Your standard raiding guild has their core on two nights, about 4 hours per night.
8 hours a week isn't going to devastate anyone's social life. Most of you on these forums spend triple that much time quest grindan', browsing these forums, and whining about the good old days day in day out.
That is too much when I have a family. 2 hrs is ok. 3 is stretching it. 4 .. never. And it is not just the time spent in the raid dungeon, there is also some prep .. waiting for people to show up and what-not.
WOW does solve that problem by breaking up 8 bosses fight into two parts, and offering LFR.
I am a raider in EQ and i have raided alot in wow but one of the reasons i play EQ and not wow is cause wow raids are gank fests with litle to no organization not like eq . In EQ when you raid if you all dont pull together as a team the raid will fail very fast and the guy that mesed up gets booted and thats the end of his raiding untill he can learn how to play as a team.
But saying that i do belive that all raids should be token rewards that you can spend on what ever you need.
DKP system for loot is a outdated way to get loot as most people cant raid 4 or 5 days a week to get the DKP to go in on anything good . If it was a token system then at least you wouldnt have to compete against the guy who can raid 5 days a week .
Any PvE activity which requires more than 5 or 6 people to actively coordinate with each other doesn't interest me. I don't want to have to put up with the bullsh-t.
Any MMO which requires me to accept another player as my Lord and Master and put up with abuse from him if I want to continue to progress is going to either never get my money to begin with or is going to lose my subscription the moment I see that sort of crap going on.
Now this doesn't mean I don't want to have lots of other people sharing the same virtual world, I just don't want to have to form up in groups of 10, 20, 30, 40 or more in order to progress. Five or Six people is fine, thanks. I prefer to matter and not just be another face in the crowd.
While I kind of agree with what you're saying, it sounds more like you just have a problem with authority than anything else. I've never been a huge raiding fan myself, but I did Dynamis runs back in FFXI.
There was no "abuse" from the linkshell leader. Yes, commands were given, but she wasn't a d-bag about them, nor was anyone ever removed from the group unless they just really screwed up multiple times and refused to even try to follow orders, or they went afk for the bulk of the trip.
As far as not being "another face in the crowd", even in a raid, if you do well, you stand out. If not, you're forgotten. An MMORPG is not really the type of game to play if you dont want to be another face in the crowd. With hundreds, sometimes thousands, of players all playing the same game, no matter how hard they try, they cant make every character the hero, because if everyone's a hero, then "hero" just becomes the status quo.
because if everyone's a hero, then "hero" just becomes the status quo.
And if everyone's a trophy rack, trophies don't have any value at all.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
When i always feel the need to raid I usually only make it a week or so before i quit. Not because it is hard but because of the horribel grind and time it takes to do it.
Make a game that has very hard group based pve without a horrible stupid level and gear grind to do that content.
It seems that the new trend is to make easier versions of the instants. I m sorry but i want my raids hard I just dont want to spend the time grinding and waiting.
Playing: PO, EVE Waiting for: WoD Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
I've raided three or four times in EverQuest II. The only thing I looted was an angry wife.
I enjoyed the raiding experience. However, stacking DKP in order to get a few pieces of gear is something I don't have time for. I have a family. Raiding takes hours. It's extremely rare that I have a few solid hours without interruption.
I'm not one of those guys who simply wants to earn the best loot through some bs instanced pvp process or solo quest. However, I do think they need to design a way so that weekend raiders can get a little something.
Be very careful. Most wives have a super human power similar to The Hulk where the angrier they get, the stronger they get.
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Your standard raiding guild has their core on two nights, about 4 hours per night.
8 hours a week isn't going to devastate anyone's social life. Most of you on these forums spend triple that much time quest grindan', browsing these forums, and whining about the good old days day in day out.
What kind of a gem of a reply do we have here? A straight-faced post that declares a 4 hour block of reserved time, twice a week, has little to no impact on someone's life/social life.
This is my new favorite post on MMORPG.
It's like.. an innocent masterpiece that highlights the contrasting realities between all kinds of players. A genuine confusion from the perspective of one side of the coin, wondering how such a seemingly simple thing could be a detriment to one's social life. The "simplicity" of 4 hours in one night, doing it twice in a week, like shaking salt and pepper on your evening meal, with no concept fathomed that another person can't turn their responsibilities off for 4 hour chunks without destroying their entire lives.
A 4 hour block of time suddenly becomes "litte to no impact on one's social life" vs the destruction of one's actual life, when looked at from both sides. The beauty of this reply is the poster's authenticity in being unaware of the other possibilities. Whether this ignorance is due to inexperience or young age or just an adopted social position over the years is not important, nor whether the view is right or wrong. I propose that the knowledge that was shared here about a human being's capacity to only relate to what they know, is priceless.
Your standard raiding guild has their core on two nights, about 4 hours per night.
8 hours a week isn't going to devastate anyone's social life. Most of you on these forums spend triple that much time quest grindan', browsing these forums, and whining about the good old days day in day out.
What kind of a gem of a reply do we have here? A straight-faced post that declares a 4 hour block of reserved time, twice a week, has little to no impact on someone's life/social life.
This is my new favorite post on MMORPG.
It's like.. an innocent masterpiece that highlights the contrasting realities between all kinds of players. A genuine confusion from the perspective of one side of the coin, wondering how such a seemingly simple thing could be a detriment to one's social life. The "simplicity" of 4 hours in one night, doing it twice in a week, like shaking salt and pepper on your evening meal, with no concept fathomed that another person can't turn their responsibilities off for 4 hour chunks without destroying their entire lives.
A 4 hour block of time suddenly becomes "litte to no impact on one's social life" vs the destruction of one's actual life, when looked at from both sides. The beauty of this reply is the poster's authenticity in being unaware of the other possibilities. Whether this ignorance is due to inexperience or young age or just an adopted social position over the years is not important, nor whether the view is right or wrong. I propose that the knowledge that was shared here about a human being's capacity to only relate to what they know, is priceless.
+1
there is a HUGE difference between browsing and chatting on these forums during my lunch break at work and SPENDING 4 HOURS STRAIGHT on a game. I have things to do...you know dishes, laundry, fixing car, making dinner etc etc. I dont have my mommy to do that for me when im raiding for 4 HOURS STRAIGHT.
Playing: PO, EVE Waiting for: WoD Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
Your standard raiding guild has their core on two nights, about 4 hours per night.
8 hours a week isn't going to devastate anyone's social life. Most of you on these forums spend triple that much time quest grindan', browsing these forums, and whining about the good old days day in day out.
On topic, I don't know if I'm fully sold on raids being their own line of progression separate from 5 mans. I like how the 5 mans have become a bit more involved, and now properly show players glimpses of what they can expect in a raid. They serve their purpose as being a gateway to raiding, giving the gear and skill necessary to hit current content without being too bad.
Browsing is not the same because a lot of the time people browse on the go on their mobile devices when they have nothing better to do. Also you can always stop browsing right away whereas once you start a 4-hour raid you have to be there pretty much throughout the whole thing without going afk.
Hell, I don't spend 8 hours a week for all my browsing combined let alone this site alone. I often don't spend 8 hours gaming a week too. It really depends.
But if I play a game like Skyrim I can always stop whereas raids force you to sit in front of your computer for 4 hours. What if something pops up? You just ignore it?
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But most of the arguments against raiding don’t make sense.
Who says Raiding has to be harder than normal party dungeons? Just because its been that way in previous MMO, doesn’t mean that Raid Dungeon has to be the hardest form of PvE.
This doesn’t make sense, because F2P games also have this. Subs have nothing to do with it.
Gear progression seems to apply to everything. Not just Raid Dungeons. What makes Party dungeons different from this?
This applies to anything now days. Not just raiding.
This I agree on.
Well doesn’t this apply to anything as well? Wipe in Party dungeons and PvP as well. Not just a Raiding kind of trend.
Subjective, but also apply to everything. I find Party dungeons to be tedious and boring, compared to raiding.
Not sure how Raiding can be linked to cloning WoW, when games older than WoW also had it… but I guess this is a modern day complaint about everything…
Can't really agree with most of your points
1. No one says raids have to be harder than dungeons, but it wouldn't make sense for raids to be easier when they give access to the best gear. So if they are made easier than the loot should be reflected as such
2. Archaic definition. F2P are relative new so a new definition hasn't really set in. A better way would be: Something to keep people playing. This will result in players spending more money on the game, either through a sub or a cash shop.
3. It's not different, but due to the time needed it's a much larger treadmill. So the issue is also much larger.
4. Raiders still behave elistist more than anyone else apart from top tier PvPers perhaps. So still applies
5. Of course that isn't really disputable.
6. Raid wipes affect a much larger group of people and can bring down morale much more so than dungeon groups.
7. Everything gets boring and tedious after a while, but due to the large treadmill they will become quite boring and tedious long before you are done. Especially if new people keep needing to learn the fight and slowing down the fights.
8. It is irrelevant if any games had raids before WoW. WoW made the mmo genre popular thus it is related too a lot more than others.
but you are kinda showing my point. I explain:
1. But who said Raids need to give the best loot? it may be done that way in other games, but thats not what Raid is. In WoW, Arenas give the best PvP gear. that doesnt mean Arenas in every MMO need to give best PvP gear, right?
2. this doesnt make sense. Asian gamers play the same kind of MMO, but on a F2P model. Raids have nothing to do with the payment model. again, both F2P and P2P MMO have it. cash shop or no cash shop.Raids have nothing to do with extending a sub. Having Fun, will do that job good enough to keep subs. I play Rift, yet I dont do Raid dungeons, even though I would like to. But it keeps subs. Raiding has nothing to do with it, as people seem to think.
3. but everything is a trademill in some way. Nothing in MMO of modern tech allows for gameplay to be excluded from repetition. 5 man dungeons in a game like WoW has Gear progression just like Raid dungeons in that game. Why make Gear Trademill exclusive to only Raiding, when gear is rewarded everywhere in such a game? GW2 suppose to remove the gear grind from its 5 man dungeons, so why couldnt it also remove gear grind from a larger scale dungeon?
4. this is found everywhere in games, including 5 man dungeons. this isnt a Raider only thing. Its a player's attitude thing only. again, elitist can be found in all forms of gameplay. why exclusive this title to Raids?
5. well we agree on this.
6. Well that happens when you lose at anything. want to also make PvP only 1v1 so you dont hurt other people's feelings on a team PvP game as well? cant help that. not everybody is going to Win 24/7. Losing is part of the motivation to win and the learning process.
7. again this apply to everything. Grind can be in PvP, Soloing, or even Party Dungeons. this is not something that is exclusive to Raiding. Things get boring at times for different things. I get bored of party dungeons and any small scale multiplayer, including FPS games that have small scale. it bores me. but this is subjective to me view of what is boring or not. I am just saying, the grind is everywhere, not just from Raiding.
8. well WoW has 3 talent trees per class. does that mean all future MMO have to also have 3 talent trees per class just because WoW is popular? this doesnt justify anything. WoW is popular,and uses 5 player as the party dungeon size, does this mean all MMORPG with party dungeons need to be 5 man? the WoW way, isnt the ONLY way. it works, but not the ONLY way.
because if everyone's a hero, then "hero" just becomes the status quo.
And if everyone's a trophy rack, trophies don't have any value at all.
That is obviously NOT true. If everyone has a trophy but you, it is a sign that you are behind even the average. And people place a value in at least not to be below average.
I think the concept of raiding took a major leap forward with WoW's introduction of the Raid Finder utility and difficulty setting.
Don't have tons of time to prep/prepare?
Doesn't matter.
Don't have 9-24 friends online?
Doesn't matter.
Don't have the best reflexes or timing?
Doesn't matter.
It's easy mode, it's PUG friendly, and you STILL get gear upgrades over what you can get via small group dungeons.
It's hot join, your "progress" is saved per boss so you can hop in/out as you need to.
And the best part?
It doesn't take ANYTHING away from the "normal" and "hard" mode raids designed for guilds and the hardcore who have the time for the prep and everything else.
And you know what? They get better gear for their extra efforts.
It really is a picture perfect way to do raiding, if you are going to be doing "traditional" raiding at all in your MMO.
It's 3-tier raiding or nothing IMO from here on out.
There seem to be many misconceptions circulating around about how the MMO community perceives raiding. And I believe this is due to what people have been exposed to.
Not to single out the Guild Wars 2 and World of Warcraft community. But I will use them as an example of my point later on.
World of Warcraft is one of the most popular MMORPG with raiding, so it’s something most people can relate to when it comes to the topic of Raiding. MMO before WoW had more of a persistent theme to them, But WoW made it less stressful to player with use of Instances.
But not much changed from there. This lead to a few misconceptions on what Raiding Dungeons are, based on what past developers have designed them to be.
In Vanilla WoW:
Less than 2 % of players made it into Naxxramas.
In TBC WoW:
Less than 8% of players made it to Illidan and beyond.
Judging by these numbers, it would seem that most people DON’T LIKE RAIDING. I was one of those players that didn’t make it. But do I hate raiding? No. I just couldn’t do it, because it was way too hard which required much greater preparation that I just couldn’t dedicate my time to.
If I were to ask you “What is Raiding Dungeons?” what would most people say?
Looking at some of the replies from a few Guild Wars 2discussions, it seem people would answer the above question with things like
*Hard difficulty PvE
*Something that is there only to hold Subs
*Gear Treadmill aka gear progression
*Show off ego aka elitist epeen
*Larger grouped PvE than Party dungeons
*Major Wipe failures
*Tedious and boring
*WoW like- aka WoW cloning
But from the small list above, the only true meaning of raiding is “Larger grouped PvE than Party dungeons”. The rest of those from the list above only come in how developers design the raid dungeon, which means the rest of it vary from person to person.
But most of the arguments against raiding don’t make sense.
Who says Raiding has to be harder than normal party dungeons? Just because its been that way in previous MMO, doesn’t mean that Raid Dungeon has to be the hardest form of PvE.
This doesn’t make sense, because F2P games also have this. Subs have nothing to do with it.
Gear progression seems to apply to everything. Not just Raid Dungeons. What makes Party dungeons different from this?
This applies to anything now days. Not just raiding.
This I agree on.
Well doesn’t this apply to anything as well? Wipe in Party dungeons and PvP as well. Not just a Raiding kind of trend.
Subjective, but also apply to everything. I find Party dungeons to be tedious and boring, compared to raiding.
Not sure how Raiding can be linked to cloning WoW, when games older than WoW also had it… but I guess this is a modern day complaint about everything…
I personally don’t like Party dungeons in MMO. I like what Instances added to the experience in games. I especially like larger scale instances over the smaller scaled instances. In WoW I enjoyed AV 40 vs 40 more than WSG 10 vs 10 (?). This also applies to console gaming. I enjoy the 64 (32 vs 32) games more so than the 16 (8 vs 8) games.
I would like to see future MMO, move more away from tradional 5 man party dungeons, and into a new larger scale concept, for both the more hardcore MMO gamers as well as the not so hardcore MMO gamers. I enjoy raiding, but I havnt Raided since early WoTLK WoW (whatever year that was). Its not because I hated it, but more because I couldn’t raid without being in a Raiding guild, since they were more harder, people tend to like to play with people that they can coordinate with easier. Aka Guild members.
Also Endgame progression had many different types in modern themepark MMO.
*Raiding PvE Endgame
*Party Dungeon PvE Endgame
*Solo endgame
*PvP endgame
*Crafting endgame
Each of these has its own form of progression. But the problem is that Raiding endgame is usually linked together with Party Dungeon progression. If I enjoy PvP, I can jump into the PvP and start Progressing. But if I enjoy Raiding, I can’t just jump into Raiding and start progressing without unlocking something from the Party Dungeons. Now if I hate Party dungeons, than that means no raiding for me, no matter how much I may like it. I recently came back to WoW after the SoR promotion, to try out the new LFR tool. But since I quit in early CATA, and only played PvP when I did play, I had no decent PvE party dungeon gear to queue into LFR tool. So I couldn’t even raid even with this tool in place, without going into Party dungeons first.
I liked your little numbers on nax and illidan. Great stuff. Not saying that you are full of lies but how about some numbers on how many people went into any raid in van/tbc. You are basically taking a bell curve, pointing at the top few percent and saying that those who are in the middle are not in the top percentage. Then you get on your high horse and tell us whatever you think and thinking it's special. It really isn't.
What are you going to do next, look at a clock, set it's 1:30 and proclaim that every minute in the rest of the day is 1:30? You are cherry picking data to make your little points. People will see through what you are trying to do.
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it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
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playing an MMORPG?"
It doesn't take ANYTHING away from the "normal" and "hard" mode raids designed for guilds and the hardcore who have the time for the prep and everything else.
And you know what? They get better gear for their extra efforts.
It really is a picture perfect way to do raiding, if you are going to be doing "traditional" raiding at all in your MMO.
It's 3-tier raiding or nothing IMO from here on out.
Not to be petty, but "traditional" raiding also means doing quests for attunements or special things that help you (unlimited water for runes in mc anyone?), crafting resist gear for tough fights and prearing consumables to aid you.
What you are really getting in modern wow is at best the same thing you would get in the past, only with half of the content and half the things to do, where those people using the raid finder now would struggle trough the game world and dungeons and eventually get to do the completely different raids (no raider just fell from the sky skilled), they now get the same raids, just harder.
Where you see a move forward i see a circle at best.
Then they also complain that high end raiding takes too much time.
People complain that they cant find an MMO they can enjoy for years.
Then they also complain they dont want to be forced to play for more than a couple hours a day.
People complain that modern MMOs are too "single player".
Then they also complain that raiding takes too many people working together.
No wonder modern MMOs are a mess, the player base have no idea what they want.
No, the "player base" is not a single entity. It's made up of millions of individuals, many of whom want very different things.
This is the problem with game developers. They see the "player base" as one entity, so they try to balance one game for everybody. Thats why the industry is a mess. They need to break up the focus and make several different games for different groups within the player base. Imagine how much money they could make if they actually made everyone quasi-happy.
Raiding is time consuming, and it sucks for people who cannot commit to a dedicated raid schedule. That's not even considering the time most guilds require you to study the fight mechanics of all the overtuned and gimmicky "100% guaranteed wipe if you haven't watched a youtube video 5 times" boss fights of modern MMORPGs. Of course, what makes people think GW2's much vaunted explorable dungeons will be any less time consuming than your average WoW raid? After all, they're supposed to be mindbendingly difficult, so I really see this as GW2's answer to raid content.
If the developers are telling the truth, there's little to believe these dungeons will be puggable and anyone a good guild and/or anyone without the time to dedicate to a committed in-game schedule is going to be screwed out of a huge portion of the game's content. Even if one completes a dungeon with a PUG, it will more than likely take hours to finish and the players will most likely wipe multiple times before they finish, so again, I fail to see how they will be much different than raids. I do hope I am wrong.
Originally posted by FrostWyrm Originally posted by Xiaoki Comments are very weird.
People complain that MMOs are too easy. Then they also complain that high end raiding takes too much time.
People complain that they cant find an MMO they can enjoy for years. Then they also complain they dont want to be forced to play for more than a couple hours a day.
People complain that modern MMOs are too "single player". Then they also complain that raiding takes too many people working together.
No wonder modern MMOs are a mess, the player base have no idea what they want.
No, the "player base" is not a single entity. It's made up of millions of individuals, many of whom want very different things. This is the problem with game developers. They see the "player base" as one entity, so they try to balance one game for everybody. Thats why the industry is a mess. They need to break up the focus and make several different games for different groups within the player base. Imagine how much money they could make if they actually made everyone quasi-happy. Im seeing comments from people that contradict what they've said in other topics.
But then people have been contradicting themselves a lot lately.
Any PvE activity which requires more than 5 or 6 people to actively coordinate with each other doesn't interest me. I don't want to have to put up with the bullsh-t.
Any MMO which requires me to accept another player as my Lord and Master and put up with abuse from him if I want to continue to progress is going to either never get my money to begin with or is going to lose my subscription the moment I see that sort of crap going on.
Now this doesn't mean I don't want to have lots of other people sharing the same virtual world, I just don't want to have to form up in groups of 10, 20, 30, 40 or more in order to progress. Five or Six people is fine, thanks. I prefer to matter and not just be another face in the crowd.
While I kind of agree with what you're saying, it sounds more like you just have a problem with authority than anything else. I've never been a huge raiding fan myself, but I did Dynamis runs back in FFXI.
There was no "abuse" from the linkshell leader. Yes, commands were given, but she wasn't a d-bag about them, nor was anyone ever removed from the group unless they just really screwed up multiple times and refused to even try to follow orders, or they went afk for the bulk of the trip.
As far as not being "another face in the crowd", even in a raid, if you do well, you stand out. If not, you're forgotten. An MMORPG is not really the type of game to play if you dont want to be another face in the crowd. With hundreds, sometimes thousands, of players all playing the same game, no matter how hard they try, they cant make every character the hero, because if everyone's a hero, then "hero" just becomes the status quo.
Well, yeah, part of my issue is a problem with authority. Not in general life so much but another player having that much power over me is a deal breaker. The thing was, back in EQ, that leaders of successfull raid guilds really did have a lot of power over the guild members and many (most?) did let it go to their heads and acted like jerks.
They had power because: 1-- raiding was the only way to progress at the high end; 2-- progressing through raiding was dependant on being in a successfull raiding guild, and 3-- being in a successfull raiding guild was entirely dependant on the whim of the leader of that guild.
So if the leader of your raiding guild mouthed off to you in the most obnoxious way you either put up with it or got kicked from the guild which was basically game over for you unless and untill you joined another raiding guild and the leader of the next guild would almost certainly be just as mouthy and obnoxious as the leader of the guild you just got kicked out of.
As for the "face in the crowd" thing I was talking more about specific situations rather than in terms of the overall game. I would never expect to stand out from the entire playerbase of a game. What I meant was that in a small group of five or six people I represent one fifith or one sixth of the effort. In a small group everyone can give their two cents of input and opinions. In general you feel like you matter.
In a crowd of sixty or more people such as the raids in EQ back in the day you, as an individual, were almost irrelevant unless you were playing a very key role such as main tank or puller. You didn't get to give any input in what was done and would likely have been threatened with expulsion from the guild if you even dared to try. In general you felt like you didn't matter at all.
I've raided three or four times in EverQuest II. The only thing I looted was an angry wife.
I enjoyed the raiding experience. However, stacking DKP in order to get a few pieces of gear is something I don't have time for. I have a family. Raiding takes hours. It's extremely rare that I have a few solid hours without interruption.
I'm not one of those guys who simply wants to earn the best loot through some bs instanced pvp process or solo quest. However, I do think they need to design a way so that weekend raiders can get a little something.
Be very careful. Most wives have a super human power similar to The Hulk where the angrier they get, the stronger they get.
The problem with how the "community" views raiding is that they generally leap to a lot of conclusions from a very little data.
Oop, you got me to do it too.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I was in the top horde raiding guild on my server on release. I quit teh game after letting it take up so much of my free time.
Now, I just want to be able to log on and run instances and sometimes raids without going by a schedule or depending on a guild. Apparently WOW added pug raids but I haven't bothered returning to check it out. I didn't like the fact that it was only for the newest raid.
I've decided I'd much rather just have fun with other types of games than punish myself in pugs.
Raiding is synonmous with gear grind, that's the big problem. I don't know of a raid system that doesnt work off of this. So raiding gets a bad rap.
My other problem with raids is that, outside of the actual monsters being just bumpe up to crazy levels, there's no real reason for 15 people to be going int othis one area. It also takes a crap load of time because you ahve more people and thus more content.
My solution for the new age of raiding would be not bunching eveyrone up together. Instead have several teams designated and make the raid (I hate calling it that cause the name by now is polluted) about needing to divide into various teams to solve tasks within this dungeon. Truly make it about team work as opposed to a regimen order of who is going to tank the main, who is going to take the subs who is going to attack etc. Instead, have the teams needing to do specific things in different areas at one time or unlocking various features in a sequential order. And take out the gear grind aspect.
Having raids that require splitting up, pretty much 3 groups doing 3 dungeons, speeds up the time but doesnt take anything away from the difficulty. You can design bosses where each ones hp regenerates or is altered based on what happens or is happening in the other dungeons. You can have traps set up in one place that effect another or spread mob getting stronger with every bit of damage a boss does somewhere else. It just becomes more than this regiman army moving through and only needing to prepare for the next boss.
With the non role system of GW, this would work great. A traditional raid system though, just wouldn't make it.
There is no doubt in my mind I could execute any raid in any MMO. But I actively hate them. They suck. The gameplay is stupid on so many levels and they are often really boring too.
The only "raids" I have liked are the ones in Global Agenda, but those are not 20 people on one boss. You are fighting off waves and waves of mobs in a protracted conflict. That is fine. 10,20,30,40 or more people all on one boss for 10 minutes is crap. Slogging through trash mobs is crap.
Comments
That is too much when I have a family. 2 hrs is ok. 3 is stretching it. 4 .. never. And it is not just the time spent in the raid dungeon, there is also some prep .. waiting for people to show up and what-not.
WOW does solve that problem by breaking up 8 bosses fight into two parts, and offering LFR.
I am a raider in EQ and i have raided alot in wow but one of the reasons i play EQ and not wow is cause wow raids are gank fests with litle to no organization not like eq . In EQ when you raid if you all dont pull together as a team the raid will fail very fast and the guy that mesed up gets booted and thats the end of his raiding untill he can learn how to play as a team.
But saying that i do belive that all raids should be token rewards that you can spend on what ever you need.
DKP system for loot is a outdated way to get loot as most people cant raid 4 or 5 days a week to get the DKP to go in on anything good . If it was a token system then at least you wouldnt have to compete against the guy who can raid 5 days a week .
While I kind of agree with what you're saying, it sounds more like you just have a problem with authority than anything else. I've never been a huge raiding fan myself, but I did Dynamis runs back in FFXI.
There was no "abuse" from the linkshell leader. Yes, commands were given, but she wasn't a d-bag about them, nor was anyone ever removed from the group unless they just really screwed up multiple times and refused to even try to follow orders, or they went afk for the bulk of the trip.
As far as not being "another face in the crowd", even in a raid, if you do well, you stand out. If not, you're forgotten. An MMORPG is not really the type of game to play if you dont want to be another face in the crowd. With hundreds, sometimes thousands, of players all playing the same game, no matter how hard they try, they cant make every character the hero, because if everyone's a hero, then "hero" just becomes the status quo.
And if everyone's a trophy rack, trophies don't have any value at all.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
When i always feel the need to raid I usually only make it a week or so before i quit. Not because it is hard but because of the horribel grind and time it takes to do it.
Make a game that has very hard group based pve without a horrible stupid level and gear grind to do that content.
It seems that the new trend is to make easier versions of the instants. I m sorry but i want my raids hard I just dont want to spend the time grinding and waiting.
Playing: PO, EVE
Waiting for: WoD
Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
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There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
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What kind of a gem of a reply do we have here? A straight-faced post that declares a 4 hour block of reserved time, twice a week, has little to no impact on someone's life/social life.
This is my new favorite post on MMORPG.
It's like.. an innocent masterpiece that highlights the contrasting realities between all kinds of players. A genuine confusion from the perspective of one side of the coin, wondering how such a seemingly simple thing could be a detriment to one's social life. The "simplicity" of 4 hours in one night, doing it twice in a week, like shaking salt and pepper on your evening meal, with no concept fathomed that another person can't turn their responsibilities off for 4 hour chunks without destroying their entire lives.
A 4 hour block of time suddenly becomes "litte to no impact on one's social life" vs the destruction of one's actual life, when looked at from both sides. The beauty of this reply is the poster's authenticity in being unaware of the other possibilities. Whether this ignorance is due to inexperience or young age or just an adopted social position over the years is not important, nor whether the view is right or wrong. I propose that the knowledge that was shared here about a human being's capacity to only relate to what they know, is priceless.
+1
there is a HUGE difference between browsing and chatting on these forums during my lunch break at work and SPENDING 4 HOURS STRAIGHT on a game. I have things to do...you know dishes, laundry, fixing car, making dinner etc etc. I dont have my mommy to do that for me when im raiding for 4 HOURS STRAIGHT.
Playing: PO, EVE
Waiting for: WoD
Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
Browsing is not the same because a lot of the time people browse on the go on their mobile devices when they have nothing better to do. Also you can always stop browsing right away whereas once you start a 4-hour raid you have to be there pretty much throughout the whole thing without going afk.
Hell, I don't spend 8 hours a week for all my browsing combined let alone this site alone. I often don't spend 8 hours gaming a week too. It really depends.
But if I play a game like Skyrim I can always stop whereas raids force you to sit in front of your computer for 4 hours. What if something pops up? You just ignore it?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Not sure where you're going with this comment, I didn't mention anything about trophies.
but you are kinda showing my point. I explain:
1. But who said Raids need to give the best loot? it may be done that way in other games, but thats not what Raid is. In WoW, Arenas give the best PvP gear. that doesnt mean Arenas in every MMO need to give best PvP gear, right?
2. this doesnt make sense. Asian gamers play the same kind of MMO, but on a F2P model. Raids have nothing to do with the payment model. again, both F2P and P2P MMO have it. cash shop or no cash shop.Raids have nothing to do with extending a sub. Having Fun, will do that job good enough to keep subs. I play Rift, yet I dont do Raid dungeons, even though I would like to. But it keeps subs. Raiding has nothing to do with it, as people seem to think.
3. but everything is a trademill in some way. Nothing in MMO of modern tech allows for gameplay to be excluded from repetition. 5 man dungeons in a game like WoW has Gear progression just like Raid dungeons in that game. Why make Gear Trademill exclusive to only Raiding, when gear is rewarded everywhere in such a game? GW2 suppose to remove the gear grind from its 5 man dungeons, so why couldnt it also remove gear grind from a larger scale dungeon?
4. this is found everywhere in games, including 5 man dungeons. this isnt a Raider only thing. Its a player's attitude thing only. again, elitist can be found in all forms of gameplay. why exclusive this title to Raids?
5. well we agree on this.
6. Well that happens when you lose at anything. want to also make PvP only 1v1 so you dont hurt other people's feelings on a team PvP game as well? cant help that. not everybody is going to Win 24/7. Losing is part of the motivation to win and the learning process.
7. again this apply to everything. Grind can be in PvP, Soloing, or even Party Dungeons. this is not something that is exclusive to Raiding. Things get boring at times for different things. I get bored of party dungeons and any small scale multiplayer, including FPS games that have small scale. it bores me. but this is subjective to me view of what is boring or not. I am just saying, the grind is everywhere, not just from Raiding.
8. well WoW has 3 talent trees per class. does that mean all future MMO have to also have 3 talent trees per class just because WoW is popular? this doesnt justify anything. WoW is popular,and uses 5 player as the party dungeon size, does this mean all MMORPG with party dungeons need to be 5 man? the WoW way, isnt the ONLY way. it works, but not the ONLY way.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments are very weird.
People complain that MMOs are too easy.
Then they also complain that high end raiding takes too much time.
People complain that they cant find an MMO they can enjoy for years.
Then they also complain they dont want to be forced to play for more than a couple hours a day.
People complain that modern MMOs are too "single player".
Then they also complain that raiding takes too many people working together.
No wonder modern MMOs are a mess, the player base have no idea what they want.
That is obviously NOT true. If everyone has a trophy but you, it is a sign that you are behind even the average. And people place a value in at least not to be below average.
I think the concept of raiding took a major leap forward with WoW's introduction of the Raid Finder utility and difficulty setting.
Don't have tons of time to prep/prepare?
Doesn't matter.
Don't have 9-24 friends online?
Doesn't matter.
Don't have the best reflexes or timing?
Doesn't matter.
It's easy mode, it's PUG friendly, and you STILL get gear upgrades over what you can get via small group dungeons.
It's hot join, your "progress" is saved per boss so you can hop in/out as you need to.
And the best part?
It doesn't take ANYTHING away from the "normal" and "hard" mode raids designed for guilds and the hardcore who have the time for the prep and everything else.
And you know what? They get better gear for their extra efforts.
It really is a picture perfect way to do raiding, if you are going to be doing "traditional" raiding at all in your MMO.
It's 3-tier raiding or nothing IMO from here on out.
I liked your little numbers on nax and illidan. Great stuff. Not saying that you are full of lies but how about some numbers on how many people went into any raid in van/tbc. You are basically taking a bell curve, pointing at the top few percent and saying that those who are in the middle are not in the top percentage. Then you get on your high horse and tell us whatever you think and thinking it's special. It really isn't.
What are you going to do next, look at a clock, set it's 1:30 and proclaim that every minute in the rest of the day is 1:30? You are cherry picking data to make your little points. People will see through what you are trying to do.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Not to be petty, but "traditional" raiding also means doing quests for attunements or special things that help you (unlimited water for runes in mc anyone?), crafting resist gear for tough fights and prearing consumables to aid you.
What you are really getting in modern wow is at best the same thing you would get in the past, only with half of the content and half the things to do, where those people using the raid finder now would struggle trough the game world and dungeons and eventually get to do the completely different raids (no raider just fell from the sky skilled), they now get the same raids, just harder.
Where you see a move forward i see a circle at best.
Flame on!
No, the "player base" is not a single entity. It's made up of millions of individuals, many of whom want very different things.
This is the problem with game developers. They see the "player base" as one entity, so they try to balance one game for everybody. Thats why the industry is a mess. They need to break up the focus and make several different games for different groups within the player base. Imagine how much money they could make if they actually made everyone quasi-happy.
Raiding is time consuming, and it sucks for people who cannot commit to a dedicated raid schedule. That's not even considering the time most guilds require you to study the fight mechanics of all the overtuned and gimmicky "100% guaranteed wipe if you haven't watched a youtube video 5 times" boss fights of modern MMORPGs. Of course, what makes people think GW2's much vaunted explorable dungeons will be any less time consuming than your average WoW raid? After all, they're supposed to be mindbendingly difficult, so I really see this as GW2's answer to raid content.
If the developers are telling the truth, there's little to believe these dungeons will be puggable and anyone a good guild and/or anyone without the time to dedicate to a committed in-game schedule is going to be screwed out of a huge portion of the game's content. Even if one completes a dungeon with a PUG, it will more than likely take hours to finish and the players will most likely wipe multiple times before they finish, so again, I fail to see how they will be much different than raids. I do hope I am wrong.
This is the problem with game developers. They see the "player base" as one entity, so they try to balance one game for everybody. Thats why the industry is a mess. They need to break up the focus and make several different games for different groups within the player base. Imagine how much money they could make if they actually made everyone quasi-happy.
Im seeing comments from people that contradict what they've said in other topics.
But then people have been contradicting themselves a lot lately.
Well, yeah, part of my issue is a problem with authority. Not in general life so much but another player having that much power over me is a deal breaker. The thing was, back in EQ, that leaders of successfull raid guilds really did have a lot of power over the guild members and many (most?) did let it go to their heads and acted like jerks.
They had power because: 1-- raiding was the only way to progress at the high end; 2-- progressing through raiding was dependant on being in a successfull raiding guild, and 3-- being in a successfull raiding guild was entirely dependant on the whim of the leader of that guild.
So if the leader of your raiding guild mouthed off to you in the most obnoxious way you either put up with it or got kicked from the guild which was basically game over for you unless and untill you joined another raiding guild and the leader of the next guild would almost certainly be just as mouthy and obnoxious as the leader of the guild you just got kicked out of.
As for the "face in the crowd" thing I was talking more about specific situations rather than in terms of the overall game. I would never expect to stand out from the entire playerbase of a game. What I meant was that in a small group of five or six people I represent one fifith or one sixth of the effort. In a small group everyone can give their two cents of input and opinions. In general you feel like you matter.
In a crowd of sixty or more people such as the raids in EQ back in the day you, as an individual, were almost irrelevant unless you were playing a very key role such as main tank or puller. You didn't get to give any input in what was done and would likely have been threatened with expulsion from the guild if you even dared to try. In general you felt like you didn't matter at all.
yeah, sure
The problem with how the "community" views raiding is that they generally leap to a lot of conclusions from a very little data.
Oop, you got me to do it too.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I was in the top horde raiding guild on my server on release. I quit teh game after letting it take up so much of my free time.
Now, I just want to be able to log on and run instances and sometimes raids without going by a schedule or depending on a guild. Apparently WOW added pug raids but I haven't bothered returning to check it out. I didn't like the fact that it was only for the newest raid.
I've decided I'd much rather just have fun with other types of games than punish myself in pugs.
Raiding is synonmous with gear grind, that's the big problem. I don't know of a raid system that doesnt work off of this. So raiding gets a bad rap.
My other problem with raids is that, outside of the actual monsters being just bumpe up to crazy levels, there's no real reason for 15 people to be going int othis one area. It also takes a crap load of time because you ahve more people and thus more content.
My solution for the new age of raiding would be not bunching eveyrone up together. Instead have several teams designated and make the raid (I hate calling it that cause the name by now is polluted) about needing to divide into various teams to solve tasks within this dungeon. Truly make it about team work as opposed to a regimen order of who is going to tank the main, who is going to take the subs who is going to attack etc. Instead, have the teams needing to do specific things in different areas at one time or unlocking various features in a sequential order. And take out the gear grind aspect.
Having raids that require splitting up, pretty much 3 groups doing 3 dungeons, speeds up the time but doesnt take anything away from the difficulty. You can design bosses where each ones hp regenerates or is altered based on what happens or is happening in the other dungeons. You can have traps set up in one place that effect another or spread mob getting stronger with every bit of damage a boss does somewhere else. It just becomes more than this regiman army moving through and only needing to prepare for the next boss.
With the non role system of GW, this would work great. A traditional raid system though, just wouldn't make it.
There is no doubt in my mind I could execute any raid in any MMO. But I actively hate them. They suck. The gameplay is stupid on so many levels and they are often really boring too.
The only "raids" I have liked are the ones in Global Agenda, but those are not 20 people on one boss. You are fighting off waves and waves of mobs in a protracted conflict. That is fine. 10,20,30,40 or more people all on one boss for 10 minutes is crap. Slogging through trash mobs is crap.