply someone who thinks he represents a superior "caste".

    MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon

    Yeh you really can't say that BW is listening to casuals.  Heck, usually "casuals" specially "ultra-casuals" aren't going to even care enough to post on the forums.  They will just log in, play, and if the game starts to suck for them they will just shrug, log off, and play something else.  It's actually hard to tell if BW actually listens to the players anyways.  When the game first launched, the pvp forums were filled with crys for nerfing operatives/scoundrels.  Soon after, knee jerk nerfing began.  However on the PTS people were warning BW about their sweeping class "balance" changes (haha) and WZ/Comms changes.  We now see that BW pretty much ingnored the player base and went ahead with 1.2.  Now you can easily see BW backpedaling and attempting damage control with free 30 day extensions on subs.

    The people who are posting in the forums that are crying, asking for nerfs, venting, etc are mostly the solid playerbase that mostly cares about the game they are paying for and want it changed to fit THEIR needs.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,870Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by rodingo

    The people who are posting in the forums that are crying, asking for nerfs, venting, etc are mostly the solid playerbase that mostly cares about the game they are paying for and want it changed to fit THEIR needs.

    Still minority tho...

  • Sith2112Sith2112 Toronto, ONPosts: 43Member

    Why people complain and continue to play is beyond me.

    If they are that unhappy with it. Then log out and move on.

    I recall seeing a post on the patch server about someone who was able to do quite well with a Sorc after the "nerf" and he posted his stats and explained how he played and a good amount of people called him fanbio and said he was lying all because they didn't want to change the way they played. - That's what it is coming to.. 

    Bottom line - they bought the game to play it. It's not what they expected so rather than speak with their wallets, the choose to continue to play and complain.

    I have issues with some things in the game but in all honesty, if it bothers me that much - I'll move on.

    The constant whining and QQ posts are tiresome. I only go there to "TRY" and get some good advice and info about classes and I'm forever weeding through crap posts... 

    Oh well...QQ about them makes me just as bad I guess...:)

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Kaocan

    The gear imblance at cap is the primary problem with PvP in SWTOR. When someone new entering the 50 bracket comes in, hits a power, that on the tooltip says it does 1800-2400 damage over 3 seconds, and sees it hit 5 people for no more that 75 points each on 3 ticks.... I dont care how much class and power balancing you do, it wil never matter to the new guy coming into that bracket if they never have a chance in hell of even being a productive part of a match. Their only hope is to do enough warzones to finsh enough daily and weekly quests to get some gear that will help. But since Tier I PvP gear might as well be paper compared to BM gear, that uselessness for new level 50s will NEVER go away. BW designed level 50 gear with too steep of a stat climb. Thier changes in 1.2 made it even more of a problem, because now those without much of a chance of helping in the match due to the gear disadvantage now get nothing for rewards in a match. Instead of thier new system being something to punish the AFKers, what it did is kil the new level 50s who dont have the gear yet. A broad sweeping change to fix a problem without looking at the side effects beofre it was implimented. They screwed up, and as a result, they are going to lose a TON of players.

    That is indeed a big problem especially in the arena type PVP. If my basic equip lv 50 attacks a BM, it's like attacking with cotton balls. Not fun!

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • Shatter30Shatter30 Waterford, MIPosts: 485Member Uncommon

    Doesnt matter, GW2 will be out soon so to heck with TOR and their horrible devs

  • GreyhooffGreyhooff New York, NYPosts: 654Member

    Originally posted by Shatter30

    Doesnt matter, GW2 will be out soon so to heck with TOR and their horrible devs

    GW2 open beta email just went out today.

    image

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