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1- I'm feeling so insecure within all this enthusiasm !
2- I will lose all the popularity I built on my current MMO server !
3- I don't understand those new game mechanics, so it means they are bad !
4- Being positive is gay so I have to hate it !
5- I didn't hear about this game before last month so it can't be serious !
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Originally posted by NMStudio Originally posted by Wolvards Originally posted by raystantz 1. No Open World PVP 2. No Open World PVP 3. No Open World PVP 4. No Open World PVP 5. No Open World PVP
What Themepark MMO has open world PvP?
So he's not allowed to have an opinion about it? Thanks. Maybe you could give us a list of other issues we're supposed to avoid?
Good thing i read your edit first PvP servers are the only exception. Because a true open world PvP doesn't play well with a themepark. If all 5 of your reasons are "No Open World PVP" then even a PvP server won't be enough of an open world PvP feel, Its super hard to be implemented properly in a themepark title/design, i asked in another thread, besides PvP exclusive servers, what theme park mmo has a true "open world pvp"?
Wasn't trying to offend anyone, i've only played a couple MMOs, DAoC, WAR and SW:TOR. None of them had a real open world PvP. Thats why i ask. If you are a die hard open world PvPr, Themepark is a very limited way to go.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Originally posted by joocheese As to the top 5 arguments against Guild Wars 2, here are 5 things that actually concern/worry me about the game 1. Massive lag in wvw 2. Items in Cash Shop affecting the balance between players; giving unfair advantage to p2w 3. wvw is not technically world pvp; it is a 2 week long massive battleground involving 3 servers (i.e. no world pvp) 4. Limit of players per server in wvw (causing queing times for wvw) 5. Dynamic events becoming repetitive and predictable I have pre purchased 2 copies of GW2 (for me and my wife). I am not a GW2 fanboy but I am extremely excited about the game. the above mentioned arguments are just my concerns/worries regarding the game so... GW2 trolls, please go easy on me, I'm on your side ;-)
1) We have no idea about lag, but most videos do not show lag just Frame rates drop. With 300 players per map, it is a concern.
2) Not a warry at all.
3) Who would want world PVP. Sorry but going around ganking lower levels is not PVP(it only is to crapy pvpers). And like others have said what thempark MMO has world pvp worth anything. Nothing even close to something like EVE online.
4) this is a true concern, since we know that each map (4 maps total) can have over 100 from each server each. That come out to be 300 people per map or 1200 for all 4, or 400 from each server. And thats just the min that they are trying for. Its going to be a just wait and see
5) all content gets repetitive and predictable. I would expect that it will take longer for DE's than dungeons in other games.
Originally posted by Wolvards Originally posted by raystantz 1. No Open World PVP 2. No Open World PVP 3. No Open World PVP 4. No Open World PVP 5. No Open World PVP
World of Warcraft, Rift, SWTOR, EQ2, Vanguard, Fallen Earth, do I need to continue?
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by Distopia The only one I see a lot of is the lack of endgame thing, which his reasonings why it's not a problem were rather weak. You could easily make the same argument he used in regard to TOR ( alts: play through different class stories), and it still doesn't explain it away. Repeating stuff isn't a good argument against the top reason people bring that up. In my experience on forums, the main factor these folks have is against the idea that dev made content supplies a good end-game, this is usually in regard to a want for sandboxy features at endgame, not Raiding as is the common area rebuttals assume. IE City building, community building, etc..Things that all themeparks lack and why they receive so much flak in regard to this subject.
I disagree. His argument wasn't entirely revolved around repeating stuff. He was mostly stating how getting to 80 doesn't mean you've played through the game.
This guy goes into more detail on that: TyriaTalk (ya, I know it's an old video, but it's still relevant)
Basically, how other games work is generally you have these zones streamlined for lvling, with little else to them. There are usually a few options of lvling zones once you get to the higher lvl brackets, but once you clear one there's pretty much no reason to go back. GW2 doesn't work this way. There's a huge variety of places to explore. It's very possible to get to 80 while skipping a large majority of the content. Especially if you're only goal is that max lvl. So, getting to lvl 80 doesn't mean that 'okay, now we can take on the hardest stuff'. Sure there will be difficult content at 80, but there's also difficult content leading up to 80 as well, sprinkled all over the world. This is why there's no 'endgame', what you're doing at 80 is the same thing you've probably been doing all along (unless you've just been grinding). Exploring, running dungeons, pvp, wvw, skill challenges, etc.
It would be cool if they had some more sandboxy elements, but the truth of the matter is that design style is still very much a niche market atm. GW2 is taking the themepark style and bringing it back closer to the sandbox style, but for them to go all the way would alienate a lot of players. Most people either don't have time for a sandbox, or don't get as much enjoyment out of them. The reason we see so many sandbox arguments on these forums is because these forums tend to get a lot of MMO vets (oldschoolers) lerking on them. The actually market is much much bigger than what's reflected on these boards.
With all the ridiculous complaints we've seen on GW2, can you just imagine if it was even more sandboxy? People would be so clueless about how to play that game that they would basically be like 'whelp.. I hope diablo3 doesn't suck'..
I was speaking purely of what is referred to as End-game. As in the focus of the game once you reach that point. That was his essential overall point, the entire game is endgame content. ANd right there is the problem many are going to have with "endgame" it is content based, content is extremely finite, the better it is the more finite it becomes. THis is the root of many of these complaints.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Wolvards Originally posted by NMStudio Originally posted by Wolvards Originally posted by raystantz 1. No Open World PVP 2. No Open World PVP 3. No Open World PVP 4. No Open World PVP 5. No Open World PVP
I think people are so dissapointed because this game had such great potential for open world PvP. The WvWVW is just weak in my opinion... some mystical battle field where you're fighting some unknown versions of your own people for some unknown reason... Just doesn't work for me.
I've played every triple AAA MMO in existence since UO.. When I say open world pvp I mean.. and simply..
- The ability to attack and/or kill other players in any area of the game world with the exception of instanced areas, or heavily guarded cities. I don't need rewards, I don't need nodes to guard.
The best fun I've ever had in ANY mmo, were some of the large scale random skirmishes that happened out in the open world, without any planning and without any rewards at stake. I don't need to loot your corpse either.
Originally posted by Distopia I was speaking purely of what is referred to as End-game. As in the focus of the game once you reach that point. That was his essential overall point, the entire game is endgame content. ANd right there is the problem many are going to have with "endgame" it is content based, content is extremely finite, the better it is the more finite it becomes. THis is the root of many of these complaints.
I understand, but again I disagree.
For sandboxers, yes... that is a huge complaint. However, most of the people following this game are not sandboxers (I know it may not seem like it on these forums). The main complaint about endgame (as I've seen) has more to do with a lack of a gear treadmill / raiding in the traditional sense, than on it missing sandboxy features.
This game really was never intended to be a sandbox, but it does help bridge the gap between themeparks and sandboxes a bit.
So yes, the PvE content is finite. The replayability in that sense comes more from either exploring areas you haven't seen yet, or trying to make sure events don't fail (because, if events fail you start losing outposts, which are your primary methods of travel in this game). However, unlike with most other MMOs, the PvE in this game doesn't become obscelete nearly as quickly. So while, yes it's finite, most players are not going to exhaust all of the PvE content before a new expansion or update comes out. This is also assuming that players never do PvP or WvW. This was much the same way in GW1, and to this day you have people trying to get help completing the expansions.
Originally posted by fiontar The Top 5 Arguments Against Guild Wars 2 I don’t like PvP! There’s no raiding/PvE endgame! There are no healers/tanks! I can’t play my favorite role! The combat is too hard! There’s no subscription! It’ll lose money, crash, burn and fail! Great article over at ZAM discussing the five above mentioned arguements against GW2 and why they may not hold up under closer scrutiny. Definitely worth a read and further discussion.
Well written article. I am personally still on the fence about the game. but I like reading well written articles that don't hail the game as the next messiah of MMOs. Articles like this tend to lean me more toward purchasing the title. Been burnt by the hype train before, but this article definately addressed some of my concerns - like the endgame and roles. I am a raider at heart, and that has been a concern for me. Thanks for the link OP!
I only have two worrys.
Cash shop: Lets see how long it stays nongameplay items.
All classes DPS: Lets see how long untill one class is clearly better then all classes in pvp.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Originally posted by raystantz Originally posted by Wolvards Originally posted by NMStudio Originally posted by Wolvards Originally posted by raystantz 1. No Open World PVP 2. No Open World PVP 3. No Open World PVP 4. No Open World PVP 5. No Open World PVP
It is this argument that i'm confused by. So by open world, you mean WAR's style of it, or SW:TOR, or DAoC. All those are, are massive battlegrounds, without limits on the population, to a point. obviously there is server caps. And in those massive BGs there is so many objectives, keeps, towers, relics, supply points, everything. It isn't a set gameplay. it isn't 12v12. it isn't even 100v100. in other words, it's not fair and balanced. who ever wants to RvR can RvR, and if your server/team/realm doesn't RvR enough, you will lose, because it isn't fair. GW2 WvWvW is the same. It is seperated from the PvE, just like SW, and WAR, and DAoC. There isn't multiple instances of that fight, there isn't shards, there is one server. 4 zones, 1 server. It is just like WAR, Elf, Dwarf, Emp, And that other wierd one that was like a mix of PvE / PvP.
I can kind of see the fact that there is a population cap in GW2, but if they keep total server population low enough, or slowly raise the caps on the servers, then we won't touch the server cap.
Now with your last 2 lines, what do you think WvW is? It is the same large scale fights. It isn't planned, and there isn't only objectives A-D to take, there is 13 different objectives in each zone, 6 camps, 4 towers, and 3 keeps PER zone. multiply that by 3, then add the 4th which has 22 different objectives, So that is why i'm failing to see why it isn't "open world". It is essentially the same design behind DAoC, WAR, and SW:TOR Illum.
Link to the WvW keeps per area...
scroll down to mechanics. that is what i'm talking about. Not trying to have an argument here trying to have a discussion and understand why you say it isn't open world PvP, when you use random size skirmishes as an example of open world.
Any game that is a "PvP" centric game and then flops in the death penalty department... kind of says it all for me. I'll wait for a real pvp mmorpg to come back.
And that's totally cool. But this game was designed specifically to promote a cooperative PvE experience, moreso than any other game out there. It's one of its defining characteristics. If OWPvP were implemented, it would be a totally different game, and one that would feel much more derivative than it does because so many other games have already done exactly that. No other game has taken player cooperation to this level before. It's what sets it apart.
You're free to complain about the lack of OWPvP if that's something you enjoy but can't get. But remember, you don't walk into a rock concert and then complain about the noise because hey, it goes with the territory. It's part of the experience. Same goes for GW2 and cooperative PvE.
Originally posted by sinjin Any game that is a "PvP" centric game and then flops in the death penalty department... kind of says it all for me. I'll wait for a real pvp mmorpg to come back.
GW2 isn't a PvP-centric game...
Also, you are gonna be waiting for a long time. People don't like to be punished heavily when the game is designed around players killing other players. (i.e. high death penalty in PvP is very niche)
Open world pvp is fun because it is something that could happen at any time. It is spontaneous and unpredictable. GW2 doesn't have that. You plan when and where you want to pvp, it is set on a timer, the goals are known to everyone. You are guaranteed a fight and go in prepared to do so. Its in a can. Its esport. It sucks imo.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
wow....7 pages of this
I don't get why people can't look at a new game as it's own entity. Why we have so many discussions about "why no OWPvP" or anything else. Back in the day, we just hoped for a new cool game to play. Back when only 2 or 3 came along in a year. Maybe it's the same now, but we have 58k to try and choose from and not 15.
Wonder if it's why so many games fail too. Listening to the masses instead of just making a cool game.
I understand the distinction, but I don't get it as a player. If the turn off is that there won't be the same level of opportunity to gank and grief, fine, GW2 is not that game and I'm glad for it.
However, WvW takes place in four massive game zones, each the biggest the game allows. That's a lot of space in which you can play something that will feel very much like Open World PVP. Given the small world size of a lot of recent AAA MMOs that have offered OWPVP, GW2 may offer almost as large a total landscape where PVP is available as some other titles.
You can level from level 2 to level 80 entirely in WvW. Not many AAA, PVP enabled titles allow you to do all your leveling in a PVP environment. Usually you complete at least the first 25% to 35% of the leveling curve before you enter contested areas.
There is PvE content in WvW. You can gather resources, craft, earn loot and gain XP within WvW. For players who want to level with the added excitement that a PvP enabled environment can offer, you can get that in WvW.
I guess, for some, it may be frustrating that many others on their server can level up without ever being in danger of open environment PVP. All those players, unskilled at PvP, that won't make easy targets for someone looking for an ego boost. "Damn carebear game...grumble....grumble....grumble...."
People who actually enjoy challenging open environment PVP will likely love WvW. Everyone scaled to level 80, no way of knowing the true level, or even the name, of an enemy you spot in the environment. Never knowing for sure that you will have the upper hand until you actually engage and test your skill against the other player.
It depends on what you seek from open environment PVP. GW2 offers a lot for those who like a challenge and enjoy proving themselves based on skill, rather than relying on artificial, grind based power enhancement and/or a large level disparity to give them a massive edge. However, yes, the game does offer a lot less for those who enjoy PVP where they can reliably pick fights they know they will win.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Where are you people getting this PvP-centric stuff from? What is it exactly about GW2 that supposedly classifies it as PvP-centric? Because I can guarantee you right now, that there will be a hell of a lot more PvE content in the game than PvP. Just because it doesn't treat PvP like a red-headed stepchild (like so many ostensibly PvE games), doesn't mean that it's raison d'etre is PvP.
Originally posted by DannyGlover Open world pvp is fun because it is something that could happen at any time. It is spontaneous and unpredictable. GW2 doesn't have that. You plan when and where you want to pvp, it is set on a timer, the goals are known to everyone. You are guaranteed a fight and go in prepared to do so. Its in a can. Its esport. It sucks imo.
I don't like being gank by some idiot who is too much of a bitch to fight me head on, so he waits till I'm not in a position to fight back. That is spontaneous but in the wrong way, it reward noobs while punishing regular players. For the majority no open world is a benefit, for the vocal minority it's a big deal.
Originally posted by silvermember Originally posted by DannyGlover Open world pvp is fun because it is something that could happen at any time. It is spontaneous and unpredictable. GW2 doesn't have that. You plan when and where you want to pvp, it is set on a timer, the goals are known to everyone. You are guaranteed a fight and go in prepared to do so. Its in a can. Its esport. It sucks imo.
Originally posted by Unlight Originally posted by sinjin Any game that is a "PvP" centric game and then flops in the death penalty department... kind of says it all for me. I'll wait for a real pvp mmorpg to come back.
They aren't, they are pullin it straight from a smelly crack on their body, fling off a bit of poo, and throwing it on the forums.
sorry i had to say it lol.
OWPvP sucks, in my opinion.
Hey, that was easy.
Originally posted by DannyGlover Originally posted by silvermember Originally posted by DannyGlover Open world pvp is fun because it is something that could happen at any time. It is spontaneous and unpredictable. GW2 doesn't have that. You plan when and where you want to pvp, it is set on a timer, the goals are known to everyone. You are guaranteed a fight and go in prepared to do so. Its in a can. Its esport. It sucks imo.
Open world PvP in your terms mean every area in the game, you can attack someone for absolutely no reason correct?
Or is your definition something different, cause that is what OWPVP is, everything, everywhere, is free game, all the time.
World PVP is fun because its not planned.
I don't have to "queue" for it, and it happens when I'm just out and about, or I can go "looking for it".
Each time its a brand new experience. With every other kind of pvp, its "canned". I already know whats going to happen, I know where all the "hiding spots" are.. I know the strategies. With world pvp, the strategy is never the same.
WvW is not it.
Originally posted by Wolvards Originally posted by Unlight Originally posted by sinjin Any game that is a "PvP" centric game and then flops in the death penalty department... kind of says it all for me. I'll wait for a real pvp mmorpg to come back.
Probably because its previous installment was a pvp centric game.